Can AHJ Enforce 2008 NEC?

[km5qd]

We pulled a permit on a job in April of this year. The AHJ is telling me that they will be enforcing the 2008 Code which was Adopted by the State of Oklahoma on July 31. The 2005 NEC was the code at the time of the permit.

We have been working on the job prior to July 31st. Is there something in writing that states they can or cannot do this?8-)

[Dennis Alwon]

I cannot believe they can enforce the 2008 since the bid you may have made was based on the 2008. I have never heard a jurisdiction try and pull that one.

[mdshunk]

You'd really have to research your own state's laws, but I always thought that pretty much every state enforced the codes that were in force when the permit was pulled. This is why you often see a surge in permits issued right before new codes are slated to take effect. In your case, I'd spend the minimal fee it will cost to have an attorney check to see for sure and have him send a letter to the AHJ. I'd be really surprised if what they're telling you they're going to do is legal.

[km5qd]

I've looked on the State of Oklahoma's website and CIB website, neither make mention of this situation. OK construction laws are somewhat weak.

The AHJ is in a city we have never done work, he is not happy that we have the job and not one of his buddies. He was making comments to the superintendent that he thought SO and SO had this job. They have one inspector for all trades.

[Minuteman]

The 2008 is going to be hard to enforce in Oklahoma, until they stock TRs on the shelf. :roll:

[nakulak]

In our area, the ahj usually stamps the code in force on the front page of the plans when the permit is issued (as others have stated). However, I have noticed that some states have a law which says that they will enforce the latest version of <a list> of codes, so I suppose that it is possible that some jurisdictions do that, although I would think that it would not be enforceable should it go to court (after the fact). If the code sections are going to cost you a large amount of money, I would consult the ahj (chief bldg official) and if necessary, subsequently your lawyer.

[Minuteman]

Does this jurisdiction have any written amendment or code supplements? I have a copy of the Oklahoma City supplement that says:

Section 18:3 - 18:5
(a) Adopted. The NEC, 2002 addition issued by the NFPA 70... is hereby adopted as the minimum standard for electrical wiring.

FWIW, they decided to skip the 2005, and will start enforcing the 2008 soon.

[km5qd]

Can't change the rules after the game has started.

[s.sparkomatic.r09]

OH YES THEY CAN, I've been down this road, I didn't get burnt, cuz I double triple check. Then I sent a bill for the TR outlets and GFIs.

AFTER that GC had me go in and clean up a bunch of stuff up from the other EC who screwed it up and didn’t finish.

2008 is the dumbest thing I ever heard of, specially in rezi with conduit!!! WHY!!! I mean really AFCI in a conduit house COME ON. STUIPID DUMD. Waste of money. Tamper proof GFCIs are all most 50 bucks. STUPID STUPID DUMB

[s.sparkomatic.r09]

and how do you fix that if you pull rope?

[wbalsam1]

One of the preconditions of the issuance of a permit is that the project as proposed complies with the building code in effect at the time of the issuance of such permit. The properly recognized electrical code will be referenced in such building code.
If a newer electrical standard is being used, it will have been enabled by amending legislation to the building code.
People in the United States are entitled to "due process" and the enacting of an amendment to electrical standards in effect is done by elected officials, not electrical/building inspectors making up capricious "rules" of their own.
If you catch some inspector trying this...spank them very hard...they're a disgrace to our system of laws.

[steelersman]

OH YES THEY CAN, I've been down this road, I didn't get burnt, cuz I double triple check. Then I sent a bill for the TR outlets and GFIs.

AFTER that GC had me go in and clean up a bunch of stuff up from the other EC who screwed it up and didn’t finish.

2008 is the dumbest thing I ever heard of, specially in rezi with conduit!!! WHY!!! I mean really AFCI in a conduit house COME ON. STUIPID DUMD. Waste of money. Tamper proof GFCIs are all most 50 bucks. STUPID STUPID DUMB
you don't have to use a conduit for the afci if it's an afci breaker. if you want to use an afci outlet to protect the circuit instead of the breaker then you need the conduit.

