If it were your house...Panel Choice

[electricmanscott]

I always use Siemens, panels mostly because that is what my supplier provides.

I am starting a house Monday and am thinking of going with a different brand. Partly because of my troubles with Siemens made combo AFCIs. (Siemens, Murray & GE).

What would YOU use if it were your own house and money was not a factor in the decision?

Hitting the road to see The Red Sox beat down the Orioles in Baltimore, so I won't be reading 'till Monday. :grin:

[BryanMD]

Fenway South?

I like the SD for the visi trip breakers.
I like the CH for the panel lay out.

go Birds!

[mdshunk]

Pushmatic .

Lacking that option, it's Cutler-Hammer CH for me.

[dduffee260]

I like Federal Pacific, that way you never get called back for nuisance tripping on the breakers. Just make sure your insurance is up to date.

[brian john]

Square D, this may go back to the first contractor I worked with they were 100% SqD. I have been a SqD installer since then. Though on a job were we are adding a new panel I match what is existing when possible.

[MF Dagger]

Square D QO. I haven't had problems with Siemens at all. They have a nice layout. I hate CH's layout

[Bentworker]

I hate to say it but the big box home stores will special order you any Cutler Hammer product for about 30% less than you can get it from anyone else (and most likely they will order Square D for you too). I would use CH or Square D. I like the trip to trip position feature on the square D breakers, that being said I went with CH for my house. I got a 200A feed through meter main, a 42 pole sub with main, and a 18 pole sub with main for less than $460. I'll probably spend another $500 on breakers by the time I buy some AFCI's. I think CH and squareD have lifetime warrantees on their panels (but not on the BR series stuff).

If you have a chance you should just go out and buy a ream of paper, then print out the CH and SquareD catalogs. They are a huge help, and it is a lot easier to work with them when you can flip page to page instead of scrolling up and down endless pdf's on your computer. You can find all of the information online if you spend some time looking around.

[mdshunk]

I hate to say it but the big box home stores will special order you any Cutler Hammer product for about 30% less than you can get it from anyone else...
That depends on where you fall in your supply house's pricing matrix. Variable margins have been a fact of the electrical supply business for a very long time.

[Buck Parrish]

Cutler hammer covers can be ordered seperately.
You can get the type that will isolate your main from a generator breaker in the top two slots right or left.

I think some other brands have retro fits now.

[c2500]

I am a CH fan myself. That is what I installed in my house. The Ch's havea lifetime warranty. I have found the 200amp main with 42 breakers with bonus breakers (5 20's and a dp 30) far cheaper at Lowes than the supply houses locally.

c2500

[macmikeman]

If money is no object, then why not a bolt on Square-D panelboard? Just make sure to punch a few extra holes in the top and patch em for future add-ons if it gets flush mounted.

[mdshunk]

If money is no object, then why not a bolt on Square-D panelboard? Just make sure to punch a few extra holes in the top and patch em for future add-ons if it gets flush mounted.
I did in my own house, in '96. I have an NQOD, but I prefer the CH-CH for resi work.

[mtec]

I use cutler hammer. I know that the L&HD stores carry some panels cheaper I still buy from my suply house. $40 to $60 G's a year carrys some respect at a supply house. at the big store. the teeny bopper behind the desk dosen't care if you spent $500,000 last year "no receipt you must take a gift card for your return". I'm for top service not bottom dollar. My time is worth more than $20 a panel

[Buck Parrish]

I did in my own house, in '96. I have an NQOD, but I prefer the CH-CH for resi work.


Did you order the guts with the breakers already on the bar or did you just get lotrs of extras.

[mdshunk]

Did you order the guts with the breakers already on the bar or did you just get lotrs of extras.
How do you mean? It takes regular QO's or QOB's. I did neither. Both are truck stock. It happens to mostly have QOB's in it right now.

[Buck Parrish]

[QUOTE=mdshunk]How do you mean? It takes regular QO's or QOB's. I did neither. Both are truck stock. It happens to mostly have QOB's in it right now.[/QUOTE

Seems like we use to get them for big jobs with breakera already in them.
Bolted down, torqued

[roger]

It is my experience that NQOD panels with breakers installed can be bought cheaper as a negotiated package than buying the panelboard and breakers separately.

