article 100

[normbac]

where would the definition of residential kitchen be wondering if a kitchenette (no cooking appliances) is required to have 2 - 20 amp circuits

[480sparky]

Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking. New to the 2008 NEC.

[normbac]

Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent facilities for
food preparation and cooking.

So would it have to have cooking appliances that are permanent

[chris kennedy]

where would the definition of residential kitchen be wondering if a kitchenette (no cooking appliances) is required to have 2 - 20 amp circuits
Sounds like what we would call a breakfast room.

210.52(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

[480sparky]

So would it have to have cooking appliances that are permanent

That's my take on it.

This.....

http://www.code-elec.com/gallerylarge/3za9/Master_Bedroom.jpg

...IMPO is not a kitchen.

[chris kennedy]

That's my take on it.

This.....

http://www.code-elec.com/gallerylarge/3za9/Master_Bedroom.jpg

...IMPO is not a kitchen.
Is that your work? I like the receptacles every 3 to 4 feet.

[normbac]

That's my take on it.

This.....

http://www.code-elec.com/gallerylarge/3za9/Master_Bedroom.jpg

...IMPO is not a kitchen. This is a good example at what state does it become a kitchen

[480sparky]

Is that your work? I like the receptacles every 3 to 4 feet.

One is a phone, another is a Central Vac....

This is a good example at what state does it become a kitchen

There's no permanent facilities for cooking, so I say it's not a kitchen.

[benaround]

That looks like the definition of a kitchen to me.

[480sparky]

That looks like the definition of a kitchen to me.

Unless you are wiring to the '08, then you don't have a definition yet....

[benaround]

Unless you are wiring to the '08, then you don't have a definition yet....

That looks like a kitchen to me.

It really looks like the definition of a commercial kitchen. 210.8(B)(2). 2005

If I had nothing to refer to ( like plans or EI ) I would wire it like a 2008

kitchen or like a similar location 2005. I think that is what norm is asking.

[normbac]

That looks like a kitchen to me.

It really looks like the definition of a commercial kitchen. 210.8(B)(2). 2005

If I had nothing to refer to ( like plans or EI ) I would wire it like a 2008

kitchen or like a similar location 2005. I think that is what norm is asking.
Actually I was just curious because I have to wire a similiar kit in a pool house it has two outlets and I dont see the need for 2-20 amp recepts

[benaround]

Norm, Will it have a refridgerator, micro wave, tv, blender, coffee pot ?

Which two are they going to be able to use?

[wirebender]

That looks like a kitchen to me.

It really looks like the definition of a commercial kitchen. 210.8(B)(2). 2005

If I had nothing to refer to ( like plans or EI ) I would wire it like a 2008

kitchen or like a similar location 2005. I think that is what norm is asking.


Where are the permanent facilities for cooking?

[stickboy1375]

That looks like the definition of a kitchen to me.

It does? How so? Looks like a countertop with a sink to me.

[jimmyglen]

looks like a bedroom to me

[C3PO]

It does? How so? Looks like a countertop with a sink to me.

I agree. If the microwave was built into the cabinet then it would be, but in 480's picture that is not a kitchen.

[SEO]

I agree. If the microwave was built into the cabinet then it would be, but in 480's picture that is not a kitchen.
What if it had an electric stove that was cord connected and not built in?

[DanZ]

Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking. New to the 2008 NEC.
If the microwave has it's own circuit, what's the difference between a microwave as a permanent means of cooking, and an electric range?

I could see this one going both ways, depending on the AHJ, I think.

[C3PO]

If the microwave has it's own circuit, what's the difference between a microwave as a permanent means of cooking, and an electric range?

I could see this one going both ways, depending on the AHJ, I think.

A microwave sitting on the counter is not permanent. If it was a microwave/hood or something like built into the cabinets then it would be considered permanent IMPO.

[stickboy1375]

If the microwave has it's own circuit, what's the difference between a microwave as a permanent means of cooking, and an electric range?

I could see this one going both ways, depending on the AHJ, I think.

so as long as its not a dedicated circuit its not a kitchen?

[DanZ]

A microwave sitting on the counter is not permanent. If it was a microwave/hood or something like built into the cabinets then it would be considered permanent IMPO.
A microwave on a counter with a dedicated circuit isn't much different than a range/stove on a floor with a dedicated circuit. Other than weight. And the cabinetry (usually) being split for a range/stove. But, adding a microwave does show intent.

It looks like the NEC added a definition, but didn't really clear it up.

For the record, I'm playing Devil's Advocate, and trying to see this from the perspective of an inspector, who doesn't like you or your work*. :roll: ;)

*Nothing contained in this message shall be interpreted as personal attack on any person, living or dead. We all know everyone has bad days, and some choose to use their position of power and influence as a tool of the dark side, to make life hard on someone else...

[DanZ]

so as long as its not a dedicated circuit its not a kitchen?
Having it's own circuit shows the intent of a permanent cooking appliance. I know they can be changed out easily, but so can a range/stove. I think it's going to end up being an AHJ call.

