Down Payments

[powerslave]

I just finished watching a talk show program on Fox where they were speaking about unethical home remodeling contractors. They had the guy from Trading Spaces on there and he warned everyone about giving any money to a contractor upfront. He said that it was a big red flag.

I do primarily service work but also remodel/additions. Comm. office build outs.
On larger projects I ask for 1/3 down payment, 1/3 after rough in and 1/3 after completion.

How do some of you guys do it?

[peter d]

They had the guy from Trading Spaces on there and he warned everyone about giving any money to a contractor upfront.

Well, they certainly are the authority on contracting, aren't they? :roll:

Pay no attention to such nonsense.

[iwire]

As a customer I have no issue giving the right contractor some money up front.

A sign if my real intention to complete the job.

[powerslave]

That's what got me. Here's a young guy that works for a T.V. network that probably has very little to no experience in entering such contracts yet he was put forth as such an expert.:roll:

[480sparky]

...Pay no attention to such nonsense.

Too bad there's so many that do.

For unknown, new customers, I require a small deposit. Usually 5 or 10%. I tell them I do this in order to secure the manpower and scheduling. If they balk, I explain that I've had too many cases where someone says they want me to do the work, but when the time comes, they've gotten someone else or have decided not to have it done. A deposit just forces them to commit to the deal.

[growler]

I just finished watching a talk show program on Fox where they were speaking about unethical home remodeling contractors. They had the guy from Trading Spaces on there and he warned everyone about giving any money to a contractor upfront. He said that it was a big red flag.


They really should be a little more clear when warning homeowners of an up front payment.

I do agree that if a contractor shows up and wants a large cash payment or even a check to his personal account that's a big RED Flag. I think that is the point they are trying to make ( don't get scammed ).

On the other hand if the contractor has a contract with the homeowner, a permit has been pulled and materials delivered it's time for that first payment. I don't consider this a large payment up front because the job has started.

[Dennis Alwon]

I have never gotten a down payment for a job. I have been in business for 28 years and have only not collected a few hundred dollars. I take percy with me and there is never an issue. :grin:

BTW this is percy-- you know Percy Sledge-- When a Man Loves a Woman.

http://www.kctools.com.au/images/TOOLS/TOOL%20JPEGS/TOOL%20JPEGS%20INC%20DESCRIPTION/15025%20SLEDGE%20HAMMER.jpg

[iwire]

I have never gotten a down payment for a job.

Sorry to hear that, I guess no one trusts you.








<JK> :D

[powerslave]

They really should be a little more clear when warning homeowners of an up front payment.

I do agree that if a contractor shows up and wants a large cash payment or even a check to his personal account that's a big RED Flag. I think that is the point they are trying to make ( don't get scammed ).

On the other hand if the contractor has a contract with the homeowner, a permit has been pulled and materials delivered it's time for that first payment. I don't consider this a large payment up front because the job has started.



That's what made me mad. They didn't differentiate.


I know there are some rotten contractors out there. I have dealt with some of them personally. But what about the unethical homeowners? There should be an Angie's List type site where contractors can go to check the background of their potential customer.

[satcom]

I have never gotten a down payment for a job. I have been in business for 28 years and have only not collected a few hundred dollars. I take percy with me and there is never an issue. :grin:

BTW this is percy-- you know Percy Sledge-- When a Man Loves a Woman.

http://www.kctools.com.au/images/TOOLS/TOOL%20JPEGS/TOOL%20JPEGS%20INC%20DESCRIPTION/15025%20SLEDGE%20HAMMER.jpg

In business for well over 28 years, and we get down payments or every job, including service calls where we get a dispatch fee. You have to remember the business is our only means of income, so we don't treat it like a hobby.

[480sparky]

That's what made me mad. They didn't differentiate.


I know there are some rotten contractors out there. I have dealt with some of them personally. But what about the unethical homeowners? There should be an Angie's List type site where contractors can go to check the background of their potential customer.

If you really want to do that, there is. It's called a credit check.

Equifax (http://www.equifax.com/home/)
Experian (http://www.experian.com/)
TransUnion (https://www.transunion.com/)

[satcom]

If you really want to do that, there is. It's called a credit check.

Equifax (http://www.equifax.com/home/)
Experian (http://www.experian.com/)
TransUnion (https://www.transunion.com/)

It's that easy, to check

[220/221]

50%, most of the time.

