rifrickindiculous inspection dept

[brantmacga]

my head is literally going to explode now.

situation:

I have a new store opening in 4 wks. We built two partition walls at the front to separate an area. They are free standing and tie into nothing structurally. The ceiling is acoustical tile.

My painter calls this morning and says the code compliance investigator showed up, put a stop-work order on the job and threatened him with a fine if he didn't leave immediately.

After a discussion with building dept. it seems that a permit is required to build these free-standing partition walls. Not just a permit, but I have to get an architect to draw the two partition walls on the plans, submit them for review, and wait several days for approval. Then once approved, I have to hire a licensed commercial building contractor to perform the work.

I'm trying to play nice because I have to deal with them a lot for electrical jobs, but this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. I'm on my way to the dept now for a face-to-face. I just hope they don't make me take the drywall down to inspect the construction of the wall.

[480sparky]

My bet is the wall needs to be engineered because it's supposed to be a fire-rated wall, not just a partition....

[wireguru]

that doesnt seem ridiculous at all. they need to make sure the walls are safe and wont fall over on someone. they need to make sure the spray pattern of fire sprinklers isnt affected, etc. where i am, all commercial construction has to be permitted, and owner-builder isnt allowed, only on residential.

[iwire]

that doesnt seem ridiculous at all. they need to make sure the walls are safe and wont fall over on someone. they need to make sure the spray pattern of fire sprinklers isnt affected, etc. where i am, all commercial construction has to be permitted, and owner-builder isnt allowed, only on residential.

Same here.

[shockin]

Same here -

A local contractor recently found out how important it is to go thru that same process when you demo just a couple of walls. (No other changes). It cost him a fair amount of money in fines.

[wbalsam1]

Also, the direction of egress may be impeded by such free-standing walls. :smile:

[hillbilly]

After a discussion with building dept. it seems that a permit is required to build these free-standing partition walls.


Bingo.....Nail on the head.....You didn't get a permit.

It's all about the $$$$$.

Government budgets are tight.....
They've got to find ways to wring every dollar they can from the taxpayer.
How else are they gonna pay for raises and all the new cars they budgeted for this year?

What if it were just some moveable partitions......Would the rules still apply?

Just my opinion
steve

[Weaver Road]

Brantmacga,
One of the many concerns here is that the description you gave says not structural tie-in. Along with the other posts here, consider this: Earthquake, suspended ceiling becomes the only siesmic bracing for those walls, a little shimmy and shake and the walls come down, pulling the ceiling, maybe some lighting and a sprinkler head or two. You may not be in an active siesmic zone, or have sprinklers, but that all has to be considered in the review of the proposed work.

As for the fine, I can't do that around here, but I do have other tools at my disposal to stop work if needed. I wouldn't likely bother getting cranked up at a painter unless the work area presented some sort of danger to him.

I understand your frustration, but there are dozens of reasons for this which I won't bore you with at this point.

If you can post the results of your meeting, I would be interested to hear what they told you. It's potential learning for all of us. :)

Mike

[Rewire]

people rant about low ballers and hacks doing electrical work without going through the permit process this is no different

[James@CHA]

my head is literally going to explode now.

situation:

I have a new store opening in 4 wks. We built two partition walls at the front to separate an area. They are free standing and tie into nothing structurally. The ceiling is acoustical tile.

My painter calls this morning and says the code compliance investigator showed up, put a stop-work order on the job and threatened him with a fine if he didn't leave immediately.

After a discussion with building dept. it seems that a permit is required to build these free-standing partition walls. Not just a permit, but I have to get an architect to draw the two partition walls on the plans, submit them for review, and wait several days for approval. Then once approved, I have to hire a licensed commercial building contractor to perform the work.

I'm trying to play nice because I have to deal with them a lot for electrical jobs, but this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. I'm on my way to the dept now for a face-to-face. I just hope they don't make me take the drywall down to inspect the construction of the wall.

Rules is Rules... when it comes to safety, rules are not meant to be broken.

Dont fight it, just do the right thing and fix it, pass the inspection, and your head will not explode.

[roger]

Same here.

And same here too.

