Side Bar of 'Qualified'

[tom baker]

Make the proposal. I would be interested to see the CMP answer.
But look at all the homeowner work that is unsafe, where the homeowner feels they are qualifed.

[petersonra]

Make the proposal. I would be interested to see the CMP answer.
But look at all the homeowner work that is unsafe, where the homeowner feels they are qualifed.
Look at all the HO work that is safe.

[iwire]

Look at all the HO work that is safe.

And all the EC work that is unsafe.

IMO an electrical license is not any indication at all of a persons qualifications, all it means is they are legally qualified it does not mean they know what they are doing.

[jwelectric]

And all the EC work that is unsafe.

IMO an electrical license is not any indication at all of a persons qualifications, all it means is they are legally qualified it does not mean they know what they are doing.

And if you don't believe what Bob has said just look at me :-? :wink: :rolleyes:

[jim dungar]

The new NFPA 70E definition of qualified includes the phrase:
"... A person can be considered qualified with respect to certain equipment and methods but still be unqualified for others."

One problem is that in the NEC there is no entity given as being responsible for determining who is qualified. At least in NFPA 70E it is the job of the employer to decide.

[iwire]

And if you don't believe what Bob has said just look at me :-? :wink: :rolleyes:

You are both licensed and qualified. 8-)

[iwire]

I took these pictures just last Friday while at a service call. This is above the ceiling of a store in RI.

I am sure no DIYs had anything to do with this, it was electrical contractors.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg235/iwire_bucket/StopShop018.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg235/iwire_bucket/StopShop022.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg235/iwire_bucket/StopShop023.jpg

[480sparky]

I took these pictures just last Friday while at a service call. This is above the ceiling of a store in RI.

I am sure no DIYs had anything to do with this, it was electrical contractors.


Just because it's commercial?

DIYers don't limit themselves to resi work.

[electricalperson]

I took these pictures just last Friday while at a service call. This is above the ceiling of a store in RI.

I am sure no DIYs had anything to do with this, it was electrical contractors.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg235/iwire_bucket/StopShop018.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg235/iwire_bucket/StopShop022.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg235/iwire_bucket/StopShop023.jpg
that looks like every single celing i ever worked in. its pretty sad when people do work like this. just beccause its hidden doesnt mean it should look like crap

[iwire]

Just because it's commercial?

DIYers don't limit themselves to resi work.

Take my word for it, this work was done by one or more electrical contractors. I am happy to say none that I have worked for.

[peter d]

Take my word for it, this work was done by one or more electrical contractors. I am happy to say none that I have worked for.

It just proves your point even more Bob. :cool:

[mdshunk]

I don't really like Larry The Cable Guy, but every time I see pictures like that "Git 'R Dun!" rings in my ear.

[peter d]

I don't really like Larry The Cable Guy, but every time I see pictures like that "Git 'R Dun!" rings in my ear.

That is certainly true. Having done some repair work on a similar store, there is tremendous (time) pressure to get the work done so the store can return to operation.

Also, the particular pictures Bob posted are of a store that was remodeled electrically by a known hack contractor.

[iwire]

The rats nest does not bother me as much as all the NMs left with just wire nuts on them (Pictures 2 & 3). They may have been dead or alive and from 120 volt single phase to 480 3 phase.

I had to work on the smaller contacter on the right in picture 3.

[480sparky]

The rats nest does not bother me as much as all the NMs left with just wire nuts on them (Pictures 2 & 3). They may have been dead or alive and from 120 volt single phase to 480 3 phase.

I had to work on the smaller contacter on the right in picture 3.

Interesting. Now according to some people, you are now legally required to fix all that.......8-)

And are you sure it wasn't 483-phase? :grin:

[iwire]

Interesting. Now according to some people, you are now legally required to fix all that.......8-)

Oh don't worry, I yanked all that out and replaced it with RMC for free. :grin:

[peter d]

Oh don't worry, I yanked all that out and replaced it with RMC for free. :grin:


On your own time too. ;)

[SEO]

I took these pictures just last Friday while at a service call. This is above the ceiling of a store in RI.