[stickboy1375]

Having it's own circuit shows the intent of a permanent cooking appliance. I know they can be changed out easily, but so can a range/stove. I think it's going to end up being an AHJ call.


This one is pretty easy, a microwave on the countertop is not a permanent cooking appliance, :grin: IMSO of course.

[SEO]

The call by the inspector may be right or wrong but it's his call. Our area has a construction board of apeals that can overturn an inspectors call. As long as the inspector is consistent with his interperation and rules the same for everyone their shouldn't be a problem. Give him a call and ask for his interperation of questionable areas.

[C3PO]

A microwave on a counter with a dedicated circuit isn't much different than a range/stove on a floor with a dedicated circuit. Other than weight. And the cabinetry (usually) being split for a range/stove. But, adding a microwave does show intent.

It looks like the NEC added a definition, but didn't really clear it up.


If it is going to be interpreted this way then there are a lot of hotels that are going to have to give each occupant ready access to their OCPD.

[480sparky]

Having it's own circuit shows the intent of a permanent cooking appliance. I know they can be changed out easily, but so can a range/stove. I think it's going to end up being an AHJ call.

Having it's own circuit simply shows the electrician has done his/her homework, and desires to feed the load served with the correct branch circuit. That does not make the microwave itself permanent.

If I can walk into that room (Yes, it is a master bedroom!), no tools, no pry bars, no saw..... unplug the micro and coffee pot and walk out the door with them, they are not permanent. The only two items there that are permanent are the fridge and the sink, neither of which are for cooking. Ergo, no permanent cooking facilities. Ergo, it's not a kitchen. Ergo, no 20a SABCs required.

That said, there is, however, three circuits there.

[peter d]

That said, there is, however, three circuits there.

I guess we shouldn't be surprised. ;)

[DanZ]

If I can walk into that room (Yes, it is a master bedroom!), no tools, no pry bars, no saw..... unplug the micro and coffee pot and walk out the door with them, they are not permanent. The only two items there that are permanent are the fridge and the sink, neither of which are for cooking. Ergo, no permanent cooking facilities. Ergo, it's not a kitchen. Ergo, no 20a SABCs required.
Then an electric range/stove isn't a permanent cooking facility? I'm able to unplug it and walk out the door.:roll: Some are hardly noticeable if the range/stove is at the end of a run.

[haskindm]

This is a perfect example of having a definition add to the confusion. I thought I knew what a kitchen was until the NEC "defined" it, now I have no clue. The counter top is a permanent facility for food preparation, but does it also have to have permanent facilities for cooking (note the use of the word "and" in the definition). What is a permanent facility for cooking? Even a 12KW range just plugs in.... It would seem to me that the installation in the picture is a good example of a place that the NEC would want GFCI protection. There are grounded water supply lines (probably) present. The electrician will have no control over what may be plugged into the counter top receptacles, no way of knowing whether the equipment will be properly connected to a grounding conductor. So it looks like a perfect use of GFCI, yet the way the code is written, it appears that no GFCI is required. This just makes no sense to me....

[stickboy1375]

Then an electric range/stove isn't a permanent cooking facility? I'm able to unplug it and walk out the door.:roll:

I would like to see you walk out the door with a electric range. ;) They are usually fastened to the wall/floor with an anti tip bracket for what its worth.

[C3PO]

This is a perfect example of having a definition add to the confusion. I thought I knew what a kitchen was until the NEC "defined" it, now I have no clue. The counter top is a permanent facility for food preparation, but does it also have to have permanent facilities for cooking (note the use of the word "and" in the definition). What is a permanent facility for cooking? Even a 12KW range just plugs in.... It would seem to me that the installation in the picture is a good example of a place that the NEC would want GFCI protection. There are grounded water supply lines (probably) present. The electrician will have no control over what may be plugged into the counter top receptacles, no way of knowing whether the equipment will be properly connected to a grounding conductor. So it looks like a perfect use of GFCI, yet the way the code is written, it appears that no GFCI is required. This just makes no sense to me....
GFCI is required because of the sink.

[DanZ]

I would like to see you walk out the door with a electric range. ;) They are usually fastened to the wall/floor with an anti tip bracket for what its worth.
I've done it once or twice. I could have shot my brother when he carried the old range down the basement steps, through the basement, and out the door onto the back patio. I had to lug that darn thing all the way around the house to the top of the driveway by myself. Uphill! Seriously, It's uphill, it was a walkout basement. They're seriously supposed to be fastened to the floor?!? SO that's what those parts were!:D :rolleyes:

Back to the OP, is there anything specific we could help you with regarding a kitchenette?

You know, I do love the code. It's like a person, if you torture it enough, you can get it to say almost anything you want!

You know, I do love the code, it's like the bible, someone comes along and tries to interpret it, and someone else comes along and tries to interpret it, and they both have different interpretations!

[480sparky]

FWIW, mini-bars, or kitchenettes, like those in my photo, aren't all that common in spec and tract homes, so it's not a money issue in bidding those types of projects.

They typically show up in high-end homes, where you have the ability to add them into the bid with no problem since there's generally enough money to cover them.

I enjoy the debate, but IMPO, just put the two circuits in, make everyone happy and sleep well tonight.