Back to the OP, I-Line for me and 15 amp breakers for my general lighting circuits. :D

Roger

[tonyou812]

If it were my house I would have to go with SDQO. But I use Siemens cause its a bit cheaper or unless the customer is wiling to pay for the upgrade.

[quogueelectric]

I always use Siemens, panels mostly because that is what my supplier provides.

I am starting a house Monday and am thinking of going with a different brand. Partly because of my troubles with Siemens made combo AFCIs. (Siemens, Murray & GE).

What would YOU use if it were your own house and money was not a factor in the decision?

Hitting the road to see The Red Sox beat down the Orioles in Baltimore, so I won't be reading 'till Monday. :grin: No brainer for me Sqare D QO for me both thermal AND magnetic trip dont think I ever seen one fail either in 35 yrs.

[sparky59]

i put sq d homeline panels in customer houses. when i built my house 16 years ago i put a ch-ch panel in it. i would probably put a sq d qo panel in my house today. i like the pretty color when a breaker trips.

[peter d]

Fuses.......

[mdshunk]

Fuses.......
Busman actually makes a fuse panel that would work pretty well in a house. Square D makes a popular QMB panelboard, which features fuseholders, if you really wanted to get wacky. It looks sorta like an MCC.

[Minuteman]

I've been using Cutler's BR since back when they were called Westinghouse or Challenger. I've never had a problem with 'em.

[brian john]

I have fused mains with MLO SqD panels.

[peter d]

Busman actually makes a fuse panel that would work pretty well in a house. Square D makes a popular QMB panelboard, which features fuseholders, if you really wanted to get wacky. It looks sorta like an MCC.

That sounds pretty pricey. In that case I'd have to go with a BR style panel and the box of assorted GE, Murray, Westinghouse and other junk that I have. ;) :D

[brian john]

Actually peter why not Zinsco?

[peter d]

Actually peter why not Zinsco?

Zinsco is non-existent in my area (southern New England). I have never encountered a single Zinsco breaker or panel. The only time I have ever heard of it being in existence here is in a particular plot of manufactured homes.

However, we do have plenty of FPE to go around.

[blueheels2]

For my house anything SquareD would be my first choice. 2nd would be GE. After that I wouldn't put anything else in. In a perfect world I would like a SquareD panel with the GE layout.

[brian john]

2nd would be GE

CH I would not use GE on a bet, in my house.

[quogueelectric]

CH I would not use GE on a bet, in my house.
Come on a million bucks?? And ill throw in a fluke ir thermometer just to check them.:grin:

[SiddMartin]

SQD QO, good quality

[quogueelectric]

We should post a poll of opinion of all the major mfgs of best to worst from our experience in descending order.

[mivey]

Square D QO for me.

[LarryFine]

CH I would not use GE on a bet, in my house. My house already had CH when I moved in, and I have no complaints.

I did opt for a four-space/eight-circuit GE panel with eight 1/2" breakers for my home-theater sub-panel, because the guts are mounted off-center enough for a contactor to fit inside. That kept me from having to build a power-switching box.

Here are pics of the panel and what's below it:
http://www.fineelectricco.com/Panel1.jpg http://www.fineelectricco.com/Panel2.jpg


The yellow RCA cord feeds one of the switched 12v outputs of the preamp/processor (which functions as main system on-off) to a 12v reed relay, which switches 120v to a 10a cube relay, both of which are in a plastic box inside the panel.

The cube relay controls a 4-pole, 25a contactor, which switches four of the 15a circuits. They supply (1) the switched electronics, (2) the 300w x 2 amp that powers the main speakers, (3) the 200w x 5 amp that powers the center, sides, and rears, and (4) the two 300w amps built into the main speakers, each on a 15" subwoofer.

There's an unswitched circuit that supplies the pre/pro, DVD player, the DTV TiVo, and other stuff that should have constant power, and another that provides power to the ceiling-mounted CRT projector. The last two circuits will one day power automated lighting and such.

