To Design, or, not to design a spray booth

[Mule]

I have a client who is installing a used industrial/commercial spray booth that will be used for spraying flammable stain onto wood products. The exp proof flourescent lights are in place and just need to be wired up, the exhaust fan is there, and has a TEFC motor outside of the duct work. They have installed a plant air line that will be used for spray gun air pressure. This air line header has a asco solenoid installed to facilitate emergency shut off in the event of a fire. They want me to do the installation but they have no other components for the fire detection/suppression emergency circuit, and they want me to "figure it out". He did say, that he thought that the emergency circuit was to be acuated by the sprinkler system which has not been installed yet. So my first response, was that I was experienced in explosion proof wiring, but I was not particulary well versed in the fire codes as they apply to spray booths. and I told him that I would dive into to it then give him a call.

Then after a few hours, I thought, "what have I got myself into" and I decided that I did not want the liability of such design, nor did I think that my liability insurance covered me for such design work. So I emailed him explaining my stand, and concerns, but I would be happy to do the installation, once he had the balance of the components and prints that were in accordance with applicable codes.

So my question is did I over react? or am I correct that I shouldnt be involved in the design as an EC installer? My insurance is for premise wiring. I dont want to do a improper installation and have some one killed or burned. Or be sued for some crazy employee, or something...

[mdshunk]

There's no way on God's green earth I want to be mixed up with a design/build on something that can potentially blow up. These things need to be either bought as a kit or designed by an engineer if I'm going to wire it. On a paint booth, it's plan & spec for me. Not that I couldn't make it work just the way they want it to, but I want the design responsibility on someone else's shoulders.

[ivsenroute]

I can only compare to our state which is an ICC code state.

1) The entire project would need to be designed by an engineer, stamped and approved by the engineer.

2) The electrical and fire protection, detection system would also have to be designed and stamped by and engineer.

3) There are other factors that come into play like type construction the project is in. Exposures nearby, firewall or fire separation distances, ventilation requirements inside and outside the booth, etc.

4) OSHA requirements?

5) Multi-use, or occupancy building?

[Mule]

well this is in a really small town, no inspections, no design, no planning, no permits.....But that doesnt change my liability issue IMO

[480sparky]

well this is in a really small town, no inspections, no design, no planning, no permits.....But that doesnt change my liability issue IMO

That would pretty much narrow down the list of defendants in the lawsuit, that's fer sure.:cool:

[petersonra]

Its a used existing piece of equipment. I would see if the old design documents are available. Might solve the whole problem. Most of these things are semi-kit form anyway, and the original manufacturer might well have some documentation they could send you. They may even have a kit available to make it conform to whatever standards exist today that did not exist when it was built.

You might suggest to the owner that he have someone experienced in this type of installation take a look at it. Obviously that person is going to want to be paid. The guys insurance company might be able to give him an idea on who to talk to.

I don't blame you for not wanting to be involved in something like this.

[Sparky555]

Call their insurance company and ask for their fire inspector (if that's what the person is called). The town might be podunk, but the insurance co probably isn't. He/she can probably set you right on the requirements. I have a relative who's career was insurance inspector. He also worked volunteer firefighter & eventually fire chief. This kind of thing was right down his alley.

[PCN]

well this is in a really small town, no inspections, no design, no planning, no permits.....But that doesnt change my liability issue IMO

I think your gut feeling is right on. Even if it's a small town you still want to cover your rear and have the owner have an engineer design this and put his or her stamp on it.
People are to sue happy in this day and age. You know if any goes wrong who are they going to point a finger at?

[hillbilly1]

Good call, if anything happened, you would be the first in line for the insurance company to sue. Unfortunate these days, even if it was engineered, and you thought it was wrong, the lawyers would still try to prove you were negligent even though you were told by the engineer that was the way to do it. Just sent back a set of engineered blueprints that called for 4-500 kcmil's and a # 6 equipment ground for a 400 amp circuit. The building inspection plan review department caught it also, along with other numerous errors.