[LarryFine]

A microwave on a counter with a dedicated circuit isn't much different than a range/stove on a floor with a dedicated circuit. Other than weight. And the cabinetry (usually) being split for a range/stove. But, adding a microwave does show intent.So what do you recommend for a hotel room with a mini-fridge and counter micro?

[LarryFine]

Then an electric range/stove isn't a permanent cooking facility? I'm able to unplug it and walk out the door.This, I gotta see!

(No cheating with dollies, now!)

[wirebender]

If a counter top microwave is a permanent cooking facility, what is a non-permanent cooking facility?

A toaster? A hot plate? What is the difference in these and a micro?

If nothing is a non-permanent cooking facility, why would the code even have the word permanent in the definition?

[LarryFine]

If nothing is a non-permanent cooking facility, why would the code even have the word permanent in the definition?Maybe we need to get "permanent" into Art. 100.

[don_resqcapt19]

CMP 1 tried to take out the "permanent" part of cooking, but it was placed on hold by the Technical Correlating Committee.



1-27 Log #512 NEC-P01 Final Action: Accept
(100. Dwelling Unit)
__________________________________________________ ___________
TCC Action: The Technical Correlating Committee directs that this
Proposal be referred to the NFPA 1 Committee, the NFPA 101 Committee
and the NFPA 5000 Committee for information.
Submitter: John D. Minick, National Electrical Manufacturers Association
Recommendation: Revise text to read:
Dwelling Unit. One or more rooms arranged for the use of one or more
individuals living together, providing complete, independent housekeeping
purposes, with space for living facilities, including permanent provisions for
living; eating, living, and sleeping, eating, : facilities for cooking, and
provisions for sanitation.
Substantiation: The NEC TCC requested that Panels 1 and 2 and SAF/BLDRES
form a task group to revise and correlate the definition of Dwelling Unit.
The task group met twice via teleconference calls along with numerous e-mails
to resolve the issue. It is the task group’s opinion that this one definition will
meet the needs of the NEC, NFPA 1, NFPA 101, and NFPA 5000 with regard to
dwelling units. The task group believes that this definition does not change the
intent of any of the codes, while at the same time simplifies and clarifies what
a dwelling unit is and correlates the four documents. Members of the task
group included David Hittinger and Donald King and Susan Porter from NEC CMP-2,
and James Lathrop and Harry Bradley from the SAF/BLD-RES committee.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12Lanny McMahill from NEC CMP-1,

__________________________________________________ ___________
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------

1-28 Log #689 NEC-P01 Final Action: Hold
(100. Dwelling Unit)
__________________________________________________ ___________
TCC Action: After reviewing the entire record, including the existing
rules in 210.18 and 210.60, the Technical Correlating Committee directs
that Comment 1-28 and Proposal 1-27 be reported as “Hold” for review
during the 2011 revision cycle. Although the revised definition is suitable
for application in NFPA 101 and 5000, the lack of other occupancies being
defined in the NEC (such as dormitories, rooming houses, etc.) creates
a concern for how the definition will be applied in the application of the
NEC.
Submitter: Timothy M. Croushore, Allegheny Power
Comment on Proposal No: 1-27
Recommendation: Please reject the original proposal.
Substantiation: The proposed statement in the substantiation that “the
definition does not change the intent of any of the codes...” is not correct.
Rather, adding the new term “housekeeping purposes” introduces a new
concept that is not currently in any of the NFPA standards. Deleting the term
“permanent provisions for...” eliminates a long standing clarification for
cooking between a portable microwave oven and an installed cook-top in
a counter top. Also, the revised definition would now have all guest rooms
of hotels and motels and college dormitories as dwelling units. The revised
definition does not add clarity to the definition of dwelling unit. Rather, it
changes the definition.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The panel is eliminating the distinction between portable
microwave ovens (as well as toaster-ovens and similar appliances) and
installed cooktops, as many dwelling units do not contain permanent cooking
appliances. The panel is also including those hotel rooms and dormitory rooms
that meet the proposed definition among “dwelling units”.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12

[ohm]

Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking. New to the 2008 NEC.

Per the 08 Code 480 is right on. I'ts ironic that as pictured, If there is no countertop lay-in, it doesn't meet the definition of a kitchen...so not even one seperate circuit is required, for that part of the room.

Ironicly, if there is a lay-in cooking unit there would have to be three circuits and power for the cooktop, of course.

No matter what the AHJ said I would put in three (GFCI), talk it over with the PE on the job and stay out of court.:roll:

PS: hope the NEC catches this next time around.

[wirebender]

Deleting the term
“permanent provisions for...” eliminates a long standing clarification for
cooking between a portable microwave oven and an installed cook-top in
a counter top.

That should clear things up. Maybe.

[normbac]

I asked the question because I wasnt sure where the line crosses between kitchenette and say a wet bar. fridge, sink and counter with no cooking appliances hardwired. Around here if youn want a mother inlaw quarters it cannot have a kitchen and the ahj makes sure there is no oven or range only a micro is permissable, hence my question about what does art 100 say.