Well that was depre$$ing

[electricmanscott]

Talking to a local EC yesterday morning about business stuff. Of course we went down the "what do you charge" road......"$65.00 an hour" was his reply. This is in Massacusetts not some rural far off land where that may actually be considered good money.

I almost barfed. He is one of the good guys, does good work, has good employees, NOT a butcher etc. What was more troubling was when he went on naming some other guys and what they are charging...even less than him.

His rationale was that the builders he works for will not pay more and if he tries to get they will just use the other guys. Sure that is logical. My answer is find better builders.

It is hard enough trying to convince customers to value us and what we do, trying to convince us seems to be impossible.

[shmuckman]

Talking to a local EC yesterday morning about business stuff. Of course we went down the "what do you charge" road......"$65.00 an hour" was his reply. This is in Massacusetts not some rural far off land where that may actually be considered good money.

I almost barfed. He is one of the good guys, does good work, has good employees, NOT a butcher etc. What was more troubling was when he went on naming some other guys and what they are charging...even less than him.

His rationale was that the builders he works for will not pay more and if he tries to get they will just use the other guys. Sure that is logical. My answer is find better builders.

It is hard enough trying to convince customers to value us and what we do, trying to convince us seems to be impossible.
sounds like here in md. our boss cut the price of a 55 and older community by 1700.00. when i said how does that leave us? his reply was he was going to use our latino sub-contractors to help off-set the profit issue. huh? where does that leave me? or my co- workers? do we start saying please cut our pay to keep us employed?

[peter d]

Thanks for making me want to barf too, Scott.

[JohnJ0906]

sounds like here in md. our boss cut the price of a 55 and older community by 1700.00. when i said how does that leave us? his reply was he was going to use our latino sub-contractors to help off-set the profit issue. huh? where does that leave me? or my co- workers? do we start saying please cut our pay to keep us employed?

Why I decided to leave new residential.

[CopperTone]

I'm in massachusetts and I charge $75/hr for a lic. guy and $120/hr for a lic. guy and an apprentice. I want to got to $125 for the 2 guys with gas prices and all - plus I think it would be fine. I lose work all the time for cheaper guys - how can I charge more? I'd love to but I also have to land some work.
The plumbers in my area - MetroWest, MA - they all talk through the supply house of their rates - they all stick together on what to charge and when someone gets multiple prices they come in within $100 or $200 of each other. And I'm talking for a $5000 - $10000 job.

I'd love to hear from all the guys here from Massachusetts (and what part of Mass. and what they charge) I'm not suggesting price fixing - that would be illegal - just sharing of information thats all.

[ItsHot]

Thanks for making me want to barf too, Scott.
Me too! It is official! Guys "cutting grass" now make more than ECs! Why can't we think like plumbers?:-?

[peter d]

I'm in massachusetts and I charge $75/hr for a lic. guy and $120/hr for a lic. guy and an apprentice. I want to got to $125 for the 2 guys with gas prices and all - plus I think it would be fine.

That sounds awfully low for your location considering greater Boston is one of the most expensive places in the nation to live.

[emahler]

And I get chastized for calling us bass ackwards simpletons.

[peter d]

sounds like here in md. our boss cut the price of a 55 and older community by 1700.00. when i said how does that leave us? his reply was he was going to use our latino sub-contractors to help off-set the profit issue. huh? where does that leave me? or my co- workers? do we start saying please cut our pay to keep us employed?

That's a very good example of the "race to the bottom."

[iwire]

And I get chastized for calling us bass ackwards simpletons.

Yes and I will not stop giving you a hard time about it.


From the forum rules
You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive,

[emahler]

Yes and I will not stop giving you a hard time about it.


From the forum rules

In this case defamatory is a matter of opinion.

But based on the facts and experiences of this thread it is not inaccurate, knowingly false or abusive.

It's a general, yet factually correct, about the state of industry. And I'll continue saying it whether you want to see it or not.

And when the facts start to run contrary to that statement, I'll revisit it

[iwire]

In this case defamatory is a matter of opinion.

And the in the opinion of the AHJ is it's defamatory.

Nuff said.

[emahler]

And the in the opinion of the AHJ is it's defamatory.

Nuff said.

Well played:D

But we are gonna appeal to the board:D

[iwire]

But we are gonna appeal to the board:D

I would not expect any less. :grin:

[cschmid]

alright a clash of champions..is this going to be on pay per view and or in a cage...

[hardworkingstiff]

It's a free market society. In weak economic times, it gets worse. Buckle up gents, we are just getting started.

[emahler]

It's a free market society. In weak economic times, it gets worse. Buckle up gents, we are just getting started.

I don't think we are just getting started. I think we may be on the way up.

[mivey]

alright a clash of champions..is this going to be on pay per view and or in a cage...Well, we need a picture of emahler for the billboard, we already have iwire's:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=874418&postcount=24

[Minuteman]

I'm in massachusetts and I charge $75/hr for a lic. guy and $120/hr for a lic. guy and an apprentice.
I'm in OKC and I charge $75 for a journeyman and $112.5 for a jw & a helper. We are very busy, I hired 2 guys this month.

[quogueelectric]

I think we need a subject section that is called OCTAGON RING. it is no holds barred only no eye gouging where members can be nasty as they want .

[CopperTone]

why not just stick to the topic and leave the name calling to your children?
I love it when guys here want to tell everybody how they are running their business incorrectly yet not a lot of guys here will lay out their numbers of what they charge.
There should be a reply post from everyone on this board with where they are from and their rates - that would be the most helpful thing anyone here could do. Even if everone here charged the same in their same area - there will always be someone cheaper - I'm not sure you can do anything about that - except keep trying to educate people that need it.

Or just continue with silly responses and don't help anyone at all.

We do a lot of public bidding using the prevailing wages set by the state, at least you know what the other guy has to pay his guys by law, and you can figure your price off of that. (overhead, office expenses, profit, materials, markup, etc). Although competitive bidding can drive you crazy too.

[emahler]

Copper

I speak only for me here, but I don't care how any one individual.runs their business. None of my comments are aimed at anyone specific. That being said, if you are proud that you work 24/7 for slave wages and are booked for 6 months solid, goody for you. But don't be proud of it because you are ignorant of the fact that there is a more effective way.

[brian john]

Same basic conversation with a guy he was charging 20.00 less an hour that I was. I said you have same basic cost, warehouse, trucks secretary, union bennies ect.

He said I have a truck fee, tool rental, fuel surcharge, minimum hourly and on and on...Sometimes there is more to the story.

His hourly for 8 hours was slightly more than mine.

[Minuteman]

I'm in OKC and I charge $75 for a journeyman and $112.5 for a jw & a helper. We are very busy, I hired 2 guys this month.
My point is, that out here in "fly over country" thing cost a lot less. Gas is $3.60 - $3.75 per. A new 2000 ft/2 home runs about $120,000. Base pay for a JW is $18 - $22.

It just struck me funny that out there in the East Coast, as expensive as it is there, that somebody would be charging about the same as me. :confused:

[hardworkingstiff]

I don't think we are just getting started. I think we may be on the way up.

I sure hope you are right and I am wrong.

If oil will stabilize, then I would feel better.

[iwire]

If oil will stabilize, then I would feel better.

Depending on who your listening to China is putting 7 million new cars a year on the road.

[hardworkingstiff]

Depending on who your listening to China is putting 7 million new cars a year on the road.