[frenchelectrican]

As Far the breaker box for my home I used NQOD 20" wide tubs and they have dangbat good bussbar set up on that one.

But in my shop I used SqD NF series due I have 480/277 3Ø system in there allready.

For majorty of resdentail useage it pretty much split 50-50 between the SqD or Cutter-Hammer products ditto with commercal side as well.

GE breakers is bottom of my peferance list sorta like bottom of totom pole.

Semins is pretty good but not been useing their products for while but i can able get it pretty easy.

Merci,Marc

[Teaspoon]

I like Simmens they are a good panel for the money, when you consider the breakers that come with them when you buy a contractor or Value pack.
Square D QO is probably about the best panel on the market.99%of the panels I use are simmens.Haven't had any major issues with them
But no Homeline panels for me.

[ultramegabob]

If price were no option, I guess I would go with Square D bolt in, but QO is fine and I like Cutler Hammer also.

[220/221]

I have never been a big QO fan.

I have 3 houses.....well, two houses and a cabin.

One Siemans and 2 have CH BR's

I think Siemans, CH BR and Homeline are pretty much the same....but wait....I just remembered..... the new Seimans have copper bus, so I change my vote. Yay copper!

[Rampage_Rick]

SqD QO for me...
i like the pretty color when a breaker trips.I like to trip them by hand with a good whack just to see the pretty orange flags. If you really want to shine someone on, you can write messages in binary on the shelf at your supplier.

10100.1.1011.101.1101.11001.10111.1001.110.101.100 00.1100.101.1.10011.101
"take my wife please" in compressed ASCII

I've been using Cutler's BR since back when they were called Westinghouse or Challenger. I've never had a problem with 'em.Originally BRyant? The blue-handled tandems are the bane of my existance. All but the most recent years were flat-blade screwdriver only, and if you're just a bit off center you'll crack the casing off. The ones that had a pukey white casing are my least favorite of all.

[iwire]

The cube relay controls a 4-pole, 25a contactor, which switches four of the 15a circuits. They supply (1) the switched electronics, (2) the 300w x 2 amp that powers the main speakers, (3) the 200w x 5 amp that powers the center, sides, and rears, and (4) the two 300w amps built into the main speakers, each on a 15" subwoofer.

But does it go to 11? (http://spinaltapfan.com/atozed/TAP00160.HTM)


: "You see, most blokes will be playing at 10. You’re on 10, all the way up, all the way up...Where can you go from there? Nowhere. What we do, is if we need that extra push over the cliff...Eleven. One louder." DiBergi: "Why don’t you just make 10 louder and make 10 be the top number, and make that a little louder?" Nigel (after taking a moment to let this sink in): "These go to 11."

[hardworkingstiff]

Back to the OP, I-Line for me and 15 amp breakers for my general lighting circuits. :D

Roger

LOL, you go Roger. The OP did say money was no object.

[hardworkingstiff]

duplicat e

[LarryFine]

But does it go to 11? (http://spinaltapfan.com/atozed/TAP00160.HTM) Nope, it only goes up to +10db . . . from -96db. With 2200 watts continuous, who needs 11? :D

I'm actually suprised nobody took me to task for installing two relays and a contactor in a panel. 8-)



Open invite for anyone in, near, or visiting Richmond who wants to watch a movie or concert*: PM me.

Added: * Or just talk AV.

[iwire]

I'm actually suprised nobody took me to task for installing two relays and a contactor in a panel. 8-)

Sounds like a great place to me.

[peter d]

I'm actually suprised nobody took me to task for installing two relays and a contactor in a panel. 8-)

Ok, here you go then:

HOW DARE YOU!!! THE LISTING.....THE LISTING.......THE LAWYERS.........THE CHILDREN......THE ENDANGERED SPECIES!!!! .......etc etc


Is that better? :)

[LarryFine]

"Salvation lies within . . .

http://purgatorio1.com/wp-content/pics/repent1.jpg

. . . the NEC!"

