My tip of the day

[hey_poolboy]

I don't know if this is an original idea or not, but I thought I'd share my success.

Recently I was looking for ways to cut time on jobs. I work alone 99% of the time. When roughing a house with the load center in the basement, I always burn a lot of time pulling HR's. Here is my fix, and so far it works GREAT!

I bought two packages of different colored marking flags and bent a loop in the wire on the end. I drop one color through for switch height HR's, and one for Receptacle height ones. I also make any other notations on the flag with a sharpie. I can then set my spools up downstairs, make a mark on the wall for each slack allowance that I want and pull and staple to my hearts content. After I'm done, or when my legs are falling asleep from the stilts, I run upstairs, and push them in the box, staple, and pull the flag.

Hey, don't make fun, it works for me! :grin:

[brantmacga]

hmm. it sounds like its no fun to work in the land of basements. we don't know what those are in south GA.

[quogueelectric]

Hey if it works for you I think it is great! At least you are constantly trying to improve That says a lot of your character.

[jmsbrush]

Pool Boy do you like working with those stilts?

[SiddMartin]

Hey if it works for you I think it is great! At least you are constantly trying to improve That says a lot of your character.

Good point, I agree

[mdshunk]

Great tip! Surveyors marking flags are dirt cheap.

A third color for 2nd floor home runs?

[ultramegabob]

Surveyors marking flags are dirt cheap.




and they can still be re-used;)

[hey_poolboy]

I love the stilts! The only time I can't use them is on cathedral ceilings. Even on the highest setting I can't quite reach. Other than that I do all of my "ceiling suff" at one time with them on, and breeze right through. No ladder to move around!!!

[hey_poolboy]

A third color for 2nd floor home runs?

Yes, in the event that's needed.

[j_erickson]

I pull all my homeruns through the first and second floors and drop right over the panel.

But your idea sounds good for running them through the basement.

[dnem]

I pull all my homeruns through the first and second floors and drop right over the panel.

But your idea sounds good for running them through the basement.

If you use Speedway [plastic gutter] across the basement, you can't beat running thru the basement.

[ultramegabob]

If you use Speedway [plastic gutter] across the basement, you can't beat running thru the basement.

who makes it? do you have a picture or a link?

[dnem]

I drop one color through for switch height HR's, and one for Receptacle height ones. I also make any other notations on the flag with a sharpie. I can then set my spools up downstairs, make a mark on the wall for each slack allowance that I want and pull and staple to my hearts content.

"In my neck of the woods" its common not to have the basement floor poured at the time of the roughs [pumbing, HVAC, elect]. . Sometimes the basement is still a mud pit, other times it's stoned and mostly ready for the pour but still not poured.

Would you attempt the stilts if it's not poured ?

[dnem]

who makes it? do you have a picture or a link?

http://www.speedwayelectricalproducts.com/

[ultramegabob]

http://www.speedwayelectricalproducts.com/

thats pretty cool:smile:

[dnem]

Speedway has these square "bridle" rings that attach to the bottom of the joists, 2 screws per ring. . You slide the Romex thru the rings, just like running phone/comm cables in standard bridle rings. . After all HRs are in, you snap the solid cover over the rings. . Snap it on, walk away. . Looks really professional finish product.

One negative. . Speedway skimped on their coupling length. . When you butt 2 lengths together, the couplings barely cover the end of each piece.

[mickeyrench]

i read here awhile back the way guys wire up homes and the way the wire is placed in the box that they always know which cable is which after the rock has been put in place. can some of you resi guys share your method?

[rustyryan34]

i read here awhile back the way guys wire up homes and the way the wire is placed in the box that they always know which cable is which after the rock has been put in place. can some of you resi guys share your method?


This is how we do it . All the feeds come into the bottom of the box, then just bring in the switch legs in the same order as the switches we go in.

[dnem]

I like your idea for a bottom up approach and it sounds good for a one man band. . But I never did a house with one guy. . I always went with a 2 or 3 man size crew.