Yes, that adds to demand (along with India).

Currently we have less than 5% of the world population and use about 24% of the oil. We (USA) have a serious problem on our hands.

[growler]

If oil will stabilize, then I would feel better.

We are finally between the old rock and a hard place. The weak dollars means oil will cost more but a strong dollars makes us less competitive on the world market so we lose even more jobs.

It's one of those cases where the cure may actually be worse than the disease.

[powerslave]

I'm in massachusetts and I charge $75/hr for a lic. guy and $120/hr for a lic. guy and an apprentice.

I don't mean anything personal but that does seem pretty low.

I'm in the far west suburbs of Chicago and the local handyman charges $125.00 for the first hour, $90.00/hr after that. And he is a jack of all trades but a master of none.

[bradleyelectric]

defamatory

I thought that meant it couldn't be true

[bradleyelectric]

I don't think we are just getting started. I think we may be on the way up.

I think you may be right, but I believe I'm going to stick a little extra cash in the sock draw for the winter.

[CopperTone]

Several here think the prices I charge are low. How come I am losing so much work to cheaper guys around where I live. I am flat out told to my face - you're higher than xyz. And I lose bid jobs all the time using our hourly rate factored in.
I know what our costs are, and profit - we're doing fine - a little slow sometimes with work this past year. Believe me, I want to charge more, I'd lose 1/2 the smaller GC's we work for right now if I did. So, tell me - anyone - how much is not too low?
Please don't start in with - it depends on your costs, burden, overhead, desired profit, etc.
Lets assume all small companies have the relatively same amount of overhead and all are competing with each other for work. I really would like to hear from other guys in eastern Massachusetts

company A 1-5 guys
company B 6 -24 guys
company C 25 + guys

[mdshunk]

Believe me, I want to charge more, I'd lose 1/2 the smaller GC's we work for right now if I did. I see your problem as being the fact that you're putting too many eggs in one basket. That basket is called "working for GC's".

[Minuteman]

I see your problem as being the fact that you're putting too many eggs in one basket. That basket is called "working for GC's".
I agree. When I first started contracting in '03, I was told to focus on one or two things and find my niche. Things did not seem to work that way, and I was all over the map.

Now, we have several interests. Besides the obligatory residential calls, we work for a few GC's, a GC who just does insurance claims, a large manufacturing shop and a few small shops, a few A/C companies call on us, and four property management companies. On top of all that, we have the contract to maintain the metro area tornado sirens (over 100).

[powerslave]

Several here think the prices I charge are low. How come I am losing so much work to cheaper guys around where I live. I am flat out told to my face - you're higher than xyz. And I lose bid jobs all the time using our hourly rate factored in.
I know what our costs are, and profit - we're doing fine - a little slow sometimes with work this past year. Believe me, I want to charge more, I'd lose 1/2 the smaller GC's we work for right now if I did. So, tell me - anyone - how much is not too low?
Please don't start in with - it depends on your costs, burden, overhead, desired profit, etc.
Lets assume all small companies have the relatively same amount of overhead and all are competing with each other for work. I really would like to hear from other guys in eastern Massachusetts

company A 1-5 guys
company B 6 -24 guys
company C 25 + guys

Maybe you need to look at how you are marketing yourself?

[CHWflorida]

Several here think the prices I charge are low. How come I am losing so much work to cheaper guys around where I live. I am flat out told to my face - you're higher than xyz. And I lose bid jobs all the time using our hourly rate factored in.
I know what our costs are, and profit - we're doing fine - a little slow sometimes with work this past year. Believe me, I want to charge more, I'd lose 1/2 the smaller GC's we work for right now if I did. So, tell me - anyone - how much is not too low?
Please don't start in with - it depends on your costs, burden, overhead, desired profit, etc.
Lets assume all small companies have the relatively same amount of overhead and all are competing with each other for work. I really would like to hear from other guys in eastern Massachusetts

company A 1-5 guys
company B 6 -24 guys
company C 25 + guys



I'm not gonna be much help to you because I'm in florida, but our hourly rate on t and m work is 60.00 (130.00 first hour) per man, and as low as 50.00 per man on our large commercial maintenance contracts. There's no way someone can read that and assume we are not earning profits. I too would like to see more replies with hourly rates posted. Most of us understand that every market is different so just spill the beans.

[powerslave]

I'm not gonna be much help to you because I'm in florida, but our hourly rate on t and m work is 60.00 (130.00 first hour) per man, and as low as 50.00 per man on our large commercial maintenance contracts. There's no way someone can read that and assume we are not earning profits. I too would like to see more replies with hourly rates posted. Most of us understand that every market is different so just spill the beans.


I guess it is area specific but around here $50-$60/billable hr would just cover livable wages and benefits assuming no non-billable time. Overhead and profit would not be covered by that. Then figure in non-billable time.

[CHWflorida]

I guess it is area specific but around here $50-$60/billable hr would just cover livable wages and benefits assuming no non-billable time. Overhead and profit would not be covered by that. Then figure in non-billable time.


You tell me that our rates our too low for your market but you don't tell me what rates are not. The point is I'm curious as to what the average profitable rate is in your area. If you don't want to reveal your own, which would be much more interesting, then just reply with "going rates". I have only worked in this state and the only corespondence that I do with out of state contractors is through this website.

[powerslave]

You tell me that our rates our too low for your market but you don't tell me what rates are not. The point is I'm curious as to what the average profitable rate is in your area. If you don't want to reveal your own, which would be much more interesting, then just reply with "going rates". I have only worked in this state and the only corespondence that I do with out of state contractors is through this website.


I guess I'm just saying that 50-60/hr would just cover labor in this area. Add in O/H and profit and take into consideration how many non-billable hours you have in a year and you get your number. I know things cost differently all over the country. It depends on what type of work you do also.

[peter d]

I think than an EC should be paying himself a minimum of $65 or more an hour, not billing out at that rate!

[peter d]

I'm not gonna be much help to you because I'm in florida, but our hourly rate on t and m work is 60.00 (130.00 first hour) per man, and as low as 50.00 per man on our large commercial maintenance contracts.

Commercial is a different animal, and extremely competitive for new construction especially. The name of the game there is quite similar to new residential - cheap help and speed.

Even that said, the rates you quoted make me want to barf.

[powerslave]

I think than an EC should be paying himself a minimum of $65 or more an hour, not billing out at that rate!

I agree. The owner's salary as well as the salaries of non-billable personell must be taken into consideration when figuring O/H.

[Rich R]

I'm not sure what part of Florida you are in CHW but I am in South Florida and get $125 for first hour and $90/hour after that (Per Man). Even at this rate it is almost impossible to make a profit.

I avoid T&M whenever possible and try to give set prices based on $160/hr

This is for service work Comercial and Residential. I do not work for GC's at all.

I'm actually thinking about becoming a tree trimmer since they seem to get $400 plus to trim a tree and takes them less than an hour to do. Nobody even thinks twice about paying them that. My only concern would be making sure my chainsaw is oiled up and that my truck and grinder machine had plenty of gas

[peter d]

I'm actually thinking about becoming a tree trimmer since they seem to get $400 plus to trim a tree and takes them less than an hour to do. Nobody even thinks twice about paying them that. My only concern would be making sure my chainsaw is oiled up and that my truck and grinder machine had plenty of gas

Sounds good until you do the numbers....if you want to do any kind of real tree work you need a bucket truck, a chip truck, a chipper, a crane, a stump grinder, and a pickup truck.