[mdshunk]

Good call, if anything happened, you would be the first in line for the insurance company to sue. Unfortunate these days, even if it was engineered, and you thought it was wrong, the lawyers would still try to prove you were negligent even though you were told by the engineer that was the way to do it. Just sent back a set of engineered blueprints that called for 4-500 kcmil's and a # 6 equipment ground for a 400 amp circuit. The building inspection plan review department caught it also, along with other numerous errors.
That touches on a trend I've been noticing. I know I haven't been around as long as most guys, but the quality of the engineering seems to be going downhill as time passes. Too much cut and paste of stuff that doesn't apply, and stuff that should apply is missing. Same with architects. I've got a set of plans for a retail space fit out, and I'm up to #108 in my RFI log for those plans, and I'm still just preparing the bid. At least they get back to me quickly each time, but sheesh... For instance, the measurements on a particular detail print of a display area don't even fit on the wall they're shown on for the main print. That's pretty darned important to get right.

[Security101]

I agree with your concern, and I do fire systems in paint booths. I however do not design or spec equipment required as this has to be engineered by the paint booth manufacturer, approved by the AHJ (or fire marshal probably in your case) and then given to me and the electrician so we can go from there.

The electrician does the explosion proofing and install of our heat sensors providing me with a sealed set of leads for our connection outside the hazard area.

Check with the manufacturer and see if they can spec it out and get with the AHJ.

Jim

[PCN]

That touches on a trend I've been noticing. I know I haven't been around as long as most guys, but the quality of the engineering seems to be going downhill as time passes. Too much cut and paste of stuff that doesn't apply, and stuff that should apply is missing. Same with architects. I've got a set of plans for a retail space fit out, and I'm up to #108 in my RFI log for those plans, and I'm still just preparing the bid. At least they get back to me quickly each time, but sheesh... For instance, the measurements on a particular detail print of a display area don't even fit on the wall they're shown on for the main print. That's pretty darned important to get right.

I think your right, back in the old days when plans were hand drawn alot more thought and consideration went into every line. I'm fairly new to the world of being an electrical designer but we cut and past details everyday. It's very easy to copy in the wrong one if your not paying attention. I'm guilty of that myself.

I think as far as quality goes it's just like eveything else today; we want it faster and cheaper. At the engineering company I work for we typically have 4 weeks to design a 50k sq ft retail building with 15 or 20 panels and 500 or so branch circuits, not to mention trying to answer RFI's on live projects, site visits, (getting yelled at by electricians :D).
I've worked as an electrician for many years (still do part time) and complained about many a blueprint, I feel your pain.

[Mule]

So here is the REST of the story on the spray booth,....
my client is the Maintenance Supervisor for this company. He is relatively new at this facility and is trying to change the culture and request better planning and design, which has been a real problem. So the person requesting this work on the spray booth, has not gone through the Maintenance dept. to get this done. This has him sorta agrevated, and I dont blame him. So they have requested this work directly to me, and it puts me in a tough spot, because I have such a big backlog already with the maintenance supervisor.

They also have a conveyor they want me to wire up, that was also pulled out of the junk heap somewhere. It has a 3ph motor on it, and they purchased a new Leeson VFD with no enclosure, no remote control device, or enclosure. Which also agrevated the Maintenance supervisor because they are trying to standardize on VFD's. They want me to hook into a existing 3ph disconect that is fed with "SO" straight up to a 480 bus duc :rolleyes:......I said "no way" I'll have to re-do that.......It's a mess, but I dont think the conveyor is such a liability as the spray booth issue, so I'll piece it together for them.....They havent a clue what they are going to use for set point control ie: 4-20ma, 1-5v, or what....:rolleyes:

[masterinbama]

Get their insurance people and the fire marshal involved. Most of the ones I have done get an Ansul system similar to a commercial kitchen hood installed in them.

[Mule]

Get their insurance people and the fire marshal involved. Most of the ones I have done get an Ansul system similar to a commercial kitchen hood installed in them.

