Licensed contractors, may I have your opinion please

[brantmacga]

Scenario:

Even though the state has required licensing for years, a small county did not start "enforcing" the law until jan. '02.

That law was never really enforced and permits have been sold to unlicensed persons in all construction fields since the inception of the inspections dept.

A new inspector was hired a year ago, and is now strictly enforcing the law and giving out cease and desist orders. Unlicensed contractors who have been in business for 20+ years are having to close the doors and look for jobs, sending their employees to do the same thing. However, some unlicensed individuals have been allowed to continue working because of who they are, their connections, etc. . . The current inspector and previous were in a heated argument over this recently.

Not everyone within the county gov't agrees with what the inspector is doing, even though he's simply enforcing the laws set by these county officials and protecting the county from liability.


Do you think its fair? Would you be comfortable suggesting that the county make exception for unlicensed individuals with an already established business be allowed to continue working as long as they have proper insurance, and suggest they have to purchase bonds (as many counties I work in already require)?

Consider that although you're probably losing some work from these guys, its work you may not get anyway because once they see your price, a licensed contractor, they're going to get their neighbor's nephew's buddy to come do it for $20 and glass of sweet tea.

What say you?

[quogueelectric]

I say give them 2 yrs to comply grandfathered for 2 yrs until they can pass the test. If you cant pass the test you shouldnt be a contractor period.

[brantmacga]

I say give them 2 yrs to comply grandfathered for 2 yrs until they can pass the test. If you cant pass the test you shouldnt be a contractor period.


that's a good suggestion and something i'll pass on.

the only negative I can think of is they might have trouble meeting the apprenticeship qualification. the people some of these guys worked under were around before licenses were required; and you have to apprentice under a licensed contractor. you now have to have signatures of 3 licensed electrical professionals on your application, which would probably be very hard for them to obtain. i'm not sure what the other trades are doing but i'm sure its similiar.

[quogueelectric]

How did other states do it fairly??

[brantmacga]

How did other states do it fairly??

I don't know; i've always been against unlicensed work when it was required to have the license. for some reason i find myself sympathetic for these folks, some of whom i'm friends with and have passed along good jobs to me. i feel bad they've been in business all this time with no problems, and now a business that supported not only their family, but the families of their employees is being forced to close. i know the law is the law and that may end up being the final say. just seems wrong considering the county has done nothing for years until now.

[growler]

the only negative I can think of is they might have trouble meeting the apprenticeship qualification. the people some of these guys worked under were around before licenses were required; and you have to apprentice under a licensed contractor. you now have to have signatures of 3 licensed electrical professionals on your application, which would probably be very hard for them to obtain. i'm not sure what the other trades are doing but i'm sure its similiar.

If they are now to comply with state requirements then the state board could choose to allow some other proof of competence other than apprenticeship under a licensed contractor. An Example would be having a local business license for a trade for more than 5 years. They didn't really require much when they grandfathered in the old group back in the early 80's.

I'm sure that if they can prove they have been in business for 20 years they would let them take the test. Contact the state board.

[brantmacga]

If they are now to comply with state requirements then the state board could choose to allow some other proof of competence other than apprenticeship under a licensed contractor. An Example would be having a local business license for a trade for more than 5 years. They didn't really require much when they grandfathered in the old group back in the early 80's.

I'm sure that if they can prove they have been in business for 20 years they would let them take the test. Contact the state board.

that's probably what they need to do. they need to come up with a solution quick because its about to get ugly.

[nakulak]

I would go straight to the media and make the govt officials look like the jerks that they are. There is nothing worse in a government than to have favoritism and laws which are enforced haphazardly and inequitably.

[Minuteman]

I would say, that the unlicensed contractors need a "licence provider" on staff to be accountable to the state. Many legitimate companies have to have someone come in to be the guy with a licence.

[ItsHot]

Just because an area does not have a building inspections department, does not make it right for a company to operate without a "state" license. If your area does not have a highway patrol office, can you still operate a motor vehicle without a drivers license. Yes! but is it legal?:-?

[benaround]

Even the IRS gives you one more chance to make it right!! How hard would

it be for this small county to let it be known that by this date xx/xx/xxxx the

law will be enforced , so get your ducks lined up. Jan 02 , wow, is this the

town of Procrastination ?

Still, in my book, you don't hurt people like that.