Or you can do everything the old fashioned way and climb everything. Hardly any overhead there.

[powerslave]

I'm not sure what part of Florida you are in CHW but I am in South Florida and get $125 for first hour and $90/hour after that (Per Man). Even at this rate it is almost impossible to make a profit.

I avoid T&M whenever possible and try to give set prices based on $160/hr

This is for service work Comercial and Residential. I do not work for GC's at all.

I'm actually thinking about becoming a tree trimmer since they seem to get $400 plus to trim a tree and takes them less than an hour to do. Nobody even thinks twice about paying them that. My only concern would be making sure my chainsaw is oiled up and that my truck and grinder machine had plenty of gas

And bucket truck. I wonder what those guys pay for insurance.

[CHWflorida]

I think than an EC should be paying himself a minimum of $65 or more an hour, not billing out at that rate!

I never stated that I was the EC. The EC that I work for pays himself several times that amount (I imagine).

[CHWflorida]

Commercial is a different animal, and extremely competitive for new construction especially. The name of the game there is quite similar to new residential - cheap help and speed.

Even that said, the rates you quoted make me want to barf.

The rates you qouted make me want to barf. Oh, wait a minute, you didn't quote any.

I guess that makes me cheap help?

[peter d]

I guess that makes me cheap help?

I have no idea what you are. I'm not an EC so I don't have any rates. But I don't need to be an EC to know when an EC is selling himself short. I've done the research and I know that many (not all) EC's do not charge enough for all the time, money, risk, investment and training it takes to be an EC.

You stated that your company's T&M rate is $60 an hour. If I was an EC and only charged a T&M rate of $60 an hour, I would seriously consider finding another line of work. However, we don't know the whole story. There very well may be other charges that are added on to that, so that $60 an hour is not accurate.

[CHWflorida]

I'm not sure what part of Florida you are in CHW but I am in South Florida and get $125 for first hour and $90/hour after that (Per Man). Even at this rate it is almost impossible to make a profit.

I avoid T&M whenever possible and try to give set prices based on $160/hr

This is for service work Comercial and Residential. I do not work for GC's at all.

I'm actually thinking about becoming a tree trimmer since they seem to get $400 plus to trim a tree and takes them less than an hour to do. Nobody even thinks twice about paying them that. My only concern would be making sure my chainsaw is oiled up and that my truck and grinder machine had plenty of gas

Thank you for sharing. I'm in central Florida. I'm employed by an EC. I don't see the books but I know we make big profits and we have for many years. Company size and structure probably makes the biggest difference in this case.

[CHWflorida]

I have no idea what you are. I'm not an EC so I don't have any rates. But I don't need to be an EC to know when an EC is selling himself short. I've done the research and I know that many (not all) EC's do not charge enough for all the time, money, risk, investment and training it takes to be an EC.

You stated that your company's T&M rate is $60 an hour. If I was an EC and only charged a T&M rate of $60 an hour, I would seriously consider finding another line of work.


Why don't we introduce ourselves. I am clearly an electrician. I am employed by a very wealthy EC. I happen to work in the service department of this company and I regularly bill customers so I obviously know our rates (these are only service work rates, not new construction or contracts). So I assume you are not an electrician, or you do not bill customers for electrical work.

[ItsHot]

Lets' get readeeeeeeeee to rumble!:grin: $65 an hour sounds like someone is cutting theirself short.:-? :-? just my 2 cents, Peace!!:)

[powerslave]

Why don't we introduce ourselves. I am clearly an electrician. I am employed by a very wealthy EC. I happen to work in the service department of this company and I regularly bill customers so I obviously know our rates (these are only service work rates, not new construction or contracts). So I assume you are not an electrician, or you do not bill customers for electrical work.


Then the EC you work for must have lots of guys and lots of billable hours per man in a day to make him rich. Not only are you guys covering your salaries and benefits but also the cost to run the company and profit and all non-billable personell salaries and benefits. And again, your non-billable time (time working in the shop, safety meetings, etc....)

I mean, just do the numbers.

Your boss may appear to be rich but maybe he has other irons in the fire (i.e. other business dealings?)

[Texhunter7]

It is funny reading all of this when how many people in this country are "unemployed" and wish they had a job and here a few are bickering of how much to charge someone. I know i am just glad i have a job and a lot of sidework to keep me busy. The rate i charge personally is my business and what the company charges is their,s. So why don,t everyone be happy you have a job.

[CHWflorida]

Lets' get readeeeeeeeee to rumble!:grin: $65 an hour sounds like someone is cutting theirself short.:-? :-? just my 2 cents, Peace!!:)

$65.00/hr is $5.00 more than what we charge.

[ItsHot]

It is funny reading all of this when how many people in this country are "unemployed" and wish they had a job and here a few are bickering of how much to charge someone. I know i am just glad i have a job and a lot of sidework to keep me busy. The rate i charge personally is my business and what the company charges is their,s. So why don,t everyone be happy you have a job.
Hey Tex, I would be careful how you mention sidework here!:roll:

[powerslave]

Lets' get readeeeeeeeee to rumble!:grin:


C'mon people now, smile on your brother..............

[CHWflorida]

It is funny reading all of this when how many people in this country are "unemployed" and wish they had a job and here a few are bickering of how much to charge someone. I know i am just glad i have a job and a lot of sidework to keep me busy. The rate i charge personally is my business and what the company charges is their,s. So why don,t everyone be happy you have a job.

You can't help but bicker when your livelihood is threatened by others who charge too little and upset the market. This affects me, in a way, as much as an EC, being that I'm employed by one. Of course, he has much more to lose. Unfortunately, my boss is only interested in seeing his company succeed, and if others are bankrupted, I guess that means a little more work for him. Now, all that said, I was just asking for going rates around the country (I doubt this is the first time it's been asked) and I revealed ours. It might seem low but we make money.

[peter d]

I am clearly an electrician.


You don't say? ;)

I was responding to your rhetorical question "I guess that makes me cheap help?" to which I replied "I have no idea what you are," meaning "I have no idea if you're cheap help or not."

[CHWflorida]

Then the EC you work for must have lots of guys and lots of billable hours per man in a day to make him rich. Not only are you guys covering your salaries and benefits but also the cost to run the company and profit and all non-billable personell salaries and benefits. And again, your non-billable time (time working in the shop, safety meetings, etc....)

I mean, just do the numbers.

Your boss may appear to be rich but maybe he has other irons in the fire (i.e. other business dealings?)

I don't want to do the numbers. Are you an electrician? This conversation will make alot more sense if you state your occupation (it's not in your profile). I have to go back and check who originally asked the question but I'm basically just asking for hourly rates as billed to customers. My boss is an electrical contractor. The size of the company might be irrlelevant.

[powerslave]

I don't want to do the numbers. Are you an electrician? This conversation will make alot more sense if you state your occupation (it's not in your profile). I have to go back and check who originally asked the question but I'm basically just asking for hourly rates as billed to customers. My boss is an electrical contractor. The size of the company might be irrlelevant.

I own a flower shop.

Just kidding.

I am an EC and it is in my profile. Click on my name and you will see my profile.

[CHWflorida]

I own a flower shop.

Just kidding.

I am an EC and it is in my profile. Click on my name and you will see my profile.