[brian john]

Can he, SURE you can do anything you want. Untill someone says STOP, depending on state laws of course.

[cadpoint]

One of the preconditions of the issuance of a permit is that the project as proposed complies with the building code in effect at the time of the issuance of such permit. The properly recognized electrical code will be referenced in such building code.
If a newer electrical standard is being used, it will have been enabled by amending legislation to the building code.
People in the United States are entitled to "due process" and the enacting of an amendment to electrical standards in effect is done by elected officials, not electrical/building inspectors making up capricious "rules" of their own.
If you catch some inspector trying this...spank them very hard...they're a disgrace to our system of laws.
Well said!
What the date of all this per the issued permit ? Is there contract drawing, sealed ?

[s.sparkomatic.r09]

If the little village wants to take the 2008 on Jan first of 2008 they can. They don’t have to stamp the print, write or tell you. If you don’t check the local codes your bad. I think its dumb, myself, but they started that around here.

I can’t figure why the other guys didn’t know it. The other EC cried, wrote letters and then just didn’t finish.

[s.sparkomatic.r09]

you don't have to use a conduit for the afci if it's an afci breaker. if you want to use an afci outlet to protect the circuit instead of the breaker then you need the conduit.

What.........?

[Minuteman]

went downhill qick from the original post
Back to the OP.

I know that you may know this, but let me remind you. The inspector that told you that the '08 will be enforced on a permit pulled under the '05 cycle may or may not actually be the AHJ. Usually, the actual "authority" is a municipal department and not a person. He may be the jack-of-all-trades inspector, but he has to answer to somebody, and that somebody has to answer to the leadership of the municipality.

This guy is just the first person in the food chain. :grin:

[Buck Parrish]

The inspector that told you that the '08 will be enforced on a permit pulled under the '05 cycle may or may not actually be the AHJ[QUOTE]. /quote]







Oh no, your not saying he was Posing as the AHJ. are you ?:wink:

[Minuteman]

[quote=Minuteman] The inspector that told you that the '08 will be enforced on a permit pulled under the '05 cycle may or may not actually be the AHJ. /quote]







Oh no, your not saying he was Posing as the AHJ. are you ?:wink:
Yep. Met a city inspector once (one of many), who had his own business card printed up. Went something like this: Yea, though I walk through the valley of Engineers, Contractors, and Owners, I will fear no evil. For I am the AHJ.

[iwire]

OK after deleting just 61 off topic and nonsensical posts please continue with the OPs questions. :roll:

[cschmid]

Bob was busy...I believe the inspector can enforce the 2008 as after the code goes into effect here it is enforced right away..the inspector wil be making sure of the changes he wants to be seen right away by telling you in advance..So if the job has drug on for 5 months how long do you expect him to enforce the 2005..

[DanZ]

I'm not sure of the laws in your area, but check the permitted drawing and the permit itself. In at least one place, it should mention the code to be enforced on the drawings. The inspector can not force you to do more than what that code required. He can try, believe me, he can try, but he can't make you do it. If you find the code that was approved on the permit, call the AHJ (Chief Building Inspector? Guy at the top of the food chain of the building department) and talk to them about it.

If they tell you it will be done by the newer code, find out the number or name of the law that allows them to do this.

[cschmid]

man I read a lot about prints and drawings and most all residencial in this area have no prints or drawings..permits are based on dollar amounts..only larger commerical jobs require prints and drawings or permits after a certian dollar amount..but non of the electrical has to be approved before hand just apply for the permit pay the fee and you are good to go..the state runs the electrical and only few areas actually require more stringent rules..but you only pay one permit fee and that is to the state..

Edited to add: the inspector can not force you to comply but you are correct he can try..Yet whats the difference if you are argueing over TR Recps..just do it, it will be cheaper..there are some areas that are major costs but I would bet EI would be more forgiving on a permit in the exchange area..Like I have said before it is normally cheaper to comply then it is to fight it..