Roger

[DanZ]

that doesnt seem ridiculous at all. they need to make sure the walls are safe and wont fall over on someone. they need to make sure the spray pattern of fire sprinklers isnt affected, etc. where i am, all commercial construction has to be permitted, and owner-builder isnt allowed, only on residential.
Same here in Ohio as well.
They want to make sure you follow code, do work safely, path of egress isn't affected, emergency lighting isn't affected, etc...
Nothing at all rifrickindicolous about it.
Nothing ridiculous about making you tear out the drywall to inspect the structural members of the wall assembly, and any plumbing or wiring thereof. Before you say it, the studs in the wall are supporting themselves, so they are the structural members of the wall assembly.
This is what happens when you break the rules.
Oh, since they did catch you, you can probably expect them to "throw the book" at you and make you meet every little nuance of the local building codes as well. I'm going through that now with my bosses other business.:rolleyes:
Good luck!

[SEO]

And same here too.

Roger
And the same here as well.

[Dennis Alwon]

After a discussion with building dept. it seems that a permit is required to build these free-standing partition walls. Not just a permit, but I have to get an architect to draw the two partition walls on the plans, submit them for review, and wait several days for approval. Then once approved, I have to hire a licensed commercial building contractor to perform the work.

It is unfortunate. Many resi jobs, depending on your jurisdiction, there would be absolutely no problem not having a permit for a non structural wall. However, the commercial world is very different with many rules that we don't see with resi work. Some of those rules have been stated.

It also sounds like you need a special license to do commercial work in your area. A lesson learned the hard way. Tough break... it appears you were just unaware of the rules.

[satcom]

"However, the commercial world is very different with many rules that we don't see with resi work."


Yes, and so is the process to plan and layout these jobs, the professional fees, the additional time to schedule with other trades, and any added expenses for moving heads, or adding exit lights, moving emergency lights, these jobs can eat up a budget real fast, and if you din't price it right at first, you usually come up on the loosing end.

[brantmacga]

it didn't go as badly as it could have.

The partitions are to separate the front counter from the rear employees only production area. They are 'L' shaped so they won't fall over, and are attached to the slab at the base.

Anyway, when I got there they were pretty teed off. I had double permit fees, a court summons, a $1k fine, a request by the local dept to have the state place sanctions on my electrical license, etc. . .

So I talked to the plans examiner. I had a copy of the store layout and drew on there where the two partitions were. He said they didn't care about what I was doing, they just wanted the permit money.

The code investigator wanted to drag me under the bus with these sanctions and taking me to court. I just had to be sweet as pie with her and ended up with double permit fees, no fine, no court, and a warning. Turns out I went to church with some of her family. She wanted to have the state put sanctions on my electrical license because I added a data drop for my computer w/o a permit. Which is odd, because the last time I talked to the electrical inspector, he told me they don't require permits for LV work and he doesn't inspect it. Guess they're not on the same page.

I have to get a commercial building contractor to pull the permit, and these walls are going to cost me an extra $500 now.

Anyway, that's what happened.

[Sparky555]

That's rifrickindiculous!

Dave

[Dennis Alwon]

it didn't go as badly as it could have.
The code investigator wanted to drag me under the bus with these sanctions and taking me to court. I just had to be sweet as pie with her and ended up with double permit fees, no fine, no court, and a warning. Turns out I went to church with some of her family.
Anyway, that's what happened.

It would have been a much better story if you told us you ended up getting a date with her. :D

[growler]

It would have been a much better story if you told us you ended up getting a date with her. :D



I have never herd of them being this strict about a data drop or anything else. Normally they will only make you pay twice the permit fees and then rake you over the coals on the inspections. I have been there several times when the owners didn't get permits and it's a bear, you have to charge about 50% more because they normally try to make sure they have learned a lesson but I have never seen anyone actually fined unless the fail to heed the warning.

Sound like this lady believes in tough love.

[petersonra]

no wonder people hate government lackeys so much.

[DanZ]

I think it's more of a good cop / bad cop thing. They wanted you to see exactly what was on the line.

[Buck Parrish]

I didn't know Georgia required a state electrical license.

