Your number is way out of line !!!!

[sparky 134]

Person requests a price to hookup the new hottub. Install 30' of 1" EMT in basement, stub out, LB outside, stub up 3' of 1" IMC, install customer supplied spa disconnect panel, install 7' of 1' IMC from spa panel to hottub, change to sealtite.

The hottub requires a 2p30amp circuit and a 2p20amp circuit from the spa panel to the hottub. So we have 3#10's and 4#12's from the spa panel to the hottub.

Install a 20 GFCI receptacle under the spa disconnect panel. Install a 1p20amp breaker in the spa panel to feed the GFCI.

Install 2p70amp CB in the main electrical panel.

My price was $905.00.

The 'other' guy quotes $550.00. I email back, "Material costs alone were $200.00"

I received another email today, "I got another price of $480.00 plus material. Adding $200.00 for material is still only $680.00"

Now I start to think, "Why not just take the first price of $550.00 ? Why waste any time emailing me ?"

I'm willing to bet the other 'guys' are going to install a 50amp feed to the spa panel.

I emailed back, "Those are good prices. I know the quality of my work and I know what a full-time, licensed, bonded, insured electrical contractor should be charging for this project."

I figured two guys@85.00/hr for half a day, plus 20% markup on material, 5% overhead.

Are my numbers that far out of line ?

[ultramegabob]

Stick to your pricing, the customer is just fishing to see if you will drop a hundred dollars, tell them to hire the lowballer and leave you alone, with as flaky they are acting when you are giving them a price, its hard telling how flaky they will get when its time to pay the bill...

[480sparky]

Tell them "Well, thank you for allowing me to bid on this project. If there's anything I can do for you in the future, just let me know. You've got my number."

It could very well be they call you because 1. the lowballer never shows up, 2. the lowballer never completes the job or 3. the lowballer screws it up so much they'll need you to fix it.

THEN they will see your value.

[LarryFine]

Are my numbers that far out of line? In my opinion, only one: the cost of materials. You probably shouldn't have brought it up, but since you did, you might have said it was higher; at least include your markup any time materials costs are mentioned.

If you could genuinely have gotten in and out "in half a day" (shopping time? permit application?), meaning there would have been time to do another half-a-day job, maybe $500 to $600 + $300 for materials.

So, no, not out of line. Do you know whether your price is being compared to other licensed, etc., electricians (i.e., with business licenses and insurance) or with the proverbial trunk-slammer that pockets everything?

Plus, you've gotta see the final bill, not the low estimate. You also may be correct that the others are picturing running #6 NM all the way to the hottub, no disco, no separate heat and motor breakers.

Suggest the customer get the final price in writing before committing to one guy.

[augie47]

Suggest the customer get the final price in writing before committing to one guy.

also, be sure to incude the fact that your price included an inspection to assure the job was installed to Code standards and safe. Tell them to be sure the "low man" has one included also.

[brantmacga]

i do installations for a regional retailer of spas, and had a very similar situation last friday. i got out to get the job specs, give customer a price of $800. the customer gets extremely irate and says I'm trying to screw them. In his opinion, it "shouldn't cost more than a couple hundred bucks." the people selling these things know what it costs to do the electrical, but it'd probably be hard to sell one if you told the customer it'll cost another grand to hook it up. anyway, i apologized to the customer that material, fuel, and labor were so high. I told them if there was any way I could lower it, I'd be happy to. But unfortunately, with costs what they are, "my hands (are) tied." Moving on. . .

[480sparky]

i do installations for a regional retailer of spas, and had a very similar situation last friday. i got out to get the job specs, give customer a price of $800. the customer gets extremely irate and says I'm trying to screw them. In his opinion, it "shouldn't cost more than a couple hundred bucks." the people selling these things know what it costs to do the electrical, but it'd probably be hard to sell one if you told the customer it'll cost another grand to hook it up. anyway, i apologized to the customer that material, fuel, and labor were so high. I told them if there was any way I could lower it, I'd be happy to. But unfortunately, with costs what they are, "my hands (are) tied." Moving on. . .