I am sure no DIYs had anything to do with this, it was electrical contractors.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg235/iwire_bucket/StopShop018.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg235/iwire_bucket/StopShop022.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg235/iwire_bucket/StopShop023.jpg That's the kind of installation (It really doesn't qualify as an installation) that's a discredit to the industry. You say contractors installed said mess I'd like to see their license if they have one. Just about anyone can make things work but workmanship and code complience have to be applied as well. That would be a fun job to inspect.

[LarryFine]

It really is true that licensing, etc., just let's you receive calls for work. After that, it's up to the person to do the work in a proper manner. It's easy to make yourself do it well when it's going to show.

[petersonra]

I don't really like Larry The Cable Guy, but every time I see pictures like that "Git 'R Dun!" rings in my ear.

Sidebar - did you know Larry the Cable Guy hosted his own bull riding event? And owns an interest in several bucking bulls? Including one of the top bulls - Chicken on a Chain?

[zappy]

1st pic bottom right j-box not supported.2nd pic no cover on j-box,3rd pic wire nuts not taped!:mad:

[Mule]

And all the EC work that is unsafe.

IMO an electrical license is not any indication at all of a persons qualifications, all it means is they are legally qualified it does not mean they know what they are doing.

iWire, I have to respectfully disagree with this one a bit. With a thorough code exam and a shop test, AND four years of apprenticeship....I would think that a person would in be in NO comparisom to a HO. I agree that there are EC's that doing shoddy work, but in general IMO licensed folks have something way better to offer the consumer in safety. We all dont like government control, but the inosent deserve_________.........Oh I dont want to go there...I'll back off

I've always used this analogy....If, you have a $3000 transmission go out in your car....do you take it to the jack of all trades for half the price, or do you take it to the man with stripes on his shirt for the full price? I know this doesnt represent government control, but I dont want any one messing with something as complicated as this tranny OR my bonding or grounding or whatever....

[Mule]

I took these pictures just last Friday while at a service call. This is above the ceiling of a store in RI.

I am sure no DIYs had anything to do with this, it was electrical contractors.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg235/iwire_bucket/StopShop018.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg235/iwire_bucket/StopShop022.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg235/iwire_bucket/StopShop023.jpg

AND where was the inspector that missed ALL of that.......Inspector accountability has a purpose for those yA-hoo's that do that kind of work

[quogueelectric]

I would like to know where the reset button went in the contactor I think I see rx running inside the empty contactor.

[iwire]

AND where was the inspector that missed ALL of that.......Inspector accountability has a purpose for those yA-hoo's that do that kind of work

True, the inspector has a part to play but this work was done by electricians, ones that had licenses, ones that have to take code updates, ones that had to go through four years of apprenticeship.

The fact remains many license holders just don't care .

So lets get off our high horse and put aside this notion that a Govt. issued license is assurance of professional work.

[bjp_ne_elec]

Iwire - in RI, is there anything allowing NM in non-wooden structures, let alone commercial buildings? I know here in NH, NM is allowed in commercial buildings, up to two stories, that are wood construction. Back in NY, NM was not allowed in any commercial building, even if it was wood framed.

Am I seeing it correctly - it looks like some of those wires are SO cord - the black ones. Is that accurate?

[ramsy]

iWire, I have to respectfully disagree with this one a bit. With a thorough code exam and a shop test, AND four years of apprenticeship....

IMO State licensing provide contractors important controls; with leans against property sales by delinquent owners, against unlicensed operators competing on the same project, to enforce minimum-code compliance with permits, and by providing a common fraternity against unlicensed-weekend warriors, on internet-trade forums.

Unfortunately, only 3% of license application data is verified in my State. And, those active licenses that may view permits as municipal-revenue scams --less efficient than self inspection-- must also be considered a more qualified opinion.

