Wire to ground rod cut

[bth0mas20]

A customer said that he has voltage spikes where his lights get brighter and his fans speed up. It happens thru the whole house every once in a while. The power company came out and put a monitor on it and said it was ok.

My first reaction is that it has a loose neutral in the panel.

I checked and they were all tight. I found that the ground wire coming from the rods was cut outside with no wire going inside.

Could this cause the problem?

[mdshunk]

Could this cause the problem?Nope, but it will exaggerate it. You still need to hunt the loose neutral. Could be in the panel, could be in the meter base, or anywhere else on the load side of the PoCo's transformer.

[LarryFine]

Could this cause the problem?Nope, but it will exaggerate it. To add, it certainly shouldn't contribute to the problem. By the way, that open GEC can be hazardous until the real problem is repaired. Don't carelessly bridge it with your body.

A poor neutral connection can be anywhere from the utility transformer to the panel's neutral bus. Monitoring line-to-line voltage only is meaningless for this kind of problem.

The reason we're always so sure when we hear these symptoms is because, for the voltage to rise on one line, it has to drop on the other. We're not that smart; we're just psychic.

[e57]

If building wide - service conductors, meter, main.
Various - other panels... EVEN BRANCH CIRCUITS... If they are large branches that feed all kinds of stuff here and there...

Since this problem will be more prevalent on a large unbalanced load - the larger and more unbalanced the better - bring a few dozen disposable 500w halogen floods or space heaters with you, and put them all on one phase for a while, and then the other. Don't use loads in the building to help you unbalance it if you don't want to buy those things - in fact disconnect them.... The cut ground may actually help locating it - but would suggest re-connecting it when not testing.... Then permanently when you have found the problem.

[ItsHot]

Keep us posted! I'm curious to see what you locate!:smile:

[bth0mas20]

Thank you I will be returning to work on this problem soon when the addition is ready for trim out.

[ptonsparky]

Remember that a loose neutral will affect parts of the house differently. One circuit may go bright while the others dim. L1 to N= 180v, L2 to N= 60v. L1 to L2 = 240v. Are all the lighting circuits on L1? L2? You will need to take voltage readings.

A GEC being cut would not cause the imbalance.

[charlie]

. . . You still need to hunt the loose neutral. . . or anywhere else on the load side of the PoCo's transformer.
As much as I would rather argue with Marc than to agree with him, he is correct. :wink: :)

[ptonsparky]

My problem is with the OPs "...It happens thru the whole house every once in a while..."

[charlie]

My problem is with the OPs "...It happens thru the whole house every once in a while..."
Loose means intermittent. It is not an open neutral. :smile:

[growler]

My first reaction is that it has a loose neutral in the panel.

I checked and they were all tight. I found that the ground wire coming from the rods was cut outside with no wire going inside.

Could this cause the problem?

The last time I had a problem like this I told the home owner that I could waste time trying to trouble shoot the problem or I could take decisive action and just replace the service and ground system. When I looked the situation over the ground system was not good, the meter base really needed to be replaced and the panel was a rats nest. It took one day of labor to make sure the problem was in the power companies court. As far as I know they haven't had any more problems.

It can be a better value for the customer just to take care of everything at once.

[aline]

Has anyone used one of these before?

http://www.arnettindustries.com/images/stories/documents/megabeast.pdf

[mdshunk]

Has anyone used one of these before?

http://www.arnettindustries.com/images/stories/documents/megabeast.pdfYes, I have owned one for years. Most people call them a "Beast of Burden". It's really only a couple hair dryers with a few meters. Nothing you couldn't make for yourself. They're about 2 grand to buy.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n277/mdshunk/BestOfBurdentop.jpg

[220/221]

Several years ago I had this issue.

First step was to call POCO. They did a 1000W load test and said their end was OK.

I replace the main panel which was a tangled mess and needed to be done soon anyway. Nope. Called POCO back and they refused to come back.

Then I checked about 12 jboxes in a nasty insulated crawlspace/attic chasing down a loose neutral. Nothing. I ran a new 12/3 homerun exposed to the affected area and hooked it up. Lights (added from SABC) still go bright when disposal load is turned on. Problem is obviously on the supply side.

This T&M job was getting out of control so I called POCO one more time and they still refused to cooperate. I don't remember how but I managed to get them out again....same guy. This time he actually takes a walk, looks at the transformer and finds an underground jbox about 200' away (1/2 way to the transformer)

Oh....here's your problem right here.

Homeowner spent a crapload of money that they should have. I spent a couple of days that I'll never get back all because POCO guy was being lazy.

[aline]

Yes, I have owned one for years. Most people call them a "Beast of Burden". It's really only a couple hair dryers with a few meters. Nothing you couldn't make for yourself. They're about 2 grand to buy.
I've been meaning to make one of these out of some hair dryers but haven't gotten around to it yet.

In my area we are not allowed to cut the poco tags and pull the meters. I thought having one of these and connecting it on the load side of the meter socket would be a good way to check for problems in the meter socket without having to pull the meter.

My concern would be that if there was a problem with the meter socket could putting this kind of load on it cause a fire or cause the meter socket to burn up, thus creating an emergency situation? I wouldn't want the homeowner or power company blaming me for creating an emergency situation.

In the past I've just had the power company come out and check the meter socket and their connections. I just don't know if how thorough they are when checking these things so I thought it would be nice to be able to check this myself with one of these testers.

