Four #12's

[chris kennedy]

I am installing some of these cans (http://www.haloltg.com/common/brands.cfm?pg=Detail&brand=Halo&category=Recessed%20Downlighting%3A%204%22%20Low%2 0Voltage&id=1591). The Jbox is marked max 4 #12's. The actual inside measurements of the box are 1½"×4¾"×3¼".

1½"×4¾"×3¼"=23cubes.

23cu/in÷2.25=10 #12's.

How did they come up with a max of 4?

[celtic]

I am installing some of these cans (http://www.haloltg.com/common/brands.cfm?pg=Detail&brand=Halo&category=Recessed%20Downlighting%3A%204%22%20Low%2 0Voltage&id=1591). The Jbox is marked max 4 #12's. The actual inside measurements of the box are 1½"×4¾"×3¼".

1½"×4¾"×3¼"=23cubes.

23cu/in÷2.25=10 #12's.

How did they come up with a max of 4?

I think you may have misread the instructions/fill:


• UL Listed for through branch
circuit wiring (maximum 8
No.12 ga., 90°C conductors).

http://www.cooperlighting.com/specfiles/pdf/Halo/H1499ICspecsheet.pdf


I think I have some of those cans laying around...lemme go check

PLEASE STAND BY......

[frizbeedog]

How did they come up with a max of 4?

Mabey 4 cables?

[frizbeedog]

Mabey 4 cables?

18 cubes for 8 conductors.

[chris kennedy]

Hang on, it says connectors, not conductors.

[frizbeedog]

Hang on, it says connectors, not conductors.

dude! .

[480sparky]

18 cubes for 8 conductors.

Plus 2.25 for the grounds = 20.25 in². Still would fit!

[chris kennedy]

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa80/chris_kennedy/halo.jpg

Is this a typo? Connectors suitable for 90°C?

[Dennis Alwon]

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa80/chris_kennedy/halo.jpg

Is this a typo? Connectors suitable for 90°C?

I think the way it is written is very poor. They are saying there is a max. of 4 connectors-- translated 4 12/2 cables not 4 #12 conductors. The 90C obviously is referencing the #12

[chris kennedy]

I think the way it is written is very poor. They are saying there is a max. of 4 connectors-- translated 4 12/2 cables not 4 #12 conductors. The 90C obviously is referencing the #12

So I can figure conductor fill as per 314.16?

[Dennis Alwon]

So I can figure conductor fill as per 314.16?


I still think you are limited to 4 12/2 cables or the equivalent-- it should be the same as 314.16 or purtie close.

[480sparky]

So I can figure conductor fill as per 314.16?

I would think the labeling would over-ride the NEC since it's more restrictive in this case.

I don't think you can multiply the dimension of a known jbox and use it to calculate box fill
Take a standard 4x4x1½. Works out to 24in². But T314.16(A) states the volume as 21in².

[celtic]

The spec on my cans are a bit different:

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb119/Celtic_12557/Halo/1108081453.jpg

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb119/Celtic_12557/Halo/1108081451.jpg

Close up:
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb119/Celtic_12557/Halo/1108081452.jpg

I don't know if you can see it...says (6) #14s :-?


Under that sticker, it's back to 8 #12s [again, crappy cell shot, sorry if you can't read it]
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb119/Celtic_12557/Halo/1108081452a.jpg

The instructions that come with the can make no mention of wire fill

[chris kennedy]

I still think you are limited to 4 12/2 cables or the equivalent-- it should be the same as 314.16 or purtie close.

Yup, and I agree with your earlier post, poorly written.

I would think the labeling would over-ride the NEC since it's more restrictive in this case.

110.3(B)?:smile:

I don't think you can multiply the dimension of a known jbox and use it to calculate box fill
Take a standard 4x4x1½. Works out to 24in². But T314.16(A) states the volume as 21in².Those are outside dimensions.

[celtic]

I would think the labeling would over-ride the NEC since it's more restrictive in this case.


I agree....BUT...if one is suing #12s and the label says "Max (6) #14s" then what?

6 #14s = 6 x 2.00 = 12cu. in.
12cu. in/2.25 = 5 #12s ?

That JB is HUGE ...so much for running a 3 wire NM to save money or for switching purposes.

2 #14/3 = 7:mad:

[LarryFine]

I don't think you can multiply the dimension of a known jbox and use it to calculate box fill
Take a standard 4x4x1½. Works out to 24in². But T314.16(A) states the volume as 21in².
I bet you could if you used the actual interior dimensions, and not the box's nominal size.

[chris kennedy]

That JB is HUGE ...

Well, I'll pack em' full, if the cover doesn't pop off when I close it, I'm golden.:grin:

[celtic]

Well, I'll pack em' full, if the cover doesn't pop off when I close it, I'm golden.:grin:


http://img.alibaba.com/photo/11404418/Shoe_Horn.jpg


I would go with a plastic one

:D :D

[480sparky]

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/11404418/Shoe_Horn.jpg


I would go with a plastic one

:D :D




Geez, that's so..... old school!

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Tools/press.jpg

[hillbilly1]

"Conductors" and "Connectors" are hard to translate in Chinese.:roll:

[chris kennedy]

"Conductors" and "Connectors" are hard to translate in Chinese.:roll:

You have a point, but as I understand it Halo is made in America and the All Pro is made in Mexico.

[frenchelectrican]

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa80/chris_kennedy/halo.jpg

Is this a typo? Connectors suitable for 90°C?