For the 19 States that require testing, experience, & bonding, a great deal of people still assume its Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) to use expired, revoked, or license numbers that don't belong to them. And, umbrella-insurance policies don't solve these licensing debacles, since carriers only scrub before paying claims, not before collecting premiums.

In the remaining unlicensed States it is abundantly clear, principal credit/references/trade-association memberships remains the superior indication of contractor solvency.

Further, good contractors can have bad days, or depleted bonds, and bond renewal isn't required for license renewal in my State. So, regardless of State-license scheme, construction consumers must still purchase all material to prevent supplier leans, and pay legal-minimum deposits to control for insolvent, or disappearing contractors.

[Poolside]

... bond renewal isn't required for license renewal in my State.

Actually it is. In CA if your bond expires, your contractor's license gets suspended automatically. You may not have to show the bond for your renewal paperwork, but you still need a current bond on file for a current and active license.

Sure, we can go through all the training and licensing, spend countless hours reading forums like this one, magazines, and books with the intent of perfecting our craft. Then we turn on HGTV with the other millions of viewers and learn that electrical wiring is fairly easy and safe to do as long as you turn the power off first. Even the guy down at the Big Orange says so......

- Greg

[peter d]

Iwire - in RI, is there anything allowing NM in non-wooden structures, let alone commercial buildings?

Yes, the NEC. ;) There is no code rule that forbids NM in "commercial" buildings. But now your would run afoul of 334.12(A)(2).

[ramsy]

In CA if your bond expires, your contractor's license gets suspended automatically. You may not have to show the bond for your renewal paperwork, but you still need a current bond on file for a current and active license.

OK, but If you have a current bond, failing to pay the claim against the old bond won't (or shouldn't) affect your CA license.
http://www.contractortalk.com/showpost.php?p=416637&postcount=105

Further, the license itself will not be affected by a Bankruptcy. So my point is both bond and license may in fact misrepresent solvency.
http://www.contractortalk.com/showpost.php?p=377165&postcount=81

[cschmid]

And all the EC work that is unsafe.

IMO an electrical license is not any indication at all of a persons qualifications, all it means is they are legally qualified it does not mean they know what they are doing.


I am going to agree with Bob here..I have seen all sorts of stuff done by contractors on jobs..I would like a show of hands and be truth full here..

How many of you have done service work and installed a new circuit and not filed an inspection report...now be honest here...

Inspectors have more jobs then they can actually inspect in a day on there clip boards..now they take contractors as pros and give them a little room to roam..so when the contractor has figured out that the inspector is not going to check all the j-box covers in the false ceilings then some covers will not be installed..either by accident or maybe on purpose..

It takes a personal effort on the installers part to make sure every thing is done according to the code and in a professional manner..the field is so big it is my job to make the work I do done in a professional manner..Not the inspectors job..it is his job to make sure it does comply and to keep contractors honest..because they are out there just to make a quick buck..yeppers not everyone but they do exist..

[SEO]

True, the inspector has a part to play but this work was done by electricians, ones that had licenses, ones that have to take code updates, ones that had to go through four years of apprenticeship.

The fact remains many license holders just don't care .

So lets get off our high horse and put aside this notion that a Govt. issued license is assurance of professional work.
Everyone seems to think that every job that they come across has been inspected and installed by licensed electricians . I think they would be suprised to find out how many are not. Everyone does electrical wiring HVAC people, plumbers , carpenters and homeowners the list can go on. Many people install work after the job has been finaled just to by-pass inspectors. Even contractors that do code complient work.

[growler]

Look at all the HO work that is safe.

I will admit that I have seen lots of work done by licensed ECs that is not code compliant. But normally the grounds are made and there are connectors used on the cables. Conduit and cables not properly supported is one of the biggest violations that I see.