[iwire]

Ok, here you go then:

HOW DARE YOU!!! THE LISTING.....THE LISTING.......THE LAWYERS.........THE CHILDREN......THE ENDANGERED SPECIES!!!! .......etc etc


Is that better? :)


I bet he did not even have an engineer approve it. :D

[LarryFine]

I bet he did not even have an engineer approve it. :DSure, I did. He said "Putting relays in a panel is okay?"

And I said "Thanks!"



"I shot the clerk?" ~ Rapph Machio as Bill Gambini in My cousin Vinny

[peter d]

I bet he did not even have an engineer approve it. :D

Yup, no drawings, no cut sheets, no submittals...I'll bet he didn't even have it inspected. :mad:

[LarryFine]

I'll bet he didn't even have it inspected. :mad:
Sure, I did. Three of my friends have seen it.

All three of them.

[roger]

Sure, I did. Three of my friends have seen it.

All three of them.

I for one don't believe it. (that you have three freinds):D

Roger

[LarryFine]

I for one don't believe it. (that you have three freinds):D
I do, too! You can ask him if you want.

[K8MHZ]

SQ D QO's for me.

The inspectors around here refer to GE's as 'arc welders'.

No CH's for me, either.

One of the inspectors in my area carries a knife with him that he managed to short a circuit out with. He was less than 20 feet from the 15A CH breaker feeding the receptacle and managed to burn 1/2 inch off the end of his knife and the breaker never tripped.

We were on a re-mod one day and I engaged a 15A CH breaker and the lights in the basement dimmed almost all the way out. I turned off the breaker and they came back on. After checking what I could see in the panel I asked the boss man to grab his amp clamp and check the conductor coming from the breaker for me. I turned it on, the lights dimmed out and he said '115.7'. I laughed and said 'Amps, not volts!'. He said 'That was amps!' We found a dead short in an outside light. The breaker set and held over 115 amps without tripping.

I saw an apprentice once let a #12 ground wire slip out of his hand and it hit the buss bar on a 200A SQ D Homeline panel. The sparks flew and the 200A main tripped almost instantaneously with only a little dot of burn mark on the buss and a tiny ball of melted copper on the wire. He managed to do it twice that day and scared the tar out of himself and the carpenters working near him.

Please note that I was an apprentice also at the time and he was a year ahead of me so I had no authority to tell him to get out of the panel.

I do pity his wife though. She had to do his laundry.

[JohnJ0906]

Sure, I did. Three of my friends have seen it.

All three of them.

Are these 2 of them?
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p66/JohnJ0906/funny%20stuff/2qualified.jpg

Did they help you? :D

[bradleyelectric]

I use cutler hammer. I know that the L&HD stores carry some panels cheaper I still buy from my suply house. $40 to $60 G's a year carrys some respect at a supply house. at the big store. the teeny bopper behind the desk dosen't care if you spent $500,000 last year "no receipt you must take a gift card for your return". I'm for top service not bottom dollar. My time is worth more than $20 a panel

Just as a note in case you buy hardware at the big boxes. You don't have to have your reciept with you if you tell them you put it on your commercial account and give them your card. They can just scan your card and find the purchase and credit your account. That's how I do it around here at least.

[bradleyelectric]

Sure, I did. Three of my friends have seen it.

All three of them.

Did they like it?

[wbalsam1]

Sq D QO's. :) IMHO, the absolute best there is for a residence.

[DesignerMan]

Sq D QO's. :) IMHO, the absolute best there is for a residence.

I agree...SD QO is my preference also...

[busman]

Busman actually makes a fuse panel that would work pretty well in a house. Square D makes a popular QMB panelboard, which features fuseholders, if you really wanted to get wacky. It looks sorta like an MCC.

When did I start making panels? I thought it was Cooper Bussmann?:)

[hey_poolboy]

My house and garage have only QO!

I would possibly do a CHBR, but that would be a stretch.

[BackInTheHabit]

Federal Pacific Stabloc:D

NO! Just Kidding. Square D QO All The Way.8-)

[LarryFine]

I hear that SqD's Homeline have the same guts as the QO's, and likewise C-H's BR line and the CH-CH's.

In fact, I heard it here.