Sorry, I mixed you up with peter d.

[peter d]

Are you an electrician?

I think I am....

[CHWflorida]

I think I am....

Damn it man! Cut the crap already. I have hardly posted anything on this site. Now I do and I get your nonsense. I'm not trying to waste time but I guess that's what I'm doing.

[peter d]

Damn it man! Cut the crap already. I have hardly posted anything on this site. Now I do and I get your nonsense. I'm not trying to waste time but I guess that's what I'm doing.

Fine. Yes, I'm an electrician. Not an EC, engineer, or anything else related to the trade. Just a plain old electrician.

[CHWflorida]

Fine. Yes, I'm an electrician. Not an EC, engineer, or anything else related to the trade. Just a plain old electrician.

OK. Do you bill customers, and if so, what is the hourly rate, and what region do you work in, if that's not too much to ask?

[peter d]

OK. Do you bill customers, and if so, what is the hourly rate, and what region do you work in, if that's not too much to ask?

I do not bill customers, but I know the hourly rate of the company that I work for. I would rather not reveal it publicly on this forum as I do not have permission to do so. My area is southern New England.

[mdshunk]

I would rather not reveal it publicly on this forum as I do not have permission to do so. I'll go ahead and give you permission...

[ItsHot]

I'll go ahead and give you permission...
Marc!! How many Dr. Peppers have you had tonight?:grin:

[peter d]

Marc!! How many Dr. Peppers have you had tonight?:grin:


By his last statement it's obvious he's had far too many. :D

[CHWflorida]

I do not bill customers, but I know the hourly rate of the company that I work for. I would rather not reveal it publicly on this forum as I do not have permission to do so. My area is southern New England.

Well I figured there must have been some reason you wouldn't say. I, myself, am anonymous on this site and it wouldn't matter if I weren't. I guess the only reason I started on this rant is because I was sick of seeing someone reveal their prices and then a bunch of others criticizing him without saying where they think he should be or where they're at as far as pricing. Just seems stupid to me.

[ItsHot]

By his last statement it's obvious he's had far too many. :D Drunk again!....me too!:grin:

[peter d]

Well I figured there must have been some reason you wouldn't say.

I will say this, my personal opinion is that my boss does not charge enough. Remember that New England is a high cost part of the nation, especially for businesses, yet many contractors rates do not reflect that here.

[powerslave]

Well I figured there must have been some reason you wouldn't say. I, myself, am anonymous on this site and it wouldn't matter if I weren't. I guess the only reason I started on this rant is because I was sick of seeing someone reveal their prices and then a bunch of others criticizing him without saying where they think he should be or where they're at as far as pricing. Just seems stupid to me.


I don't think anyone is critcizing. We all want to make a buck. It's just that there is a bottom line as far as billable hours will go. $60/hr seems like alot of money compared to someones salary, but when figuring in just the basics in O/H it just seems a bit low.

Not too many ECs will give their billable hourly rates on a public forum as it is proprietary information.

BTW, we don't bill out per hour. We flat rate.

[CHWflorida]

I don't think anyone is critcizing. We all want to make a buck. It's just that there is a bottom line as far as billable hours will go. $60/hr seems like alot of money compared to someones salary, but when figuring in just the basics in O/H it just seems a bit low.

Not too many ECs will give their billable hourly rates on a public forum as it is proprietary information.

BTW, we don't bill out per hour. We flat rate.

Fair enough. But don't get me wrong. I don't care if the guys feelings get hurt, I'm just saying, I was just a spectator in this thread and I wanted to see how much better the other side charging. I knew most would say our rates were low and that's why I said them. Only one person said what he thinks they should be (or what his are, anyway). It doesn't necessarily have to be your exact rates if you wish to keep that secret, just the "proper going rates". Hey, I could be full of crap (I'm not), but I,m not representing anyone here.

[ItsHot]

Fair enough. But don't get me wrong. I don't care if the guys feelings get hurt, I'm just saying, I was just a spectator in this thread and I wanted to see how much better the other side charging. I knew most would say our rates were low and that's why I said them. Only one person said what he thinks they should be (or what his are, anyway). It doesn't necessarily have to be your exact rates if you wish to keep that secret, just the "proper going rates". Hey, I could be full of crap (I'm not), but I,m not representing anyone here. So you were just playing a game?? Why did you get mad?:confused:

[mdshunk]

just the "proper going rates". I think some will tell you that there is no such thing as a "going rate". There is a proper rate, which will vary from company to company, even in the same market. There are also rates that are too low, which are somewhat easy to spot. What's difficult (indeed, maybe impossible on a forum) to say is how much too low a certain low rate might be. Take the waving of a red flag at a perceived low rate as encouragement to investigate the real cost of doing business. Anyone else's rate is completely irrevelant, and should not even be considered for a split-second.

[CHWflorida]

So you were just playing a game?? Why did you get mad?:confused:

Another stupid post.

[CHWflorida]

I think some will tell you that there is no such thing as a "going rate". There is a proper rate, which will vary from company to company, even in the same market. There are also rates that are too low, which are somewhat easy to spot. What's difficult (indeed, maybe impossible on a forum) to say is how much too low a certain low rate might be. Take the waving of a red flag at a perceived low rate as encouragement to investigate the real cost of doing business. Anyone else's rate is completely irrevelant, and should not even be considered for a split-second.

Very well put. I'm sure most will agree with that. That's the kind of reasoning I wish people would use more often on this site. Coming from you it will not be disputed. Unfortunately my words would not carry such weight.

[powerslave]

I think some will tell you that there is no such thing as a "going rate". There is a proper rate, which will vary from company to company, even in the same market. There are also rates that are too low, which are somewhat easy to spot. What's difficult (indeed, maybe impossible on a forum) to say is how much too low a certain low rate might be. Take the waving of a red flag at a perceived low rate as encouragement to investigate the real cost of doing business. Anyone else's rate is completely irrevelant, and should not even be considered for a split-second.

I agree. Too many business people (not just ECs) look at the "going rate" and base their price on that. You have to figure in all of your specific costs to find your true rate.

[480sparky]

I agree. Too many business people (not just ECs) look at the "going rate" and base their price on that. You have to figure in all of your specific costs to find your true rate.

The problem is, if they actually do the math based on their expenses, too many end up with a (realistic) figure they think is too high and can't be sold. They say to themselves, "How can I stay in business if I'm charging $125 an hour, and my competition is charging only $100? Who is going to hire me? I've GOT to charge $90/hour just to keep working."

[mivey]

CHWflorida,

I feel your pain. There are many here that will look at someone's quoted rate and immediately say "that is too low" when they have absolutely no clue as to how that rate is being billed. It sounds like to me there are some guys who either: 1) Don't get off their behinds and put in a full week or 2) Charge only for the time they are actually turning a screwdriver. Even on that part, I'm just speculating and I really could care less.

I think it would be obvious to say a $30/hr billing rate is too low unless you were doing charity work, but where do you draw the line? You will never know until you look at the details. I find it stupid for someone to say: "you can't make money at $80/hour" when they have no clue how the business is run. Obviously, there are people making money at that rate, but they are doing things different from the guy who says his rate is $200/hr and may even be in a different cost zone.

I like Marc's post #76 as it makes the most sense. Be sure you have covered all of your real costs. You may also find ways to change your business methods that make things work better as well.

I see this site as a place to get input, then take those inputs and shape them into what I want, not to be a site to get a complete cookie-cutter model or billing rate.