I have seen very few homeowner or handyman jobs that are even close to safe. One of the things that HOs install are recessed can lights. The first thing you notice is that no connectors are used and grounds not made. The next thing is that wiring is not stapled and is just run from point A to point B. Then there are the box covers that are always left off. If they even buy the correct cable it is a better than average job. I have seen everthing from speaker wire to old extension cords used. Even the use of wire nuts is optional, many times it's just wire twisted and taped. The last thing is the tap for power which is a flying splice that is just taped togather with the ground not made whick now means the whole circuit is not grounded.

It's very rare to see an electrician make all the same mistakes as the homeowner. The work may look like crap but just having done the job many times will insure that certain things are done right.

I can normally look at a job and tell if it was done by a homeowner or hack electrician. Just look for wire nuts, connectors, ground crimps, and check for where they tapped the circuit for power. If I see anything close to six inches of wire at the tap I know that the work was done by some sort of an electrician, if the tap is about 2 inches it was a homeowner ( they always cut the wire as short as they can get it ).

[Mule]

I am going to agree with Bob here..I have seen all sorts of stuff done by contractors on jobs..I would like a show of hands and be truth full here..

How many of you have done service work and installed a new circuit and not filed an inspection report...now be honest here...

Inspectors have more jobs then they can actually inspect in a day on there clip boards..now they take contractors as pros and give them a little room to roam..so when the contractor has figured out that the inspector is not going to check all the j-box covers in the false ceilings then some covers will not be installed..either by accident or maybe on purpose..

It takes a personal effort on the installers part to make sure every thing is done according to the code and in a professional manner..the field is so big it is my job to make the work I do done in a professional manner..Not the inspectors job..it is his job to make sure it does comply and to keep contractors honest..because they are out there just to make a quick buck..yeppers not everyone but they do exist..

Well... we all speak from our own experiences and reasoning..but for me and our town we have alot of respectfull contractors IMO, and a hand full of "not so respectfull" contractors making work for the fire department and the hospital. And its the "not so respectfull" ones that should be corrected by a quality inspection process that would protect the public. Society will always have givers and takers, and there will always be individuals that refuse to "fly right" and take pride in their work.

Contractors that are doing their jobs correctly certainly dont need as much correction but in order to be equal, how else would you do it? True, I have done several jobs without permits, in fact, I'm guessing that there are somewhere between 30-40 working electricians in our town that are either EC's or employeed by such. The city records show only an average of 45 permits per month for 2008....so to me the inspection process is really "out of control" much less being "in control"..I probably come close to doing that much work myself.....It just doesnt add up...AND I would bet that most all of those permits issued are resi new construction, not the type of work that iwire shows above the ceiling.

Now iWire....do I still sound like I'm on a "high horse"? :)

[cschmid]

Hmm....Mule on a horse now that might be worth watching the video..:grin:

I agree there is alot of good contractors and yes a few bad ones as well..yet it only takes one bad one to stain the whole arena..

[growler]

I agree there is alot of good contractors and yes a few bad ones as well..yet it only takes one bad one to stain the whole arena..

Many of the contractors that do really shoddy work got their experience working for other contractors that did really shoddy work.

In many states to get a license you are required to have a certain amount of experience but that experience can be working for any licensed contractor and not necessarily a good and competent electrician. I once had a helper that had two years of experience working for his uncle and he was ruined, he had learned nothing but bad habbits. His uncle had obtained his license through the grandfather system and only worked out in the country with very few inspections. In other words the kid had never seen a job that was done right. If the uncle hadn't went out of business the kid would have gotten all his experience working for a hack. Four years of experience and a prep course and he would have been licensed and wouldn't have had the slightest idea how to do a job.

The system is not perfect it's just all we have. It's better than nothing and not near as good as it should be.

[petersonra]

iWire, I have to respectfully disagree with this one a bit. With a thorough code exam and a shop test, AND four years of apprenticeship....I would think that a person would in be in NO comparisom to a HO. I agree that there are EC's that doing shoddy work, but in general IMO licensed folks have something way better to offer the consumer in safety. We all dont like government control, but the inosent deserve_________.........Oh I dont want to go there...I'll back off

I've always used this analogy....If, you have a $3000 transmission go out in your car....do you take it to the jack of all trades for half the price, or do you take it to the man with stripes on his shirt for the full price? I know this doesnt represent government control, but I dont want any one messing with something as complicated as this tranny OR my bonding or grounding or whatever....
I would not be taking a transmission problem to just any government licensed mechanic. just because he went through the prescribed mechanic apprenticeship does not make him competent to actually work on my transmission.