In general cases, I would agree, but I assure you, calling the fire marshall or their insurance company would be a great way to loose my account.

[mdshunk]

In general cases, I would agree, but I assure you, calling the fire marshall or their insurance company would be a great way to loose my account.
You bet. Probably true for most of us. I privately wonder if all the people who post, "call so-and-so" would ever do that themselves. I have one I'm working on now where the common area fire alarm system in 5 different apartment buildings arranged as a campus (systems installed in the late 60's) are non-functional. I can't find out independantly if these buildings were required to have them in the first place, therefore they need to work, or whether they were just a nice accessory that no longer functions. I'm stuck, because I can't ask anyone without opening up a can of worms and losing a nice account.

[Fulthrotl]

Then after a few hours, I thought, "what have I got myself into" and I decided that I did not want the liability of such design, nor did I think that my liability insurance covered me for such design work. So I emailed him explaining my stand, and concerns, but I would be happy to do the installation, once he had the balance of the components and prints that were in accordance with applicable codes.


bingo. good choice, unless of course unlimited criminal and financial liability
appeals to you....:D

in california, we have so many attorneys that we have taken to using them
for parking lot bollards around transformers.... just bury them up to their
knees in wet concrete on 16" centers around the transformer, and when
someone backs up, they scream and file a lawsuit.....

[Mule]

You bet. Probably true for most of us. I privately wonder if all the people who post, "call so-and-so" would ever do that themselves. I have one I'm working on now where the common area fire alarm system in 5 different apartment buildings arranged as a campus (systems installed in the late 60's) are non-functional. I can't find out independantly if these buildings were required to have them in the first place, therefore they need to work, or whether they were just a nice accessory that no longer functions. I'm stuck, because I can't ask anyone without opening up a can of worms and losing a nice account.

Yep, I have a hard enough time, as alot of my clients know that I used to be the inspector. So I have to tell them, that "I wear a different hat now". When I see a violation, Its my duty to tell the client, and suggest a fix, but never never do I call and turn them in. OR AT LEAST WHEN THEY ARE STILL MY CLIENT :D

[growler]

I privately wonder if all the people who post, "call so-and-so" would ever do that themselves.

Yes, I would call the Fire Marshals office. I would much rather lose an account than end up in jail. They don't pay worth a darn in there, I here it's like 25 cents an hour.

Calling the Fire Marshals office here is no big deal, so long as you don't have a complaint about their services they are very nice and helpful.

As far as calling their insuance company, they are going to find out about the installed equipment anyway so what's the big deal there. As a matter of fact Mule will probably want to check with his insurance company to make sure he is covered for doing work in Hazardous locations ( for liability). They may want some sort of balloon coverage for the unexpected.

The last time I was involved with a major painting operation ( rehab at railroad) it was in 1992 and they had just killed a man due to rigged electrical. There was an explosion and a young man of 23 years with a wife and child was dead. I herd their lawyers got them out of any criminal charges but I wouldn't want to be a contractor that was resposible for something like that. I could get messy real quick.

[GUNNING]

OK .. here's what ya do. Call the AHJ. Have a quiet talk with them. They will either throw you to the dogs or red tag the booth for no engineering. Either way its not your fault. If they pass the paint booth, its their headache. If they make the owner go get engineering its a change order. IF the owner insists you finish its a change order for engineering. Any of these ideas will make you money in the end.
As for attorneys, they are expensive. Do the right thing without malice and the only thing they can prove is you did the right thing. OH yea, buy a shredder and a hold harmless agreement.

[Mule]

OK .. here's what ya do. Call the AHJ. Have a quiet talk with them. They will either throw you to the dogs or red tag the booth for no engineering. Either way its not your fault. If they pass the paint booth, its their headache. If they make the owner go get engineering its a change order. IF the owner insists you finish its a change order for engineering. Any of these ideas will make you money in the end.
As for attorneys, they are expensive. Do the right thing without malice and the only thing they can prove is you did the right thing. OH yea, buy a shredder and a hold harmless agreement.