That being said, I do like to look at the many salary survey websites to see if the net wages and benefits are competitive. This information is almost impossible to get from a billing rate.

[jrannis]

Pick up a yellow pages and call about 8 large ad electrical contractors and see what they are charging.
Should take about 20 minutes to do.
There are some very rual and inexpensive places to live and work in central Florida. Some places with very little work within many miles.
We have people coming into the SouthEast area from the West coast and trying to make a quick buck and leave.
Its sad to hear how they have to spend 8 hours to pull a permit, and have to pass inspections and then try to get paid.
I had a West coast roofer tell me how proud he was that he was $40,000 dollars cheaper on an $80,000 job than the next three local roofing contractors and the customer gave him a bottle of Chivas Regal when he signed the contract.
This is the guy that failed his tin cap inspection twice, failed for not having an OSHA ladder for the inspector and other misc problems.
He also let me know that he didnt pay for dumping either.
Nice guy. I hope he stays on the other side of Alligator Alley.

[emahler]

i know this is page nine, and it will get lost, but here goes....

hourly rates don't mean anything....what matters is your billable hourly for each hour worked...

ie...if you are a service company, you can expect 4 hrs productive work, in an 8 hr day....

if you bill the customer for travel, getting material, etc, your hourly rate might be $60/hr, but your billable rate is actually $120/hr.

now throw in service truck fees, trip fees, and any other nickle and dime fee you can think off, and suddenly, your billable rate is $150+/hr...

if you are a construction company, my guess is that your billable hourly is also higher than that $60...since when we bid (god i hate that word) projects, we assign a time to every task. And if we can come in under the projected man hours for a project, we just upped our billable rate. Not to mention that anything we can make on material goes towards this number as well...

Now, are you charging enough? if you are doing it T&M, and not billing as described above, probably not...

lets say a mechanic costs you $30/hr with burden...he runs service work...for an hour day, he costs you $240...just for labor...

you bill $60/hr...so you make $30/hr to cover overhead, right?

only if you bill out at least 8 hours. Too many guys think that they have to match the hourly, and only bill for the productive...so they are only billing 4 hrs @ $60/hr per day...

so they are billing $240/day + material, and paying their mechanic $240/day in labor and burden....wait a second...

so, hourly rates don't mean anything...its the billable hourly that matters...

and try running a resi/lt commercial service company hourly, billing for travel...good luck.

I don't mean a construction company that services their existing customers...I mean the company that specializes in the service market...

light commercial is defined as the small mom and pop shops, 1 location stores...not corporate chains or factories, or larger commercial. I'm talking the places that can basically be interchanged with residential.

[powerslave]

CHWflorida,

I feel your pain. There are many here that will look at someone's quoted rate and immediately say "that is too low" when they have absolutely no clue as to how that rate is being billed. It sounds like to me there are some guys who either: 1) Don't get off their behinds and put in a full week or 2) Charge only for the time they are actually turning a screwdriver. Even on that part, I'm just speculating and I really could care less.

Wow. All I said was that it was too low for my area. You obviously have no business training. It's called a billable hour. Ask the billing department at your place of work. You may be surprised. If you think that an EC is going to turn a screwdriver for forty hours a week and put in no other time you are way off. I really don't know how else to respond to this post except for....Wow.

And if you are frustrated because we won't give up our billable hourly rate, don't go right to the insults. It comes across as childish.;)

You're an engineer. You can show better class than that.

[brian john]

I have seen this discussion in many forms here and on other forums. FACT IS.

This is basically a free enterprise open market, If Joe can make it on $50.00 and make a living, support his family and is happy and hopefully do decent work then go for it. If Jake is charging a $100.00 an hour in the same area and making it, so be it.

There are way too many differences in how one chooses to live, big house, no house, Cadillac, Yugo, 5 kids no kids, how much debt incurred, and on and on. No one is right or wrong till either go out of business one for undercharging a livable amount or charging more than the road can bear.

I also posted earlier about EXTRAS some folks charge above an hourly rate.

A local government was allowing only $37.00 an hour billable. I asked the EC how he could make a living at that rate.

4 hour minimum his guys billed 12-16 a day at T&M, plus 15% overhead and 10% profit, material at the line 4 rate plus 15 and 10 and the aforementioned truck fee, mileage, fuel surcharge, tool rental.

THE POINT, IS DO WHAT FLOATS YOUR BOAT. Those of you that think someone undercharges I feel you pain BUT ALAS this is America and they can do what they want within reason. They'll either be your competition or they won't.

[peter d]

This is basically a free enterprise open market, If Joe can make it on $50.00 and make a living, support his family and is happy and hopefully do decent work then go for it. If Jake is charging a $100.00 an hour in the same area and making it, so be it.

That's all well and good, but you're leaving out a huge piece of this puzzle. An EC who charges too little simply will not be able to provide decent pay and benefits for their employees. And if you have any hope of growing your business, you need employees who are well paid, and loyalty comes with good pay, among other things. It's just not going to happen with the small companies unless they raise their rates.

[chris kennedy]

He also let me know that he didnt pay for dumping either.

Real nice. jrannis and I both know where that got dumped. The Everglades.

[iwire]

That's all well and good, but you're leaving out a huge piece of this puzzle. An EC who charges too little simply will not be able to provide decent pay and benefits for their employees.

And if they do not, is it not the employees responsibility either stay or go?

What I am saying is this.

IMO it is my right to start a business and run it as stupidly as I want. If I can not provide good pay and bennies then I will not get good help. The market will weed me out.

But in the end it is not my responsibility to help keep the rates up for my competitors. This is likely why guys like emahler and Marc will say don't set your rates on the others in the area.

That would be like telling Walmart they have to raise their prices so that the Mom & Pop shops can compete.

It is a cruel world and life is hard.

[peter d]

It is a cruel world and life is hard.

Yes, but some people make it unnecessarily hard on themselves when it doesn't have to be that way. My comments were directed mostly at the small contractor who wishes to grow their business and retain good employees. Charging too little is the best way to prevent that from happening, simple as that.

But the bottom line is that I could not care less how people run their businesses. I'm just trying to help out.

[bradleyelectric]

BTW, we don't bill out per hour. We flat rate.

Are your jobs based on an hourly rate to come up with the flat rate for that task or just a number used from historical numbers and raised at intervals based on market conditions?

[iwire]

Charging too little is the best way to prevent that from happening, simple as that.

Sure is. :smile:

And if they are not the sort of person that recognizes it perhaps they are not suited for running a business?


My point being is that I think it is the minority of electricians that are really capable of becoming business people.

I look at running a business and being an electrician as two entirely different skill sets, not mutually exclusive but it is certainly not common.

I am good electrician, would that make me a good news reporter, Chef, Liberian or social worker? Nope.

So why would we assume an electrician would automatically be a good businessman.

That gentleman in Dover I sort of work for started as an electrician but then went and got his masters degree in business. He knew that he did not know..... :smile:

[bradleyelectric]

That would be like telling Walmart they have to raise their prices so that the Mom & Pop shops can compete.

It is a cruel world and life is hard.

Have you ever heard about WalMart and Vlasic Pickles? There are a lot of reasons WalMart is ranked right up there with the Clinton's with me. I'll probably be there sometime this week though.

I do see what you mean about this button. It is my friend.

[iwire]

Have you ever heard about WalMart .