[mdshunk]

I hear that SqD's Homeline have the same guts as the QO's, and likewise C-H's BR line and the CH-CH's.

In fact, I heard it here.
I drilled some apart some time back. It certainly appears to be true to my eye. The HOM and BR breaker-to-bus connection is inferior to their QO and CH counterparts, without a doubt. That's my whole beef with some panels. I could care less what's on the inside. I want a rock-solid breaker to bus connection. That's why I liked PushMatic so much. I put 1/2 size GE's at the absolute bottom of the barrel in that regard.

[guitarchris]

I drilled some apart some time back. It certainly appears to be true to my eye. The HOM and BR breaker-to-bus connection is inferior to their QO and CH counterparts, without a doubt. That's my whole beef with some panels. I could care less what's on the inside. I want a rock-solid breaker to bus connection. That's why I liked PushMatic so much. I put 1/2 size GE's at the absolute bottom of the barrel in that regard.

amen brother! I'm CH all the way. I don't care for SQD's use of plastic parts in the panel. ITE stye stab in breakers (which BR and HOM are) keep us busy with service changes.

[electricmanscott]

QO it is then!

[Greg Swartz]

I like Federal Pacific, that way you never get called back for nuisance tripping on the breakers. Just make sure your insurance is up to date.

Awesome... I'll just wait a year after you install them, and then I'll sell them another panel telling them it's a fire hazard... you can keep me busy!

Thanks :D

[Greg Swartz]

I think some other brands have retro fits now.
Cutler Hammer has a nice retrofit series that accomodate the FPE panels. They cost more, but save time...

And yes, it does seem that Cutler Hammer panels cost less at the Blue store than it does at my supply house... I've only done $20k business with them this year, and that probably doesn't enable me to have ANY cut...

[Greg Swartz]

QO all the way! (Of course, it's what I have in the house now!)
Commercial grade breaker in a residential panel... easy trip identifier... just a good breaker that has been around for 30 years, and is still being installed to this day.

[peter d]

QO it is then!

Not for me, I changed my mind again. I prefer General Switch, Trumbull, Wadsworth, Colt, Challenger, Bryant, Frank Adams, and Sq D's Trilliant line.

[C3PO]

I also vote Square D QO

[wireguru]

i vote for those plastic GE jobs they were selling in the early 1990s

[LarryFine]

I prefer General Switch, Trumbull, Wadsworth, Colt, Challenger, Bryant, Frank Adams, and Sq D's Trilliant line.
Name-dropper!

[SWP54]

You need to check out the features and base it on you preferences. Make sure they have copper busses. And make sure you have plenty of spaces. The two I think are best are Cutler Hammer, and Square D's QO. Don't get Square D's Homeline. Square D is made in Mexico now. I'm not sure if they produce anything in the U.S. now, at least for residential. And the last I heard, Cutler Hammer is still made in the U.S. Go to their web sites and check out their features. Cutler Hammer has a real nice web site. Check out their "Learning 101 Tutorial."

[r_merc]

I have Installed SQ D, Siemens, and GE. and I install mostly GE so I seem to be in the minority here. Never had any call backs or reports of failures. I like the Copper bus and the design features of the panel itself. I just dont like how the SQD and Siemens panels are arranged. Definately not a fan of CH BR & Homeline.

[e57]

CHBO, or QOB - do I have one now - no.... Still plug ins untill I have money and time - who knows when that'll happen at the same time.... :roll:

[electricalperson]

i would pick square d QO for my house

[frank_n]

I just put in Square D QO in my parents house last week. When I do a quote, I give a price for Cutler Hammer BR, then an upgrade price for Square D QO. I market QO as the Cadillac of panels. Most customers, go for the upgrade.

I work for a GC who insists on the Homeline panels. He likes the Square D name (without the QO price) and likes the fact that you can get breakers at the Home Depot.

I can buy Cutler Hammer BR panels cheaper from my supplier than I can buy Homeline at the HD. My Square D supply is nowhere near HD prices.

In my opinion, the breakers in the Homeline panels fit better than the BR breakers. The BR panels are about $25 less than a Homeline panel and I prefer to shop at my supplier than the Home Depot.