As politely as I can say it, and with all due respect, "you guys dont get it"...this is a HICK town...no AHJ.....no red tags....no engineer...no change orders.....it will not be inspected at all.............They will figure it out, and when they produce what I need, I'll hook it up...

[Okie Sparky]

As politely as I can say it, and with all due respect, "you guys dont get it"...this is a HICK town...no AHJ.....no red tags....no engineer...no change orders.....it will not be inspected at all.............They will figure it out, and when they produce what I need, I'll hook it up...

Even in HICK town, Oklahoma there is a AHJ. He would be the state fire marshal in your area. Call down to the State Fire Marshal's office and request the the fire marshal in your district make a visit.
I did this on a job where there was no engineer, no designer, no nothing, just a redneck saying, "Here's what we want." I'll give you a little info. on this man's business. He designed and developed a propane system to go on over the road rigs to improve fuel mileage, emissions, etc., etc. This system has a valve that regulates the amount of propane to the air intake based on turbo boost pressure. When he installs a system on a truck he "fine tunes" this valve on each truck specific to each truck by putting the truck on a chassis dyno and running the truck at different speeds and loads on the dyno with the valve on a test bench and propane running to the valve he can adjust the valve until he gets peak performance out of the truck. The test bench is in a little room with the computer equipment for the dyno and there are propane lines that are active while this is all in operation. The dyno equipment is in NEMA 4 enclosures but they have vent holes in them for cooling proposes. These equipment enclosures are mounted below the test bench, at less than 2'. They have heat sinks, and relays and electronic circuit boards in them.
The journeyman that I had doing the project and I couldn't decide if this would be a classified location or not. So between the two of us we decided it would be best to involve the state fire marshal. We looked at the liability to our company if something were to happen. So we just very nicely explained to this man want the problem was what the liability to his company was (as he had already had trouble with his neighbors) as he lets his customers come into the shop area of his business (he confers with them while setting the perimeters on the valve). They also "drive" the truck while it is on the dyno. He was very open to having the state fire marshal come, his only comment was, "What will this cost me". When the Fire Marshal came out he said he would rather come before hand to know what was going on than to come post accident. He also said that if we/business man would do all that he asked then he would stand up in court for us if it ever came to that, but if we didn't........
So Mule, I think what I would do is have a talk with the maintenance supervisor and maybe his boss. Explain your position thoroughly, tell them of their liability exposure (to their employees or possibly neighbors). Tell them of your liability exposure (they may not care). But if you get the fire marshal involved now he will be on your (their) side if something catastrophic happens. Because if something catastrophic happens somebody will sue everybody involved, you, them and anybody else they can think of.
Hope this helps.

[Security101]

In general cases, I would agree, but I assure you, calling the fire marshall or their insurance company would be a great way to loose my account.

I understand your concern, however I have been "post calling" for 30+ years and have an excellent rapport with the inspectors/fire marshal(s) etc. They do not "ding my customers" or take the pre call to be a chance to ruin one of my contracts.

I don't "turn in" my customers, I work with all involved to devise a plan of attack, and by doing so there are no surprises during or after the project.

This also means though that if you are a new customer and I feel your asking me to do less that code type work - I don't need to "go to the AHJ" - it is your problem and you can complete the job without me! I will not put myself in harms way (financial/jail time) or put someone else in harms way because a customer wants to save a buck or cut some corner. I know what's right and pick my jobs accordingly.

When you plan ahead, and have a working relationship with your local authorities, you should have no problems with real customers.


Now back to your job...

As politely as I can say it, and with all due respect, "you guys dont get it"...this is a HICK town...no AHJ.....no red tags....no engineer...no change orders.....it will not be inspected at all.............They will figure it out, and when they produce what I need, I'll hook it up...

I feel for ya, may the force be with you!:wink:

Jim

[norcal]

As politely as I can say it, and with all due respect, "you guys dont get it"...this is a HICK town...no AHJ.....no red tags....no engineer...no change orders.....it will not be inspected at all.............They will figure it out, and when they produce what I need, I'll hook it up...