I am no fan of Walmart's practices, but they are doing what is right for Walmart which is what successful companies do.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/

[peter d]

I am good electrician, would that make me a good news reporter, Chef, Liberian or social worker? Nope.

Yeah, I wouldn't expect a guy from Framingham, MA to be a Liberian. :D :D

[powerslave]

Are your jobs based on an hourly rate to come up with the flat rate for that task or just a number used from historical numbers and raised at intervals based on market conditions?


We use historical data to see how long a task should take and then use what we need to charge per billable hour to assign a price.

[iwire]

Yeah, I wouldn't expect a guy from Framingham, MA to be a Liberian. :D :D

Pete I don't think it's any secret I use spell check. :grin:

[peter d]

Pete I don't think it's any secret I use spell check. :grin:

I really had no idea. ;)

[CHWflorida]

That's all well and good, but you're leaving out a huge piece of this puzzle. An EC who charges too little simply will not be able to provide decent pay and benefits for their employees. And if you have any hope of growing your business, you need employees who are well paid, and loyalty comes with good pay, among other things. It's just not going to happen with the small companies unless they raise their rates.

I may be settling for less, I don't know, but I think I'm treated pretty decent. Of course I wouldn't mind better benefits and pay but don't assume they are not adequate simply by our service rates. I think it's important to note the difference between service work billed time and material (what I was talking about before) and contract work, which takes into account all factors to insure profitability. I'm just an employee so I don't see the whole picture, but the bottom line is our company brings in big profits. I'm sure we lose on jobs sometimes merely to keep the big ones rolling in. Again, I was speaking of hourly service rates, not a big secret. Like someone else said, you can call around and get them over the phone. I really don't have the time nor do I care to do that while I'm already busy working. And as far as growing the business, the one I speak of has 200+ employees.

[peter d]

CHW,

When I say these things, I am speaking in extreme generalities and nothing is aimed directly at one person, unless I actually say so. If that's the case at the company you're at, then great. :)

[lbwireman]

I thought that meant it couldn't be true

Since the poster making the original comment included himself in the group, the comment struck me as more "self deprecating" (as in "we're all Bozos on this bus") than "defamatory". However, the AHJ has spoken....:)

[CHWflorida]

CHW,

When I say these things, I am speaking in extreme generalities and nothing is aimed directly at one person, unless I actually say so. If that's the case at the company you're at, then great. :)

This will be the last post in this thread for me. I'm not in business for myself and honestly this really isn't that important to me right now. I was using myself as an example to show that your generalities are not necessarily acurate (not just yours, others as well). Believe me, I want higher rates if it were beneficial, but I know that the competition is very high right now and it ain't gonna happen. The proven success of this company tells me you can be very profitable with the right management. I was surprised at first by what they charge but I'm starting to see more of the big picture now. We are still more expensive than many of the big shops around here. I'm way too inexperienced in business to be taken too serious and you won't see me making a stupid post telling someone he's going to go out of business because he's too low. I'm just saying the way I see it and my paychecks look pretty good. I'm out.

[growler]

Hey Tex, I would be careful how you mention sidework here!:roll:

Sidework!!!....Slowly I turned.....Step by Step....Inch by Inch.....

Did you say Niagara Falls? :grin: :grin:

[ItsHot]

Sidework!!!....Slowly I turned.....Step by Step....Inch by Inch.....

Did you say Niagara Falls? :grin: :grin: LOL Growler!! A lot of members do not recognize this line! Man I'm gettind old!:grin:

[petersonra]

sometimes it is about survival. sometimes nothing you do can even insure survival - remember the buggy whip makers. even if they worked for free, no one will buy them anymore.

[iwire]

remember the buggy whip makers. even if they worked for free, no one will buy them anymore.


Yeah the home ice delivery business has kind of slowed down as well. :grin:

I just don't think we are expecting electrical work to go that way anytime soon. :smile:

[iwire]

LOL Growler!! A lot of members do not recognize this line! Man I'm gettind old!:grin:

I got it right away, classic. :grin:

'No wonder it doesn't work, theres wires in these pipes' 8-)

[mivey]

Wow. All I said was that it was too low for my area. You obviously have no business training. It's called a billable hour. Ask the billing department at your place of work. You may be surprised. If you think that an EC is going to turn a screwdriver for forty hours a week and put in no other time you are way off. I really don't know how else to respond to this post except for....Wow.

And if you are frustrated because we won't give up our billable hourly rate, don't go right to the insults. It comes across as childish.;)

You're an engineer. You can show better class than that.It is not all about you.

I assure you there are no surprises where my rates are concerned. I really don't care if you (or anyone else for that matter) posts rates or not as it has nothing to do with my rate. No bearing whatsoever.

There are some EC's who bill only for the time spent at a customer site and forget about true billable hours. No insults, just the truth. Read emahler's post #83 about billable hours as it makes good sense.

There are some EC's who have too much wasted time and can't figure out why ends won't meet. This is the other side of accounting for non-billable hours. If you have calculated a certain amount of billable hours and can't get there, you have either underestimated, or are suffering from a lack of productivity. No insults, just the truth.

As emahler also pointed out, you can't just compare a quoted rate without knowing what is behind the number and how that number is used.

Now stop being so sensitive, insulting, and childish.:smile:

[480sparky]

sometimes it is about survival. sometimes nothing you do can even insure survival - remember the buggy whip makers. even if they worked for free, no one will buy them anymore.

Same thing happened to ice picks.

[bradleyelectric]

We use historical data to see how long a task should take and then use what we need to charge per billable hour to assign a price.

just pointing out the fact that the rate is based on time. It should be and I believe in your system. It is still based on an hourly rate.

[Texhunter7]

I do not really understand why a person cannot mention sidework on here, if you care to explain.

[JohnJ0906]

I do not really understand why a person cannot mention sidework on here, if you care to explain.

A) It is illegal in many areas for someone who is unlicenced, uninsured, etc.
B) A lot of the ECs here have to compete against people doing sidework for very low rates.

[brian john]

It (side work) really upsets legit contractors. They fell (justifiable so) that side workers are cutting corners and in some case competing unfairly. Makes it tough on some contractors.

[iwire]

I do not really understand why a person cannot mention sidework on here, if you care to explain.

There really is no forum rule against side work posts here.

However many of the members who run full time electrical business do not have a lot of love for side jobbers.

One thing the forum would not allow is talk of how to get around the rules and laws.'

In some areas it is legal to side job in others it is not.

[mivey]

Some sidejobbers use other means to cover their overhead and make it tough for a regular EC who has to carry the full overhead to compete.

Other sidejobbers don't carry the full overhead required by a regular EC and also make it tough to compete.

I don't think there would be as much complaining if the playing field were level and someone just wanted to work for less but still cover all legitimate overhead. I think much of the frustration comes because a lot of sidejobbers avoid things like insurance, permits, taxes, etc and are "cheating" from the starting gate.

[bikeindy]

You can't help but bicker when your livelihood is threatened by others who charge too little and upset the market. This affects me, in a way, as much as an EC, being that I'm employed by one. Of course, he has much more to lose. Unfortunately, my boss is only interested in seeing his company succeed, and if others are bankrupted, I guess that means a little more work for him. Now, all that said, I was just asking for going rates around the country (I doubt this is the first time it's been asked) and I revealed ours. It might seem low but we make money.

