400 amp install

[Brad Baxter]

Ideas and inputs on a 400 amp service.

I am installing one of those GE 400 amp meter combo's with 2- 200 amp breakers in it. It's actually called a 320a continuos type combo. It was high at $1700. I am still shopping for something cheaper. Someone told me they found one for $500 and i find that hard to believe.

I am going to connect the line side with 600 aluminum and leave load side breakers with 2- 4/0 ser al for my 2- 200amp panels in the basement. My question is has anyone did this a better and less expensive way and how much did you pay for the combo?

Also did you use a #6 copper for your 2 ground rods continuos to the meter like we normally use for 200 amp services or did you run a 1/0 copper to both ground rods?

Thanks.

[masterinbama]

just bought a combo from Milbank here for $615 tax and all. As for the ground1-1/0 is what you need

[jrannis]

City Electric Just under $600.
Seimens

[Dennis Alwon]

just bought a combo from Milbank here for $615 tax and all. As for the ground1-1/0 is what you need

1/0 is for the gec to the water pipes not the ground rod. #6 is fine to the rods.

[jrannis]

Ideas and inputs on a 400 amp service.

I am installing one of those GE 400 amp meter combo's with 2- 200 amp breakers in it. It's actually called a 320a continuos type combo. It was high at $1700. I am still shopping for something cheaper. Someone told me they found one for $500 and i find that hard to believe.

I am going to connect the line side with 600 aluminum and leave load side breakers with 2- 4/0 ser al for my 2- 200amp panels in the basement. My question is has anyone did this a better and less expensive way and how much did you pay for the combo?

Also did you use a #6 copper for your 2 ground rods continuos to the meter like we normally use for 200 amp services or did you run a 1/0 copper to both ground rods?

Thanks.

Are the lugs big enought for 600s?

[Dennis Alwon]

Ideas and inputs on a 400 amp service.

I am installing one of those GE 400 amp meter combo's with 2- 200 amp breakers in it. It's actually called a 320a continuos type combo. It was high at $1700. I am still shopping for something cheaper. Someone told me they found one for $500 and i find that hard to believe.


What's hard to believe is the price. Does your supplier not stock these. If not I have usually gone the route of a 320 amp meter base with 2- 200 amp main panel, 8 cir. with feed thru lugs on the exterior then I feed the interior panels thru the main lugs. This also gives me spares outside to feed a/c, swimming pool etc.

In this scenarior you would only need a #2 to the water pipes and a #6 to the ground rod as stated above.

[brantmacga]

my 400A w/ 2x200A CB's;

1x 400A Meter Base = $0 (from poco)
2x 200A Disconnects w/ Main = $230

[hillbilly]

Ideas and inputs on a 400 amp service.
I am going to connect the line side with 600 aluminum and leave load side breakers with 2- 4/0 ser al for my 2- 200amp panels in the basement.


If this is a single family dwelling, I don't think that you can use the 4/0 al for the feeders to the 200A panels.
When you go to 2 feeders, you can't use 310.15(B)(6).

Just my opinion
steve

[Dennis Alwon]

If this is a single family dwelling, I don't think that you can use the 4/0 al for the feeders to the 200A panels.
When you go to 2 feeders, you can't use 310.15(B)(6).

steve

Steve, 4/0 aluminum is good for 180 amps. As long as the calculated load at each panel is less than or equal to 180 amps you can use the next size breaker--- 200 amps.

[480sparky]

my 400A w/ 2x200A CB's;

1x 400A Meter Base = $0 (from poco)
2x 200A Disconnects w/ Main = $230

And the remaining parts & material to put that all together, plus labor, would be.....?

[Brad Baxter]

Are the lugs big enought for 600s?



You have to purchase the lugs seprerate. 2- 600's and 1- 400.

[brantmacga]

And the remaining parts & material to put that all together, plus labor, would be.....?

Rest of the parts, cable = $60 or less
Labor to assemble & hang = 1.5 hrs

[Brad Baxter]

If this is a single family dwelling, I don't think that you can use the 4/0 al for the feeders to the 200A panels.
When you go to 2 feeders, you can't use 310.15(B)(6).

Just my opinion
steve


I'm running 1 SER 4/0 AL TO ONE 200AMP PANEL in the basement AND ANOTHER SER 4/0 AL TO THE OTHER PANEL in the basement. What are you confused about?

[Brad Baxter]

What's hard to believe is the price. Does your supplier not stock these. If not I have usually gone the route of a 320 amp meter base with 2- 200 amp main panel, 8 cir. with feed thru lugs on the exterior then I feed the interior panels thru the main lugs. This also gives me spares outside to feed a/c, swimming pool etc.

In this scenarior you would only need a #2 to the water pipes and a #6 to the ground rod as stated above.