Sunrooms are the same thing. The salespeople aren't too concerned about what the actual cost is going to end up being for the end customer. They just want the sale, and let you haggle with the buyer about the electrical costs. I prefer to avoid getting involved with jobs like this.

[peter d]

In his opinion, it "shouldn't cost more than a couple hundred bucks."

Looks like he'll be running his tub off an extension cord.

[brantmacga]

Looks like he'll be running his tub off an extension cord.

believe it or not, he actually asked me what I would charge to set him up a 240v 40A extension cord.

[peter d]

believe it or not, he actually asked me what I would charge to set him up a 240v 40A extension cord.

Wow, I think I'm having a deja vu. :D

[Pierre C Belarge]

In NY, pools and Spas are also required to have alarms installed, another cost added to the spa, which the retailer neglects to mention to the buyer.

I inspected a hottub install yesterday. It was installed outside as per all the electrical and building code requirements. The owner told me the install cost more than the hottub. If he had known that at the time of sale he may not have purchased the unit.
$7,000.00 for the install price, including trenching, permits, fencing, concrete pad and plumbing for a drain.

Send those prices to your customer.

BTW: When I was in business, my customers (except a few good contractors) never saw my breakdown in regards to pricing of work.

[Rich R]

I think your material is actually higher, Did you add in your feeder wires ? that alone is going to be $100 before markup.

150' #4
50' #10

I think the price you gave is right in line or maybe a tiny bit low even, you can't make everybody happy, let them hire the other guy who will probably make a whopping $52/hour on the job before labor and overhead.

When the customer calls him next year because his breaker is tripping he will wonder why this guys phone has been disconnected

[Davids1964]

I think that's a bit on the High side. Two guys to run only 30' ft. of conduit half a day. Also let the home owner pull the permit.

[Minuteman]

Person requests a price to hookup the new hottub. Install 30' of 1" EMT in basement, stub out, LB outside, stub up 3' of 1" IMC, install customer supplied spa disconnect panel, install 7' of 1' IMC from spa panel to hottub, change to sealtite.

The hottub requires a 2p30amp circuit and a 2p20amp circuit from the spa panel to the hottub. So we have 3#10's and 4#12's from the spa panel to the hottub.

Install a 20 GFCI receptacle under the spa disconnect panel. Install a 1p20amp breaker in the spa panel to feed the GFCI.

Install 2p70amp CB in the main electrical panel.
I think your numbers are inline for the method you have chosen. The tub you describe sounds like a Hot Spring/Tiger River. They use the 2p30 & 2p20 as well as the #10's and #12's. Not sure if any other manufactures do as well.

Normally, we run 6/3 Romex as far as we can, and then change to PVC and/or Carflex liquidtight. I use a 2p50 for the feeder, and if needed a 1p20 can still be installed in the spa panel (as all loads are noncontinuous and the actual amp draw on the pump and heater are far less than the rated amps). I have been installing almost two dozen of these a year for the past 3 years without any complaint.

That being said, it sounds to me like the guy was emailing you back in an effort to price shop. He must have received a good referral about you, but wanted a "bargain" price. I hate that. My price is my price. Good for you for not changing yours!

[iwire]

[QUOTE=Davids1964]Also let the home owner pull the permit.[/

In many areas that is not an option, where I am a licensed electrician is the only person that can pull an electrical permit.

[emahler]

I think that's a bit on the High side. Two guys to run only 30' ft. of conduit half a day. Also let the home owner pull the permit.

30' through a basement - what else is in the basement?
to the exterior, to mount the disco - any bushes to work around?
pull the wiring, tie in the panel, tie in the disco and the feed to the hot tub...

besides, who said anything about about 2 guys? but assuming 2 guys, i'd bet minimum 1/2 a day for all of that when you add in travel and getting parts...

remember, you are not selling time or labor - you are selling experience and knowledge...if your guys could do it in 2 hrs, should you charge less and give away money? or should you charge for 1/2 a day and make money? maybe give the guys a raise for being so efficient...

i'd say what i'm thinking, but it'll just get bob in a tizzy...since it's a holiday, i'll let him relax:D

[growler]

My price was $905.00.