[BigDon]

I know there are some rotten contractors out there. I have dealt with some of them personally. But what about the unethical homeowners? There should be an Angie's List type site where contractors can go to check the background of their potential customer.

I read about this company in the Hartford Courant awhile back. It's obviously more for checking up on GCs than homeowners, though.
http://www.forinoreport.com/index.php

[nakulak]

I like the idea of a downpayment - I feel that it solidifies the contract between the two parties. But I also understand the fear of conmen, and when I did that type of work (residential) if the homeowner was skittish then I would accept a check when we showed up to do the job. Here in maryland they have an entity called the home improvement commission which mandates restrictions on any homeowner contracts, including limiting the downpayment to 28%(if memory serves). I think its a great thing to have this oversight because there are too many fly by nights ripping off homeowners, and I think more states should have this kind of licensing.

[ike5547]

I have never gotten a down payment for a job. I have been in business for 28 years and have only not collected a few hundred dollars.

That's been my experience, also.

[Rawls007]

I don't worry about homeowners too much, never had any problems collecting when the job was finished. GC's on the other hand.........

[satcom]

I don't worry about homeowners too much, never had any problems collecting when the job was finished. GC's on the other hand.........


I don't know where these areas are where where homeowners are no problem, but in the area we work, homeowners forget where their check book is, claim the us postal service has the check, my husband makes out the checks, i will send it in the mail, just don't hold your breath waiting, we use to get hung for about 30% of the billing, so we never work with out a down payment or advance credit card pay.

[LLSolutions]

I will always offer a written contract if I request money upfront. Makes the customer feel a bit more secure, giving thousands of dollars to someone you've only known for a fews days or weeks. I've never felt bad about asking for money upfront, it shows a commitment on the customers part. I personally like the 1/3 at signing, 1/3 at some nice midpoint, maybe after a rough inspection is complete if it suits the job and one at the end. 50/50 is ok but its more for you lay out and for the customer. Commercial GC's are another story.

[nakulak]

I don't know where these areas are where where homeowners are no problem, but in the area we work, homeowners forget where their check book is, claim the us postal service has the check, my husband makes out the checks, i will send it in the mail, just don't hold your breath waiting, we use to get hung for about 30% of the billing, so we never work with out a down payment or advance credit card pay.


the wife: my husband writes out all the checks
the husband (different day): my wife has the checkbook

[Minuteman]

I just finished watching a talk show program on Fox where they were speaking about unethical home remodeling contractors. They had the guy from Trading Spaces on there and he warned everyone about giving any money to a contractor upfront. He said that it was a big red flag.

I do primarily service work but also remodel/additions. Comm. office build outs.
On larger projects I ask for 1/3 down payment, 1/3 after rough in and 1/3 after completion.

How do some of you guys do it?
One of the local TV news shows has a segment called "In Your Corner". You know the type. Somebody goes around ripping off people and the News guy goes after 'em. Seems like about once a week they give the same warning about giving upfront money to a contractor.

Like you, I do the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 on larger jobs, especially for a new customer. That's just the way that it is. I can't have that much money setting out on a job waiting to get paid on. We have to have cash flow to survive.

[Sparky555]

I don't know where these areas are where where homeowners are no problem, but in the area we work, homeowners forget where their check book is, claim the us postal service has the check, my husband makes out the checks, i will send it in the mail, just don't hold your breath waiting, we use to get hung for about 30% of the billing, so we never work with out a down payment or advance credit card pay.

Over 20 years our I've lost less than 1% of Gross Receipts to bad debt. However, if someone calls for service and claims not to have cash, a check or a credit card it's usually their Stage 1 of refusing to pay. Time to kick collections into gear. If I was over 10% with collection problems I'd require credit cards in advance.

Dave

[ike5547]

Over 20 years our I've lost less than 1% of Gross Receipts to bad debt. However, if someone calls for service and claims not to have cash, a check or a credit card it's usually their Stage 1 of refusing to pay. Time to kick collections into gear. If I was over 10% with collection problems I'd require credit cards in advance.

Dave

My 'estimate' would be something like .0001% of Gross. I can count the number of people who have screwed me over on one hand.

[emahler]

The % of bad debt will increase exponentially with the addition of employees when it comes to small resi.

[ike5547]

The % of bad debt will increase exponentially with the addition of employees when it comes to small resi.