Why only a #2 to the water pipe? My largest conductor is a 600AL and the chart matches a 1/0

[Dennis Alwon]

Why only a #2 to the water pipe? My largest conductor is a 600AL and the chart matches a 1/0

Well I have never heard of using the wire on the line side of the meter. 250.66 is for service entrance not service laterals or drops.

[jimman]

4/0 SER is rated for only 150 amps. Remember, you must use the 60 deg column for ampacity.

[Dennis Alwon]

4/0 SER is rated for only 150 amps. Remember, you must use the 60 deg column for ampacity.

Good point. This is true if it is under the 08 code. Somehow I never think se cable since I rarely use it.

Jim's statement is backed up in art. 338.10(A) which references Part II of art. 334. Art. 334.80 states 60C.

[ceb58]

Good point. This is true if it is under the 08 code. Somehow I never think se cable since I rarely use it.

Jim's statement is backed up in art. 338.10(A) which references Part II of art. 334. Art. 334.80 states 60C.

Would this still apply? The SER is being used as feeders not service entrance. He will be feeding two 200amp sub panels from the breakers on the 400amp meter combo. I think this discussion is why NC is taking the code change back to the building code committee

[Dennis Alwon]

Would this still apply? The SER is being used as feeders not service entrance. He will be feeding two 200amp sub panels from the breakers on the 400amp meter combo. I think this discussion is why NC is taking the code change back to the building code committee

The reason NC is taking it back to the committee is because of Terry Cromer who has been very active in this fight. His contention is that UL tested se cable at 75C at 100% for over 3 hours . Se is rarely used at 100% and never for 3 hours. I imagine that it can be used in commercial use for over 3 hours but generally it is rated at 125% of the loads being served.

Anyway many inspectors hate this rule but as it is written the se cable used as a feeder must be rated at 60C if it is used in the interior of a building. For some reason on the exterior it is stil rated 90C but used at 75C .

[ceb58]

The reason NC is taking it back to the committee is because of Terry Cromer who has been very active in this fight. His contention is that UL tested se cable at 75C at 100% for over 3 hours . Se is rarely used at 100% and never for 3 hours. I imagine that it can be used in commercial use for over 3 hours but generally it is rated at 125% of the loads being served.

Anyway many inspectors hate this rule but as it is written the se cable used as a feeder must be rated at 60C if it is used in the interior of a building. For some reason on the exterior it is stil rated 90C but used at 75C .

I agree this is something that needs looking at again. I was talking with an inspector the other day and he was of the understanding that it could still be used as feeders and rated in the 75c. indoors.

[Dennis Alwon]

I agree this is something that needs looking at again. I was talking with an inspector the other day and he was of the understanding that it could still be used as feeders and rated in the 75c. indoors.

Nope we are in the '08 now so it must be used at 60C. However, by Jan.1, 2009 we should have a final ruling as to whether it will be reversed or not. Same is true for TR receptacles. We must use them now but possibly not after Jan.1, 2009. Very odd. We will see what happens.

BTW, for the others, this is a NC possible change

[iwire]

Nope we are in the '08 now so it must be used at 60C.

Because it is basically the same as NM and when used as NM the rules should be the same. There is nothing special about SE that makes it better then NM when used in the same applications.

Read the ROPs. :)

[Dennis Alwon]

Because it is basically the same as NM and when used as NM the rules should be the same. There is nothing special about SE that makes it better then NM when used in the same applications.

Read the ROPs. :)

I was making the distinction between inside & outside. Why is se allowed at 75C outside. Nm is not allowed outside and is rated 60C so there is a difference. Perhaps if nm were allowed on the exterior it could be rated 75C-- I don't know why.

[iwire]

I was making the distinction between inside & outside. Why is se allowed at 75C outside. Nm is not allowed outside and is rated 60C so there is a difference. Perhaps if nm were allowed on the exterior it could be rated 75C-- I don't know why.

I suspect it is because SE run outside is rarely buried in thermal insulation like NM and SE run inside are.

[Dennis Alwon]

I suspect it is because SE run outside is rarely buried in thermal insulation like NM and SE run inside are.

Makes sense..

[Dennis Alwon]

Perhaps there should have been an exception where thermal insulation is not an issue. I have seen se cable sleeved into a crawl space with 2"pvc and an lb. In this case there is no thermal issue.

[iwire]

Perhaps there should have been an exception where thermal insulation is not an issue. I have seen se cable sleeved into a crawl space with 2"pvc and an lb. In this case there is no thermal issue.

Seems needlessly complicated to me.

There are many things we used to do all the time but can not anymore. We used to be able to put a bunch of NMs through a hole without derating, we used to use whatever breaker fit, we used to use single pole breakers on NM.

Times change, pass the cost along to the customer and make more money.:)

[ceb58]

Seems needlessly complicated to me.