I believe all Homeline Panels are aluminum bus, but some BR panels are copper bus. On my next service, I might price Cutler Hammer CH because they are all copper bus and less expensive than QO.

[ItsHot]

1-Square D (without counterfit breakers!)..2- Cutler Hammer...3- GE... 4-Siemens

[LarryFine]

1-Square D (without counterfit breakers!)..2- Cutler Hammer...3- GE... 4-Siemens
So what's your preference for counterfeit breakers?

[ItsHot]

So what's your preference for counterfeit breakers? Larry I will get back to you on this one, I am still thinking!:grin: :D

[brantmacga]

my house had a CH-BR panel. I changed it to Sqd. QO panel. I've also installed the new combo afci cb's on all my lighting and gp recep circuits.


when i quote a residential job, its coming w/ homeline equipment. customer has the option to upgrade to QO. I've worked w/ seimens panels and thought they had a decent setup. I despise CH equipment. I don't know why, I just plain don't like it. All that brown looks like a big doo doo box.

[StreamlineGT]

I have Siemens P1 Bolt in panelboards in my house, 4 of them to be exact. Three 42 circuit and one 30 circuit.

[hillbilly1]

I did in my own house, in '96. I have an NQOD, but I prefer the CH-CH for resi work.
Ditto, I have a single phase QOD in my house also, the SD has a fast reaction time on short circuits, as do the CH-CH (of course not the BR) but the flag on the QO is a bonus. The Federal Pacifics are great for Mcgivver type welding.

[peter d]

I have Siemens P1 Bolt in panelboards in my house, 4 of them to be exact. Three 42 circuit and one 30 circuit.

I really can't understand why anyone would have a setup like that in their homes, other than to say to the neighbors "Wait until you see what I have in my basement!"

I'm pretty content with the 100 amp Homeline panel that I paid $50 for. :cool: My next move is to rip that out and replace it with fusible knife switches. :D

[electricmanscott]

I really can't understand why anyone would have a setup like that in their homes, other than to say to the neighbors "Wait until you see what I have in my basement!"




And then neighbor looks at it and says "yeah so???"

I don't get it either.

[peter d]

And then neighbor looks at it and says "yeah so???"

Exactly...

[StreamlineGT]

Well alrighty then..... :(

[76nemo]

And then neighbor looks at it and says "yeah so???"

I don't get it either.

I get that I am sure it was done right, that's all I care about:wink:

[CopperTone]

Money no object -

1st choice - siemans bolt on panel
2nd choice - Sq D QO
3rd choice - siemans regular stab in breakers

siemans are made out of copper now and the neutral and ground bars have the screws backed out all the way and have the box head for easier and faster tightening.

since money is an opject on jobs - residential - almost always go with choice 3 - but murray is all over the place here as well.

[TOOL_5150]

My house already had CH when I moved in, and I have no complaints.

I did opt for a four-space/eight-circuit GE panel with eight 1/2" breakers for my home-theater sub-panel, because the guts are mounted off-center enough for a contactor to fit inside. That kept me from having to build a power-switching box.

Here are pics of the panel and what's below it:
http://www.fineelectricco.com/Panel1.jpg http://www.fineelectricco.com/Panel2.jpg


The yellow RCA cord feeds one of the switched 12v outputs of the preamp/processor (which functions as main system on-off) to a 12v reed relay, which switches 120v to a 10a cube relay, both of which are in a plastic box inside the panel.

The cube relay controls a 4-pole, 25a contactor, which switches four of the 15a circuits. They supply (1) the switched electronics, (2) the 300w x 2 amp that powers the main speakers, (3) the 200w x 5 amp that powers the center, sides, and rears, and (4) the two 300w amps built into the main speakers, each on a 15" subwoofer.

There's an unswitched circuit that supplies the pre/pro, DVD player, the DTV TiVo, and other stuff that should have constant power, and another that provides power to the ceiling-mounted CRT projector. The last two circuits will one day power automated lighting and such.

Larry, You actually have time to do stuff to your own house? Do you have any free time ever?:D

~Matt