The contractor I used to work for had the same experience as far as bad debt that I have. Negligible. He expressed it as a small fraction of a percent.

He had up to and approximately 60 employees which tapered down to about ten during the last decade before he retired.

[emahler]

The contractor I used to work for had the same experience as far as bad debt that I have. Negligible. He expressed it as a small fraction of a percent.

He had up to and approximately 60 employees which tapered down to about ten during the last decade before he retired.

small resi service work? or resi construction?

when you do service work, as you grow, you deal with more people...

maybe it's just NY/NJ...

[charlie]

When I was an electrical contractor (1975 - 1980. Yes, I am old http://forums.mikeholt.com/images/icons/icon9.gif), I never collected a down payment. As a homeowner, I have never paid a down payment unless there was specialized material ordered that could not be used elsewhere. If a contractor (including an electrician because I don't do the work anymore) wants a down payment, that is a deal breaker and I will get someone else.

FWIW, I don't watch those home improvements shows. It seems that most of them are doing things that make my skin crawl. :)

[Minuteman]

If a contractor (including an electrician because I don't do the work anymore) wants a down payment, that is a deal breaker and I will get someone else.
Example. GC we work for is adding 2900 ft/2 to an existing home. Our price is just under $16,000 for relocating the service and adding 100 amps and for wiring the addition. GC took a draw before commencing. There is nothing wrong with us taking one from him. :smile:

Now, say you want to hire me for a couple thousand dollar job at our house. No problem. Payment due upon completion. Cash or check will be fine :grin:

[petersonra]

Some contractors like down payments, other don't. i have done it both ways. most of the time for small amounts (like <$1000) I have just paid on completion.

For some larger jobs I have made down payments, for others not.

I do think that a large down payment (like 50%) is a red flag that the contractor needs the front money. I would be real nervous about that after being burned once by a guy that I gave a 1/3 down payment to who went belly up in the middle of the work.

[electricguy61]

California contractor law: Down payment cannot be more then 10% or $1000, which ever is less.

http://www.cslb.ca.gov/Resources/GuidesAndPamphlets/HomeImprovementContractsConsumerGuide.pdf

I seldom ask for a down payment, unless I sense that they're still shopping around, and might cancel the contract.

[shockin]

I never require a down payment. In our area you would be substantially reducing your pool of customers if you only did work for people who would give you a cash deposit. It is just not the norm. We don't have any trouble geting paid at the time of completetion. Yes this means that you will have to carry the cost for a short time, but this is a cost of doing businees and is covered in your price.

Also, I agree with what Charlie said, as a home owner I would never give a down payment. A contractor that needs a cash deposit to purchase materials is not the guy I want to hire. I know that his supplier will give him at least 30 days to pay for the material after he buys them. If he can't cover his labor for a couple weeks until he is finished, his company can't be that stable.

I have built a number of homes, and I have never paid until 100% complete, or a rough-in draw and trim draw in the case of the plumber or HVAC.

I suppose maybe it's a regional thing - luckly people in my region are the trustworthy type.

[satcom]

While reading some of the posts, I get the sense, we have a lot of guys on here that have some strange ideas, of how a business operates.

[powerslave]

I suppose maybe it's a regional thing - luckly people in my region are the trustworthy type.


What region are you in?

Just asking to get a feel for what regional practices are out there.:smile:

I know the law is also different in each state.

[petersonra]

While reading some of the posts, I get the sense, we have a lot of guys on here that have some strange ideas, of how a business operates.
I have a couple of overgrown bushes I wanted to get moved. I had one moved a few years ago, and it worked out good, and I just hate to cut down a full gorwn bush.

Guy comes out today, tells my wife minimum of $800 to move the two bushes with his machine.

I figure I could dig them out by myself in a couple hours.

[iwire]

I figure I could dig them out by myself in a couple hours.

So do it, but don't expect a business to charge what you can do it for. :smile:

Or if you can get an insuranceless handyman to do it.

[drbond24]

I have a couple of overgrown bushes I wanted to get moved. I had one moved a few years ago, and it worked out good, and I just hate to cut down a full gorwn bush.

Guy comes out today, tells my wife minimum of $800 to move the two bushes with his machine.

I figure I could dig them out by myself in a couple hours.

There are enough lazy people that this guy probably gets good business with his machine. Most wouldn't want to spend a couple of hours digging.