I don't care how little someone charges they can not hurt my lively hood. They may end up working for someone because they ran them selves out of business, but my work and the work of my guys is what keeps the customers calling. Our business is about 86% referal and business is up 60% this year, and i haven't lowered prices I have been raising them.

[Texhunter7]

O.k. i understand but i do have all of the above 100% covered . I personally will not compete with no one out there every thing i get is 100% referals and that is all. If it offends or upsets some one then i don,t know what to say. I am a person who just calls and see,s things the way they are.

[480sparky]

O.k. i understand but i do have all of the above 100% covered . I personally will not compete with no one out there every thing i get is 100% referals and that is all. If it offends or upsets some one then i don,t know what to say. I am a person who just calls and see,s things the way they are.

You say you do not compete with any one out here, but doing side work, no matter how you obtained the job, is still taking work away from those who are in the business of being ECs. It's not we're accusing you of taking customers directly away from your employer. It's the fact that you are doing side work that some here will take offense to.

The reason being, you can do side work without having many of the costs associated with a true business. Advertising, vehicle expenses, insurance, licensing/permits/bonds are all costs you may not need to bear to do side work, but full-blown EC must pay these things in order to operate.

So your boss sits in his office, needing to charge $100 an hour (because of his overhead) for each person in the field, and can't get any work lined up. The reason is the builders are hiring the guys doing side work (who have no overhead) for $30 an hour.

[mivey]

O.k. i understand but i do have all of the above 100% covered . I personally will not compete with no one out there every thing i get is 100% referals and that is all. If it offends or upsets some one then i don,t know what to say. I am a person who just calls and see,s things the way they are.If you have all of your costs covered, and are happy with what you make, then more power to you.

It never hurts to double-check items included in your benefit costs against what others are including. You might see something extra that you like and want for yourself.

[edit: I read 480's post and realized I was thinking more along the lines of what have been called trunk-slammers. 480 has a good point in that you should not bite the hand that feeds you. I would never do sidework that was the same as my full-time job without okaying it with the boss]

[iwire]

You say you do not compete with any one out here, but doing side work, no matter how you obtained the job, is still taking work away from those who are in the business of being ECs. It's not we're accusing you of taking customers directly away from your employer. It's the fact that you are doing side work that some here will take offense to.

The reason being, you can do side work without having many of the costs associated with a true business. Advertising, vehicle expenses, insurance, licensing/permits/bonds are all costs you may not need to bear to do side work, but full-blown EC must pay these things in order to operate.


All that is of course true, but it always was long before we were alive. :smile: It is the way of things.

I am willing to bet that many of the large and successful full time ECs started first doing side jobs. In this area almost everyone side jobs at some time or another.

[Texhunter7]

Man it sure don't take long to get thrown into a shark pit, but i guess thats life . Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Like i said earlier in a post if it offended anyone then i don't know what to say.

[mivey]

Just to get the terms straight. What have the guys who do side jobs that are different from their regular jobs being labeled now-a-days (say an electrician who does residential as a side job but works full-time for an EC who only does commercial)?

[powerslave]

There are some EC's who have too much wasted time and can't figure out why ends won't meet. This is the other side of accounting for non-billable hours. If you have calculated a certain amount of billable hours and can't get there, you have either underestimated, or are suffering from a lack of productivity. No insults, just the truth.

As emahler also pointed out, you can't just compare a quoted rate without knowing what is behind the number and how that number is used.

Now stop being so sensitive, insulting, and childish.:smile:

I still don't think you have any business sense. But you do a great job of quoting emahler, who sounds like he does have business sense. So at least you have that going for you. No insults, just the truth.:smile:

[Texhunter7]

That is exactly the case for me in my situation. I have personally given the company leads on nice commercial jobs and will continue to do so because it helps the company i work for out. Also will promote and push the company name out to anyone i come across.

[mivey]

I still don't think you have any business sense. But you do a great job of quoting emahler, who sounds like he does have business sense. So at least you have that going for you. No insults, just the truth.:smile:No PWI allowed. Come back tomorrow.:grin:

[ItsHot]

Just to get the terms straight. What have the guys who do side jobs that are different from their regular jobs being labeled now-a-days (say an electrician who does residential as a side job but works full-time for an EC who only does commercial)? That would be what many here call a "sideworker"! The concern also is the fact that "sideworkers" keep cost driven down!!

[Texhunter7]

Well i personally won't keep on posting on this subject anymore, it is just not worth it to keep on going on to what is left of the carcass after the shark attack.

[mivey]

That would be what many here call a "sideworker"! The concern also is the fact that "sideworkers" keep cost driven down!!No doubt about it. But it is the same problem with many industries and will always be something a regular business owner will have to contend with.

You have to sell a better product. You can charge more for your services if the customer believes they are getting a better product. If you are a quality business, most of the time you will have a better product.

Unfortunately, there are some customers who are only concerned with the bottom dollar. These will not necessarily be your best customers in the long run anyway.

[powerslave]

Just to get the terms straight. What have the guys who do side jobs that are different from their regular jobs being labeled now-a-days (say an electrician who does residential as a side job but works full-time for an EC who only does commercial)?

Now I think I'm starting to understand it. You are an engineer that does electrical sidework. Sorry for the mistake.:smile:

[480sparky]

That is exactly the case for me in my situation. I have personally given the company leads on nice commercial jobs and will continue to do so because it helps the company i work for out. Also will promote and push the company name out to anyone i come across.

Fine if you promote the company for commercial jobs, but is that because you won't do comm. jobs yourself on the side?

Try imagining being the owner of your company. You are paying your employees so much an hour, as well as some bennies (let's say 2 weeks paid vacation, medical & dental insurance). In order to pay for that, you need to charge so much per hour to stay afloat.

Now along comes a side-liner, who doesn't care about getting 2 weeks vacation because it's just a one-time job for some builder. He doesn't need to figure in any medical or dental insurance costs either. Why? He gets that through his employer. So he can do the job for less than you can.

So you end up, in effect, subsidizing someone who is (potentially) taking work away from you.

[mivey]

Well i personally won't keep on posting on this subject anymore, it is just not worth it to keep on going on to what is left of the carcass after the shark attack.Don't be frustrated. Stick around and stand up for what you believe. If you are self-confident, it does not matter if others agree with you or what they say about you. You may learn something. You may teach others something. It is just a forum.

[mivey]

Now I think I'm starting to understand it. You are an engineer that does electrical sidework. Sorry for the mistake.:smile:Bzzzz. Another mistake. Back of the line. Try again tomorrow. You have too many mistakes piling up tonight.:smile:

[PS: my question was because I don't keep up with the latest labels that are being used for who does what as it is only a passing interest as I don't put much stock in labels (sidejobbers, simpletons, trunk-slammers, etc)]

[480sparky]

Don't be frustrated. Stick around and stand up for what you believe. If you are self-confident, it does not matter if others agree with you or what they say about you. You may learn something. You may teach others something. It is just a forum.

Absolutly. Don't think we're here to try to beat you into submission.

[powerslave]

Bzzzz. Another mistake. Back of the line. Try again tomorrow. You have too many mistakes piling up tonight.:smile:


No. I think I hit it dead on.;)

[mivey]

No. I think I hit it dead on.;)Do you think you can really evaluate someone based on a few posts and some silly assumptions on your part? Your thoughts are being clouded by your dark side.:wink:

As for what I think, I think you no more care what I think than I do what you think as it has just been a diversion on a slow post period.