Nor does a guy who changes oil need a 3 year long apprenticeship to learn how to do so.

[petersonra]

I will admit that I have seen lots of work done by licensed ECs that is not code compliant. But normally the grounds are made and there are connectors used on the cables. Conduit and cables not properly supported is one of the biggest violations that I see.

I have seen very few homeowner or handyman jobs that are even close to safe. One of the things that HOs install are recessed can lights. The first thing you notice is that no connectors are used and grounds not made. The next thing is that wiring is not stapled and is just run from point A to point B. Then there are the box covers that are always left off. If they even buy the correct cable it is a better than average job. I have seen everthing from speaker wire to old extension cords used. Even the use of wire nuts is optional, many times it's just wire twisted and taped. The last thing is the tap for power which is a flying splice that is just taped togather with the ground not made whick now means the whole circuit is not grounded.

It's very rare to see an electrician make all the same mistakes as the homeowner. The work may look like crap but just having done the job many times will insure that certain things are done right.

I can normally look at a job and tell if it was done by a homeowner or hack electrician. Just look for wire nuts, connectors, ground crimps, and check for where they tapped the circuit for power. If I see anything close to six inches of wire at the tap I know that the work was done by some sort of an electrician, if the tap is about 2 inches it was a homeowner ( they always cut the wire as short as they can get it ).
I have seen a lot of HO work and never saw any of this. It may be that you see the problem installations.

I have seen ground wires twisted and no wire nut, but that was a common practice around here for grounds, even by "real" electricians.

[Mule]

I would not be taking a transmission problem to just any government licensed mechanic. just because he went through the prescribed mechanic apprenticeship does not make him competent to actually work on my transmission.

Nor does a guy who changes oil need a 3 year long apprenticeship to learn how to do so.

He would have the correct knowledge but maybe not the will to perform. Two different issues.

[SEO]

How does anyone know that these jobs were inspected?

[growler]

I have seen a lot of HO work and never saw any of this. It may be that you see the problem installations.


Where exactly do you see all of this homeowner work that is safe? Are you moonlighting as an electrician or home inspector?

Very few jobs allow an individual to go out there and really dig into the electrical work at a residence. I don't think I have ever went over to a friend's house and been invited to crawl around in the attic ( if so I would have declined ). I see no reason to go swimming in the insulation unless I'm paid to do so.

[petersonra]

Where exactly do you see all of this homeowner work that is safe? Are you moonlighting as an electrician or home inspector?

Very few jobs allow an individual to go out there and really dig into the electrical work at a residence. I don't think I have ever went over to a friend's house and been invited to crawl around in the attic ( if so I would have declined ). I see no reason to go swimming in the insulation unless I'm paid to do so.
Thats a good point. Perhaps I have a good feeling for HO work because the stuff I have seen is pretty good. But most of that is other engineers and people I know who have some level of skill at such things. Its possible it is not indicative of HO work in general.

[ramsy]

The public is exposed to hazards by both owner builders and licensed professionals alike. (See: Boy electrocuted by garage door)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-5Erq7Co0E

After an inspection missed energized EGC on 3-way switch, installed by an employee, this electrical contractor simply changed corporate names, and operates "business as usual" with the same management.

With untrained, unsupervised, and exploited employees, owner builders largely unchecked, and inspectors refusing to climb in crawl spaces, assuming safety at any private property is critically naive.

There is little comfort in unqualified General contractors that monkey’s with electrical, regardless of the unrelated license, but this practice is legal and largely unstoppable. The North American franchise “Handyman Connection” may be one of several enterprising exploits of this licensing loophole.