The solenoid is tied in w/ a limit switch on the door(s) ,open the door while the painter is shooting parts & you have one POed painter when the air supply gets cut off, at least that is the way one was I did in the last century was.:D 1.1 million BTU gas heater, w/ a 30K BTU pilot light, glad I did not have to pay the gas bill.

[mdshunk]

The solenoid is tied in w/ a limit switch on the door(s) ,open the door while the painter is shooting parts & you have one POed painter when the air supply gets cut off, at least that is the way one was I did in the last century was.:D 1.1 million BTU gas heater, w/ a 30K BTU pilot light, glad I did not have to pay the gas bill.
To put it another way, when the Air Supply gets cut off, would you agree that the painter is All Out Of Love (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HejVjzhKTY)?

[ivsenroute]

Mule, it is becoming apparent that you are waiting for someone to tell you what you want to hear. Wait long enough and you will. Sounds like your mind is already made up and you need to convince your inner self which questioned this from the beginning hence your reason for posting in the first place.

[Mule]

I fully understand what you guys are suggesting, remember I spent 5 years in such offices dealing with required stamped engineering doc's, AHJ's, fire marshalls, inspections, and the complete approval process. But what my original post asked was rather if I had over reacted or not. Im smart enough to know when I see the documents I need to complete the job, and Im not proceeding untill some one shows me some doc's that are legitamite... and I am NOT calling the officials on this issue and endangering my account.

If the client wants to call them that's their business. I have drawn the line in the sand stating what I need, now its up to them.....

[satcom]

"they have no other components for the fire detection/suppression emergency circuit, and they want me to "figure it out"."

Sure you can do the job, all you will need to do it right is hire a PE to design the project and than your ready to install it, sounds like they are looking someone fresh off the boat, whoever does this work, will assume a bit of liability, and that is ok as long as they are prepaired to pay, if they don't want to do the work right then let someone else have the problems, and exposure, you can enjoy watching the demo work, after the fire trucks leave.

[Mule]

"they have no other components for the fire detection/suppression emergency circuit, and they want me to "figure it out"."

Sure you can do the job, all you will need to do it right is hire a PE to design the project and than your ready to install it, sounds like they are looking someone fresh off the boat, whoever does this work, will assume a bit of liability, and that is ok as long as they are prepaired to pay, if they don't want to do the work right then let someone else have the problems, and exposure, you can enjoy watching the demo work, after the fire trucks leave.

Arent you jumping to conclusions? They havent even had time to respond to my request. They have other "like" installations in this facility that "might" have needed legitamate docs, or they might consult other corp resources which is California.........patiences brother

[GUNNING]

OK. I get it no AHJ. What they want is someone "less expensive" than a new paint booth to put this animal together. Luckily they found you. If I got roped into this I would be callin around for information, writting up a set of plans, getting as educated as I could about the project. The things they dont want to pay for in the real world. Make sure you get yours so that if the hammer falls you have a cushion to fall on. Sounds like a real brain teaser. The plans will ensure a long service relationship. Try to find a factory rep that can help with the "what they are doing now", and what to look for answers. Good luck.

[gadfly56]

If you really want to move forward with this project, you'll need to bring in an engineer (as others have suggested) or find a company that can offer the expertise you need and have them act as your subs. Grab a copy of NFPA 33: Standard for Spray Application Using Flammable or Combustible Materials for starters. Maybe the original spray booth manufacturer will help out. Definitely get the sprinkler company involved. They will likely also do special suppression systems. You would most likely need a dry chemical suppression system (Kidde, Pyro-Chem, Ansul, Amerex). All kinds of interlocks are involved: fire shut down, ventilation, fire alarm, fuel supply, air to spray guns, etc. This would not be my choice for a "learn by doing" project. Good luck, whatever you decide.