[km5qd]

The job will last till june of next year, It was bid and permitted under 2005. I wouldnt figure you can change it in the middle of the game.

[km5qd]

Wouldnt be cheaper in this case 40,000 sq ft College addition

[iwire]

I believe the inspector can enforce the 2008 as after the code goes into effect here it is enforced right away..the inspector wil be making sure of the changes he wants to be seen right away by telling you in advance..So if the job has drug on for 5 months how long do you expect him to enforce the 2005..

In not one of the three states I work would that be true.

The code used is the code in effect at the time of permitting and some of our jobs 'drag out' for 2, 3, 4 years.

[peter d]

OK after deleting just 61 off topic and nonsensical posts please continue with the OPs questions. :roll:

Only 61? It seemed like a lot more. :D

Oh yeah, back to the OP....here in New England the code that was in force at the date the permit was drawn is the code that is in force for the project.

[nakulak]

as I said before, it may well be that ahj's in some areas enforce this. But in terms of contracts and litigation, trying to enforce a new rule on a previous agreement would generally be "ex post facto", and unenforceble to the agreement (without suitable compensation).

[Flex]

Cant you write a change order for whatever will be effected by the 2008 and bill the customer?

[km5qd]

Would be a big change order all circuits are MWBC. I dont think the college would be to excited about it. Around 400 circuits or so.

[peter d]

Would be a big change order all circuits are MWBC. I dont think the college would be to excited about it. Around 400 circuits or so.

Lots of handle ties. If you can't get a CO then fight it tooth and nail.

[iwire]

Would be a big change order all circuits are MWBC. I dont think the college would be to excited about it. Around 400 circuits or so.

I would start going up the chain and get this ironed out.

[Sierrasparky]

I would start going up the chain and get this ironed out.

If it's worth it then I too would go to the boss..

[LarryFine]

Cant you write a change order for whatever will be effected by the 2008 and bill the customer?If they somehow made it stick to enforce a code different from the one approved and permitted, I would do that, and introduce the customer to the AHJ.

[wbalsam1]

In NYS, the building code (and by reference the electrical code) is enacted by elected officials at the state government level. Each municipality has the option of opting out of state-level enforcement by opting into either county-level or town/city level enforcement of this set of state codes.
The only way a town can adopt a more stringent rule or regulation than one that occurs in the state legislation is to go through a request for a more restrictive rule at the state Codes Council level. This is the same for adopting a standard that is more current than the adopted one.
One of the important reasons for this is to stay away from the myriad codes, rules and regulations we once had with our building codes. Many of the big cities had a code and the bulk of the townships had none. There were all manner of inconsistencies and contractors were so confused they didn't know how to bid a job from one town to the next.
We (NYS) went to a Uniform Code and then to the International Family of Codes with New York enhancements.It's finally working. :smile:

[cschmid]

Wouldnt be cheaper in this case 40,000 sq ft College addition

I did not realize you were talking a commercial job..outside of the MWBC,s how much difference is there..I do not why it would be a problem..we do college work regularly and none of the code changes have affected us..

[km5qd]

I would figure that using #10 and 1" emt VS. #12 and 3/4" emt, plus this addition of the 2 extra grounding conductors for each set up would be a considerable cost.

[Flex]

I would figure that using #10 and 1" emt VS. #12 and 3/4" emt, plus this addition of the 2 extra grounding conductors for each set up would be a considerable cost.

unfortunatly for the college its not your problem. definetly would do what larryfine said

[cschmid]

I guess I am still not following you here what is it you are wiring that would require a wire increase and a pipe increase..I do not use MWBC as a rule..so that portion does not affect us..

[km5qd]

Home runs per 2005 9 circuits, 3 neutrals, 1 ground all #12 in 3/4" emt.
Home runs per 2008 9 circuits, 9 grounded conductors 1 ground all #10 in 1" emt.