Brantmagac
You should have told them the walls we're temporary.:D

I guess they are now any way, oh well. ;)

[brantmacga]

I think it's more of a good cop / bad cop thing. They wanted you to see exactly what was on the line.

maybe so. i'll say it was a lesson learned. i hate to claim ignorance, but that's what it was. I told them I wasn't purposely avoiding a permit; I really didn't think I needed one. Oh well.

[petersonra]

maybe so. i'll say it was a lesson learned. i hate to claim ignorance, but that's what it was. I told them I wasn't purposely avoiding a permit; I really didn't think I needed one. Oh well.
Its possible you didn't. They may just have made it up. Where I live, some of this kind of stuff requires no permit or inspection for mechanical work, but does for electrical. Place I used to work had to get an electrical inspection after some walls were put up to make a new conference room, but no inspection of the walls themselves was required. Same place had to get a permit and inspection to install wood paneling in the president's office though. Its sort of vague where the line is drawn.

OTOH, some locales require permits and inspections for the mobile partition type walls.

[growler]

Its possible you didn't. They may just have made it up. Where I live, some of this kind of stuff requires no permit or inspection for mechanical work, but does for electrical.

Here is the deal on the permits. Even if you don't do a darn thing to the building or tenant space in most areas a "move in permit" is required. This lets them check such things as emergency lights ( they also check for holes in the fire wall). It's a fire & safety inspection. It's not really a big deal but many business owners try to avoid it anyway.

It's really a good idea to check with the city or county before starting any commercial work to see if there are permits required. They tend to be much nicer if you ask. If nothing else if opening a public business he will need a sign permit. I always tell prospective business owners to check and see what type of hoops they need to jump through to get their business license.

If you work things right then it cost you a few bucks and then it paint by the numbers.

[DanZ]

maybe so. i'll say it was a lesson learned. i hate to claim ignorance, but that's what it was. I told them I wasn't purposely avoiding a permit; I really didn't think I needed one. Oh well.
One of the "reasons" they want plans is in case of emergencies. It lets fire fighters and police know what to expect. Or so I've heard.:grin:

[petersonra]

good point. they do seem to be more lenient after you are already there.

guy was telling me a story a few weeks ago. the building he works in started to leak through the roof so they had to get it re-roofed. no permit or inspection. but they did have to get one to reseal the parking lot. guy came out afterward to verify the size of the parking spots. turns out, there is no actual requirement to have painted lines denoting the spots, but if you do, there is a rule about what size they have to be.

a club i belonged to got some new HVAC equipment installed. no permit was required, including for the electrical work because it was considered replacement.

[DanZ]

good point. they do seem to be more lenient after you are already there.

guy was telling me a story a few weeks ago. the building he works in started to leak through the roof so they had to get it re-roofed. no permit or inspection. but they did have to get one to reseal the parking lot. guy came out afterward to verify the size of the parking spots. turns out, there is no actual requirement to have painted lines denoting the spots, but if you do, there is a rule about what size they have to be.

a club i belonged to got some new HVAC equipment installed. no permit was required, including for the electrical work because it was considered replacement.
I've read the code for some cities that want you to obtain a permit prior to replacing HVAC units, repairing roofs, painting, putting in windows...unless it's an emergency, then you can do the work, and apply for a permit later. It all comes down to where you're doing the work. :cool:

[iwire]

Permits are required here for roofing, siding etc.

[480sparky]

Permits are required here for roofing, siding etc.

Even a shed or porch. Fences or decks as well.

[Strahan]

It is getting a little ridiculous with all the necessary permits and inspections required to do anything including a residential building addition to your own house. I'm not that old and I remember getting a permit for $25 now a simple 16x20 addition cost me $350. It is simply all about the money. Gov't is handing out too much money and we need to make up the difference!

[celtic]

Permits are required here for roofing, siding etc.

A construction permit is required here in NJ (see pic below)

Fences would require a "Zoning Permit".

[Minuteman]

my head is literally going to explode now.

situation:

I have a new store opening in 4 wks. We built two partition walls at the front to separate an area. They are free standing and tie into nothing structurally. The ceiling is acoustical tile.

My painter calls this morning and says the code compliance investigator showed up, put a stop-work order on the job and threatened him with a fine if he didn't leave immediately.