There are many things we used to do all the time but can not anymore. We used to be able to put a bunch of NMs through a hole without derating, we used to use whatever breaker fit, we used to use single pole breakers on NM.

Times change, pass the cost along to the customer and make more money.:)

Bob, I have always respected and looked forward to you incite and through code knowledge but as you have stated in the past ( and correct me if I am wrong) but you work for a elect. contractor you are not a contractor. The statement of just pass the cost along to the customer is starting to weigh down the contractor in the market place. I have seen GC's tell the electrical contractors that they are not paying for all the new requirements. The contractors that have been in business for years walk away knowing the GC is going to get screwed (as they should) by a fly by night that is dumb enough to eat the cost increases. Some of the new code requirements I agree with such as the afci issue. I have seen and repaired suituations that only by the grace of God it did not start a fire. If the items were protected by the afci the situation would have been avoided. But, as has been discussed before, the manufactures are now pushing their products on to the NEC for nothing more than their bottom line. The se cable has been tested and proven over the years. What has now changed?

[LarryFine]

. . . we used to use single pole breakers on NM.When did that become a no-no? :confused:

[1793]

When did that become a no-no? :confused:

I did not follow that at first either. Maybe it was suppose to be for MWBC. :smile:

[Buck Parrish]

Ideas and inputs on a 400 amp service.

I am installing one of those GE 400 amp meter combo's with 2- 200 amp breakers in it. It's actually called a 320a continuos type combo. It was high at $1700.

You got ripped off.
You should take it back.
You can buy that panel for $400 with out the breakers . And with the breakers $700 max. total.
You got taken (ripped off) for a $1000.
I use these panels a lot.

[Brad Baxter]

You got ripped off.
You should take it back.
You can buy that panel for $400 with out the breakers . And with the breakers $700 max. total.
You got taken (ripped off) for a $1000.
I use these panels a lot.


I have yet to pay for it. Please if you do these all the time can you tell me which brands you have? model, catalog# etc? Where can i get one?? The supplier is telling me that the ge version is between 1500-1900 and does not believe me when i say i heard it's in the 100's not thousands.

[normbac]

check out more than one supplier milbank makes a 400 comes with the extra 200 breaker and is between 600.00 - 650.00 max everywhere. you need to compare your pricing for all materials you buy from them if your being told that crazy price

[Buck Parrish]

I have yet to pay for it. Please if you do these all the time can you tell me which brands you have? model, catalog# etc? Where can i get one?? The supplier is telling me that the ge version is between 1500-1900 and does not believe me when i say i heard it's in the 100's not thousands.


Ite - Siemens
BR
I use siemens but I think A cutler Hammer BR makes them.
Sorry I don't have a catalog #. It is a very common item.
Don't pay $1700 for it. That's crazy.
They ussually come with out the breakers. You can get 125 or 150 amp breakers for the same panel. Say if you had a house that had a 200 amp panel at the house. And a detached garage you could put a 200 in the panel for the house and a smaller breaker for the garage. But mostly they are used like you are useing it for 2, 200 amp panels.

Supply houses have three or four prices one for real good customers then a couple for contractors. And they have a price for some one that walks in off the street. Do you know these guys very well ?

I should have asked where you are at. Your not on an Island some where are you?

[Brad Baxter]

Ite - Siemens
BR
I use siemens but I think A cutler Hammer BR makes them.
Sorry I don't have a catalog #. It is a very common item.
Don't pay $1700 for it. That's crazy.
They ussually come with out the breakers. You can get 125 or 150 amp breakers for the same panel. Say if you had a house that had a 200 amp panel at the house. And a detached garage you could put a 200 in the panel for the house and a smaller breaker for the garage. But mostly they are used like you are useing it for 2, 200 amp panels.

Supply houses have three or four prices one for real good customers then a couple for contractors. And they have a price for some one that walks in off the street. Do you know these guys very well ?

I should have asked where you are at. Your not on an Island some where are you?

I'm in NJ but i need the combo that has the 2 200amp breakers in it. I cannot have 2 main panels on the inside because they are 25ft away from the meter.

[Buck Parrish]

I'm in NJ but i need the combo that has the 2 200amp breakers in it. I cannot have 2 main panels on the inside because they are 25ft away from the meter.


As long as your disconnects are outside you can put the main lug panels any where you want.

[Dennis Alwon]

I agree this is something that needs looking at again. I was talking with an inspector the other day and he was of the understanding that it could still be used as feeders and rated in the 75c. indoors.
Here is an interesting scenario for those who use aluminum for se conductors and feeders.

400 amp meter base with 2- 200 amp panels. In the past we could run 4/0 aluminum to each panel and everyone would be happy. Then the CMP changed art. 310.15(B)(6) to clarify that in order to use T310.15(B)(6) the conductors must carry the full load of the service. So for a 200 amp service 4/0 SE cable is still good if it carries the full load of the service. Why? Because T310.15(B)(6) allows 4/0 aluminum for 200 amps and se cable is an acceptable wiring method.