[Minuteman]

Home runs per 2005 9 circuits, 3 neutrals, 1 ground all #12 in 3/4" emt.
Home runs per 2008 9 circuits, 9 grounded conductors 1 ground all #10 in 1" emt.
You can still use MWBC in the '08, just have to use handle ties. Some people think that 2 pole, common trips is what's required, but you can just tie the handles.

Is this project at the college for dorms?

[km5qd]

No they are mostly Smart Classrooms. LOL would be alot of handle ties:) Each classroom has 15 to 17 circuits.

[Minuteman]

No they are mostly Smart Classrooms. LOL would be alot of handle ties:) Each classroom has 15 to 17 circuits.
Well, if you loose the battle, you can still win the war! That's only 5-6 handle ties per room for a 208Y.

[cschmid]

first of all I thought you were discussing a house and I would of not hesitated to do the TR receptacles but I would of questioned the AFCI on all circuits..now you are telling me it is a college addition and I would be talking to the inspector and the maintenance director or who ever accepted your proposal and I would be having this discussion with them..

as far as the derating and amount of conductors in you pipes ask yourself what is cheaper copper or steel..maybe easier to run 2 pipes..You must remember I also do the maintenance for the college as well..I do not use MWBC except where required..I believe the MWBC cause a higher level of potential for risk to both humans and equipment..

So my suggestion is a meeting with the powers you are answering to and work what is ever necessary..I believe from what I read you are biding engineered documents..so if the engineering was bid on 2005 and it was started well in advance of 2005 I believe you should be able to use 2005..

[peter d]

I believe the MWBC cause a higher level of potential for risk to both humans and equipment..

They're only dangerous to ignorant, unqualified humans, that you are needlessly trying to protect.

[wbalsam1]

They're only dangerous to ignorant, unqualified humans, that you are needlessly trying to protect.

:grin: :grin:

[iwire]

I do not use MWBC except where required..

Thats cool, I install enough to make up for the ones you did not install. :grin:

I use MWBCs absolutely every time I can, they are much more efficient in labor, materials and even electrical costs.

[peter d]

I use MWBCs absolutely every time I can, they are much more efficient in labor, materials and even electrical costs.

Except that time we did the elevator, and the lighting circuits in the fabric place. ;) :D

Just havin' some fun. :)

[km5qd]

I also use MWBC whenever possible, never had a bit of problems. I only run seperate grounded conductors when the prints and specs. call for it.

[iwire]

Except that time we did the elevator, and the lighting circuits in the fabric place. ;) :D

Just havin' some fun. :)

I certainly rember the job, I don't remember the reason I (we) ran 3 neutrals but it worked out as the panel was only single phase. :smile:

[peter d]

I certainly rember the job, I don't remember the reason I (we) ran 3 neutrals but it worked iut as the panel was only single phase. :smile:

Yeah, the funny part was "What, 3 separate neutrals???? I'm so disappointed! I thought this was Mr. MWBC himself." :D :D

[iwire]

OK we should get back on topic or I will have to delete myself in the morning. ;)

[peter d]

OK we should get back on topic or I will have to delete myself in the morning. ;)

CSchmid opened up the MWBC can of worms, not me. ;)

[cschmid]

lol I have figured out that if a man want to stir the pot all you have to do is get into the MWBC..the NEC pass codes with respect to human safety and not necessarily qualified human safty..it does not pass code on cost effective..

edited: you only delete yourself in the morning..wonder if it gets him out of any work..

[Minuteman]

I also use MWBC whenever possible, never had a bit of problems. I only run seperate grounded conductors when the prints and specs. call for it.
Is that the only part of the '08 that would effect this job?

[km5qd]

As far as I know thats all it will affect. I already group my wires together in the panels and j-boxes, so thats not a issue.

[LarryFine]

..I do not use MWBC except where required..I believe the MWBC cause a higher level of potential for risk to both humans and equipment..So you have four conductors entering your house, two hot and two grounded?