After a discussion with building dept. it seems that a permit is required to build these free-standing partition walls. Not just a permit, but I have to get an architect to draw the two partition walls on the plans, submit them for review, and wait several days for approval. Then once approved, I have to hire a licensed commercial building contractor to perform the work.

I'm trying to play nice because I have to deal with them a lot for electrical jobs, but this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. I'm on my way to the dept now for a face-to-face. I just hope they don't make me take the drywall down to inspect the construction of the wall.
What does this have to do with electrical?

[growler]

Permits are required here for roofing, siding etc.

If you do any trenching are ground work here on a lot 2 acres or more then you now need an erosion awareness card from the Georgia soil and water conservation commission. In this state you now need to be certified to dig a ditch. It's not even a joke. :grin: :grin:

Just though I would throw that in there. ;)

[Strahan]

This topic may be a little off electrical but permits are required for everything including electrical. And of course an inspection is required for EVERYTHING the part that pisses me off is the inspections are crap. Most of the time it is a 5min inspection sorry but that doesn't cut it. I've seen my local township inspector pass things electrically that never ever should pass. They don't look at the circuits sizing proper grounding or anything that would tell me its legitimate and not about the money. Don't get me wrong I think the whole inspection process is a neccessity to stop shotty work but don't make a joke about thats what leads me to believe this is just another way to take a few more dollars out of our pocket!

[donselectric]

it's shoddy work not shotty.....:D

[Strahan]

it's shoddy work not shotty.....:D

Depends on how you look at it! Most guys are just taking a shot in the dark!

[brantmacga]

If you do any trenching are ground work here on a lot 2 acres or more then you now need an erosion awareness card from the Georgia soil and water conservation commission. In this state you now need to be certified to dig a ditch. It's not even a joke. :grin: :grin:

Just though I would throw that in there. ;)

i didn't know about the 2 acres part. They told us the classes and card are mandatory if you move any soil, regardless of lot size. They are getting extremely strict on that here. Inspections put a stop-work order on an entire subdivision last week because all the rain washed a little dirt into the road. They said that means the soil erosion protection wasn't done properly. We had some very heavy rains though.

[growler]

i didn't know about the 2 acres part. They told us the classes and card are mandatory if you move any soil, regardless of lot size.

Sorry, my mistake. It's one acre or larger or common development. You may as well say everyone and be done with it. ( I had to look it up).

Just another rule that can catch contractors by surprise. If you scratch your behind and there is dirt on it then you may be in trouble. ;)

[220/221]

They are free standing and tie into nothing structurally.

That's likely your first violation.

[c2500]

Pitty you are not in South Carolina. Here, a residential builder can do up to $5000 of commercial work. This has come in handy on a building I own.

c2500

[petersonra]

Even a shed or porch. Fences or decks as well.
here.

siding, painting, re-roofing no permit required. new windows, no permit required.

fence does. however, my understanding is they don't inspect fences.

deck does if it is attached to house. if not attached, does not require permit.

shed does not require permit if less than 100 square feet.

repairs and or replacement of existing equipment no permit. you can even convert a water heater from electric to gas w/o a permit. i had my gas water heater moved from upstairs to the basement and the contractor said it required no permit since they were able to plug it into an existing outlet. if a new outlet was installed, they would have had to get a permit for that though.

when I got my furnace replaced, I had an attic fan installed. the contractor said the village inspector told them no permit or inspection was required for that fan as long as they tapped into an existing circuit.

bathroom remodeling did require multiple permits and inspections.

[DanZ]

This topic may be a little off electrical but permits are required for everything including electrical. And of course an inspection is required for EVERYTHING the part that pisses me off is the inspections are crap. Most of the time it is a 5min inspection sorry but that doesn't cut it. I've seen my local township inspector pass things electrically that never ever should pass. They don't look at the circuits sizing proper grounding or anything that would tell me its legitimate and not about the money. Don't get me wrong I think the whole inspection process is a neccessity to stop shotty work but don't make a joke about thats what leads me to believe this is just another way to take a few more dollars out of our pocket!
But, they don't charge enough to keep good inspectors paid, plus all the other support staff, and hit all the inspections they have in a day.