[Mule]

If you really want to move forward with this project, you'll need to bring in an engineer (as others have suggested) or find a company that can offer the expertise you need and have them act as your subs. Grab a copy of NFPA 33: Standard for Spray Application Using Flammable or Combustible Materials for starters. Maybe the original spray booth manufacturer will help out. Definitely get the sprinkler company involved. They will likely also do special suppression systems. You would most likely need a dry chemical suppression system (Kidde, Pyro-Chem, Ansul, Amerex). All kinds of interlocks are involved: fire shut down, ventilation, fire alarm, fuel supply, air to spray guns, etc. This would not be my choice for a "learn by doing" project. Good luck, whatever you decide.

With all due respect, everyone wants me to be the GC, and I dont care to be in that capacity. When I first posted this thread, I cared, but now...:rolleyes: When the missing components materialize, I will be most happy to do the electrical installation according to code, but until then, I could care less, because I'm not going to take the liability, nor argue with a low budget management team trying to sell a huge engineering cost that they are not going to pay for. This bunch doesnt even want to take proper channels with'in their own organization, so why should I think that they will except the cost of engineering....I'm really busy, and dont have to time to screw with it, nor do I want to.

Stepping back and watching this management team, is the ultimate multi-tasking get-r-done mentallity. They are a bunch or 25 year old managers that most probably dont make 35k annually. Which is, on a positive note, it's amazing what some folks can get done with a hard will. But in this case, for this small mom and pop electrical business, I dont want the headache or liability...now Im repeating myself...:)

[220/221]

Too much cut and paste of stuff that doesn't apply, and stuff that should apply is missing.


I HATE that!! http://www.scrapconcepts.com/mb/images/smiles/banghead.gif

I had a cut/paste job last month that showed a EGC in the overhead riser with the service conductors. Does anyone, anywhere do that?

They are alwys doing that "no emt, no set screw connector, no MC" BS too.

The latest cut and pasted light pole base I saw showed 20" of #4 copper coiled up at the bottom of the hole.:confused:

[Mule]

Some "typical" dwgs are ok, because of the simularities, but sometimes Im like you, I want to see the real deal..

[Greg Swartz]

I can only compare to our state which is an ICC code state.

1) The entire project would need to be designed by an engineer, stamped and approved by the engineer.

2) The electrical and fire protection, detection system would also have to be designed and stamped by and engineer.

3) There are other factors that come into play like type construction the project is in. Exposures nearby, firewall or fire separation distances, ventilation requirements inside and outside the booth, etc.

4) OSHA requirements?

5) Multi-use, or occupancy building?

I'm pretty confident Colorado would follow these same guidelines...

Anytime you pull a permit for non-residential, there better be plans involved... and since there are plans... that means an engineer is going to get paid to change / review / stamp...

But there's always that little line on the prints somewhere: Subject to field verification

[petersonra]

I don't think you should go behind your client's back, but you should just tell them your concerns and who they might contact to get it resolved. make it clear you don't feel you are qualified to make the determinations as to just what is appropriate.

They may just tell you to call whoever you need to.

[Mule]

I don't think you should go behind your client's back, but you should just tell them your concerns and who they might contact to get it resolved. make it clear you don't feel you are qualified to make the determinations as to just what is appropriate.

They may just tell you to call whoever you need to.

I know your just trying to help, But ...........

1) Im NOT going behind anyones back, and I dont understand how you came up with that.

2) I have told them my concerns

3) And my qualifications dont have anything to do it, IM NOT AN ENGINEER and I wont accept the liability....Its up to them get that resolved. Not mine Im not a GC...as earlier stated , they have engineering resources in other corporate locations, they just need to utilize it.

4) I dont want them to tell me to call someone as Ive already stated

Thanks but Ive just took another job today, which officially ties this mom and pop shop up for the next 3 months and we just dont have time to be fiddle'n with side line obstacles. We are now refering all calls to other local EC's.

[Mule]

Well they were drug across the carpet for not going through maintenance and engineering. So after the smoke cleared, they hired the previous controls company that installed other paint hoods in this facility, and they are doing the installation. $10,000 smackers.....YAHOO !!

[GUNNING]

ATA BOY! Karma will keep ya in the clear every time!