A print engineering ?

[jmsbrush]

When a Gc that you work with on a regular basis, gives you a print and wants you to give him and estimate (Residential) and when he gives you the print it has no electrical on it. What do you do in those cases. He wants me to engineer the print. He said make it code minimum. I can do that of course, but that takes time.. Do you guys charge for this?? Do you add this on to the contract price, or do just look at it as, its just part of the business.

[bikeindy]

It takes time to lay out the house too, you charge for that right. So build your time for adding the electric to the plans in your quote. Don't give him any electrical drawings unless you are being paid for it upfront. Simply use the plans to come up with your code minimum price. I suggest a walk through with the homeowner to get the extras that they will surely want.

[ohm]

I get a lot of "print engineering". I fact I sometimes even CAD up an electrical print from the basic layout or even from a walk-thru w/ the owner. Sometimes my drawings are submitted to other EC's for a price and sometimes my drawing is the only drawing on the job and it's used to obtain the building permit.

I still do it to clarify just what I intend to do for the price I bid and very sedom do I lose the job. Sure it's a risk but it also blows everyone out of the water who quotes on a brown paper bag.

On a fire station I submitted a full set of drawings, bill of materials and load calculations. When the bids were being opened my price was in line and my bid generatd tremendous interest (and confusion) since it include documentation which everyone else was charging an extra $5000 for. Needles to say I got the job.

I've been told the Chief Electrical Inspector in my county has carried my work around the Permit Office sayig how great it was.

[iwire]

I get a lot of "print engineering". I fact I sometimes even CAD up an electrical print from the basic layout or even from a walk-thru w/ the owner. Sometimes my drawings are submitted to other EC's for a price and sometimes my drawing is the only drawing on the job and it's used to obtain the building permit.

Why in the world would you provide that service for free? :confused: :confused:

[bkludecke]

Boy this one hits home. I remember well back when I was a naive and trusting sole and did the engineering, prepared a bid and found out the GC used my engineering to solicite other bids. Charge for the engineering separately or simply give the GC a design/build bid based on NEC minimums.

BTW. Most folks don't realize what NEC minimum can mean. Years ago a spec-builder was insistant that I wire a small house to NEC minimum. I explained that the NEC did not even require a disposal outlet or switch and he said not to put it in then. It turned out that he ended up having to move into the house himself and his wife called to complain that the plumber was adding a disposal and there was no place to plug it in or a switch. I told her about the instructions I had from hubby. She had me come and add the wiring at great expense to her and hubby (finished 1 story house on slab)

Somedays are just better than others.

[growler]

BTW. Most folks don't realize what NEC minimum can mean.

Real good point.

If you don't have a stairway then you don't need a single 3-ways switch, no fan boxes, no dish washer, no disposal, no under cabinate lighting, no overhead lights in most rooms. One TV and one phone jack.

I would make sure this guy knows what he's asking for before I spent any time on the bid. Most builders think code minimum just means no frills but they do expect some basic items that are not code minimum.

[jmsbrush]

I do allot of work for this guy. I know ,there I am being trusting! Good point about code Min. Here's another ? about resi. There is a master closet thats 24 x8 Thats pretty big,Well anyways,. Does that closet have to have Recpts 6' from the door and 12' thereof? Or any closet for that matter?

[emahler]

On a fire station I submitted a full set of drawings, bill of materials and load calculations. When the bids were being opened my price was in line and my bid generatd tremendous interest (and confusion) since it include documentation which everyone else was charging an extra $5000 for. Needles to say I got the job.



I would be more impressed if everyone else was giving themselves away, and you charged $5000 for it...and got the job...

you just got the job by working for free, that's not that hard...

[Dennis Alwon]

I do allot of work for this guy. I know ,there I am being trusting! Good point about code Min. Here's another ? about resi. There is a master closet thats 24 x8 Thats pretty big,Well anyways,. Does that closet have to have Recpts 6' from the door and 12' thereof? Or any closet for that matter?

If it is a closet than it does not need receptacles. It may be worthwhile putting one but it is not required.

[roger]

I know residential drawings are one thing, but when it comes to commercial drawings some state require a licensed PE to seal a design.

In these states I think it is illegal to charge a fee for designing without being a PE or at least employed by a PE.

Roger

[emahler]

Actually, it's not illegal to charge for a design. It's just not a legal design until a PE signs off.