[infinity]

How did other states do it fairly??

Way back when New Jersey started licensing they simply gave a license to any who could prove that they had been working as an electrician for a certain time period. This allowed guys who were in business for many years to continue without any sort of penalty. After a certain date everyone else had to take and pass a test. Wasn't a bad system since it allowed current contractors to keep their businesses open and provided for licensing for all future contractors.


Regarding the OP there should be some compromise worked out to keep guys who have been established in business up and running.

[Brady Electric]

This is pretty sticky
I like what brantmacga, benaround, and itshot had to say
what minuteman said is how I started in business years ago
Sometime its hard for my to sympathize because I had to jump threw the hoops
Although when I first started in Greensboro, N. C. the county inspections department had laxer laws than the city
I think since the town government started this, someone in charge should step up to the plate and make the right decisions.
Maybe since you brought this up for discussion something will be done
Good luck to all those involved
Semper Fi Buddy

[DanZ]

Still, in my book, you don't hurt people like that.

That's what happened 20+ years ago in the rest of the US, and most of us are getting along just fine! Grandfather exemptions would allow person's who have been contracting prior to the enforcement of local laws the chance to obtain a license without fulfilling all the requirements of licensing. (e.g. they just have to pass the test and prove they are code competent, not work under someone for X years.)

On a somewhat related note, my father, God bless him, decided to fix the leaky shower in his house. It's been leaking at the valve since he moved in 5 years ago.

Instead of hiring someone with a license to come in and tell him it would be $300-$500 to fix it, since you can't get the parts, he figured out a way to remove the valve himself. Then, when he couldn't find gaskets, he made some. When he reinstalled the valve, he cracked the plastic seat washer behind the valve.

Then, he hired the cheapest plumber in the phone book to come take a look at it...to cut and cap the line running to the bath room, the plumber showed up without ANY tools, or ANY plumbing supplies. Then 2 hours of T&M (about 1 1/2 hours at Safety Orange, trying to find parts to cap the line) he told my dad that he hasn't done many of these, so he would be willing to try to install a new shower assembly T&M, and advised my dad to call a couple of other plumbers (names withheld) because he was sure my dad would love their prices.

I asked my dad why he didn't hire a licensed, bonded, insured plumber from the start, and his response was "I don't like unions". I tried explaining the difference between licensing (proving you're competent at your chosen field) and unions...but he couldn't grasp it.

I think you may have more issues at hand than just how to get a license. There is definitely going to be a period of adjustment and education needed to help people see why licensing is important.

Good luck, and God speed.

[220/221]

Unlicensed contractors who have been in business for 20+ years are having to close the doors and look for jobs,

They could simply get licensed.



Things change and we adapt. That's why we are at the top of the food chain.

[EBFD6]

Even though the state has required licensing for years, a small county did not start "enforcing" the law until jan. '02.


Your first line says it all.

The law is what it is, and just because the previous inspector was not doing his job enforcing the regulations properly, does not excuse "electricians" blatant disrespect for the law.

I would not feel bad for these guys going out of business, as they have been operating illegally for 6 years. These rules do not go into place overnight with out debate and/or controversy, so I'm sure these guys were most likely well aware of what they were doing and continued anyway.

[ceb58]

Your first line says it all.

The law is what it is, and just because the previous inspector was not doing his job enforcing the regulations properly, does not excuse "electricians" blatant disrespect for the law.

I would not feel bad for these guys going out of business, as they have been operating illegally for 6 years. These rules do not go into place overnight with out debate and/or controversy, so I'm sure these guys were most likely well aware of what they were doing and continued anyway.

I agree with you, the op stated the STATE has requried the licence. It would be different if there were no state laws on the subject and it was left up to the individual counties whether licence were requried. Also it is hard to believe that the contractors only worked in one county for their 20 year run. How did they get by working in other counties that did enforce the rules?

[bikeindy]

How about that a guy runs his business for 20 years with no interference from the Government but now his wonderful government will burden him out of business. got to love your government down there making life "safe" for people.

[c2500]

I would think the state would step into the mess. Since they issue the licenses, and at least in SC, the state is over local government.

I also would think the county would be very afraid of lawsuits for knowing and willfully breaking state law.