I do think we have wasted enough time with this nonsense.:cool:

[powerslave]

Do you think you can really evaluate someone based on a few posts and some silly assumptions on your part? Your thoughts are being clouded by your dark side.:wink:

Lol:smile:

As for what I think, I think you no more care what I think than I do what you think as it has just been a diversion on a slow post period.

I do think we have wasted enough time with this nonsense.:cool:


Agreed. Have a good night.:smile:

[petersonra]

I do not really understand why a person cannot mention sidework on here, if you care to explain.
I don't think it is prohibited.

Some posters think it is somehow immoral or inappropriate because these guys don't have some of the expenses the bigger guys have, and sometimes the side jobbers are not in complete compliance with the law regarding who can perform electrical work.

My guess is that they have little effect on the larger ECs. They just don't have the capacity to do enough work to compete with those guys, and much of what they are doing is probably stuff the bigger guys don't really want anyway.

[electricmanscott]

I don't think it is prohibited.

Some posters think it is somehow immoral or inappropriate because these guys don't have some of the expenses the bigger guys have, and sometimes the side jobbers are not in complete compliance with the law regarding who can perform electrical work.

My guess is that they have little effect on the larger ECs. They just don't have the capacity to do enough work to compete with those guys, and much of what they are doing is probably stuff the bigger guys don't really want anyway.


I don't really care about side work one way or another, it is the American way and it is how I started out as did many here

BUT.....

Certain people who are members of certain organizations that expressly forbid side work in exchange for good wages and benefits still go out and do sidework in violation of their own rules.....

That I have a HUGE problem with and it goes far deeper than sidework

[iwire]

Certain people who are members of certain organizations that expressly forbid side work in exchange for good wages and benefits still go out and do sidework in violation of their own rules.....

That I have a HUGE problem with and it goes far deeper than sidework

I could not agree more and they will be the first to raise a stink if the company they work for violates the smallest contractual obligation.

[petersonra]

Certain people who are members of certain organizations that expressly forbid side work in exchange for good wages and benefits still go out and do sidework in violation of their own rules.
What orgnaization are we talking about here?

And just how could they posisbly enforce such a rule legally?

[bikeindy]

What orgnaization are we talking about here?

And just how could they posisbly enforce such a rule legally?

I think it is called a contract.

As for me If one of my guys is doing side work I don't care as long as it is not from a customer of mine. That will get you fired.

[emahler]

How about the other guys employee who's doing sidework for your "customer"?

[iwire]

How about the other guys employee who's doing sidework for your "customer"?

I was not aware a customer belonged to anyone.

[emahler]

Reread bikeindy's post, then reread mine. Please pay close attention to a couple ".

Thanks for your anticipated cooperation in this matter

[bikeindy]

How about the other guys employee who's doing sidework for your "customer"?

Most of the side work I think is ok is the friend and relationship side work I don't think a guy who is employed as an electrician by an EC should be also drumming up his own work. And I have no control over it anyway.

[emahler]

Most of the side work I think is ok is the friend and relationship side work I don't think a guy who is employed as an electrician by an EC should be also drumming up his own work. And I have no control over it anyway.

you have control over it...you just don't want to be bothered with it...that's ok, but don't justify it...

[bikeindy]

Well since Indiana has no state license requirement and few counties here require one just about anyone can do electrical work here. I can't chase down all the side jobbers, and a lot of them are making work for me.

[Sparky555]

We recently had some fence installed. One of the crew offered to install some more fence and would save us $300 over having his employer do it. I was going to call his boss & my wife told me to let it go. I thought it was no-class. To the employees on the forum who don't understand the problem with side jobbers...don't complain if you're laid off for lack of work...maybe someones doing your job for a little extra cash.

My Mom's in Florida. She has retired guys doing repairs around the house. They do it for a few dollars an hour to have something to do. These were guys who had careers in the 50s-70s with some of the best pay & benefits in history. Now they're working because they're bored. I feel sorry for any family man in the area trying to support his family at a level anywhere near what these retirees had when they were working.

Dave

[powerslave]

We recently had some fence installed. One of the crew offered to install some more fence and would save us $300 over having his employer do it. I was going to call his boss & my wife told me to let it go. I thought it was no-class. To the employees on the forum who don't understand the problem with side jobbers...don't complain if you're laid off for lack of work...maybe someones doing your job for a little extra cash.

My Mom's in Florida. She has retired guys doing repairs around the house. They do it for a few dollars an hour to have something to do. These were guys who had careers in the 50s-70s with some of the best pay & benefits in history. Now they're working because they're bored. I feel sorry for any family man in the area trying to support his family at a level anywhere near what these retirees had when they were working.

Dave


Very well put.

[iwire]

Reread bikeindy's post, then reread mine. Please pay close attention to a couple ".

Thanks for your anticipated cooperation in this matter

Would you feel better if I put it this way?

As for me If one of my guys is doing side work I don't care as long as it is not from a customer of mine. That will get you fired.

I was not aware a customer was any businesses property.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I don't really care about side work one way or another, it is the American way and it is how I started out as did many here

BUT.....

Certain people who are members of certain organizations that expressly forbid side work in exchange for good wages and benefits still go out and do sidework in violation of their own rules.....

That I have a HUGE problem with and it goes far deeper than sidework

-You started out doing sidework.
-You state it is "the American way."
-You have a HUGE problem with those who did or do sidework who work under a collective bargianing agreement, but apparently hve no such distain for those who do or started out doing sidework who did not have any collective bargianing agreement, yet their respective former or current employers would fire them on the spot if they knew?

On a side note (no pun intended) bylaws are internal governances, and not part of any collective bargianing agreement between employers and employees. There are general templates, but officially, bylaws can be voted in and out of existance on a whim by the membership.

In short, the payment of good wages and benefits has nothing to do with the existence of a "no sidework" bylaw.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I could not agree more and they will be the first to raise a stink if the company they work for violates the smallest contractual obligation.

I could not disagree more. Generally the ones who raise the biggest "stinks" are the loafers and the uninspired column shadows. Not the industrious hardworking almighty sidejobbers...

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

How about the other guys employee who's doing sidework for your "customer"?

Then it's not YOUR customer... anymore. :-D

[quogueelectric]

Then it's not YOUR customer... anymore. :-D What does this have to do with pulling a permit in Smithtown??

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Your up late... for a cow. :-)

[iwire]

I could not disagree more. Generally the ones who raise the biggest "stinks" are the loafers and the uninspired column shadows. Not the industrious hardworking almighty sidejobbers...

You may well be right, I can understand your point. The hard worker has better things to do with their time. :smile:

That still does not change my opinion that it is wrong for them to side job if they agreed to a contract that says not to.


'Column shadow' :grin: I like that, I have seen a few of those myself.

[iwire]

Your up late... for a cow. :-)

It's almost milking time.

[emahler]

Would you feel better if I put it this way?



I was not aware a customer was any businesses property.

at least that takes away the hypocrisy of that statement...so yeah, I feel better.

[LarryFine]

Your up late... for a cow. :-)He's watching the late moovie.

[iwire]

at least that takes away the hypocrisy of that statement...so yeah, I feel better.

If you have something to say, just say it. :)

I don't see any hypocrisy, 'splain it to me, maybe I will get it.

[brian john]

column shadows

Now I have never heard that before, NICE.