On monster size houses when "the push" was on or when work was slow, I'd still run the crew as a 2 or 3, but I'd cut the house into wings and run separate crews per wing. . Some guys like to divide upstairs/downstairs. . But I didn't like that method unless the second floor had its own subpanel. . I liked to set the divide between crews according to panel.

I also always bought 1000' spools and spun them on axles. . Hauling them down into the basement wasn't really considered [plus it was common for the basement floor not to be poured].

For basement panel HRs, I would drill a 2" hole in a 1st floor wall 2x4 bottom cap plate, position my axle as directly above the hole as I could, go down into the basement and mount my 6" pulley on the ceiling joist. . The pull came off the 1st floor spool, thru the 2" hole, around the basement ceiling pulley, across the basement ceiling, and up thru the particular hole that was under that specific HR destination. . One man first floor, one man basement. . After the length was pulled, we spun off enough to hit the panel, cut it and dropped it thru the 2" hole to be spooled in the basement ceiling and landed in the panel later on.

[augie47]

http://www.speedwayelectricalproducts.com/

looks like an open invitation to violate NEC 310.15(B)(2)

[hey_poolboy]

"In my neck of the woods" its common not to have the basement floor poured at the time of the roughs [pumbing, HVAC, elect]. . Sometimes the basement is still a mud pit, other times it's stoned and mostly ready for the pour but still not poured.

Would you attempt the stilts if it's not poured ?

I would do it as long as it's not muddy. Mud and stilts just don't mix, but if it was dry the dirt doesn't bother me much.

[dnem]

looks like an open invitation to violate NEC 310.15(B)(2)

At the linked site

http://www.speedwayelectricalproducts.com/

click on the Product Info red button

take that page down to the bottom and you'll see a blue outline box that says:

Maximum Number of Installed Cables Allowed

Because Speedway is classifies as an open topped Cable Tray, for ampacity you get bounced to 392.11(A)(1) which doesn't require you to derate.

[augie47]

At the linked site

http://www.speedwayelectricalproducts.com/

click on the Product Info red button

take that page down to the bottom and you'll see a blue outline box that says:

Maximum Number of Installed Cables Allowed

Because Speedway is classifies as an open topped Cable Tray, for ampacity you get bounced to 392.11(A)(1) which doesn't require you to derate.

I would have to study to confirm my thoughts. But, initially, I'm still having difficut time buying into that. Since Romex is not "TC" rated, I'm not prone to treat it as a tray cable conductor.
Sounds like smooth sales talk to me (so far)

[electricalperson]

it does say its UL listed and says it passed the tempature test. i think its a really good product. didnt arlington have a product similar to this or is this the same thing?

[ultramegabob]

it does say its UL listed and says it passed the tempature test. i think its a really good product. didnt arlington have a product similar to this or is this the same thing?

Hmmm..... just because somthing is listed to accept NM, does it mean that NM is legal to be used in it? does UL and NEC go hand in hand on this kind of stuff?

[C3PO]

it does say its UL listed and says it passed the tempature test. i think its a really good product. didnt arlington have a product similar to this or is this the same thing?

You are correct, Arlington makes a product very similar to this. They call it "cableway"

[electricalperson]

Hmmm..... just because somthing is listed to accept NM, does it mean that NM is legal to be used in it? does UL and NEC go hand in hand on this kind of stuff?
where in the code book does it say its illegal to use that raceway for NM? wont 110.3B cover that?

[C3PO]

I would have to study to confirm my thoughts. But, initially, I'm still having difficut time buying into that. Since Romex is not "TC" rated, I'm not prone to treat it as a tray cable conductor.
Sounds like smooth sales talk to me (so far)

I agree. I am pretty sure if I built an open top "wireway" like this out of plywood and put 38 runs of 14-2 in it that I would(and should) get red tagged. What is the difference besides a "listing" either way I am piling a bunch of NM cables on top of each other.

[electricalperson]

would it be safe to assume this system falls under 392 cable trays? NM cable can be installed in a cable tray. by the definition of cable tray, cable tray is designed to support raceways and cables.