[LarryFine]

I use MWBCs absolutely every time I can, they are much more efficient in labor, materials and even electrical costs. Absolutely! It can halve or third the number of cables/conduits/knockouts you have to run/install/use in a panel, and free up neutral-bus terminals.

The last restaurant I wired had every 120v receptacle and lighting circuit run in MWBC's (GFCI recepts, not breakers.)

[radiopet]

We pulled a permit on a job in April of this year. The AHJ is telling me that they will be enforcing the 2008 Code which was Adopted by the State of Oklahoma on July 31. The 2005 NEC was the code at the time of the permit.

We have been working on the job prior to July 31st. Is there something in writing that states they can or cannot do this?8-)

You need to check out your Statewide Building Codes as in Virginia we are on the 2005 NEC however prior to May 1, 2008 we were in the 2002 NEC and once the May 1 , 2008 date came....the state allows the engineer or master electrician submitting plans to choose to design in the 2002 or 2005 NEC for one year...so once May 1, 2009 hits everything will be 2005 NEC.

Might be the same 1 year grace type period in your state...check it out.

[cschmid]

So you have four conductors entering your house, two hot and two grounded?

power company loves MWBC..:grin:

So what portion would you like to discuss the cost savings or what the NEC bases code on safety of the unqualified..

[Minuteman]

power company loves MWBC..:grin:

So what portion would you like to discuss the cost savings or what the NEC bases code on safety of the unqualified..

How about discussing the unqualified. I propose Tamper Resistant panel boards and junction, device, and fixture boxes. If the unqualified try to open one of them, then a shunt trip breaker shuts the whole service down. There you go - fool proof! 8-)

[LarryFine]

....the state allows the engineer or master electrician submitting plans to choose to design in the 2002 or 2005 NEC for one year...Really???? :-? I did not know that! :roll: Statewide, you say? :smile: Cool! 8-)

[LarryFine]

There you go - fool proof! 8-)Not for long - they'll just come out with a new-and-improved fool. :grin:

[Buck Parrish]

km5qd ,
LET US KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. SO WE CAN PUT THIS THREAD TO REST.:smile:

[cschmid]

How about discussing the unqualified. I propose Tamper Resistant panel boards and junction, device, and fixture boxes. If the unqualified try to open one of them, then a shunt trip breaker shuts the whole service down. There you go - fool proof! 8-)


I am with larry just as soon as you come with that they will bread a new style fool..

[Minuteman]

I am with larry just as soon as you come with that they will bread a new style fool..
If we could only figure out a way to keep fools from breeding. :roll:

[cschmid]

I am sure there is a law against that as well..

[LarryFine]

I am with larry just as soon as you come with that they will bread a new style fool..Is that a Kentucky-fried fool? :grin:

[DanZ]

I am sure there is a law against that as well..
Sorry, I have to jump in on this one, why would politicians make a law prohibiting themselves from breeding? It's what they're good at!:grin: And all their constituents wouldn't reelect them...:roll:

Back to the OP, find on the permit, or the drawings, where it says something to the effect of "Permitted, Installed and Inspected under the 200X code", and take that to the HMFIC at the building department, get something in writing from them stating that it shall be enforced in that manner.

[jbfan74]

Home runs per 2005 9 circuits, 3 neutrals, 1 ground all #12 in 3/4" emt.
Home runs per 2008 9 circuits, 9 grounded conductors 1 ground all #10 in 1" emt.

I do not have the 08 code book yet, so I do not understand what the change is.
Why is this a problem, and what has changed?

[cschmid]

Sorry, I have to jump in on this one, why would politicians make a law prohibiting themselves from breeding? It's what they're good at!:grin: And all their constituents wouldn't reelect them...:roll:

Back to the OP, find on the permit, or the drawings, where it says something to the effect of "Permitted, Installed and Inspected under the 200X code", and take that to the HMFIC at the building department, get something in writing from them stating that it shall be enforced in that manner.