Does that make sense?

[iwire]

Actually, it's not illegal to charge for a design. It's just not a legal design until a PE signs off.

Does that make sense?

No because most of the EEs here will tell you they can not sign their name to your work.


But it seems to happen quite often.

[EBFD6]

No because most of the EEs here will tell you they can not sign their name to your work.


But it seems to happen quite often.


Anything's possible.....................for a fee!:smile:

[bbaumer]

No because most of the EEs here will tell you they can not sign their name to your work.


But it seems to happen quite often.

Signing off on someone elses design that is not of your employ is illegal, in Indiana anyway.

I think we've had this discussion before on here........too lazy to look up the law again but I am sure I posted it in another thread a few months ago.

[satcom]

No because most of the EEs here will tell you they can not sign their name to your work.


But it seems to happen quite often.

Ok have been thru this many times here in Jersey, the print or design must be signed and sealed by a licensed PE, you can sign and attach your seal to the print and it would not be illegal, but the AHJ may not accept it and your insurance carrier would not be happy knowing your doing design work with out a license or coverage to do designs.

[roger]

Actually, it's not illegal to charge for a design. It's just not a legal design until a PE signs off.

Does that make sense?

Not true, in many cases it is illegal.

Even if a law is not an issue, their ethics may be.

Roger

[roger]

I should have said, an engineer signing off on some elses design may be an issue with their ethics. IMO, this can be likened to selling an EC license.

OTOH, if an engineer was contracted to review, correct, and seal a set of drawings, this would be another story.

Roger

[j_erickson]

No because most of the EEs here will tell you they can not sign their name to your work.


But it seems to happen quite often.

But here in MA a EE is not required. A qualified individual (licensed electricain) can do the design.

[emahler]

Not true, in many cases it is illegal.

Even if a law is not an issue, their ethics may be.

Roger

Roger,

i agree with you about the ethics...but there is nothing illegal, anyplace, about you paying me for my time to come up with a design....

that being said, without the proper licensing, that design is worthless...but you are legally allowed to pay me for it...

does that make more sense?

[roger]

Roger,

i agree with you about the ethics...but there is nothing illegal, anyplace, about you paying me for my time to come up with a design....

I agree that if I want to pay you I can, but if you are charging a fee for a design I must ask, can you provide substantiation that you are legally allowed to charge a fee as a designer?

that being said, without the proper licensing, that design is worthless... Agreed

but you are legally allowed to pay me for it... I can agree with that but, as a blanket statement, are you allowed to charge for a design. (remember that we are talking about more than one area here)

does that make more sense?

Maybe. :wink:

Roger

[bbaumer]

OK, just to re-hash what has been discussed on here before, per Indiana law, which is the same and/or similar to many state BUT NOT ALL:]

1. Not all designs must be stamped by a "design professional". A design professional is a licensed engineer or architect, but MAY require submission to the state for design release.

2. A PE cannot stamp someone elses work unless that person is of their employ and direct supervision.

Here's a link to the previous discussion:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=97859

[ohm]

Why in the world would you provide that service for free? :confused: :confused:

As I said it's risky but it's a good way to get your foot in the door and at least for me I usually get the job and many others later w/o even having to do a competative bid.

As for doing design w/o a PE license, I've worked for major engineering & construction companies for most of my life as a lead designer. My boss was a PE and his boss had a PE in all 50 states. They would seal my designs (and those who worked for me) all day long. My last three jobs were over $450M each and we never had a problem.

[bbaumer]

.......

As for doing design w/o a PE license, I've worked for major engineering & construction companies for most of my life as a lead designer. My boss was a PE and his boss had a PE in all 50 states. They would seal my designs (and those who worked for me) all day long. My last three jobs were over $450M each and we never had a problem.......

Perfectly legal and typical. See my item #2 above. You were/are of their employ.

Not enough PE's out there to do all the design work. Many engineering firms have several unlicensed designers and only 1 or 2 PE's on staff. In fact, other than one man show's like myself you'd be very hard pressed to find a design firm that only had PE's doing the design work. Most have more unlicensed designers than PE's.

What you CAN'T do is sell your stamp. eg: Contractor XYZ takes his design drawings to Mr. ABC, PE who has no affiliation with XYZ and asks ABC to stamp them for him. Illegal, at least where I'm from.