When they revised two of the specialty classifications in SC, residential electrical and plumbing, existing card holders were grandfathered in. New ones had to be tested.

c2500

[j120v]

I work in LaCrosse county Wisconsin. The state is giving unlicensed contractors 5 yrs. to get there business in order. I do believe this is a statewide enforcement. The clock started ticking this year....I think.

[growler]

How about that a guy runs his business for 20 years with no interference from the Government but now his wonderful government will burden him out of business. got to love your government down there making life "safe" for people.

A Georgia state license only cost $75 every two years. I doubt that will burden him out of business.

The reason these counties didn't bother to enforce the license requirements before is that they are rural with not much going on so it just wasn't worth the trouble. If the county had started to require a state license 20 years ago as they should have all those guys would have been grandfathered -in. It would have cost $750 dollars to hold a state masters license for 20 years and I do think they could have made that much extra somewhere along the way. One service change in another county for example.

[growler]

Also it is hard to believe that the contractors only worked in one county for their 20 year run.


That thought crossed my mind also. Who would want to work in just one county for 20 years and never cross the line when all they needed to do was get a license and open up so many opportunities. I think there must be some licensed contractors in the county.

[brantmacga]

That thought crossed my mind also. Who would want to work in just one county for 20 years and never cross the line when all they needed to do was get a license and open up so many opportunities. I think there must be some licensed contractors in the county.

There are very few licensed contractors in this county. I know a couple have ventured outside the county lines but only for un-permitted work.

And they didn't just get by for the past 6 yrs as someone mentioned. What my post said is that they were supposedly going to start enforcing the law in '02; it had never been previously enforced nor did it start in '02. And there were several inspectors that "carried on the tradition" of not requiring licenses to buy permits. That is why the previous and current inspector got in an argument as I mentioned; the previous was unhappy that the new inspector was requiring licenses. At this point though, I don't think they want to get the state involved because the county has been breaking the law also.

[ceb58]

There are very few licensed contractors in this county. I know a couple have ventured outside the county lines but only for un-permitted work.

And they didn't just get by for the past 6 yrs as someone mentioned. What my post said is that they were supposedly going to start enforcing the law in '02; it had never been previously enforced nor did it start in '02. And there were several inspectors that "carried on the tradition" of not requiring licenses to buy permits. That is why the previous and current inspector got in an argument as I mentioned; the previous was unhappy that the new inspector was requiring licenses. At this point though, I don't think they want to get the state involved because the county has been breaking the law also.

That's the best reason to get the state involved. Let's all get real honest for a moment. How many times has it been discussed about the unlicensed "hack" taking work from the legitimate contractor? Many times. All this county and its officials were doing was promoting this activity. Even if these contractors played by all the rules except for getting those pesky license they were still in the wrong. But as stated "some have ventured into other counties for unpermitted work" so what dose that in its self say. I feel bad for the guys working for these contractors but if the contractor had done what was requried of him we would not be having this discussion. I can understand and imagine the heck this new inspector is and will encounter trying to do his job in a good ol boy county, with good ol boy officials and good ol boy contractors.

[brantmacga]

I can understand and imagine the heck this new inspector is and will encounter trying to do his job in a good ol boy county, with good ol boy officials and good ol boy contractors.

from what i have been told, he's getting pounded about it. i haven't had a chance to go talk to him yet to see what's going on. it only takes one phone call around here to get your job taken. i'm hoping it doesn't come to that because he's really trying to do the right thing.

i can't say 100% which way i'm going on this; i just wanted to see what some of you had to say about it.

i'm not going to say anything unless i hear he's about to get canned. right now i think most of what's being said is just to appease certain people and make them think they have a chance of coming out of this okay. i had one guy call me yesterday and said he's going to apply for a job at lowes, while another said he absolutely refuses to get a license.

[wshoard]

How long ago did the state License requirement become effective?

Was it the same time as the Low Voltage requirements back in 85?

Did these guys have the same options to get grandfathered as we did, IE: provide documented proof of X amount of years in the industry?

[e57]

unfair business practices....

[growler]

Did these guys have the same options to get grandfathered as we did, IE: provide documented proof of X amount of years in the industry?


If they have only been in business for 20 Years they probably didn't have the option to Grandfather-in but the people that they worked for learning the trade did. This is the problem with working for an unlicensed contractor, there is no way to log your time in the field working under a master electrician, you may as well work for a handyman.