LMAO.......

[LarryFine]

I do not have the 08 code book yet, so I do not understand what the change is.
Why is this a problem, and what has changed? It's not any specific code cycle, just the generalization that a job may be designed and priced in compliance with a certain code year, and a code change can alter the requirements enough to change the cost of certain aspects of a job.

For example, the new requirement that all MWBC's have handle-tied handles for manual disconnection. It looks like the only cost is the handle-ties themselves, but a customer might not want to have to de-energize all circuits to kill one.

That means the cost of separate cables or a larger size and/or quantity of conduits (to house the increase in quantity of current-carrying conductors to supply the same loads) would have to be added to the price, plus the added labor.

Or a simpler example: how about the cost of AFCI breakers required in a house? Bedroom receptacles only, all bedroom outlets, or all general-use outlets? The code cycle a job was engineered and/or priced under can affect the cost of a given job.

[jbfan74]

Thanks Larry. It was the change about the handle ties on mwbc that I did not know about. I can understand how that woould change the scope of the job now.

[LarryFine]

Thanks Larry. It was the change about the handle ties on mwbc that I did not know about. I can understand how that woould change the scope of the job now.Again, that's just one example. Another is the difference between "available" and "present" Ufer electrodes.

[km5qd]

I have yet to meet with the inspector. We are almost done with the rough-in. I will discuss matters with him at that time. According to my attorney, this would fall under the "ex post facto law". The inspector will be unable to enforce the 2008 code on this job. I willpost again about this when the inspection is done.

[Minuteman]

Good luck!

[cschmid]

I have yet to meet with the inspector. We are almost done with the rough-in. I will discuss matters with him at that time. According to my attorney, this would fall under the "ex post facto law". The inspector will be unable to enforce the 2008 code on this job. I willpost again about this when the inspection is done.


I am sure if you jump on him with my attorney said you are going to spend some extra cash even if he is wrong..

[Weaver Road]

I have yet to meet with the inspector. We are almost done with the rough-in. I will discuss matters with him at that time. According to my attorney, this would fall under the "ex post facto law". The inspector will be unable to enforce the 2008 code on this job. I willpost again about this when the inspection is done.

km5qd:

As an AHJ (when my signature is on a document for our office, which has statutory AHJ), in CT, I cannot enforce the "new" once the permit is issued on the "old" code. If it's close to a code cycle change, we will have a chat during plan review or permitting to see who's on which base, etc.

In CT, the ultimate answer is the State Fire Marshal or State Building Officials' Offices and their appeal boards. They are the ultimate authority. Any contractor, AHJ, etc. may contact them directly to confrim a question like this. If needed, appeal may be made to them. This incurs less cost then lawyers and letters and such. Once the State speaks up, the local AHJ must and will come in line. Most AHJs I am familiar with are pretty good and may just be making an error in trying to follow the changes too closely.

I'm not saying this will make a loving relationship with some inspectors, but it will settle the question then and there. If the inspector gets grumpy and ratchets up the heat after that happens, get right back on the phone to the state, they are good here about helping out. At least here they are!

Good Luck! :D
Mike

[weressl]

You'd really have to research your own state's laws, but I always thought that pretty much every state enforced the codes that were in force when the permit was pulled. This is why you often see a surge in permits issued right before new codes are slated to take effect. In your case, I'd spend the minimal fee it will cost to have an attorney check to see for sure and have him send a letter to the AHJ. I'd be really surprised if what they're telling you they're going to do is legal.

If it is a large job that requires engineering the job the documentation will most likely reflect the Code in force at the design stage or even more importantly what was in force at the time of the E&D Contract. If the AHJ is unwilling to accept that then it would represent a serious impediment to fair conduct of business therefore impinging on Federal Regulations.

The above is one of the reasons why OSHA did NOT adopt the latest versions of either the Code nor 70E at the time they have issued their latest ruling on 1910 Subpart S.

Something to think about.