[augie47]

I am really interested in hearing what more learned folks than I have to say on this. After some study, I realize my concern about TC is not valid.
NM cables are acceptable in Cable Tray. 392.11 (A)(1) seems to say that as long as each cable does not exceed 3 cc conductors then derating doesnt apply.
I am having a difficult time seeing how 310.15 states "bundling" of cables requires derating, but 392..11(A) ststes that in the case of 12/2 or 12/3 NM in "cable tray" derating doesnt apply when they could be the same as bundled..

[j_erickson]

If you use Speedway [plastic gutter] across the basement, you can't beat running thru the basement.

You can if you are in the land of 'strapping'.;) :grin: (or furring for those not familiar with this term.)

[fireryan]

I thought you couldnt run exposed romex in a basement and by the looks of the picture they are doing just that

[fireryan]

You can if you are in the land of 'strapping'.;) :grin: (or furring for those not familiar with this term.)
What does this mean?

[hey_poolboy]

I thought you couldnt run exposed romex in a basement and by the looks of the picture they are doing just that

Code Section?

[dnem]

I thought you couldnt run exposed romex in a basement and by the looks of the picture they are doing just that

You can run exposed Romex as long as you follow the rules [334.10(A)(1)]. . You can't run it exposed when required to be behind 15min rated finish as in most types of commercial buildings [334.10(3)]. . You can't run it above a nondwelling drop ceiling [334.12(A)(2)]. . You can't run it in an air handling space with nonducted cold air returns [300.22(C)(1)].

You can run it exposed other times when you follow 334.15.

[fireryan]

Code Section?
Our inspector doesnt allow it here anyways

[dnem]

I thought you couldnt run exposed romex in a basement and by the looks of the picture they are doing just that

"by the looks of the picture"
Are you talking about the picture on the Speedway website ?
That site shows a basement ceiling which fails under 334.15(C). . The (C) section is even less restrictive than the rest of 334.15. . You can run exposed and you can run midair thruout the joists and even tack the larger Romexs to the bottom of the joists, if you wish.

Once you get out of the ceiling, you still can run exposed. . But you pick up additional code language of "closely follow the building finish or of running boards" [334.15(A)]. . The inspector might also make the interpretation that you need "protected from physical damage where necessary" and require conduit on the wall [334.15(B)]. . He might have certain criteria where only certain wall situations/exposures require conduit. . Outside requires a minimum conduit cover for the first/bottom 8 feet [300.5(D)(1)]. . Inside is open to the interpretation of "where necessary" [334.15(B)]. . In our jurisdiction, we never require basement conduit over wall mounted Romex until you start running it lower than about 4 feet from the floor.

[dnem]

Our inspector doesnt allow it here anyways

Is he "shooting from the hip" ? , the "not in my town" personality or does he actually have authority under law to modify the NEC ?

[j_erickson]

What does this mean?

"Strapping" means 1x3 boards nailed 16" o.c. perpendicular to the joist to which the drywall or blueboard is fastened to. This creates a void where you can install the romex under the joists. So running romex this way is faster imo than through a basement. But you use about 10' more cable per home run than if you dropped to the basement. Unless you pull hr's diagonally as the crow flies.

[LarryFine]

You can if you are in the land of 'strapping'.;) :grin: (or furring for those not familiar with this term.)What does this mean?"Strapping" means 1x3 boards nailed 16" o.c. perpendicular to the joist to which the drywall or blueboard is fastened to. Here's an example of an older strapped ceiling:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/pflo99/SBVVUdoYOaI/AAAAAAAAAHY/QN1TQPojXqA/DSC01164.JPG?imgmax=720

[electricalperson]

in MA its legal to run romex in dropped celings just as long as they are stapled to the top and not dangling on the metal grid

[fireryan]

Is he "shooting from the hip" ? , the "not in my town" personality or does he actually have authority under law to modify the NEC ?
He does not allow more than 2 foot of exposed romex in the basement of a house so I have always done it that way I guess.

[fireryan]

When looking in sec 334.10 where can I find the info when it talks about the types of buildings such as type 1,2,3,4

[electricalperson]

He does not allow more than 2 foot of exposed romex in the basement of a house so I have always done it that way I guess.
how can he make up those rules. an inspectors job is to enforce the NEC not make up rules just because he wants too. unless its a state requirement i would fight that rule. when we wire a house we cant run romex across the beams in the cellar unless they are on strapping. i run my conductors on the sill plate or the large main beam in the middle if that is made of wood and run them nice and neat between the joists.