By not requiring a state license the county not only hurts the customer but the contractors and all of their employees. The young guys working for these companies can't log a single day of experience so even if they learn the trade they are not eligible to get licensed.

Talk about keeping young people in the trade. It must make them feel really good to know that they have worked for some butt head for years and now have to start over at the bottom.

[wshoard]

Growler,

Do you know when this requirement was put into place?

I know the Low Voltage requirement was in 85.

[growler]

Growler,

Do you know when this requirement was put into place?

I know the Low Voltage requirement was in 85.

I'm not really sure how it worked because I wasn't living in Gerogia at the time.

The state boards for the state license were formed in 1980. One of my friends was one of those to be grandfathered-in and he got his state license in 1982. I'm not sure when the counties decided to comply with the state requirement (I guess some still don't ) . I am sure that the state license has now been available for 27 -28 years now.

These people have had plenty of time to get used to the idea of a license requirement it's not like it sneaked up on them. They should have known for the last 28 years that it was comming.

[brantmacga]

i think it was '85

[benaround]

I don't know about you, but the last 28 years have just flown by to me. :)

[growler]

i had one guy call me yesterday and said he's going to apply for a job at lowes, while another said he absolutely refuses to get a license.

Many people don't exactly like state regulations but the very minute something goes wrong everyone ask the same question. Why didn't the state government do it's job to protect the public.

The best example of this in the last few years happened up in the north georgia mountains. The state decided not to require additional licensing for the operation of a crematory. The job should be easy enough and the customers are already dead so what could go wrong? They made the exception based on the request of just one man that didn't want to get a funeral directors license.

If any of you remember the incident at the Tri State Crematory this makes the case for need of goverment regulations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri-State_Crematory

[brantmacga]

yeh i remember that. i can't say a license would've made a difference there however. i'm sure he fully knew how to operate his business, but he was a crook; taking money for a service he didn't provide. they exist in all facets of business.

[growler]

yeh i remember that. i can't say a license would've made a difference there however. i'm sure he fully knew how to operate his business, but he was a crook; taking money for a service he didn't provide. they exist in all facets of business.


It was the owner of that very facility that didn't want to get a license. If there had been a license requirement the facility would have been shut down. They made the exception because the father that had run the business was an old time grave digger and was getting old and they didn't figure he would be around that long. But the son took over the business.
If the father hadn't died this probably never would have happened.

This is similar in many ways to the situation you have in South Georgia with the electrical license issue. If they allow these businesses to remain open then at what time would a license be required. Sooner or later the old timers die off but then the family just takes over the business and continues to run it as if nothing has changed.

[brantmacga]

This is similar in many ways to the situation you have in South Georgia with the electrical license issue. If they allow these businesses to remain open then at what time would a license be required. Sooner or later the old timers die off but then the family just takes over the business and continues to run it as if nothing has changed.

Yeh that's the truth right there. Its not just electrical licenses either. Most of these guys I'm talking about are a "one-stop-shop". Guys that learned it from their dad's and such. They do the carpentry, plumbing, electric, hvac, painting, etc. . .

You guys have some pretty rural places in the north too, i'm sure some of the same things go on up there.

I was reading the board minutes a couple of weeks ago and read where an inspector from some N.GA. town approached the board saying that some of the new electrical license requirements were making it hard for guys in his county to get licensed. It didn't specifically say what it was.

I just signed off for a buddy of mine in ATL to go take the test; the only difference I saw in the app. was now all of your references have to be licensed professionals, where as before you only needed one class II EC (your employer) to sign you off. I think that is what the inspector was referring to.

That could be a real challenge in a small town. I could've done it but only because I worked for a family-owned business with multiple licenses. If not, that requirement would've been hard to swing.

[cschmid]

I like the fact you just can not sing off in MN..must have verification of time by payroll records..If you are working just to stay busy then you are in business for the wrong thing..Just for the record I am not a business owner I am the signing master for the business..all expenses plus a profit for the business..only do jobs you can make money on no need to wear you and your equipment out for free..unless it is charity work..

[brantmacga]

in GA, you're supposed to have a 4-year apprenticeship or 3/yrs w/ 2/yrs of accredited classroom education. You have to put all this information on your application, but no records have to be attached. I've only read of two or three license sanctions applied when someone was caught lying about their experience; but the only way that could happen is if someone turned them in.