Another "What would your number be?" Q

[ishium 80439]

I received a call yesterday from a guy looking for a ball park number on a job. He didn't want anything concrete just an idea of what neighborhood he should be thinking in.

He wanted to change out an FPE. House has a 200A UG service. Panel is inside flush mounted. House approximately 2800 sf built in 1984. I gave him a number figuring just a panel swap, assumed meter, disco, feeders etc were adequate for re-use. I told him that there may be a few curve balls that could effect the price and gave him a rough estimate w/ a $200 range with the understanding that it was only a rough estimate and actual site conditions would surely effect the final price.

He said something at the end of the conversation that made me scratch my head. I was wondering what some of you would give as from the hip estimate. I will post what my numbers were after a few responses so as not to influence anyone's thinking.

I understand that geographical differences influence this type of thing, I'm just trying to get a feel for where some of you might be.

[discusted electrician]

Never give out estimates without looking first. It could have been one of your competitors trying to get a feel for your price range which I've done before almost in this same manner.

[ishium 80439]

Never give out estimates without looking first. It could have been one of your competitors trying to get a feel for your price range which I've done before almost in this same manner.

Why is that a bad thing? I have made those phone calls before too. If I give a number that is realistic why do I care if my competition knows what I would charge? I often find out what others charge on bid jobs when the job is awarded.

And for this particular job I was happy to give a ball park over the phone because it was a buyer of a home that was looking to bring something to the closing table. In my experience this hardly ever leads to the work being done. So if I went out the site and gave a free estimate I would have been out the time. If I charged for the estimate he would have said "No thank you" and got someone else to oblige him, than if the work did actually get done than I would have absolutely no chance at it.

[Rewire]

panel swap ,easy $500.00 plus permit fee
panel = 150.00 /10-120.1-230,1-260 breakers
add.breakers = 50.00
labor 4hr@75.00/hr 300.00

[celtic]

$1200 to swap out a panel with Sq. D QO includes permit and inspection; extra for:
- AFCI CBs [not required here in NJ ~ yet]
- any repairs to grounding
- etc



He said something at the end of the conversation that made me scratch my head..
Don't keep us in suspense...what's the punch line? :D

[ishium 80439]

I told him between $900- $1100. He seemed surpised that I gave him such a low number. He said something to the effect of "You're the most reasonable out of the six people I've called." The fact that he called six people is a different rant, but it is important to note that he didn't tell me how many people he contacted until after I told him my price, if this holds true to how he handled his other phone calls than one can assume that people were giving him realistic numbers.

If he had said one or two others were higher than I wouldn't have thought twice about it, but six is signifigant. I guess what struck me the most about this is the strategy other EC's may be trying to adopt in these lean times. I would have expected him to say something like "I've got one guy that'll do it for a ham sandwich and a warm Coke." It's good to see that we aren't in the throat cutting paradigm yet but do you think that less work out there means EC's are trying to make up for lost profit on one job?

Maybe I'm reading too much into this but it struck me as really odd.

[R Bob]

I told him between $900- $1100. He seemed surpised that I gave him such a low number. He said something to the effect of "You're the most reasonable out of the six people I've called."

Permit
Coordinate w/POCO
Coordinate W/EI
Cut in flush mounted SquareD QO/Cutler Hammer CH and required CBs
Add additional grd rod + #6cu bare (EI usaually requires 2 total)
4-8hrs

Assumes the GEC to H2O line is suitable

NO repair/patch

$1500-1800 depending on conditions

[ishium 80439]

Coordinate w/POCO



There is a main ahead of the panel, POCO would not need to be involved.

[ishium 80439]

Just to play devil's advocate...

Most jurisdictions have language to the effect that if you are just R&Ring something and no wiring is being added that you don't need a permit. Assuming that this panel is perfect (including grounding etc) except for being an FPE would a permit be required for this job?

[Riograndeelectric]

Your price is in line with what I would estimate for just a panel swap out.

The problem I see with the lean times is that the low baller is just that low-balling and not conforming the work to current codes.
almost all the Guys I run into at the supply house are telling me that when the bid a job like to install a few new outlets or new lights that they are not installing/changing out the circuit to AFCI or using TR devices
Therefore, when I bid and include TR devices and changing circuit to AFCI I loose the Bid.
The EC are saying if it is not permitted then no TR devices or AFCI.

I can see having to lower your price a little to keep busy but this drives me nuts when I get beat out on Small service jobs and the EC is not code compliant.

I had one person tell me he has the customer sign off that he will not be using TR devices and or AFCI Protection or listing the items as optional upgrades.
So how do you compete with these Guys?