Chris.,

It kinda typo a little due I am fluent in French and somehow someone miswrote the connectors it should be conductors in english part

for some reason someone wrote it by mistake or did not check the grammer and with French and Spanish there is few extra words what it don't say in English

Merci,Marc

[celtic]

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb119/Celtic_12557/Halo/1108081451.jpg



I don't know if you can see it...says (6) #14s :-?




The instructions that come with the can make no mention of wire fill

Chris.,

It kinda typo a little due I am fluent in French and somehow someone miswrote the connectors it should be conductors in english part

for some reason someone wrote it by mistake or did not check the grammer and with French and Spanish there is few extra words what it don't say in English

Merci,Marc

:-?

This one says "conductors".

[chris kennedy]

somehow someone miswrote the connectors it should be conductors in english part


Well, back to square one. If that is supposed to say conductors then I can't even land two 12/2 mc's in there. Somethings not right here.

[Dennis Alwon]

Well, back to square one. If that is supposed to say conductors then I can't even land two 12/2 mc's in there. Somethings not right here.

Chris just wire the darn MC and don't worry about it. I just wired 20 Halo cans with mc-- What is the problem with using MC? The wire compartment is plenty big. Personally I prefer a jb box above with one tail down to each can but there should be no reason that two 12/2 mc cables wouldn't be allowed.

[cadpoint]

Second cup not kick in yet ?

I don't want to get into the #14 Vs #12.

I thought you already answered this?

Why aren't you running your lights in series?
Ok, give them a branch circuit box beside your light and give future electricians something to talk about!

I took a look out on the Wild Web and can only summarize one way that volume for area fill calculations is determined by using water displacement testing. In this case it would be pre-punch Area or sheet metal - Volume displacement.

Frankly, I was thinking the inside dimension minus all the area of the coins indented into the space and the 8 round corners (punched 4sq) added up to the smaller area calculation of a four sq box, as mentioned ealier.

[steelersman]

I am installing some of these cans (http://www.haloltg.com/common/brands.cfm?pg=Detail&brand=Halo&category=Recessed%20Downlighting%3A%204%22%20Low%2 0Voltage&id=1591). The Jbox is marked max 4 #12's. The actual inside measurements of the box are 1½"×4¾"×3¼".

1½"×4¾"×3¼"=23cubes.

23cu/in÷2.25=10 #12's.

How did they come up with a max of 4?
aren't these cans usually used for residential? I'm assuming that's what you are using them on, which then makes me wonder why they don't give a maximun # of 14's instead of 12 as mostly #14 is used for residential installations.

[roger]

Actually, the wording on the fixture would probably be for compliance with 410.11

410.11 Temperature Limit of Conductors in Outlet Boxes
Luminaires (fixtures) shall be of such construction or installed so that the conductors in outlet boxes shall not be subjected to temperatures greater than that for which the conductors are rated.


Branch-circuit wiring, other than 2-wire or multiwire branch circuits supplying power to luminaires (fixtures) connected together, shall not be passed through an outlet box that is an integral part of a luminaire (fixture) unless the luminaire (fixture) is identified for through-wiring.

Roger

[Pierre C Belarge]

The members of this site can discuss this all day, Chris's best bet is to contact the manufacturer on Monday, and see what they say.

There is not enough info for us here to actually come up with a code compliant consensus -CCC :wink:

[frizbeedog]

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa80/chris_kennedy/halo.jpg



The members of this site can discuss this all day, Chris's best bet is to contact the manufacturer on Monday, and see what they say.

There is not enough info for us here to actually come up with a code compliant consensus -CCC :wink:

Two out of the three instructions say conductors (conducteurs and conductores). The english version is a misprint.

I say there is enough information not to loose sleep over.

[Pierre C Belarge]

Two out of the three instructions say conductors (conducteurs and conductores). The english version is a misprint.

I say there is enough information not to loose sleep over.



How many 14 AWGs would you install based on this picture?

[chris kennedy]

How many 14 AWGs would you install based on this picture?

1½"×4¾"×3¼"=23cubes.

23cu/in÷2=11 #14's

[frizbeedog]

How many 14 AWGs would you install based on this picture?

Well I'm certainly not going to let a set of misprints keep me from installing a can light.

Measure the box. Do the Calc. Sleep tight.

:smile:

[Pierre C Belarge]

Chris
I am pretty sure you are taking tomorrow off...seeing as to how it is Veteran's Day Eve...this will give you the time necessary to call the manufacturer and get all of us the info we are looking for. 8-):grin:

[chris kennedy]

Chris
I am pretty sure you are taking tomorrow off

Can I have that with pay?

this will give you the time necessary to call the manufacturer and get all of us the info we are looking for. 8-):grin:I'll do it, but if it was simple, I think they would have clearly stated it in the instructions.

I'll spend 30 minutes with tech support just because now I think it will be interesting.

[LarryFine]

The members of this site can discuss this all day . . . As if we could be stopped. ;)

[cadpoint]

I'll do it, but if it was simple, I think they would have clearly stated it in the instructions.

I'll spend 30 minutes with tech support just because now I think it will be interesting.

Spend three minutes get the chief engineer's, Dept or division- name and drop them an e-mail. It will take the rest of the time to compose a proper presentation of their mistake. :rolleyes:

Your'll just have to state the problem twice to who knows who then get their e-mail. Besides they might be on Holiday tommorrow, or is that one of those floating holidays !!! ?

[frizbeedog]

I'll spend 30 minutes with tech support just because now I think it will be interesting.

What did they say?

:smile:

[chris kennedy]

What did they say?

:smile:

I never called. The label on the J-box is obviously a manufacturing error.