[electricalperson]

When looking in sec 334.10 where can I find the info when it talks about the types of buildings such as type 1,2,3,4
i believe that might be in the building code but i could be wrong. im also wondering what those mean

[fireryan]

So whenever we do a service on a house he makes us bring the basement up to code which includes removing all romex

[JohnJ0906]

So whenever we do a service on a house he makes us bring the basement up to code which includes removing all romex

Is this an actual legal amendment? Or is this a personal desire?

[fireryan]

Not sure. The last inspector enforced this to.

[JohnJ0906]

Not sure. The last inspector enforced this to.

I'm very surprised no other EC in your area has questioned this.

[electricalperson]

im glad thats not my state

[fireryan]

This must be a local amendment. The concern is people hanging clothes and such from the romex

[chris kennedy]

where can I find the info when it talks about the types of buildings such as type 1,2,3,4

See NEC Annex E.

[fireryan]

See he also doensnt allow romex in a commercial building and I am not seeing this in the code either. Im also not seeing where we cant run romex in garages either

[peter d]

So whenever we do a service on a house he makes us bring the basement up to code which includes removing all romex

Where is this?

[electricalperson]

See he also doensnt allow romex in a commercial building and I am not seeing this in the code either. Im also not seeing where we cant run romex in garages either
you cant run romex in a detached garage unless you sheetrock it

[fireryan]

Where is this?
Northern Iowa

[fireryan]

you cant run romex in a detached garage unless you sheetrock it
Yeah as I read on I see this because of the fire rating but that annex in the back is pretty confusing when describing building types

[peter d]

Northern Iowa


I thought you were going to say San Francisco or some other wacky place. ;)

It sounds like you have a seriously misinformed inspector where you are, or some really dumb local codes.

[fireryan]

This thread has really got me thinking. After looking ino the annex on building types which just gives me a head ache. It is permissible to run romex in a cattle shed or old barn. Am I reading this right

[dnem]

This thread has really got me thinking. After looking ino the annex on building types which just gives me a head ache. It is permissible to run romex in a cattle shed or old barn. Am I reading this right

Don't let yourself get caught up in all of the details of Annex E. . According to 334.10 + 12, the breaking point for Romex is Types 1 + 2 on one side and Types 3, 4, + 5 on the other side.

Notice the wording:

"Type 1 is a Fire-Resistive construction type. . All structural elements and most interior elements are required to be noncombustible." . Example, steel or masonry structure and interior.

"Type 3 construction has two categories: . One-Hour Rated and Non-Rated. . Both categories require the structural framework and exterior walls to be of noncombustible material." . So type 3 interior elements can be wood. . Type 4 is heavy timber. . Type 5 doesn't restrict by combustibility of material, so you can have an all wood structure. . So 3, 4, + 5 can be wood interior.

So Romex shouldn't be in a metal stud building unless it's 1 or 2 family dwelling [334.10(1)]. . Romex shouldn't be in wood stud areas listed in 334.12 (4) thru (8), except assembly buildings with areas/rooms that are nonrated construction [518.4(B)]. . Rooms with occupancy loads of over 50 are rated construction.

That's the general stuff you should be looking for. . If you get something that looks that it might go against those guidelines, then you have to do more research into the construction types and categories to see if it really is a problem.

[fireryan]

So since like an old barn or old cattle building doesnt have concealed walls then you cant run exposed romex becuuse you have no fire rating. Am I reading this right?

[j_erickson]

in MA its legal to run romex in dropped celings just as long as they are stapled to the top and not dangling on the metal grid

This is a very misunderstood MA amendment. (I"m not saying that you do not understand it.:smile: )

But romex is permitted above a drop ceiling as long as it "closely follows a framing member" (I'm paraphrasing as I don't have the amendments handy) Too many electricians run romex as though it were MC cable. We turn down jobs every month because contractors do not fully read the article.