This is even further off track, but when I lived in Virginia a female friend of mine wanted a tree cut down in her yard. She called a tree-cutting service and they wanted several hundred dollars just to come cut it down and leave it laying in her yard. I have a chain saw and a pickup truck (both are requirements when one is born in West Virginia) and I charged her $250 to cut it down and haul it off. I just took a day off work and doubled my money for that day, plus got firewood as a bonus.

[satcom]

So do it, but don't expect a business to charge what you can do it for. :smile:

Or if you can get an insuranceless handyman to do it.

Just up the street, we hear a loud bang and boom, they hired a handyman to take down the tree, no insurance coverages, after all what could happen, who knew the tree would take out half the house, and destroy two cars in the neighbors driveway, look at the good side, no deaths or serious injuries, this time.

[petersonra]

Or if you can get an insuranceless handyman to do it.
Not a bad idea. Lots of handyman type services in the paper.

[petersonra]

There are enough lazy people that this guy probably gets good business with his machine. Most wouldn't want to spend a couple of hours digging.

This is even further off track, but when I lived in Virginia a female friend of mine wanted a tree cut down in her yard. She called a tree-cutting service and they wanted several hundred dollars just to come cut it down and leave it laying in her yard. I have a chain saw and a pickup truck (both are requirements when one is born in West Virginia) and I charged her $250 to cut it down and haul it off. I just took a day off work and doubled my money for that day, plus got firewood as a bonus.
My BIL cut down a tree in my front yard. Cut the trunk into firewood sized chunks. I had to get it out of the yard, and clean up. N/C. Not even beer. And he supplied the chain saw.

[boboelectric]

I like 1/2 down when 1/2 done before 30 days.

[emahler]

I have a chain saw and a pickup truck (both are requirements when one is born in West Virginia) and I charged her $250 to cut it down and haul it off. I just took a day off work and doubled my money for that day, plus got firewood as a bonus.

just curious....how much did it cost your company for you to do this? or does it not matter...

[speedypetey]

Also, I agree with what Charlie said, as a home owner I would never give a down payment. A contractor that needs a cash deposit to purchase materials is not the guy I want to hire. I know that his supplier will give him at least 30 days to pay for the material after he buys them. If he can't cover his labor for a couple weeks until he is finished, his company can't be that stable. That is absolutely NOT the point.

I used to feel the same way about down payments. Then after several of my close contractor friends and other folks scolded me for not getting down payments I saw the light.

I don't need the money. I have more than enough credit to buy whatever I need, and more than enough capital to keep working for a few weeks without any income if need be.

It is all about trust and good faith. You give me 20% down on good faith and I will then have the good faith in you that I will get paid for the rest of it.
This is of course on medium to large jobs. A $1000 one day job I'm not going to ask for two checks in the same day.
There are just as many cooked clients as there are crooked contractors out there. So many %#@* folks looking to screw you out of anything they can.
"That receptacle is not the shade of ivory I was expecting. I'm not gonna pay you the last $500 I owe you".





I have built a number of homes, and I have never paid until 100% complete, or a rough-in draw and trim draw in the case of the plumber or HVAC.

I suppose maybe it's a regional thing - luckly people in my region are the trustworthy type.If you think not paying for something as large as a home until it is done is trust, you are nuts. Actually, the guys getting strung out for several months without pay are NUTS!!

I am NOT a bank. I will NOT finance your job. Logical payments in logical increments is, well......LOGICAL. And this includes a small down payment.




<end_rant/opinion>

[drbond24]

Just up the street, we hear a loud bang and boom, they hired a handyman to take down the tree, no insurance coverages, after all what could happen, who knew the tree would take out half the house, and destroy two cars in the neighbors driveway, look at the good side, no deaths or serious injuries, this time.

The tree I took down was small enough and far enough out in the yard that I couldn't have hit anything with it if I had tried. :)

just curious....how much did it cost your company for you to do this? or does it not matter...

I was working for Uncle Sam at the time. They didn't care whether I was there or not as long as projects were done by their due date.

[shockin]

That is absolutely NOT the point.

I used to feel the same way about down payments.

It is all about trust and good faith. You give me 20% down on good faith and I will then have the good faith in you that I will get paid for the rest of it.

<end_rant/opinion>

I appreciate your view point, but I disagree. I fail to see how a 20% downpayment insures that you will recieve the other 80% at completion. You do have the "law" on your side. You have a signed contract or proposal, which will hold up in court, you also have the ability to file a lien if necessary. Shouldn't that be enough insurance that payment will be made.