[aline]

Several years ago I had this issue.

First step was to call POCO. They did a 1000W load test and said their end was OK.

I replace the main panel which was a tangled mess and needed to be done soon anyway. Nope. Called POCO back and they refused to come back.

Then I checked about 12 jboxes in a nasty insulated crawlspace/attic chasing down a loose neutral. Nothing. I ran a new 12/3 homerun exposed to the affected area and hooked it up. Lights (added from SABC) still go bright when disposal load is turned on. Problem is obviously on the supply side.

This T&M job was getting out of control so I called POCO one more time and they still refused to cooperate. I don't remember how but I managed to get them out again....same guy. This time he actually takes a walk, looks at the transformer and finds an underground jbox about 200' away (1/2 way to the transformer)

Oh....here's your problem right here.

Homeowner spent a crapload of money that they should have. I spent a couple of days that I'll never get back all because POCO guy was being lazy.
This is exactly what I mean and why I've been wanting to get one of these testers. I'm just a little concerned that if I connect one of these up and it causes a problem on their end if they'll try to blame me for creating the problem.

[e57]

if I connect one of these up and it causes a problem on their end if they'll try to blame me for creating the problem.And how exactly would it cause a problem? The load it creates is minor in comparison to what say an AC would be.

[LarryFine]

Homeowner spent a crapload of money that they should have. I spent a couple of days that I'll never get back all because POCO guy was being lazy.
To be honest with you, this should have been determined without spending a penny on any inside wiring. A voltmeter at the service with loads connected should have pinned it down 30 seconds after removing the panel cover.

I had this exact same scenario with a POCO guy. Customer had a couple of bulbs burst and wall-warts burn, POCO came out, turned off the main, measured voltages, and said there are no problems. Duh! With no load?

I went out, turned the main back on, measured voltages, turned the main back off, called a POCO supervisor, and they found the problem at the pad-mount. The house's neutral crimped lug was bad inside the transformer housing.

Oh, the best part? The first POCO guy said that they wouldn't have had a problem if the house had a second ground rod. :rolleyes: Unbelievable! (Apparently, only one was installed when the house was built.)



"Incompetence is the worst form of corruption!" ~ Det. Harve Poole in Electra Glide in Blue

[LarryFine]

Loose means intermittent. It is not an open neutral. :smile:It can still be open, but the "surges" are not always apparent when the voltages are nearly balanced, due to the line-to-neutral loads being nearly balanced.

[aline]

And how exactly would it cause a problem? The load it creates is minor in comparison to what say an AC would be.
Some homes don't have AC. Especially the older homes that most often have the problems with the meter sockets.

Mabe I'm concerned about nothing. I don't think this is very likely to happen. I'd just hate to connect one of these up and see the meter socket burn up and start a fire and be liable for it.

I asked the power company about allowing me to pull a meter in an emergency situation. They told me under no circumstances was I ever allowed to pull their meter or I would be fined and my licence would be taken away. They told me if it's an emergency to just call 911.

[mdshunk]

I asked the power company about allowing me to pull a meter in an emergency situation. They told me under no circumstances was I ever allowed to pull their meter or I would be fined and my licence would be taken away. Yeah, you really need to look into that thoroughly for yourself. You'll be surprised what the real story is. That's about all I can say without getting this post deleted.

[-marty]

I had to troubleshoot a similar problem. Went through most of the steps as others. Loadcenter had a neutral bar on each side. Where the factory connected them together was never tightened. Seems like I've seem notices with loadcenters about screws coming loose in shipping.

[mdshunk]

I had to troubleshoot a similar problem. Went through most of the steps as others. Loadcenter had a neutral bar on each side. Where the factory connected them together was never tightened. Seems like I've seem notices with loadcenters about screws coming loose in shipping.Oh, yeah. Square D is particularly famous for that. The neutral lug has a screw inside it (Torx, if I remember right) that bolts it to the neutral bar. That thing is famous for being loose and causing this problem. It becomes apparent when you try to tighten the lug's set screw a little bit, and the whole lug starts to turn a bit.

[aline]

Yeah, you really need to look into that thoroughly for yourself. You'll be surprised what the real story is. That's about all I can say without getting this post deleted.
Legally I don't see how the power company can put a tag on a meter/main that I bought, that I installed, that I'm responsible for the repair and maintenance of and require me to have them come out and remove their tag so I can gain access to it. How can they keep me from accessing my own property? They own the meter and thats it. Everything else including the riser is mine. I feel if they're going to put their tags on my equipment, so I can't gain access to it when I want, then it should become their equipment and become their responsibility to maintain it.

[iwire]

Legally I don't see how the power company can put a tag on a meter/main that I bought, that I installed, that I'm responsible for the repair and maintenance of and require me to have them come out and remove their tag so I can gain access to it.

You don't have to comply with any power company rules and in turn they don't have to provide you with electricity.


Rules like that are part of the terms of service and have certainly been approved by your areas public utility commission.

[JohnJ0906]

You don't have to comply with any power company rules and in turn they don't have to provide you with electricity.


Rules like that are part of the terms of service and have certainly been approved by your areas public utility commission.

Around here, the POCO owns and installs the meter can (residential)

[220/221]

The first POCO guy said that they wouldn't have had a problem if the house had a second ground rod


LOL....it's a classic fix all.

[e57]

LOL....it's a classic fix all.As if it would fix anything.... 2-10 rods may still not help in the slightest.