Now, there are ways around it but they involve ABC pretty much re-designing the job to make it his design and not XYZ's.

[active1]

Why not just call it a plan review fee? Consultation charge? Or if you really felt bold say your charging proposal fee. I know, no one elce charges for this.

I know one box store charges a site survay fee to get a written price on a hone generator. My guess is they are not a survayor. Just fancy words to say no free estimates.

[sparky 134]

I get a lot of "print engineering". I fact I sometimes even CAD up an electrical print from the basic layout or even from a walk-thru w/ the owner. Sometimes my drawings are submitted to other EC's for a price and sometimes my drawing is the only drawing on the job and it's used to obtain the building permit.

I still do it to clarify just what I intend to do for the price I bid and very sedom do I lose the job. Sure it's a risk but it also blows everyone out of the water who quotes on a brown paper bag.

On a fire station I submitted a full set of drawings, bill of materials and load calculations. When the bids were being opened my price was in line and my bid generatd tremendous interest (and confusion) since it include documentation which everyone else was charging an extra $5000 for. Needles to say I got the job.

I've been told the Chief Electrical Inspector in my county has carried my work around the Permit Office sayig how great it was.

Seems to me you did a lot of work for free. JMO.

[tkb]

But here in MA a EE is not required. A qualified individual (licensed electricain) can do the design.

They have to be the contractor doing the installation if they do the design.
You cannot design for someone else if you are not an EE.

[coulter]

But here in MA a EE is not required. A qualified individual (licensed electricain) can do the design.
That's a really broad statement. I read through the thread but can't tell if there are limitations. Does this apply to all structures, or just residential?

carl

[cadpoint]

...I read through the thread but can't tell if there are limitations. Does this apply to all structures, or just residential?
carl
My suggestion is for everyone intersted in this subject to use their favorite search engine and seek out their respective State rules!

In most cases it'll be a dual search one for Architectural, and one for Engineering. Use ______ Board, _____ commission, General Law for Arch., their names and combination of names go all over the place, across this great land.

[j_erickson]

That's a really broad statement. I read through the thread but can't tell if there are limitations. Does this apply to all structures, or just residential?

carl

It applies to all structures, but as Tim pointed out above, it can only be done if you are also performing the work on the structure.

edit: It is covered under MGL C.112 SS81R.

[j_erickson]

I tried to edit, but got timed out.

The MA building code 780 CMR 116.2.1 basically says that for a building with at least 35,000 cubic feet enclosed, plans must be prepared in accordance with MGL 112 S81R, which states:

(The pertinent portion is in red.:smile: )