I received another email today, "I got another price of $480.00 plus material. Adding $200.00 for material is still only $680.00"


That $480 plus materials can be very deceptive. First I think you shorted yourself on the materials calculation. By the time this guy breaks down his materials cost ( he is not going to sell any of this at what he paid for it) and charges an itemized rate for materials and permit then his price may well be higher than yours.

When you itemize materials you don't sell a 50 cent strap for a 20% mark up, the strap cost to the customer will have a 100% -200%+ mark up. so that strap may well cost the customer $2. the same for all fittings. It adds up quick.

Never tell a customer what materials cost you, tell them what they will cost him. I think you are giving him a good price but the customer can't see it.

[bobbyho]

Romex on the inside of the house is a good idea BUT if the hot tub has a light in it (680.23(f)) you have to run the insulated ground wire. That leaves you piping or running MC cable. THAT gets expensive in a hurry.

[Minuteman]

Romex on the inside of the house is a good idea BUT if the hot tub has a light in it (680.23(f)) you have to run the insulated ground wire. That leaves you piping or running MC cable. THAT gets expensive in a hurry.
680.23 (f) is about branch circuit wiring on the supply side. We are talking feeders.

[220/221]

This is one of the red flags you need to learn to recognize and file away for future reference.

I would not have answered his email. He already wasted your time to visit the site and write up the quote. Cut your losses and move on.

Your price was NOT out of line.

When he calls back, i'd tell him that copper has gone up and the adjusted price is $1089.



"I got another price of $480.00 plus material. Adding $200.00 for material is still only $680.00"

$200 marked up 100% is $400, plus $480 is gettin close to your number. Don't even reply to this nimrod.

[growler]

To be fair I can see where a homewoner that sees to quotes, one for over $900 and another for only $550 may have questions.

If he really knew what was going on he would feel better about paying the $900.

There is no question in my mind that the $550 quote was some guy working under the table with no intention of getting a permit ( he really can't afford to ). He may not even be planning on doing a code compliant job ( it happens all the time ). He may not even know what he's doing ( again it happens all the time). So I don't even count that one.

There are only two legitmate quotes and I'm willing to bet that the OP has the cheaper quote for the final bill but the homeowner doesn't understand this. He is being sold a bill of goods and doesn't even know it. The homeowner will learn but it will be a little late to help the OP.

If I were the OP I would E-mail the customer back and ask if the cheap bidder is a licensed and legitimate contractor ( probably not). I would also ask if the other contractor was willing to give confirmed bid price for a completed and inspected job ( again probably not). I would inform him that he can pay a confirmed price or buy a pig in a poke having only herd the squeal.

[480sparky]

To be fair I can see where a homewoner that sees to quotes, one for over $900 and another for only $550 may have questions.

If he really knew what was going on he would feel better about paying the $900.

There is no question in my mind that the $550 quote was some guy working under the table with no intention of getting a permit ( he really can't afford to ). He may not even be planning on doing a code compliant job ( it happens all the time ). He may not even know what he's doing ( again it happens all the time). So I don't even count that one.

There are only two legitmate quotes and I'm willing to bet that the OP has the cheaper quote for the final bill but the homeowner doesn't understand this. He is being sold a bill of goods and doesn't even know it. The homeowner will learn but it will be a little late to help the OP.

If I were the OP I would E-mail the customer back and ask if the cheap bidder is a licensed and legitimate contractor ( probably not). I would also ask if the other contractor was willing to give confirmed bid price for a completed and inspected job ( again probably not). I would inform him that he can pay a confirmed price or buy a pig in a poke having only herd the squeal.