Okay now back to the 400 amp service stated above. Se cable cannot even be used. Why because 4/0 seu to each panel will not satisfy Art. 310.15(B)(6).

Now we must use Table 310.16 which states we must use 300 KCM aluminum for 200 amps. 250 KCM is only good for 170 and 175 is next higher size breaker so you cannot use that conductor. 300 KCM is what must be used.

Let's install the seu cable from the 200 amp and use firecaulk around it into the building and that does not change a thing even though that is the main reason - as Bob pointed out- that SE cable has been derated to 60C.

So 200 amp service 4/0 se cable is fine for a SFD however 350 KCM must be used for a 400 amp service that utilizes 2-200 amp panels.

[LarryFine]

It sounds like dual-150a-panel services are likely to grow in popularity.

[ceb58]

I get sq D 400amp. for 850.00 it comes with one 200 installed, extra 200 and lug kit. The sq D also has a 100 amp rated 8 space built in.

[normbac]

Here is an interesting scenario for those who use aluminum for se conductors and feeders.

400 amp meter base with 2- 200 amp panels. In the past we could run 4/0 aluminum to each panel and everyone would be happy. Then the CMP changed art. 310.15(B)(6) to clarify that in order to use T310.15(B)(6) the conductors must carry the full load of the service. So for a 200 amp service 4/0 SE cable is still good if it carries the full load of the service. Why? Because T310.15(B)(6) allows 4/0 aluminum for 200 amps and se cable is an acceptable wiring method.

Okay now back to the 400 amp service stated above. Se cable cannot even be used. Why because 4/0 seu to each panel will not satisfy Art. 310.15(B)(6).

Now we must use Table 310.16 which states we must use 300 KCM aluminum for 200 amps. 250 KCM is only good for 170 and 175 is next higher size breaker so you cannot use that conductor. 300 KCM is what must be used.

Let's install the seu cable from the 200 amp and use firecaulk around it into the building and that does not change a thing even though that is the main reason - as Bob pointed out- that SE cable has been derated to 60C.

So 200 amp service 4/0 se cable is fine for a SFD however 350 KCM must be used for a 400 amp service that utilizes 2-200 amp panels.
would that still apply if you were to feed a separate structure with one 200 and the other 200 for the main structure

[hillbilly]

Here is an interesting scenario for those who use aluminum for se conductors and feeders.

400 amp meter base with 2- 200 amp panels. In the past we could run 4/0 aluminum to each panel and everyone would be happy. Then the CMP changed art. 310.15(B)(6) to clarify that in order to use T310.15(B)(6) the conductors must carry the full load of the service. So for a 200 amp service 4/0 SE cable is still good if it carries the full load of the service. Why? Because T310.15(B)(6) allows 4/0 aluminum for 200 amps and se cable is an acceptable wiring method.

Okay now back to the 400 amp service stated above. Se cable cannot even be used. Why because 4/0 seu to each panel will not satisfy Art. 310.15(B)(6).



Now we must use Table 310.16 which states we must use 300 KCM aluminum for 200 amps. 250 KCM is only good for 170 and 175 is next higher size breaker so you cannot use that conductor. 300 KCM is what must be used.

Let's install the seu cable from the 200 amp and use firecaulk around it into the building and that does not change a thing even though that is the main reason - as Bob pointed out- that SE cable has been derated to 60C.

So 200 amp service 4/0 se cable is fine for a SFD however 350 KCM must be used for a 400 amp service that utilizes 2-200 amp panels.

This is what I was getting at in my first post (#8).:smile:

steve

[Dennis Alwon]

This is what I was getting at in my first post (#8).:smile:

steve

I realized that my response (#9 post) was misdirected. I was thinking just about T310.15(B)(6). I keep forgetting about se being 60C.

[Brad Baxter]

I was told all over florida that they have been doing this method for forever. 2 #4/0 al use-2 to both panels and no inspector complaints.

I realized that my response (#9 post) was misdirected. I was thinking just about T310.15(B)(6). I keep forgetting about se being 60C.

[hillbilly]

I was told all over florida that they have been doing this method for forever. 2 #4/0 al use-2 to both panels and no inspector complaints.

I believe that the rule (310.15(B)(6) was changed....well maybe not changed...just clarified...in the 08 Code.
I don't as yet have (nor need) a 08 code:), so this is what I've heard.

Until then, IMHO, the wording of the rule allowed the installation that you propose.
Now, you can only use 310.15(B)(6) to size the Main power Feeder (singular)....not Feeder(s) (plural).
This eliminates using this rule to size two seperate Service Feeders into a residence.

This is just my interpretation and opinion
steve