What to do?

[Texhunter7]

Was working on a remodel no permit and the homeowner did not want anything brought up to code as far as plugs and smokies in the rooms. Anything i did was up to code , she wanted no sheetrock or lathe and plaster removed to much cost to redo she said. I ended up cutting some holes and she come unglued on me about the patches and i tried to explain to her no other way. It really got me mad but said nothing what to do now she still owes me money for time invested .

[bradleyelectric]

ask her for a check for work done to date.

[electricalperson]

Was working on a remodel no permit and the homeowner did not want anything brought up to code as far as plugs and smokies in the rooms. Anything i did was up to code , she wanted no sheetrock or lathe and plaster removed to much cost to redo she said. I ended up cutting some holes and she come unglued on me about the patches and i tried to explain to her no other way. It really got me mad but said nothing what to do now she still owes me money for time invested .
tell her your an electrician not a magician. i hear this same stuff all the time and theres nothing you can do about it. people think we can run wires without cutting holes. best thing you can probably do is patch them yourself and she will have to buy a can of paint at home depot. dont be surprised if she argues about the bill too

[Texhunter7]

Thats what i was thinking she is a hard one to deal with though and especially with no permit of any kind she could be in a world of hurt.

[powerslave]

I remember the lady who wanted recessed cans put in and when we started cutting holes for them she freaked out. NEVER underestimate the ignorance of homeowners. I explain every hole we have to make or may have to make before we do any work. I put it in writing that the cuts will have to be made and that they will have to get someone to patch/paint. Then I have them sign it.

This may have to be a learning experience for you as it was for me, but I'll bet you will put it in writing for the next customer.:wink:

[Texhunter7]

I went over everything with her step by step and now i think she got in over her head and is costing her to much money with everyone involved. Well guy's thanks for letting me vent and for the advice .

[mdshunk]

She said no holes, but you made some anyhow. You're screwed, in my opinion. I have done rewires in historical homes where the "no holes" clause is in force, so I simply don't make extra holes. If I can't do a particular thing without making an extra hole, a meeting is held about that fact, we work something out, and we all go from there. I did an apartment building rewire where there was a X number of dollar penalty for every square inch of patching that needed to be done. You pretty much had to do the whole job in your mind's eye to determine how much patching would need done, and add that to the bid to pay for the penalty.

[powerslave]

You pretty much had to do the whole job in your mind's eye to determine how much patching would need done, and add that to the bid to pay for the penalty.

And add to the bill for the PITA factor.

[mdshunk]

And add to the bill for the PITA factor.I'm not sure I'd necessarily call that a pain. Not making extra holes is (or should be) an every day thing for an electrician who does a lot of old work. I know I go months and months in a row without making extra holes for anything, and I do a heck of a lot of old work. I will concede, however, that the present and vintage construction methods in the northeast making doing old work far easier than it would be in FL or AZ, where houses are typically on slabs with flat roofs. That has to be miserable.

[electricalperson]

ive done a job in a historic house and we couldnt make any holes. taken a little extra time to search for ways to fish but me and my helper finished it with making just 2 holes in the closet. taken about 3 weeks to add all the receptacles they wanted. they also had a very small useless crawl space and and equally as useless attic

[powerslave]

Not making extra holes is (or should be) an every day thing for an electrician who does a lot of old work. I know I go months and months in a row without making extra holes for anything, and I do a heck of a lot of old work. I will concede, however, that the present and vintage construction methods in the northeast making doing old work far easier than it would be in FL or AZ, where houses are typically on slabs with flat roofs. That has to be miserable.


I agree. I try to be as least intrusive to customers drywall as I possibly can. I always try to find a way around cutting holes, but alas it can't always be done.

I would guess that here in the midwest we don't have as many "old" homes as you guys out east. The newer homes all have basements and accessible attics.

[growler]

Thats what i was thinking she is a hard one to deal with though and especially with no permit of any kind she could be in a world of hurt.

You mentioned no permit a couple of times there. If the job is not legal why get involved in the first place? If you are doing this as side work ( not as a contractor ) with no permit and no contract then you are the one that could be in trouble.

My advise, keep everything legal and use a written contract with the terms spelled out. If you are going to cut holes make sure it's in the contract as far as who's responsible to repair them. It's allright to explain things but get it also on paper.

Homeowners will even try to talk you into doing illegal work which gives them the advantage at payment time.

[peter d]

I will concede, however, that the present and vintage construction methods in the northeast making doing old work far easier than it would be in FL or AZ, where houses are typically on slabs with flat roofs. That has to be miserable.

I can attest to that, when I last visited my friends on the west coast they naturally wanted some electrical work done, which involved going in the attic. West coast roofs are almost always at a much shallower pitch than "back east" so there is not much clearance up there, and you have to deal with multiple sets of trusses all at different angles to each other. Attics there are not useful for storage at all.

Suffice it to say it is much difference than the balloon framing and lath and plaster on furring strips that I'm used to...out there you have no choice but to make holes.

[ultramegabob]

most of the people that live in the historical district in my area want to completely refinish floors, waynescoat, chair rail, crownmould, paint and wallpaper and then call the electrician in to re-wire and expect no holes to patch... and they are usually the same people who go to antique shops and rummage sales to buy their light fixtures and expect you to hang some beat up old chandelier that they brought in a bucket.... and they are typically cheap, picky buttheads to work for to boot. No thanks, I pass on re-wires anymore.


Hey peter d.... a little tip for working on houses with shallow roofs (you may or may not have tried), sometimes you can get away with removing a section of siding and drill sideways through studs by working from the outside of a house, vinyl siding is especially easy to pop loose and reinstall with a siding tool.