There's the answer right there. You simply state that your work includes all legally-required permits, insurance, etc. etc. If the low-baller doesn't have that, then you're comparing apples to oranges.

[220/221]

If I were the OP I would E-mail the customer back and ask if the cheap bidder is a licensed and legitimate contractor

Trying not to be arguementitive here but what would be the purpose?


To try and get the job?

When someone presents themselves in a manner such as this, I don't want to work for him. Even if I do get the job there will more than likely be issues.



To defend your pricing?

I don't feel the need to defend my pricing. It is what it is.


People like this need to be ignored. They have every right to get quotes and hire whoever they choose but they don't have the right to waste my time.

[growler]

To defend your pricing?

I don't feel the need to defend my pricing. It is what it is.



I don't see it so much defending my pricing as educating the consumer. I wouldn't bother telling him how much the materials cost but pointing out the fact that the other contractor didn't give a confirmed priced is different. He can try to get a confirmed price from the other guy if he wishes. He can do his homework and check out the cheap contractor.

You are never dealing with just one individual you are actually making contact with him and all his friends and relatives ( prospective customers). Even if he hires the other guy and gets screwed he may remember that you warned him and that your company offered the better deal.

This is all part of a long range sales strategy. Make every customer feel important and just because you are not doing business today doesn 't mean you can't do business tomorrow.

Giving a customer a little information so they can make an educated decision is not the same as trying to justify pricing. Electrical contracting is nothing but salesmanship. Ever see an insuance agent say to a customer " this policy is going to be $2000 take it or leave it". They spend all kinds of time trying to figure out ways to make their product look better than that of the competition even though they are pretty much the same.

The other guys are trying to sell based on price alone. To sell a higher quality product may take a bit more effort ( about 10 minutes ). :smile: :smile:

[220/221]

I agree 100% with educating the customer but this particular kind of customer, based on the way I interpeted his actions, was not even worth 10 minutes. He just rubbed me the wrong way. When I see red flags, I take notice.

[Rich R]

I think that's a bit on the High side. Two guys to run only 30' ft. of conduit half a day. Also let the home owner pull the permit.


Are you serious ? last time I checked it was illegal for a homeowner to pull a permit and then hire a contractor to do the work

You think that you can do this job in less than 4 hours ? Let's see,

Ring doorbell
unload materials and tools
open up existing panel (move whatever junk is piled up in front of it)
knockout 1" hole
90 out of panel and run conduit
Drill hole to outside
install LB
Mount disconnect
run 1" conduit towards spa
change over to flex
open spa covers up
stick fish tape in conduit
Lay out wiring and phase it
pull wire through conduit
Install 2pole breaker in panel and connect wire
wire up disconnect panel and breakers
wire up spa connections
install w/p box with GFI under disconnect
install any bonding needed
close up spa covers
close up disconnect panel and mark breakers
close up breaker panel and mark breaker
test spa
clean up basement and spa area
load tools back up
explain to customer what breakers are what
write bill

If you can do all of this in less than 4 hours you are a superhero, and I would also hate to see what it looked like when you were done, keep in mind I'm not even counting getting materials, pulling permit and getting any inspections

[satcom]

Are you serious ? last time I checked it was illegal for a homeowner to pull a permit and then hire a contractor to do the work

You think that you can do this job in less than 4 hours ? Let's see,

Ring doorbell
unload materials and tools
open up existing panel (move whatever junk is piled up in front of it)
knockout 1" hole
90 out of panel and run conduit
Drill hole to outside
install LB
Mount disconnect
run 1" conduit towards spa
change over to flex
open spa covers up
stick fish tape in conduit
Lay out wiring and phase it
pull wire through conduit
Install 2pole breaker in panel and connect wire
wire up disconnect panel and breakers
wire up spa connections
install w/p box with GFI under disconnect
install any bonding needed
close up spa covers
close up disconnect panel and mark breakers
close up breaker panel and mark breaker
test spa
clean up basement and spa area
load tools back up
explain to customer what breakers are what
write bill

If you can do all of this in less than 4 hours you are a superhero, and I would also hate to see what it looked like when you were done, keep in mind I'm not even counting getting materials, pulling permit and getting any inspections

How about his overhead and operating expenses, anyone that claims the job price is high, is most likely not in business. More like someone playing with electrical work part time, with no license, no insurances, and no business smarts, for sure.