I should also note that if it was the norm around here to recieve down payments, I would gladly accept them. Who dosen't want the cash sooner.

[shockin]

That is absolutely NOT the point.

If you think not paying for something as large as a home until it is done is trust, you are nuts. Actually, the guys getting strung out for several months without pay are NUTS!!

<end_rant/opinion>

When building homes, which is something I do on the side, I don't know why you have the impression that guys are getting strung out for months without payment. In most cases I am happy to meet them on site the day they are finished with a check and a lien waiver. Maybe thats why they show up every day until they are finished. No finish = no money.

I believe I actually show a great deal of "TRUST" in them when I hire them to come do the work without soliciting bids. Most subs are ones I use on a regular basis and trust. For example the plumber is T&M.

Let me ask you this. On larger contracts 500K - 2M do have different terms then I am able to get from generals. Talk about stringing someone out, generals are terrible about payment. There is zero chance of getting a down payment.

How do you handle T&M work. If it's a few day project, and a customer just calls you to come do the work, do you still get a down payment. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or argumentive, I'm just curious.

[satcom]

The tree I took down was small enough and far enough out in the yard that I couldn't have hit anything with it if I had tried. :)



So if the tree cut slipped, and injured or killed you, that is ok? you also put the property owner at risk, when you take on jobs without insurance.

[drbond24]

So if the tree cut slipped, and injured or killed you, that is ok? you also put the property owner at risk, when you take on jobs without insurance.

Point taken, but I don't think that way. This wasn't a business I was operating (although at the prices she was quoted, I sure thought about it), it was just one friend helping another. Yes, I could have been hurt but that is true pretty much anytime. Driving, flying, hunting, even sitting on the couch watching Law & Order is dangerous if you consider the inactivity is allowing you to gain weight. I don't burden myself with stuff like that.

[growler]

She called a tree-cutting service and they wanted several hundred dollars just to come cut it down and leave it laying in her yard. I have a chain saw and a pickup truck (both are requirements when one is born in West Virginia) and I charged her $250 to cut it down and haul it off. I just took a day off work and doubled my money for that day, plus got firewood as a bonus.

This story would be much better if you had noticed the potential profits made but cutting trees for $250 ea. and selling fire wood. The next day you had went out and started you own tree service and now you are a very successful tree service owner and still only charging $250 a tree.

I can go over and change out one panel for a friend for say $100 in labor but that means nothing. The minute I start to try and make a living changing out panels I have to charge more. It's the same with a tree service. You did a favor for a friend and that's Ok but you can't make a living cutting and hauling trees at $250 apiece.

You should check out what a tree service has to pay for insurance and workman's comp. It's considered hazardous. :grin:

[jimmyglen]

this turned into a tread about trees


OK to you guys who dont get a deposit

can I hire you to build me something? I could have you strung out and coming back over and over and over until the job is "done to my satisfaction" and I would never need a bank!

I have wired custom homes that they take over a year to build (no joke)

the men get paid every week and the supplier gets paid every month etc etc


and if you didnt jump when I say jump then I could hire the next guy to take over and never pay you anything - hopefully ou be 90 percent roughed in

[480sparky]

....and if you didnt jump when I say jump then I could hire the next guy to take over and never pay you anything - hopefully ou be 90 percent roughed in

I then file a lein on the property and you cannot close and move in. I could also sue for breach of contract and recover damages.

[shockin]

and if you didnt jump when I say jump then I could hire the next guy to take over and never pay you anything - hopefully ou be 90 percent roughed in

480 is correct. Why would you get the work done for free or with an extended payment schedule just because you didn't make a down payment?

We've been involved in custome homes that take 1 year to complete as well. But our rough in takes a month, then we get paid. Wait 6 months, then the trim may take 6 weeks, then you get paid again. These homes are always T&M for us. Do require a deposit on T&M?

[growler]

But our rough in takes a month, then we get paid. Wait 6 months, then the trim may take 6 weeks, then you get paid again.


I have to ask. How come it takes 6 weeks to trim out a house that it only took a month to rough? :grin: :grin:

[shockin]

I have to ask. How come it takes 6 weeks to trim out a house that it only took a month to rough? :grin: :grin:

Funny how that works - It seems that once you have money, you loose the abilty to stick with the decision you made the day before.

