Phone wiring

[ram11379]

Generally I am an old work electrician. But lately I have been doing some new homes and have been running cat5 for the phone lines as requested. Up untill this point the phone company has been doing the final connections, but I do not want to turn away work if I don't have to so....Would someone mind sharing with me why a person doesn't just tie the phone lines together anymore with a wire nut like it was done in the day? Also since that is not really done anymore I was curious if most everyone just uses a 110 block or a 66 block and if there is an easier way of tieing all the lines together. I am not quiet sure about what all the bridging is about on a 110 block. Thanks in advance.

[barbeer]

All the bridge clip does is connect the 2 left posts with the 2 right. If this is a resi application, I would just put all the wires under the 1 termination post, this comment could vary depending on what kind of equipment you have.

[Security101]

I think it has more to do with "that finished look" then actual function. For phone only, the twist and nut will work the same. If they are going to have other "termination" down there (TV, network, AV, etc) then the block will look better for sure.

Most customers will never change the wiring once dialed in. Those that will are the ones that are concerned more about it.

I use the 66 or the 110 depending on the "customer" (unless the job is spec-ed to something special). Only when you are looking at the possibility of network use of that wire would you need to make up a different scenario.

What really surprises me is that I still see Cat5 (and video for that matter) being pulled right alongside NM by many sparkies - why? I've had them tell me "it's just for phone so it doesn't matter", or "it's twisted pair so that issue is solved!" etc-etc.

Wish everybody would get on the same page:rolleyes:

Jim

[FlyFish]

Wish everybody would get on the same page:rolleyes:
Jim
I recently went to terminate Cat5 cables for both voice and data. What I found was everything looped by the EC. This in a new addition without any access to correct the nightmare. Old school but didn't use quad. He did use cat5 maybe because he couldn't find station wire.

Another job I went to repair why new Cat5 cabling wasn't working for a home network and found all the Cat5 cables bridged together with wire nuts. I installed a patch panel and even sold a 8 port switch and patch cables at department store prices.

If you're going to do all the work, terminate the voice cables onto 66M1-50 or 110 blocks. The residential standard for the jacks is 568A.
Terminate the data cables onto a patch panel. The standard for data is 568B.
Standards are not a law or code so you really can use either wiring configuration you wish just do the entire house the same.

[Stallzer]

The reason people don't use wire nuts on Category5 cable is the 100MHz rating of the cable. In order to maintain the 100Mhz rating of Cat5, only 1/2" can be untwisted of the individual pairs. 66B and 110 style termination blocks are set up to maintain the 1/2" twist.

[egnlsn]

The reason people don't use wire nuts on Category5 cable is the 100MHz rating of the cable. In order to maintain the 100Mhz rating of Cat5, only 1/2" can be untwisted of the individual pairs. 66B and 110 style termination blocks are set up to maintain the 1/2" twist.
That's for network. Unfortunately, wire nuts are used all over the place for phone.

I had a couple of 12-plexes where only one cable was pulled for both voice and data. They terminated the jacks fine (blu/brn for voice and org/grn for data), then in the closet they wirenutted the blues and the oranges. :-?

[FlyFish]

They terminated the jacks fine (blu/brn for voice and org/grn for data), then in the closet they wirenutted the blues and the oranges. :-?
In most cases 100mv voice on the w/bl won't cause a problem. Then there's 105vac at 20hz ringing and if the cable is long you get enough induced voltages on the w/o and w/g pairs to cause problems. Everything seems to work good but you're getting errors in the data transmission. When an error occurs the receiving device request a retransmission and the transmitting device is required to send the packets with the errors again. This isn't to bad if it happens only a few times but when it happens more often people start complaining about the PC being slow. You can only see these errors with a tester designed to display them.
If you're going to wire a house run 2 Cat5e cables to each room. I usually run 2 Cat5e and one RG-6Q to opposite sides of each room.

[hbiss]

They terminated the jacks fine (blu/brn for voice and org/grn for data)

That's fine?

There seems to be a lot of misinformation being bandied about here and that's not good. I'm dismayed by some of the things I'm reading, like a professional would even suggest wire nuts for voice wiring much less data- among other things.

I suggest that you ALL read the manual that Mark Heller, who is a member here has written on the subject. Do a search.

-Hal

[egnlsn]

In most cases 100mv voice on the w/bl won't cause a problem. Then there's 105vac at 20hz ringing and if the cable is long you get enough induced voltages on the w/o and w/g pairs to cause problems. Everything seems to work good but you're getting errors in the data transmission. When an error occurs the receiving device request a retransmission and the transmitting device is required to send the packets with the errors again. This isn't to bad if it happens only a few times but when it happens more often people start complaining about the PC being slow. You can only see these errors with a tester designed to display them.
If you're going to wire a house run 2 Cat5e cables to each room. I usually run 2 Cat5e and one RG-6Q to opposite sides of each room.
I had no major issues with them running one cable. I tried in vain to get the developer to run two, to no avail. My thing was them splicing the orange as if they were terminated on the voice jacks. Constantly shaking my head was I.

The best bet is to wire a house in accordance with ANSI/TIA/EIA Standard 570B, Grade 2 outlets, which calls for a minimum 2 CAT5e and 2 Series 6 cables. Quad is a waste unless unless the house is in an area where there is a lot of broadcast stuff.

[egnlsn]

They terminated the jacks fine (blu/brn for voice and org/grn for data)

That's fine?

There seems to be a lot of misinformation being bandied about here and that's not good. I'm dismayed that a professional would even suggest wire nuts for voice wiring much less data. I suggest that you all read the manual that Mark Heller, who is a member here has written on the subject. Do a search.

-Hal
I don't think anyone is advocating running just 1 cable or using wire nuts. It is ultimately up to the developer/builder/homeowner, and, unfortunately many of them have no clue. Often, the VDV cabling is done by the electrical contractor, and if they know what they should about VDV cabling, a great product is built for the customer. But many don't, and a substandard and inadequate product is built. Often, outlets are daisy-chained. Often, CAT3 cable is used. Sometimes, even 2-pair cable is installed.

Two developers and one general contractor readily come to mind. Often, they just see the additional cabling as an additional expense. They don't understand that most people will buy a house that will support their needs before they will buy a house that won't, even if it costs a little more.

When my son built his house a couple of years ago, the electrical contractor was going to put telephone outlets in the kitchen and the master bedroom, and TV outlets in the living room and the master bedroom. That was all for a 6 bedroom house.

[FlyFish]

Two developers and one general contractor readily come to mind. Often, they just see the additional cabling as an additional expense.

What's the big deal with these developers. Instead of 500K for the house it's 501K.

[hbiss]

Often, the VDV cabling is done by the electrical contractor, and if they know what they should about VDV cabling, a great product is built for the customer. But many don't, and a substandard and inadequate product is built.

Right, and when I started a topic on that very subject it went on for 12 pages with most of the posts trying to justify or defend that kind of work which made me question whether ECs should even be doing VDV.

That's why I'm saying if you want to be a professional learn the right way to do it. The OP is to be commended for asking for help. There are a lot of resources available from manufacturers like Leviton to that manual I mentioned above. It's just as easy to do this the right way as the wrong way so learn what the right way is.

-Hal

[Tracenet]

I always use these phone distribution modules in all of the apartments I wire and I have done a group of new home construction. These are fast and easy to install.

Leviton 1x9 Bridged Phone Distribution Module with Bracket
(Model # 47689-B)
http://www.twacomm.com/catalog/model_47689-B.htm

[egnlsn]

[I]The OP is to be commended for asking for help.
Absolutely!

[Richard A]

Hal, you are so correct, I do phones every day for a living and I will tell you time after time I get to a residence where it has been wire nutted and one jack, or more, doesn't work because the 24 AWG wire on either the tip or ring side is broken off, usually at the wire nut.

I Still say cat 5 is overkill but fine if you want to use it. Cat 3 for voice is more than adequate. I am however pleased that I am finding more homes where each jack is home run and not daisey chained, it makes things soooooo much better to redo.

The origianl question reffered to 110 or 66 block termination. I prefer 66 block as it is easier to test with a test set and isolate problems, 110 is primarily a space saving device.

Way to long winded sorry, DJ

[Jerry the Phone Guy]

Wire nuts? As in the kind you twist on? I've seen lots of phone installs, but never seen wire nuts. Unless you mean 'beanies', those flat white crimping connectors? I actually prefer 3M Scotchlok insulation displacement connectors (and so does Ma Bell, so I'm in good company). But in actuality, those are just used 'in a pinch' to get you out of a bind, where there's not enough slack to re-terminate PROPERLY.
But one reason to use a termination block is to provide a demarcation point or network interface which has been required by the FCC since 1984. (The FCC also requires inside wire to be a minimum of Cat 3.) The residential customer is supposed to be able to easily isolate their inside wire from the phone co.'s outside wire in the event of trouble to prove where the responsibility lies. Normally, the telco installs a special modular jack. This used to be indoors, but lately, they put them outdoors for easier lineman access.
Now, for multi-line installations typically found in multiple dwellings or businesses, the network interface is omitted and the demarcation point is typically inside on a termination block. In the beginning it was brass screw terminals, then 66 blocks. After that 110 disconnect blocks and now, Krone disconnect blocks. If you want to do this work, you have to have test adapters and punchdown blades for 66, 110 and Krone (although a 110 blade can double for a Krone).
The terminal block also makes for a much neater installation. Think of the difference between a doorbell wired with wire nuts versus a barrier strip and you'll see my point. And the 66 blocks are quite cheap now. Try and get the plastic cover, too, to keep dust out and prevent damage to the clips.

[Security101]

I want to clarify what I said in my first post about the wire nut method.

I would venture to say 95% of the electrician installs of "phone" only around here are wire nutted. Most of the guys I guess just don't try to sell the blocks or any further cleaning up, etc.

I always have to break into the bundle to locate the "unlabeled:mad:" Dmarc wire so I can provide line seizure for our alarm systems. This is something we do all the time. This also opens up problems when I do this as small 24awg wires don't like it when you back off the nut as they break or short ones don't make it back in to the nut.

I don't offer this kind of termination, we always offer a 66 or 110 type option if I am asked, or I sell it to the client, to offer a better layout for troubleshooting or future connection of these cables for network etc.

My post was trying to just confirm to the OP that technically if all wires are twisted and wire nuts properly installed, the "phones will work" whether I condone this practice or not. (and I don't :D)

Jim

[Jerry the Phone Guy]

Those Leviton modules are not cheap: $60?! If you mount them in the Leviton home wiring box that's another $30, meanwhile a 66 block can be had for $15 or less. Plus the 66 block has lots of available accessories like surge protectors and RJ31/38X jacks.
I thought of another reason why wire nuts are not reliable for telephone wiring: Because telephone lines have a constant DC voltage or "battery" applied, this causes corrosion on any joint which isn't gas-tight (exposed to air). This is why Central Office frame connections are still soldered! And why insulation displacement connections are all the rage in the field, where soldering would be impractical. So, what makes the contact gas-tight is the wire's insulation, so it's very important NOT to strip the insulation AND to trim off the pierced insulation on a re-punchdown. And to look askance at any screw terminal connection as a source of trouble.

[rexowner]

...And why insulation displacement connections are all the rage in the field, where soldering would be impractical. So, what makes the contact gas-tight is the wire's insulation, so it's very important NOT to strip the insulation AND to trim off the pierced insulation on a re-punchdown. And to look askance at any screw terminal connection as a source of trouble.

I don't think that's quite correct. A properly made connection
is gas tight between the wire and the metal of the connector.

[Jerry the Phone Guy]

You'd have to define 'properly-made connection' first. But, if we're talking about screw terminals, how many times have you guys opened up a switch or outlet in an old house and been amazed at the dark brown (sometimes green!) that the copper wire has turned to under the screw, that's obviously not gas-tight. It still works for AC (more or less), but with a constant DC voltage on the circuit as in a phone line, it causes static. This is why the so-called 'tip' conductor is actually earth grounded at the central office, to minimize electrolysis of underground cables.

[rexowner]

You'd have to define 'properly-made connection' first. But, if we're talking about screw terminals, how many times have you guys opened up a switch or outlet in an old house and been amazed at the dark brown (sometimes green!) that the copper wire has turned to under the screw, that's obviously not gas-tight. It still works for AC (more or less), but with a constant DC voltage on the circuit as in a phone line, it causes static. This is why the so-called 'tip' conductor is actually earth grounded at the central office, to minimize electrolysis of underground cables.

Jerry,

Sorry, but you are incorrect.

The gas-tight connection in IDC's occurs at the metal, not at the insulation. Here is one easily accesible source with
other links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulation_displacement_connector

Do you have a source wrt your argument that the
insulation makes a gas-tight connection?

Insulation's purpose is to insulate, not to seal against
gas penetration. If your argument about not stripping insulation were correct,
then connections of any type would not be made with
wirenuts, screw-lugs or other connections including
IDCs which make a gas-tight seal at the connection.

[MAK]

Jerry,

Sorry, but you are incorrect.

The gas-tight connection in IDC's occurs at the metal, not at the insulation. Here is one easily accesible source with
other links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulation_displacement_connector

Do you have a source wrt your argument that the
insulation makes a gas-tight connection?

Insulation's purpose is to insulate, not to seal against
gas penetration. If your argument about not stripping insulation were correct,
then connections of any type would not be made with
wirenuts, screw-lugs or other connections including
IDCs which make a gas-tight seal at the connection.

If your source is Wikiepedia couldn't I just change the whole article to support my point of view?:wink:

[rexowner]

If your source is Wikiepedia couldn't I just change the whole article to support my point of view?:wink:

I guess so. The original sources footnoted in wikipedia
were 3M and another jellybean source, so I thought it
was credible. I forget who the second one is.

Here is another source:
IDCs work because the "force from the contact
against the relatively soft copper conductor provides
the gas-tight connection by gripping the wire."
. This is quoted from a textbook:
(page 163 of "Connection in Electronic Assemblies",
by Anthony J. Bilotta)
http://books.google.com/books?id=8naDs3JdxAcC&pg=PA163&lpg=PA163&dq=3M+IDC+gas-tight&source=web&ots=mj4ZjUJEmy&sig=WmQ01TYsnbPQBwJ79al-a-v1pSo&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result#PPA163,M1

Unless this textbook writer and every other credible
source I've seen on IDCs are wrong, the insulation
has nothing to do with it, and the metals have everything
to do with it.

WRT the earlier comment on not stripping the insulation -
that's done so wires don't short each other out via
inadvertant contact -- it has nothing to do with making
a gas-tight connection.

[Jerry the Phone Guy]

Boy is my face pomegranet?! :mad: But, honestly, I was merely going by what was written about IDC on Mike Sandman's great website for phone installers. Checking back, I can't find that article, perhaps he took it down for a good reason? :D

[MAK]

Boy is my face pomegranet?! :mad: But, honestly, I was merely going by what was written about IDC on Mike Sandman's great website for phone installers. Checking back, I can't find that article, perhaps he took it down for a good reason? :D

I found an article on that site, but I'm not ready to buy into it yet.:wink:
http://www.sandman.com/telco.html

[Security101]

I found an article on that site, but I'm not ready to buy into it yet.:wink:
http://www.sandman.com/telco.html


Me neither! :grin:

Makes ya think about "all that unused power" though - hummmm

Jim

[Jerry the Phone Guy]

Yeah, I found this idea intriguing, too, until I realized that if you draw more than about 20 mA, it takes the phone off the hook! (48V @ 20 mills is only about 1 watt.) I suppose if you plugged that into a DC-DC converter, you might be able to step down the voltage and step up the current? And then if you wanted to use the phone, you'd have to unplug the charger or put up with miserable quality. Still, perhaps you could add a circuit which took the charger off the line when the receiver was picked up?

[hbiss]

You do realize that Mike Sandman has a great sense of humor and that technology as well as the products are tongue-in-cheek. It's all a joke guys!

-Hal

[egnlsn]

It does sound like something that would be in The Onion (http://www.theonion.com/content/index).

[electricalperson]

i use a 66 block for phones. a nice neat 66 block can look like a work of art. i dont really use bridge clips i just loop the little phone wires. a wire nut works just as well but a 66 block is a much more professional installation. even those little dolphin clips work