[c2500]

Are you serious ? last time I checked it was illegal for a homeowner to pull a permit and then hire a contractor to do the work



Well in SC, it is not illegal. In fact you sign a form saying that if you do hire someone, he/she is to be licensed.

c2500

[220/221]

I think that's a bit on the High side. Two guys to run only 30' ft. of conduit half a day

Running the 30' of conduit is only 1/4 of the job.

Don't forget that you have to get there and back. 2 guys = at least 2 hours even if it's right down the street. More than likely you would at least double that.

Don't forget that he already HAS an hour invested. Hell, I have a half hour in it myself :roll:

[sparky 134]

Strangely enough I have not heard back from the customer. I guess he is too incessed about my price.

I stated to him via email that my price is what a license, bonded, insured ELECTRICAL contractor should charge for this type of project. Obviously his other pricing is from:

1) Someone doing the work as a sidejob
2) A new 'electrical' contractor who has yet to realize the actual cost of doing business
3) The local handyman who has all of the necessary skills to make the hottub work !!

I'm not losing any sleep over this. These days I'm less and less inclined to travel to look at the small jobs. With the present economy there are too many contractors willing to work for ANYTHING, usually less than what they should be charging.

I'm willing to bet the other 'contractors' did not include installing a 70amp feed or installing the 20amp GFCI under the spa panel. They are probably proposing to install a 50amp feed to the spa panel which is the minimum required.

There will always be cheaper contractors than me. That's just the way it is...

[DanZ]

Personally, I always question the low bid and the high bid. I try to find out what the difference is. Some of what I've seen is:

-Low bid buying from Safety Orange or Blue Box without a markup
-Low bid "making it work", not "making it right"
-Low bid bidding code complaint work, not following plans
-Low bid following plans, but not coordinating (pricing cheapest material available that meets specs)

-High bid following plans and code, plus extras
-High bid pricing most expensive materials available

You know, that's the kind of stuff that needs to be on home improvement shows.:grin: ;)

[jimmyglen]

I bid a fair amount of hot tubs and dont get many of them. I think a lot of people dont permit them here and just wire them using Romex.

I will get my code book out - but I thought we had to have an insulated ground running to hot tubs?

maybe this is why I dont get many ;)

the cost of running romex vs MC or EMT is huge in my opinion.

[480sparky]

the cost of running romex vs MC or EMT is huge in my opinion.

What is the cost of losing your license?

[Minuteman]

I will get my code book out - but I thought we had to have an insulated ground running to hot tubs?

maybe this is why I dont get many ;)

the cost of running romex vs MC or EMT is huge in my opinion.

You could run romex to a small panel or disconnect, and then pull an insulated ground in the carflex whip. :smile:

[emahler]

Hot tubs....check manufacturers instructions... Inspectors who know, do.

[bradleyelectric]

Hot tubs....check manufacturers instructions... Inspectors who know, do.

Yes. They are often listen as #6 conductor minimum in the instructions also.

[Joseph Alexander]

I don't know how you can install a hot tub service and sub-panel at that cost (I'm not questioning you) its just that code requires that you use rigid conduit with an insulated ground 680.21. Assembling any length of 1" conduit with LBs and bends, plus 6awg wiring to the panel, then the new wiring for the sub-panel (disconnect) to the hot-tub, as well as the receptacle with 20 feet 680.22 (A) (3) can easily cost you well over 800 dollars. stick to your guns!

[cowboyjwc]

Well in SC, it is not illegal. In fact you sign a form saying that if you do hire someone, he/she is to be licensed.

c2500

Here in CA too.

[Minuteman]

680.42 Outdoor Installation.