No matter to me - their money will soon be mine. But wait, I didn't get a deposit so I guess I will be doing the house for free...

[satcom]

Funny how that works - It seems that once you have money, you loose the abilty to stick with the decision you made the day before.

No matter to me - their money will soon be mine. But wait, I didn't get a deposit so I guess I will be doing the house for free...

I think it's just great, that you have eniough money to give some of it away. along with your time, most of us are not that well off.

[iwire]

At this point the it has turned into a grounds up grounds down discussion. No right or wrong answers just peoples preference of how they want to run their business.

It makes no sense to me to tell a guy who has a 25-30 year successful business he is doing it wrong and does not know how a business works.

People go into business to do things their own way and if they are not breaking the law and are happy, who are we to criticize?

It's a big country and each area is going to do things in different ways.


FWIW the local power company takes $125 up front and puts it in a bank each year I get the interest from it. I will never get it back as long as I am their customer.

I could have said no but I like having electricity. :grin:

[shockin]

I think it's just great, that you have eniough money to give some of it away. along with your time, most of us are not that well off.
Alright,

Lets do some math. Lets say my price for that house is $30K. Fixtures provided by the owner. Again these are very rough numbers with some extreme rounding.

Rough-in = 60% & Trim = 40%. Therefore the rough-in is $18K. Roughly 40% of that is material. That material doesn't have to be paid for becusae you have 30 - 60 days to pay for it. So that leaves me with 10,800 in labor.

If I had take cash out of saving to cover that labor what could I have earned in interest on that 10.8K for 30 days. About $45.00.

[480sparky]

...I could have said no but I like having electricity. :grin:

Solar power (PV), wind generation, gas-powered generators........

Heck, even the Professor on Gilligans' Island made a bicycle to charge the radio batteries. :grin:

[growler]

If I had take cash out of saving to cover that labor what could I have earned in interest on that 10.8K for 30 days. About $45.00.


So you're saying that an EC should look for a builder, find a barrel and bend over and smile.

That's got to be the worst business advice I have ever herd. No one should ever take money out of savings to cover a job, just for the fun of it or to help the builder out.

If the builder can't afford to pay for the job he should go back to McDonalds. A sub should never finance a job. Can I get an Aman.

[peter d]

Solar power (PV), wind generation, gas-powered generators........

Heck, even the Professor on Gilligans' Island made a bicycle to charge the radio batteries. :grin:

Don't forget that people got by on gas lanterns or less for an awfully long time before electricity came along...

But how would Bob be able to post without electricity? You might as well just ask him to kill himself. ;) :D

[speedypetey]

How do you handle T&M work. If it's a few day project, and a customer just calls you to come do the work, do you still get a down payment. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or argumentive, I'm just curious.Most of my T&M work is for established customers so payment is typically a non-issue.
If the job is expected to be big, like several weeks, or big enough with a new customer that I want to have some security, then I have a T&M contract with terms and conditions.

[shockin]

So you're saying that an EC should look for a builder, find a barrel and bend over and smile.

That's got to be the worst business advice I have ever herd.

Calm down. I'm saying people do business this way because there is plenty of profit in this work. Believe me, the customer more then pays for the $45.

Look at it this way. Some guys would spend 4 hours doing a takeoff for this job X $75.00 an hour is $300. Just to end up being 6th place out of 12 bidders. That seems like an even worse business model.

I know the terms ahead of time and build it in to my rates. We aren't losing money, sometime you have to give up $45 to make $5,000.

[growler]

I know the terms ahead of time and build it in to my rates. We aren't losing money, sometime you have to give up $45 to make $5,000.

So you are providing job financing for a higher rate. That I can understand. But if you are just bidding heads up, low bidder gets it then I can see no reason to finance the job. If you are talking about 10K with minimal risk over a 30-60 period for a return of 5K profit, well that's different. That would make you kind of an investor in the project and may well be a good investment.

Everyone has to have some sort of an angle, the higher the risk the higher the price. If they want a reasonable price then they have to lower the risk factor, that's where that down payment comes in ( lower risk, bird in hand).

[480sparky]

.....But how would Bob be able to post without electricity? You might as well just ask him to kill himself. ;) :D

Bob reads his email by candlelight. :grin: :grin:

[peter d]

Bob reads his email by candlelight. :grin: :grin:

And his computer runs on lamp oil. ;)