In most places, the fees from the building department stay in the building department, and pay for inspectors normal pay, plus benefits, classes, mileage, same for plans examiners, and the people behind the counter. Not to mention local code development.

[hillbilly]

"When the government fears the people there is liberty; when the people fear the government there is tyranny."

Thomas Jefferson


steve

[LarryFine]

"When the government fears the people there is liberty; when the people fear the government there is tyranny."

Thomas JeffersonSo how do we turn the latter into the former?

[DanZ]

So how do we turn the latter into the former?
After the revolution, of course*. How else could we?

*Note to FBI, CIA, DHS and any other three letter agency that is listening: This is intended as a joke, nothing more. No one on this forum is planning a revolution.

[iwire]

Lets get back on topic and leave the revolution to PMs.

[DanZ]

Lets get back on topic and leave the revolution to PMs.
Okay. Will do. Sorry for any interruption.
I think you're better off calling local building departments and playing dumb to find out if permits and inspections are required. They're typically nicer to people who always try to play by the rules.;)

[petersonra]

one more permit story.

my neighbor wanted to put a roof over his front porch steps so he would not have to stand in the rain while unlocking his front door.

the village made him get a zoning variance because his roof was going to extend 6 inches into the 27 foot setback area required.

he also had to get some kind of permit from the army corp of engineers because it was claimed that his little roof (maybe 8x6) was going to somehow affect the watershed.

took almost a year to get all the paperwork for a $700 roof.

[wbalsam1]

one more permit story.

my neighbor wanted to put a roof over his front porch steps so he would not have to stand in the rain while unlocking his front door.

the village made him get a zoning variance because his roof was going to extend 6 inches into the 27 foot setback area required.

he also had to get some kind of permit from the army corp of engineers because it was claimed that his little roof (maybe 8x6) was going to somehow affect the watershed.

took almost a year to get all the paperwork for a $700 roof.

Sad testimony to how far out-of-hand things have gotten.

[DanZ]

Sad testimony to how far out-of-hand things have gotten.
Why is that sad? What's wrong with proving beyond a reasonable doubt that you're not messing with the watershed, or the flood plain, or putting roofs over spots that power lines or bucket trucks might use?

[petersonra]

Why is that sad? What's wrong with proving beyond a reasonable doubt that you're not messing with the watershed, or the flood plain, or putting roofs over spots that power lines or bucket trucks might use?
if you could see what was there before hand, and what he replaced it with, you would have a better feel.

he had an aluminum canopy at one time that blew off. It was only slightly smaller than what he wanted to build because he wanted to make it a little wider so he could put a lawn chair there next to his front door.

there is no flood plain issue because it is not in a flood plain. the power lines are behind the house perhaps 100 or 120 feet away and in the middle of the street perhaps 50 or 60 feet in front of the house.

i have no idea why its a watershed issue. i looked at the plot map when i bought my house and there is nothing there about it. ironically, at the time he had the roof built there was nothing behind him for close to 200 yards but an open field. plenty of water shed back there.

IIRC, the cost of the geo-whatever engineer to deal with the watershed permit was three or four times what it cost to build the thing.

[DanZ]

if you could see what was there before hand, and what he replaced it with, you would have a better feel.

he had an aluminum canopy at one time that blew off. It was only slightly smaller than what he wanted to build because he wanted to make it a little wider so he could put a lawn chair there next to his front door.

there is no flood plain issue because it is not in a flood plain. the power lines are behind the house perhaps 100 or 120 feet away and in the middle of the street perhaps 50 or 60 feet in front of the house.

i have no idea why its a watershed issue. i looked at the plot map when i bought my house and there is nothing there about it. ironically, at the time he had the roof built there was nothing behind him for close to 200 yards but an open field. plenty of water shed back there.

IIRC, the cost of the geo-whatever engineer to deal with the watershed permit was three or four times what it cost to build the thing.
I think you get the idea, and I hope you see my point. For many years, it was the norm to let people mess with these things, until someone figured out how bad it had gotten.

That's why we have a lot of the code and permit requirements we have. Or, at least why they started.

Now, we have to prove we aren't doing "x" and are following the code.