PART I. ADMINISTRATION OF THE GOVERNMENT


TITLE XVI. PUBLIC HEALTH


CHAPTER 112. REGISTRATION OF CERTAIN PROFESSIONS AND OCCUPATIONS


REGISTRATION OF PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERS AND OF LAND SURVEYORS


Chapter 112: Section 81R. Construction


Section 81R. Nothing in said sections shall be construed to prevent or to affect:—
(a) the practice of any other legally recognized profession including the practice of architecture as defined in this chapter and the practice of any trade, including, in connection with the practice of the electrical, plumbing, heating, ventilating, air conditioning, refrigeration and all other trades, the preparation of plans, specifications or shop drawings by any person, firm, partnership, corporation or association practicing any such trade, for work to be installed or being installed by the same person, firm, partnership, corporation or association preparing such plans, specifications or shop drawings;
(b) a person not a resident of and having no established place of business in the commonwealth from practicing or offering to practice therein the profession of engineering or land surveying, when such practice does not exceed in the aggregate more than thirty days in any calendar year; provided, such person is legally qualified by registration to practice the said profession in his own state or country in which the requirements and qualifications for obtaining a certificate of registration are not lower than those specified in said sections;
(c) a person not a resident of and having no established place of business in the commonwealth or who has recently become a resident thereof, from practicing or offering to practice engineering or land surveying therein for more than thirty days in any calendar year, if he shall have filed with the board an application for a certificate of registration and shall have paid the fee required by said sections; provided, that such person is legally qualified by registration to practice engineering or land surveying in his own state or country in which the requirements and qualifications for obtaining a certificate of registration are not lower than those specified in said sections. Such practice shall continue only for such time as the board requires for the consideration of the application for registration;
(d) the work of an employee or a subordinate of a person holding a certificate of registration under said sections, an employee of a person practicing lawfully under clause (b) or (c) of this section, or an employee of a firm, co-partnership, corporation or joint stock association engaging lawfully under clause (f) of this section; provided, such work does not include final designs or decisions and is done under the direct responsibility, checking and supervision of a person holding a certificate of registration under said sections or a person practicing lawfully under clause (b) or (c) of this section;
(e) the practice of officers and employees of the government of the United States while engaged within the commonwealth in the practice of engineering or land surveying for said government;
(f) the practice of engineering or land surveying in the commonwealth by a firm, co-partnership, corporation or joint stock association; provided, that the person in charge of such practice by such firm, co-partnership, corporation or joint stock association is a professional engineer or land surveyor, holding a certificate of registration under said sections;
(g) the performance of engineering work or services by employees of a corporation engaged in manufacturing, research or development operations, which work or services are performed in connection with the research or development activities of, or the manufacture, sale, installation, maintenance, repair or service of the products of, such corporation, or of its parents, affiliates or subsidiaries; provided, that such research or development activities which are not related to the manufacture, sale, installation, maintenance, repair or service of the products of such corporation, or of its parents, affiliates or subsidiaries, are not primarily in connection with the construction of fixed works which are to be made available for use by the general public;
(h) the practice of landscape architects, city planners and regional planners, in so far as their work consists in the consultations and preparation of master plans of parks, land areas, sites, organized groups of buildings or communities, or the preparation of detailed plans and the supervision of planting, grading, paving, and such structural features as fences, steps, walls, minor pools, garden structures and minor utilities normally included as part of their work;
(i) sales personnel from recommending applications to specific uses of products for which they act as sales representatives;
(j) the performance of engineering work or services by any person employed by an insurance company or by its agents, its affiliates or subsidiaries, or the performance of engineering work or services for insurance inspection and actuarial bureaus, provided such work or services in either case are incidental to the operation of an insurance company;
(k) the work of an owner or managing agent of a building or any employee of such owner or agent making alterations or repairs to such building or supervising the same, or of a person engaged by such owner or agent to perform work of any other legally recognized trade exempted under clause (a) of this section;
(l) the performance of engineering work and services by a person, firm or corporation subject to the jurisdiction of the department of telecommunications and energy which work and services are performed as part of their employment and for the benefit of such person, firm, or corporation; or
(m) the performance of engineering work and services by employees of the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority which work and services are performed as part of their employment and for the benefit of the said authority.

[BigDon]

Why not just call it a plan review fee? Consultation charge? Or if you really felt bold say your charging proposal fee. I know, no one elce charges for this.


In many states the PE cannot just review a design and stamp the drawing. The design must be done under his supervision. He may, however, comment on the design in a separate report, and stamp that report.

[brian john]

Time is money.......

[gndrod]

When a Gc that you work with on a regular basis, gives you a print and wants you to give him and estimate (Residential) and when he gives you the print it has no electrical on it. What do you do in those cases. He wants me to engineer the print. He said make it code minimum. I can do that of course, but that takes time.. Do you guys charge for this?? Do you add this on to the contract price, or do just look at it as, its just part of the business.

In answer to working for a GC on a regular basis, marking up a set of floor plans usually only takes less than 30 minutes. I use a set of a 'canned' material list that is filled in based on the markup. This gives a rough-in idea for material costs and labor time estimates. On custom resi being done requires client unique inputs for finish extras, whereas, I use a standard canned set list for spec homes for minimum NEC in addition to what the GC is used to installing.

It is easy to markup a plan set especially for corrections done by the architect. Reason for this is...most architectural residential drawings lack correct wiring symbol layouts on the plans. This helps the GC on his project cost estimate and gives a better view of how the house is going to be electrically wired.

In the case of responding to a request for bid on non-regular basis contractors, I give a canned sheet specifications for a plan-set using only an example of the kitchen layout (on 8.5 x 11 copy sheet) with markup symbols. A note is included on the copy that a complete electrical plan set will be available upon a contract signature.

All-in-all, bid time required from a formal electrical plan-set takes a couple of hours which is a small investment in winning a bid. Add the additional half hour for a plan-set lacking an electrical floor plan is worth the effort.

I hope this helps. rbj