[celtic]

Just to play devil's advocate...

Most jurisdictions have language to the effect that if you are just R&Ring something and no wiring is being added that you don't need a permit. Assuming that this panel is perfect (including grounding etc) except for being an FPE would a permit be required for this job?

NJ is not one those many jurisdictions....permit required.

[GUNNING]

I just did a 100 amp panel with main. No meter, 6 -- 20 amp AFCI's. $950
Materials were $600 my cost. If you can do a 200 amp for $1200 your a friggin electrical genius.

200 amp panel swap out, w/ CAFCI's (why not ) $3400.

[celtic]

If you can do a 200 amp for $1200 your a friggin electrical genius.


Not only am I "a friggin electrical genius."....I also have mad skills :smile:

[R Bob]

There is a main ahead of the panel, POCO would not need to be involved.

OK...no POCO and MLO instead of MB pnl...ball park 1500.

[R Bob]

NJ is not one those many jurisdictions....permit required.

Same with D.C. Metro Area.

[ishium 80439]

Celtic and R Bob, just out of idle curiosity do you need a permit for everything you do? If some one buys a house and wants to remove the existing chandelier and put their's up does that require a permit?

Gunning, it wasn't a whole 200A service, just a panel swap. Figure about $170 for an MLO panel, another hundred plus for breakers and about 6 hours. I don't think I could get $3400 for that.

[R Bob]

OK...no POCO and MLO instead of MB pnl...ball park 1500.

Sorry...didn't catch the edit button in time!

After further consideration probably around 1200.
If there is a seperate service disco, I would not have to deal w/GEC and supplemental grounding.
Panel change only.
I don't think your too far off base.

[celtic]

Celtic ...., just out of idle curiosity do you need a permit for everything you do? If some one buys a house and wants to remove the existing chandelier and put their's up does that require a permit?
.

I'm glad you asked me that :smile:- you may not be so happy:mad: after you read all of this:
Ordinary Maintenance and Minor Work (http://www.state.nj.us/dca/codes/code_assist_internet/barrier_free/pdf/ommwk_6_2007.pdf)












j/k :wink: ..it's a short 8 pages...use the search function for "20 amps" - only 1 "hit".

[alfiesauce]

seems to me like that is saying you don't need a permit to change a light fixture.. right?

[celtic]

seems to me like that is saying you don't need a permit to change a light fixture.. right?
Right.

20A light, switch, outlet - no permit.

Used to be that a GFCI device swap required a permit....nice little money maker for me from real estate sales [older city, new CO inspection on resale] - there goes $150....

[Emanon]

I told him between $900- $1100. He seemed surpised that I gave him such a low number. He said something to the effect of "You're the most reasonable out of the six people I've called." The fact that he called six people is a different rant, but it is important to note that he didn't tell me how many people he contacted until after I told him my price, if this holds true to how he handled his other phone calls than one can assume that people were giving him realistic numbers.

If he had said one or two others were higher than I wouldn't have thought twice about it, but six is signifigant. I guess what struck me the most about this is the strategy other EC's may be trying to adopt in these lean times. I would have expected him to say something like "I've got one guy that'll do it for a ham sandwich and a warm Coke." It's good to see that we aren't in the throat cutting paradigm yet but do you think that less work out there means EC's are trying to make up for lost profit on one job?

Maybe I'm reading too much into this but it struck me as really odd.


This is an intresting observation and I am for it. It is about time we all start staying within the higher range quotes. For me, the slowdown has made me realize what I am worth, not how much can I do and how low can I go to stay busy. I have actually raised my prices on some jobs. I need to account for my estimating time that has increased. Jobs keep getting put on hold, canceled or given to the lowballer and even some contract jobs have stopped midway due to lack of funds.

On a side note and you guys really need to work on this. Every one here on this forum has something to share, but people are going astray from the OP topic. There are alot of 5 page diatribe posts containg "fillers", without anything of note actually responding to the OP. ie.. Permits and inspections need to be in another thread...

[ishium 80439]

Emanon, I agree w/ you, I started the thread and am guilty of leading it astray.

To my original point I often read on this board of people preaching charging what we are worth, not what we can do the job for and I agree. Certainly this one phone call doesn't establish a trend but from past experience with similiar situations I know that my pricing is sometimes high, sometimes low and sometimes in the middle of the pack. To get a response that I was the lowest out of six people (and apparently quite a bit lower from the HO's reaction) was surprising.

The one good thing that every down turn brings is that it shakes out the dead wood. Once the hacks and wannabe's can't make easy money they start to scurry away. I wonder if this is the leading edge of that?