Imagine how bad it would have been if had built it without getting permits!

[steelersman]

Permits are required here for roofing, siding etc.
in my area permits are required for installing curtain rods and closet organizers.

[DanZ]

in my area permits are required for installing curtain rods and closet organizers.
Okay, that one's a little overboard!:grin: The ones that get me are the places that treat it like a MMO*, and not like building department.

*Money Making Organization

[wbalsam1]

Why is that sad? What's wrong with proving beyond a reasonable doubt that you're not messing with the watershed, or the flood plain, or putting roofs over spots that power lines or bucket trucks might use?

Reasonable doubt? :confused: Common sense would dictate there is a reasonable doubt that an 8X6 roof over a porch step will offer no more increase in threat to soil erosion than an uncovered step. Common sense would also seem to dictate that a roof over a step should be in step with almost any design parameter for a 1 family dwelling...so where's the zoning issue...green roof instead of brown? Just plain dumb-headed. A bureaucratic snag ( seven months) created by people with too much time on their hands. A camel is a horse designed by a committee.
Thank goodness "zoning" is unique to each area, and not uniformly applied. This allows someone to move away from a neighborhood devoid of common sense.

[petersonra]

in my area permits are required for installing curtain rods and closet organizers.
I wonder how many curtain rod permits are actually issued?

There is a reason for it though. The permits drive the property tax reassessment system in most places. They use every pretext they can to raise your property taxes.

I was actually proud of our county board chairman the other day. He said people should protest their assessments as a lot of houses are over assessed due to the slow down in home sales.

[DanZ]

Reasonable doubt? :confused: Common sense would dictate there is a reasonable doubt that an 8X6 roof over a porch step will offer no more increase in threat to soil erosion than an uncovered step.
What about the holes dug or drilled for pylons?

Common sense would also seem to dictate that a roof over a step should be in step with almost any design parameter for a 1 family dwelling...so where's the zoning issue...green roof instead of brown?
Almost any, not all. Even that house didn't have one like the one that was built! (Unless he used a canopy like the one that came off). And in some areas, yes, roof color can require a zoning variance. There are areas in ohio that require copper gutters, and they have to be painted, and the paint has to be maintained...

Thank goodness "zoning" is unique to each area, and not uniformly applied. This allows someone to move away from a neighborhood devoid of common sense.
True! What's the best thing about a house boat or a motor home? If you don't like your neighbors, you can just pick up and move!:wink: :roll: :grin:

[DanZ]

I was actually proud of our county board chairman the other day. He said people should protest their assessments as a lot of houses are over assessed due to the slow down in home sales.
A friend of mine is building a house, and just recently put grass in his front yard. Then, his house was reassessed. The value went from $250K to $450K. He called to find out why, since the last time it was assessed was less than a year ago, when the final inspection was taking place, and the response was "Well, we figured you just got finished with your house, so it's got to be worth more now.":rolleyes:

[LarryFine]

in my area permits are required for installing curtain rods and closet organizers. There is a reason for it though. The permits drive the property tax reassessment system in most places. They use every pretext they can to raise your property taxes.That's not the only reason: permits for work done by someone other than the homeowner require business licenses, which also increase revenue.

[LarryFine]

A friend of mine is building a house, and just recently put grass in his front yard. Then, his house was reassessed. The value went from $250K to $450K. He called to find out why, since the last time it was assessed was less than a year ago, when the final inspection was taking place, and the response was "Well, we figured you just got finished with your house, so it's got to be worth more now.":rolleyes:That can certainly be appealed.

[DanZ]

That can certainly be appealed.
Yeah, he's working on that now. He's also afraid of what would happen if he seeded his back yard!:grin:

Licensing is not only another source of revenue, it's a sort of guarantee that someone won't do truly hack work, since most municipalities charge for it, and require insurance and bonding to obtain a license.:rolleyes: ;)

[petersonra]

That's not the only reason: permits for work done by someone other than the homeowner require business licenses, which also increase revenue.
agreed. but its mostly about revenue, one way or the other.

[DanZ]

Yeah, they have become like...well, everything else. They started with a noble purpose, and somewhere along the lines, either got power hungry, or realized that it can be a cash crop.:roll: