Maintenance man almost got fried !!!

[Mule]

Got a call today from a maintenance man that works full time for a client of mine out on a large ranch/museum. He called to ask me some questions reguarding some water pump controls that had not worked in over ten years. He a decent repair man, but not an electrician.

He said he tested a couple of wires with his fluke and the meter smoked in his hands !!......Then he (dummy)lifts a wire off a screw and when he goes to reland it, it arcs across when he get about a 1/4 inch from the screw......Then he tells me that the power companies pole had one fuse hanging down. I told him to thank god for sparing his life....!!!

So I told him to back away from it and NOT to touch it again, that it appeared that there was a short in winding, or some sort of a fault in the transformer bank, and he could be dealing with 7200v or perhaps higher. So I said call poco Now ASAP so they can pull the other two fuses, and also to caution tape the area off untill they get there. He didnt seem to quite get it, so I asked him, do you want me to come out there? (18miles) he said "AH when ever your out here next" duh....So I knew then that he was not putting enough importance on the issue. So I hung up the phone, turned around and called the service center (power company) directly and told them. They sent out a service man, Havent heard the results yet, but Im curious to hear what happened.

So Im assuming these are oil filled transformers, and a 3phase bank....So is it possible to get a primary to secondary fault? Or perhaps a ground fault with one phase blown, and the other phasing drifting or floating?..trying to figure out what could have happened...or I guess a primary stinger might have fallen down across the secondary connections?

[quogueelectric]

I have seen 2400v fuses tested with a fluke meter that havent turned out so good for the untrained electrician. He is dead now. The arc flash across the 600v meter killed him. He thought it would read out of range. He was wrong.

[wireguru]

i cant for the life of me find it, but a long time ago there was a guy who entered a mislabeled piece of switchgear and tested something with his wiggy. The gear was labeled 277/480 (i believe) but it was really 4160 or something. The wiggy exploded sending him to the ER with burns and a million slivers of copper from the coil embedded in his body

[Mule]

Back in the late 70's, the day I hired on to a petroleum company, the supervisor drove me straight to accident scene where a IBEW electrical contractor was severely burned. They had just set a pad mount transfomer that had a few secondary 480v breakers inside. The electrician used a analog meter (triplet or simpson) to check voltage on the line side of the main breaker. Turns out that the insulation was stripped back too far beyond the bakelite sheilds between the phases on the breaker. So when he landed the leads from the low resistance style analog meter it drew an arc, breaking down the air gap, and it went phase to phase. The rest of the story is real gory, needless to say he never worked again, and spent a couple of years trying to survive. And today, I still find it hard to believe that a low voltage such as 480 broke over like this....amazing.

So the way I understand it, is that when the air gap is broken this way, the copper puts off a gas that is very conductive, hence the breakover...bad news.

So the company told all of the electricians to throw away, or take home their company supplied simpson meters, and they purchase all new "high resistance" digital meters for everyone...I think then they were Beckman's at the time.

So yes Im ALWAYS carefull using a wiggy which IMO should not be used around 480 as it does draw an arc. If you do use it, land the leads fast and firm IMO dont "lazy in" with the leads and give it a chance to arc from the load of the solenoid inside the wiggy.

[dbaird]

This should be required reading for all electricians:

http://www-group.slac.stanford.edu/essg/pdf/ABCs_of_Multimeter_Safety.pdf

[zog]

This should be required reading for all electricians:

http://www-group.slac.stanford.edu/essg/pdf/ABCs_of_Multimeter_Safety.pdf

Yes it should. In my experience from training thousands of electricians very few of them are aware of the CAT requirements for meters.

[MikeGee]

Some days I wake and wonder why I am still in this field. I guess you can say I have a fear of electricity. I am not talking about 480 and below (I use my fingers of one hand to test for 208V) Then I hear stories like the ones I have been reading here. Something being mislabeled. This is the reason I am not very willing to try new things within this trade. If I have not done it by now I may never do it.

In the end I am still in this feild because it is the only thing that I am good at to earn money.

This might explain why I am 28 and 1/4 of the hair on my head is gray. I have chin hair that is gray.

[zog]

I use my fingers of one hand to test for 208V

Why? Too lazy to get your meter or just never trained by anyone who had a clue?

[nolabama]

why would you want to purposely touch 208

[electricalperson]

a lot of people used to test for voltage with there fingers. i think it was 480sparky that posted pages of an old electricians handbook and that method of voltage testing was an industry standard at the time

[MAK]

This might explain why I am 28 and 1/4 of the hair on my head is gray. I have chin hair that is gray.

Maybe too much voltage!?:D

[nolabama]

oh ok i just thought in todays world that would be foolish with cheap non contact testers out there - ive heard tell that their was an inspector in this area that did that with his fingers - i just feel that 208 hurts to much to do that

[jrannis]

Ive been known to stick my finger in the lamp holder or touch both sides of a receptacle but, I dont know about the 208 thing. That might be worth a trip out to the truck.

I knew a couple of guys from the ABC side of the business that were looking for an underground junction box to repull a feeder. They found one.
Just to veryify that it was what they were looking for, they decided that putting a sheet metal screw through the insulation was the way to go.

BANG! it was 4160! They had to shut down the school while they looked for a cable splicer to bail them out. Suprisingly, they didnt have a lost time injury

[Fulthrotl]

Ive been known to stick my finger in the lamp holder or touch both sides of a receptacle but, I dont know about the 208 thing. That might be worth a trip out to the truck.

I knew a couple of guys from the ABC side of the business that were looking for an underground junction box to repull a feeder. They found one.
Just to veryify that it was what they were looking for, they decided that putting a sheet metal screw through the insulation was the way to go.

BANG! it was 4160! They had to shut down the school while they looked for a cable splicer to bail them out. Suprisingly, they didnt have a lost time injury

it's not done any longer, but at one time it was common for LADWP
personnel to tap into station power cables in underground substructures
to get power for tools and lights when working, thus saving the need
for running a genset. it was done with a drywall screw, and when the
work was done, screw was removed and cable taped up with scotch 33.

the practice ended when a newbie put a drywall screw into a cable
operating at 34.5 kv.


randy

[mikeames]

Scary reminder of what can happen to us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX9ktjqcMvM

[MikeGee]

Why? Too lazy to get your meter or just never trained by anyone who had a clue?


Well lazy to start and the first mechanic I ever worked with in Oct 2008 was 58 years old. The first mechanic he worked with was his father. His father did it so it kinda came down to me.

I dont do it often. Maybe 5 times in 8 years.

[MikeGee]

a lot of people used to test for voltage with there fingers. i think it was 480sparky that posted pages of an old electricians handbook and that method of voltage testing was an industry standard at the time

exactly. The youngest electrician I worked with right now is 48 and the oldest is 66.

[MikeGee]

i just feel that 208 hurts to much to do that

208 doesnt hurt. At least not me. To me it only hits maybe 15% of my pain tolerence limit.

lol i went beyond putting a 9volt battery on my tongue to putting together the neg. of one 9 volt battery and the pos. of another 9volt then placing the remaining terminals on my tongue. I was making my tongue pulsate.

[peter d]

208 doesnt hurt. At least not me. To me it only hits maybe 15% of my pain tolerence limit.

Sure, whatever you say. :confused:

You're clearly joking, right?

[zog]

208 doesnt hurt. At least not me. To me it only hits maybe 15% of my pain tolerence limit.

lol i went beyond putting a 9volt battery on my tongue to putting together the neg. of one 9 volt battery and the pos. of another 9volt then placing the remaining terminals on my tongue. I was making my tongue pulsate.

You are the reason I want to leave this forum sometimes, you are an embarassment to your trade and clueless on the dangers of electricity.

[zog]

And.. I forgot to add your comments are likely to get someone else killed and I ask that the moderators ban you from this forum.

[electricalperson]

Well lazy to start and the first mechanic I ever worked with in Oct 2008 was 58 years old. The first mechanic he worked with was his father. His father did it so it kinda came down to me.

I dont do it often. Maybe 5 times in 8 years.

why not just use a 40 dollar knopp tester? what if your in a building with 480 and 208 and they used the wrong colors? that 208 could be 480 and you might of died. just because old timers do it doesnt make it correct

[iwire]

And.. I forgot to add your comments are likely to get someone else killed and I ask that the moderators ban you from this forum.


We will not be banning members just because they work in ways you and I find disturbing.

[Rockyd]

If it's an AC issue, first thing out of my pocket normally is one of those $20 dollar wands. Cheap? Yes, but it has saved me more than once.

I know, it says good from 50 to 600 VAC. Used it from 110 to 138K - works at about 15 to 18 feet on 138K.

If it squeals, my level of caution, is upped quite a bit as to how else, I conduct investigating (testing).

[sgeers]

We will not be banning members just because they work in ways you and I find disturbing.

I actually find it appalling the way that such unsafe, life threatening, potentially catastrophic work is still being done in this day and age in our field. Apparantly the safety videos and programs these companies spend their money on are not effective enough to deter the trainees and even experienced electricians from potentially killing themselves and others by making these well-documented and reported mistakes over and over and over again.
Just remember, "It won't happen to me", is chiseled on many of our forefathers tombstones.

[cadpoint]

This is a very fine line! With repeative articles are listed here stating "hot work" limitations, but any person is free to state that their a fool and how to...

[zog]

We will not be banning members just because they work in ways you and I find disturbing.

I cant accept that, I have seen to many fatalities over my career in training from poeple with that same attitude to accept or condone those types of comments.

[zog]

This is a very fine line! With repeative articles are listed here stating "hot work" limitations, but any person is free to state that their a fool and how to...

I understand this is a fine line and I am willing to toe it to save a life, I have before and can prove it, wish I could have saved more. I have had enough calls from safety people for training courses AFTER and accident that I know something happened from the tone of thier voice and th questions they ask that someone recently was killed at thier facility. I would straight out ask "What happened?" before they ever said that something did, when they asked "how did you know?" I would just reply "I have heard it too many times"

[celtic]

.... I am not very willing to try new things within this trade. If I have not done it by now I may never do it.


.... I am 28 ....

Good luck with that...

[LarryFine]

Ive been known to stick my finger in the lamp holder or touch both sides of a receptacle . . . Me, too, but never on purpose. :roll:

[JohnJ0906]

And.. I forgot to add your comments are likely to get someone else killed and I ask that the moderators ban you from this forum.

Zog, would you rather someone be banned, not return, and continue doing things dangerously, or stay here, and hopefully learn to do things safely?

[iwire]

I cant accept that, I have seen to many fatalities over my career in training from poeple with that same attitude to accept or condone those types of comments.

So your answer is to kick him to the curb instead of educate?:confused:

I can not accept that.

[zog]

Zog, would you rather someone be banned, not return, and continue doing things dangerously, or stay here, and hopefully learn to do things safely?

Good point, I just want to see his attitude rub off on anyone, this guy is only 28 and thinks he knows everything and has done everything and I dont see him changing his ways until he gets hurt badly by his practices, then maybe he will grow up.

[mikeames]

208 doesnt hurt. At least not me. To me it only hits maybe 15% of my pain tolerence limit.

lol i went beyond putting a 9volt battery on my tongue to putting together the neg. of one 9 volt battery and the pos. of another 9volt then placing the remaining terminals on my tongue. I was making my tongue pulsate.

Did it occur to some that people may write this just to provoke some on this forum. Comments like these should just be ignored. If his 15% tolerence had any truth it would mean his 100% "pain" (as he calls it) limit would be @1400 volts. Breathing Carbon monoxide has no pain but it still kills.

[nolabama]

a lot of us are taught bad habits, and their are a lot of bad electricians out there teaching others to be worse; comming to this forum and others like it has taught me not to do some things that is commonplace in my shop and others - before i came to this web site i would commonly short between phases to find a breaker - it was what i was taught - i did this once between the a and b of a 60 amp stove recepticale once - tripped the main service for the condo and should have been injured - quite the arc i will say - but after comming here i dont do this or a few other stupid things that i used to do ( a $35 circut finder makes you look like you know what your doing also) and if you flame a guy for using his body for a load tester you might just save his life - but if you have already learned everything their is to know about electricity at 28 you might not

[celtic]

******WARNING*********
****GRAPHIC MATERIAL****
******WARNING*********


13 minute video on electrical safety.
Some of the images are graphic in nature.
If you work with electricity, you should be aware of the potential outcome for careless acts.


Maybe a little refresher is in order:
http://www.electriciancalculators.com/safety/electrical_safety.html

[PCN]

In the end I am still in this feild because it is the only thing that I am good at to earn money.



Your not going to be earning money if your in the hospital or worse!

Just because the "old timers did it" doesn't make it right. They thought asbestos was a good idea too, look how that turned out.

Bottom line here is, it's too simple to just grab your meter and test things safely.
You should listen to advise of some of the other forum members MikeGee, there are many many years of experience speaking. These guys know their stuff.
" When in doubt test it out" (with a wiggy!):smile:

[Mule]

You know, there seems to be a certain sense of "male pride" or "toughness" or "Stardum" in being an electrician. You see it in Lineman, and wireman alike. Especially when we talk about working live voltages, or walk around with those rubber gloves on, or talk about testing with our bare fingers. :rolleyes: Then, when we talk about these issues in the general puplic, we have an automatic audience at full attention, because the general public is generaly scared, and respectfull of electricity. This makes us feel like a real man !!

So if we get past those false senses, and think about safety, our families, and the wellness of others, and, the increasing laws that are put in place to save us from such foolishness, we will realize its SMART to do it right... AND the more we act in the foolish ways, and, the more accidents that happen, the more these laws are put into place, and frankly Im sick of being choked down with such laws.

[charlie]

It is interesting to note that I knew everything in about 6 months on the job. It took about 6 months to get a feel for how much I didn't know. After a couple of years, I felt like an idiot for my lack of understanding. I am now an expert . . . which is to say, I now know how much I don't know but I generally know where to go to get the answer.

I am surprised I got out of the trade as a working electrician, alive. I knew how to get the work done but I didn't do it safely all the time. My dad taught me to touch the hot and ground with one hand to see if the circuit was hot. If it didn't hurt too much, it was 120! That was a long time ago. You guys are right, there are correct and dangerous ways to check out circuits. Using a meter and proper PPE is the only way to make sure it is dead or to trouble shoot circuits and equipment.

We used to have a policy that stated, "If it isn't grounded, it isn't dead." In my mind, that is still good advice. :smile:

[Fulthrotl]

I am surprised I got out of the trade as a working electrician, alive. I knew how to get the work done but I didn't do it safely all the time. My dad taught me to touch the hot and ground with one hand to see if the circuit was hot. If it didn't hurt too much, it was 120! That was a long time ago. You guys are right, there are correct and dangerous ways to check out circuits. Using a meter and proper PPE is the only way to make sure it is dead or to trouble shoot circuits and equipment.
:smile:

the old curmudgeons here have been in the industry long enough
to have attended funerals of darwin award candidates, both in
the trade, and in personal life. that's why i own a 200 mph motorcycle
that'll never see anything like that with me in the saddle. not any more.

and to me, the poster who started this multi player rant was just trolling
for a reaction, which he got. good for him. several of the old guys
who were still working when i was a muppet tested voltage with the
fingers, and got away with it, becuase they had reduced conductivity,
so they got less of a blast than a young guy.

it's all in a days work of being 28, going on 14, and needing to show
how hangs the winkie. this here is the 'net, and he can't do donunts in
the parking lot at starting time to let us know his stud index.

banning people for being themselves would, at one point or another,
remove most of us, particularly me.

'sides, this here's america, land of the movie "jackass", which had to
have 2 sequels, 'cause the first movie wasn't enough.

[PCN]

I saw a sign in a diner down in southern Utah many years ago that said:

" Hire a teenager while they still know everything"

That about sums it up.

[satcom]

You know, there seems to be a
or "toughness" or "Stardum" in being an electrician. You see it in Lineman, and wireman alike. Especially when we talk about working live voltages, or walk around with those rubber gloves on, or talk about testing with our bare fingers. :rolleyes: Then, when we talk about these issues in the general puplic, we have an automatic audience at full attention, because the general public is generaly scared, and respectfull of electricity. This makes us feel like a real man !!

So if we get past those false senses, and think about safety, our families, and the wellness of others, and, the increasing laws that are put in place to save us from such foolishness, we will realize its SMART to do it right... AND the more we act in the foolish ways, and, the more accidents that happen, the more these laws are put into place, and frankly Im sick of being choked down with such laws.

I remember some moron at a manufacturing plant telling a young gent, new to the company,
" What do you expect, they will shut everything down so you can work on the equipment."

He was made a fool of, for not changing a 100A distribution breaker hot, so the company head electrical moron, proceds to remove the breaker hot, after the fire department and rescue crew left, they all talked about how Mr not it all, will be spending months in the burn unit.

I always trust the guys that ask questions, not show any (toughness" or "Stardum" in being an electrician)

[MikeGee]

Well lazy to start and the first mechanic I ever worked with in Oct 2008 was 58 years old. The first mechanic he worked with was his father. His father did it so it kinda came down to me.

I dont do it often. Maybe 5 times in 8 years.

I meant oct. 2000

[MikeGee]

You guys are 100% right. I do realize the dangers involve. Maybe I should have kept them to myself because of those that might read this and may want to try it. I didnt think about other. I am really sorry for the foolish statements that I have made. I think I will discontinue those practices. I do own a Greenlee wand tester an Ideal digital meter and a Fluke 322. I will be putting them to use on everything from now on. Thanks for showing me the error of my ways.

[MikeGee]

You know, there seems to be a certain sense of "male pride" or "toughness" or "Stardum" in being an electrician. You see it in Lineman, and wireman alike. Especially when we talk about working live voltages, or walk around with those rubber gloves on, or talk about testing with our bare fingers. :rolleyes: Then, when we talk about these issues in the general puplic, we have an automatic audience at full attention, because the general public is generaly scared, and respectfull of electricity. This makes us feel like a real man !!

So if we get past those false senses, and think about safety, our families, and the wellness of others, and, the increasing laws that are put in place to save us from such foolishness, we will realize its SMART to do it right... AND the more we act in the foolish ways, and, the more accidents that happen, the more these laws are put into place, and frankly Im sick of being choked down with such laws.

You know I have been doing silly things and at the same time. Saying I'd never be a lineman. I just learned a lot in 10 min.

[Mule]

You guys are 100% right. I do realize the dangers involve. Maybe I should have kept them to myself because of those that might read this and may want to try it. I didnt think about other. I am really sorry for the foolish statements that I have made. I think I will discontinue those practices. I do own a Greenlee wand tester an Ideal digital meter and a Fluke 322. I will be putting them to use on everything from now on. Thanks for showing me the error of my ways.

Now there's a sign of a real man !!!

[zog]

You guys are 100% right. I do realize the dangers involve. Maybe I should have kept them to myself because of those that might read this and may want to try it. I didnt think about other. I am really sorry for the foolish statements that I have made. I think I will discontinue those practices. I do own a Greenlee wand tester an Ideal digital meter and a Fluke 322. I will be putting them to use on everything from now on. Thanks for showing me the error of my ways.

Glad to hear it, get some FR clothing, rubber gloves, and safety training and be safe.

[MikeGee]

Glad to hear it, get some FR clothing, rubber gloves, and safety training and be safe.

some anti-stupid training.

[sparky723]

I told him to thank god for sparing his life....!!!

God is spelled with a capital 'G'. That is unless you are speaking of an idol.;)

[Karl H]

Maybe I'm getting old or just getting smarter.One "pet-peeve"
I have (and I have many) is hearing a guy say,"I could'nt find the ckt
so I shorted it out on the box to trip the breaker." My brain screams
"YOUR AN IDIOT !" I really need to get some GRAPHIC electrical
burn photos to keep in my truck for people like that.
25 years in the trade and I have NEVER touched a HOT wire on purpose.
I've done 25 years being smart. Not trying to show how "Tough" I am.
I saw a 6 year old girl get her arms blown off when she crawled inside
an unlocked utility PMT when I was a kid.So I 've always known the dangers
of electricity.People who don't value their own safety are certainly not going to value the safety of others.

[celtic]

I really need to get some GRAPHIC electrical
burn photos to keep in my truck for people like that.


Here ya go:

OSHA Construction eTool: Electrical Incidents - Burns and Other ... (http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/construction/electrical_incidents/burns.html)
[2 clicks to pix]

Electrical Flash Burns - Medical Illustration, Human Anatomy Drawing (http://www.doereport.com/generateexhibit.php?ID=12090)
[1 click to pix]

http://www.nppa.org/professional_development/self-training_resources/look_up_report/Effects%20of%20Current-3.jpg
[no click to pix]

[ptonsparky]

Had a location with grounded delta 480v that would not start the motors. Voltage seemed to be okay via the indicating lights on the Beha tester but after several checks I noticed the long spark that followed the tip of the tester as it disconnected from the lugs. Got my real meter out and about fell over. Don't remember the voltage reading now but it was well over what the Beha should have been subjected to. That was when I quit hanging that tester around my neck while making voltage checks. Also learned that POCO can have crew with trucks & transformers enroute within 1/2 hour of phone call.

[Mule]

God is spelled with a capital 'G'. That is unless you are speaking of an idol.;)

YOU are absolutely correct thanks......

[charlie]

. . . I saw a 6 year old girl get her arms blown off when she crawled inside an unlocked utility PMT . . .
That is why the NESC requires two conscience acts to unlock a pad mounted transformer or other types of pad mounted equipment. In my world, it is the physical removal of a padlock and then the removal of a recessed penta headed bolt. Add to that requirement, most electric utilities use dead front primary (elbow terminators and the like for lightning arrestors, dead end bushing caps, etc.) to give a bit more safety when the equipment is open. Leaving pad mounted equipment open is normally grounds for dismissal. :)

[bjp_ne_elec]

Had a location with grounded delta 480v that would not start the motors. Voltage seemed to be okay via the indicating lights on the Beha tester but after several checks I noticed the long spark that followed the tip of the tester as it disconnected from the lugs. Got my real meter out and about fell over. Don't remember the voltage reading now but it was well over what the Beha should have been subjected to. That was when I quit hanging that tester around my neck while making voltage checks. Also learned that POCO can have crew with trucks & transformers enroute within 1/2 hour of phone call.

Which Beha Tester did you have - most are rated above 600V (usually 690V). Was there an issue of being greater than 480V?

[ptonsparky]

Which Beha Tester did you have - most are rated above 600V (usually 690V). Was there an issue of being greater than 480V?

This was before the Cat ratings showed up on meters. The Fluke I used at the time doesn't have it. I am thinking plus side of 700v on the Fluke display. For some of you that is NBD but it sure was for me.

[zog]

I really need to get some GRAPHIC electrical
burn photos to keep in my truck for people like that.
.

Here is a series of pics from an accident at an old training customer of mine, this was a case of assuming a line was denerigized, they had isolated the wrong line and no one checked it.

[jrannis]

You are the reason I want to leave this forum sometimes, you are an embarassment to your trade and clueless on the dangers of electricity.

The amount of tickle you feel is equal to how hard you squeeze it with your fingers.

[zog]

The amount of tickle you feel is equal to how hard you squeeze it with your fingers.

Good, squeeze really hard.

[Mule]

Got a call today from a maintenance man that works full time for a client of mine out on a large ranch/museum. He called to ask me some questions reguarding some water pump controls that had not worked in over ten years. He a decent repair man, but not an electrician.

He said he tested a couple of wires with his fluke and the meter smoked in his hands !!......Then he (dummy)lifts a wire off a screw and when he goes to reland it, it arcs across when he get about a 1/4 inch from the screw......Then he tells me that the power companies pole had one fuse hanging down. I told him to thank god for sparing his life....!!!

So I told him to back away from it and NOT to touch it again, that it appeared that there was a short in winding, or some sort of a fault in the transformer bank, and he could be dealing with 7200v or perhaps higher. So I said call poco Now ASAP so they can pull the other two fuses, and also to caution tape the area off untill they get there. He didnt seem to quite get it, so I asked him, do you want me to come out there? (18miles) he said "AH when ever your out here next" duh....So I knew then that he was not putting enough importance on the issue. So I hung up the phone, turned around and called the service center (power company) directly and told them. They sent out a service man, Havent heard the results yet, but Im curious to hear what happened.

So Im assuming these are oil filled transformers, and a 3phase bank....So is it possible to get a primary to secondary fault? Or perhaps a ground fault with one phase blown, and the other phasing drifting or floating?..trying to figure out what could have happened...or I guess a primary stinger might have fallen down across the secondary connections?

So, I talked the maintenance man yesterday, and asked him what was the outcome. He said the power company only found a blown fuse, nothing wrong, probably lightning......So here's my question,

"What kind of transformer connection would have yeilding this scenerio above?" Or do they still have a problem? I havent been out there yet, nor have I talked to POCO about it...

[LarryFine]

The amount of tickle you feel is equal to how hard you squeeze it with your fingers.The reverse can also happen: the more tickle you feel, the harder you will squeeze.

The electricity usually wins that war.

[76nemo]

If I could only sware,..............

Why are some of you guys/gals using the old Wiggy's that have no CAT rating?????

Why doesn't it scare you because it was ONLY 480V????? Are you kidding me??? Why does the voltage level determine your personal worry????

Darn it, darn it, darn it. It seems there's sometimes no concern for the proper PPE, and then again, I hear discussions like this. Where do you think the negative statistics come from????????

Darn it:mad:

[Mule]

If I could only sware,..............

Why are some of you guys/gals using the old Wiggy's that have no CAT rating?????

Why doesn't it scare you because it was ONLY 480V????? Are you kidding me??? Why does the voltage level determine your personal worry????

Darn it, darn it, darn it. It seems there's sometimes no concern for the proper PPE, and then again, I hear discussions like this. Where do you think the negative statistics come from????????

Darn it:mad:

I thank you for your stern opinions, because safety is a good thing.

I dont know how old you are, but remember that these topics that your talking about havent been around all that long in reguard to the history of the electrician. I for one have never had any traing on Cat ratings of test instruments. Ive had a few "sampler" classes at seminars reguarding arc flash and the new 70E PPE requirments. But in truth the compliance with these issues are just being seen in our area. If you set down at the supply house and wait for a fire rated shirt to come in the door, you may set there all day.... I know of one petro chem company that requires clothing and rated meters, and the local POCO and thats it...

[zog]

If you set down at the supply house and wait for a fire rated shirt to come in the door, you may set there all day.... I know of one petro chem company that requires clothing and rated meters, and the local POCO and thats it...

You are missing the whole point, the 70E and OSHA rules (Most of which are not "new" at all) are geared towards not working on energized equipment, so there would be no reason any electrician would walk around all day wearing an FR shirt.

[Mule]

You are missing the whole point, the 70E and OSHA rules (Most of which are not "new" at all) are geared towards not working on energized equipment, so there would be no reason any electrician would walk around all day wearing an FR shirt.

Really? Thanks, but I dont think so, 70E is a relatively new to the regular wireman.....maybe not so to POCO's.....tell me when did it become law? Now when did Wiggy's come out? huge difference Please correct me if Im wrong...

I've worked where they were required FP clothing all of the time.....In fact, around here employers are not taking the efforts to calculate calories, they find that it is cheaper to go to the max and require you to wear the shirt all day...everyone wears jeans, employers dont approach the undergarment issue at all...

as far as working energized equipment, (Im talking normal work for me low voltage systems <600v) Im not going to kill the whole gear to work in one bucket..Im going to use my head

Tell me, out of 10 contractors, how many do you think are going through the whole permit process, and complying with 70E to the hilt???undergarmets..?? Maybe with larger EC's and larger employers, but outside of that, I doubt it seriously...

[bradleyelectric]

I worked at a steel mill for a few years. Some very old equipment. A lot of the overhead cranes were 250V DC the largest being charging cranes in the shut down Open Hearth mills and the Basic Oxygen Furnaces that replaced them. They are 500ton cranes. One night the linemen were doing some 480V switching and they accidently ended up in a 6900V gear with a wiggy. There were 4 people in the room. I was told the 2 that walked out of the room looked like dazed zombies with their skin melting off them. 1 was holding the wiggy and another touched the leads to the breaker. The 1 that was holding the wiggy was off work over a year and his wife begged him to retire till he did. The other 1 I saw once afterwards when he came to a christmas party. I couldn't go back in the room when he was pretty much carried in.

How does that happen to experienced men that know what they are doing? They were told that was the gear they wanted, didn't realize that the reason the lights on the light box were blowing when they thought they were testing to phase out was because they were on the wrong voltage. They thought they had a defective light box. Took out the wiggy and boom. Make sure you know what your doing when your testing. Don't just walk into something and be lead into something that will end your life as you know it.

[Mule]

I worked at a steel mill for a few years. Some very old equipment. A lot of the overhead cranes were 250V DC the largest being charging cranes in the shut down Open Hearth mills and the Basic Oxygen Furnaces that replaced them. They are 500ton cranes. One night the linemen were doing some 480V switching and they accidently ended up in a 6900V gear with a wiggy. There were 4 people in the room. I was told the 2 that walked out of the room looked like dazed zombies with their skin melting off them. 1 was holding the wiggy and another touched the leads to the breaker. The 1 that was holding the wiggy was off work over a year and his wife begged him to retire till he did. The other 1 I saw once afterwards when he came to a christmas party. I couldn't go back in the room when he was pretty much carried in.

So the root of the accident was...not knowing what they were working on? Lack of permit? If they did they would have, correct PPE and tools, I assume? It's not the wiggy's fault, that would have fried alot of different equipment, no?

[steelersman]

a lot of people used to test for voltage with there fingers. i think it was 480sparky that posted pages of an old electricians handbook and that method of voltage testing was an industry standard at the time
well this guy is 28 so he's not considered to be old school, so I would venture to say that he thinks it's "cool". Kinda like when some kids think it looks "cool" to have a cigarette in their mouth.

[steelersman]

208 doesnt hurt. At least not me. To me it only hits maybe 15% of my pain tolerence limit.

lol i went beyond putting a 9volt battery on my tongue to putting together the neg. of one 9 volt battery and the pos. of another 9volt then placing the remaining terminals on my tongue. I was making my tongue pulsate.
you must have some kinda sick fetish. You should seek help immediately.

[iaov]

why would you want to purposely touch 208Good question. This guy is probably not going to see much more than 28 doing anything this STUPID!! There is no other word for it.:mad:

[steelersman]

Good point, I just want to see his attitude rub off on anyone, this guy is only 28 and thinks he knows everything and has done everything and I dont see him changing his ways until he gets hurt badly by his practices, then maybe he will grow up.
I think you mean you DON'T want to see his attitude rub off on anyone.

[steelersman]

Zog, would you rather someone be banned, not return, and continue doing things dangerously, or stay here, and hopefully learn to do things safely?
John since you're in the same city as MikeGee maybe you can locate him and help him out.

[bradleyelectric]

So the root of the accident was...not knowing what they were working on? Lack of permit? If they did they would have, correct PPE and tools, I assume? It's not the wiggy's fault, that would have fried alot of different equipment, no?

The cause as I call it was they had an inexperienced crew leader put in his position for political reasons instead of someone with knowledge being in the possition. They were going from switching station to switching station. One of the top 3 linemen in the facility was sitting on a bench at the shop because he refused to work under that guy.

Crew leader didn't wait for the guys from the onsite power plant to get to the next switching station. He walked in and pointed at a swith gear and said that is it. The marking was a little confusing and it was very old gear that looked like old roll in 480V beastly breakers. He was wrong. The couple guys that were working with him was checking phases with the light sticks and blew the bulb.

The other 2 of the top 3 linemen on the facility walked in and asked what was happening. They were told the light box was bad so the best lineman I ever met who had a lot of experience on the facility pulled out his wiggy and ended his life as he knew it.

The crew from the power station was just walking in the door when the flash happened. If either of the other crews would have gotting there first they wouldn't have been lead to the wrong gear and blindly accepted that that was the correct gear. A lot of the way things were done were changed as a result of that night. Yes that would have fried a lot of test equipment. No one their had 6900V test equipment with them because they were doing 480V switching.

[steelersman]

You know, there seems to be a certain sense of "male pride" or "toughness" or "Stardum" in being an electrician. You see it in Lineman, and wireman alike. Especially when we talk about working live voltages, or walk around with those rubber gloves on, or talk about testing with our bare fingers. :rolleyes: Then, when we talk about these issues in the general puplic, we have an automatic audience at full attention, because the general public is generaly scared, and respectfull of electricity. This makes us feel like a real man !!

So if we get past those false senses, and think about safety, our families, and the wellness of others, and, the increasing laws that are put in place to save us from such foolishness, we will realize its SMART to do it right... AND the more we act in the foolish ways, and, the more accidents that happen, the more these laws are put into place, and frankly Im sick of being choked down with such laws.
Well said Mule.

[steelersman]

This was before the Cat ratings showed up on meters. The Fluke I used at the time doesn't have it. I am thinking plus side of 700v on the Fluke display. For some of you that is NBD but it sure was for me.
what do the CAT ratings mean?

[triplstep]

steelersman, here is some explanation of meter CATegories.

http://www-group.slac.stanford.edu/essg/pdf/ABCs_of_Multimeter_Safety.pdf

[JohnJ0906]

John since you're in the same city as MikeGee maybe you can locate him and help him out.

Anyone is welcome to contact me. I have certainly been helped enough by others here. :smile:

[zog]

Really? Thanks, but I dont think so, 70E is a relatively new to the regular wireman.....maybe not so to POCO's.....tell me when did it become law?

The 1979 NFPA 70E became law in 1981 when OSHA adopted it and it became the electrical safety standards in 10 CFR 1910

Now when did Wiggy's come out?

1918 is when the wiggiton solenoid voltage tester was 1st manufactured, basically the same technology as the ones many EC's use today.

I've worked where they were required FP clothing all of the time.....In fact, around here employers are not taking the efforts to calculate calories, they find that it is cheaper to go to the max and require you to wear the shirt all day...everyone wears jeans, employers dont approach the undergarment issue at all...

They are misunderstanding the requirements and will have to answr to OSHA if someone gets hurt.

as far as working energized equipment, (Im talking normal work for me low voltage systems <600v) Im not going to kill the whole gear to work in one bucket..Im going to use my head

That decesion is up to you but you are just a stastic waiting to happen, every year over 2000 arc flash victims are sent to burn centers from workplace accidents in the USA.

Tell me, out of 10 contractors, how many do you think are going through the whole permit process, and complying with 70E to the hilt???undergarmets..?? Maybe with larger EC's and larger employers, but outside of that, I doubt it seriously...


That number varies regionally, and depens on the size of the EC. Most larger shops have the training and PPE to comply to 70E, many industrial facilities require it to work on site. Smaller shops and ones that work mostly resi jobs it is rare for them to be 70E compliant. But that is changing.

[big john]

...One night the linemen were doing some 480V switching and they accidently ended up in a 6900V gear with a wiggy.... I've heard of accidents like this several times and I'll never really understand them: Maybe it's because I've seen very little medium voltage gear, but the insides of the stuff we have looks absolutely nothing like 480 gear. Wouldn't the stress-cones, grounding braids and insulators be a dead give-away that you were in the wrong terrirory? I can see how guys might not be familiar with what it was, but surely they had to know what it wasn't and I've never heard of 480 that looked like that....

-John

[bradleyelectric]

I've never heard of 480 that looked like that....-John


They have a lot of gear in that facility that doesn't come close to resembling modern gear. They have 480 gear that doesn't look like 480 gear. As far as I'm concerned they don't have a real good grasp of their distribution system anymore. They have some very antiquated equipment and have lost to much of the personel with experience on the system.