[mdshunk]

Hey peter d.... a little tip for working on houses with shallow roofs (you may or may not have tried), sometimes you can get away with removing a section of siding and drill sideways through studs by working from the outside of a house, vinyl siding is especially easy to pop loose and reinstall with a siding tool.I've had to do that before, but the most miserable one was where I had to take siding off the gable end of the house to cut a hatch to get into the attic. Not so much fun. Turned a 15 minute job into a 2 hour job.

[powerslave]

most of the people that live in the historical district in my area want to completely refinish floors, waynescoat, chair rail, crownmould, paint and wallpaper and then call the electrician in to re-wire and expect no holes to patch...

Ha ha. The dreaded phone call. "We just had our house remodeled. The painters are just finishing up and now we need new receptacles and can light locations." I love it.

[mdshunk]

Ha ha. The dreaded phone call. "We just had our house remodeled. The painters are just finishing up and now we need new receptacles and can light locations." I love it.It's hard to resist the temptation to tell them what the price really would have been if they had called you first.

[powerslave]

I've had to do that before, but the most miserable one was where I had to take siding off the gable end of the house to cut a hatch to get into the attic. Not so much fun. Turned a 15 minute job into a 2 hour job.

Wow. I don't envy you on that one. The worst hatch that I ever had to go up into was a 16"x16" wide one. I was working by myself and it was alot of up the ladder down the ladder. I had to wedge my self up one arm at a time. The goofy thing was that the trusses were on 24" centers and they actually framed the scuttlehole to 16". And it was in a closet.(full of clothes of course)

That was in my thinner days.;)

[powerslave]

It's hard to resist the temptation to tell them what the price really would have been if they had called you first.

I do at least tell them next time call us first.

[peter d]

Hey peter d.... a little tip for working on houses with shallow roofs (you may or may not have tried), sometimes you can get away with removing a section of siding and drill sideways through studs by working from the outside of a house, vinyl siding is especially easy to pop loose and reinstall with a siding tool.

That's a good idea, although don't you have to deal with the underlayment? I've heard that they vinyl side right onto the studs in some parts of the country, but never saw any pictures or the like to prove it.

[brian john]

When I was doing construction I did a 6 story hotel to condo conversion, lady on the 3rd floor was complaining because the GC would not put in a skylight for her after all all the residents on the 6th floor had them. I did not even try to explain.

[powerslave]

When I was doing construction I did a 6 story hotel to condo conversion, lady on the 3rd floor was complaining because the GC would not put in a skylight for her after all all the residents on the 6th floor had them. I did not even try to explain.

You should have told her to opt for the walk out basement as well.:grin:

[ultramegabob]

That's a good idea, although don't you have to deal with the underlayment? I've heard that they vinyl side right onto the studs in some parts of the country, but never saw any pictures or the like to prove it.

yeah, you have to take a sawzall or saber saw and cut a channel and then replace the plywood or celotex, if its foam board subsiding, all you need is a carpetknife, and its a good idea to tape the seams before replacing the siding.

[masterinbama]

We have a lot of vaulted or treyed ceilings around here and slabs on grade. 1 trick I use is to pull the vinyl soffitt down about every 10 feet and use my green fishing sticks. Going around the house adds to my home runs but it beats cutting holes some times. If the house is not vinyl I pull the soffitt vents and fish that way.

[tonyou812]

I'm not sure I'd necessarily call that a pain. Not making extra holes is (or should be) an every day thing for an electrician who does a lot of old work. I know I go months and months in a row without making extra holes for anything, and I do a heck of a lot of old work. I will concede, however, that the present and vintage construction methods in the northeast making doing old work far easier than it would be in FL or AZ, where houses are typically on slabs with flat roofs. That has to be miserable.
I totally agree with marc, I have become pretty good at it as well, and I almost always think of how to do it w/o holes. But if I do make holes I will always explain to the customer first. Sometimes you can add an outlet if you need it to go between two floors. Most people dont mind and some welcome the outlet.

[Minuteman]

When I was doing construction I did a 6 story hotel to condo conversion, lady on the 3rd floor was complaining because the GC would not put in a skylight for her after all all the residents on the 6th floor had them. I did not even try to explain.

Sorry lady -the GC can't install a skylight for you. However, you can be the only apartment in the building with a view of the bottom side their upstairs neighbor's couch. :D

[quogueelectric]

Hey no matter how carefull you are sometimes that dversibit gets loose from you and it did the other day in a log cabin house. I was just lucky where it came out was about the best spot it could have come through. Some wood putty and brown paint and it was fixed. No worries mate.

[bikeindy]

We never make a hole that is not absolutly nessasry if the customer wants done what they ask for. And i always tell them upfront what might have to be done what the best case is and get aproval on any hole that might need to be made. We do a lot of old work stuff, I am one of the buttheads that lives in a historic home so I already understand my customers wishes. I also have a great plaster repair guy who can fix anything for a price.

[bikeindy]

Hey no matter how carefull you are sometimes that dversibit gets loose from you and it did the other day in a log cabin house. I was just lucky where it came out was about the best spot it could have come through. Some wood putty and brown paint and it was fixed. No worries mate.


You should try being as carefull as I am. I know exactly where that bit is at all times. If it has traveled more than 1 3/4" you need to stop and evaluate things.

[winnie]

When I was doing construction I did a 6 story hotel to condo conversion, lady on the 3rd floor was complaining because the GC would not put in a skylight for her after all all the residents on the 6th floor had them. I did not even try to explain.

She wouldn't be able to see the sky, but she could have daylight, for a price:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/household/skyport-fiber-optic-skylight-system-100062.php

-Jon

[emahler]

I actually get a kick out of hearing about illegal sidejobbers getting the shaft by unscrupulous homeowners. Don't know if that is the case, but I suspect it may be.