Res. Service...headache

[sgeers]

Got a call to come out and look at this residential service upgrade. Usually every one i have done thus far has been fairly cut and dry, but this has me asking myself alot of questions.

The panel is currently an old 60 amp murray, and is located directly inside the home behind the meter, which happens to be in a small closet. In this closet is the water meter (4 feet from panel) and a large drain pipe (directly under the panel). The HO wants to eventually build a wall in this closet and make part of it a shower for the bathroom which is located about 6' away from the panel. This would make the shower about 3-4 feet from the panel.

He would like a 200 amp service installed either next to the old service, or all the way behind the house in the garage. This would require running the service wire through the basement beams and into the garage, which is about a 60-70 foot run total.

I guess what I'm asking is which seems like a better plan of attack. Im supposed to start this project a week from today. Ideally, I would prefer to keep the panel located close to where it sits now to avoid the extra expense of extending wires and running the service wire through the home. I'm having a little trouble finding things in the codebook pertaining to such a situation

[mdshunk]

You just have to put the panel someplace else. Simple as that. Nothing in the code book is going to help you any more. It's all electrical contracting beyond that. Actually being in the home is really the only good way to pick a better spot. This might be one time where swinging the branch circuits through the wall and doing an outdoor panel might make good sense. Hard to say without seeing the house.

[bjp_ne_elec]

You've already "won" the job? How did you bid it without a clear plan, if you did already provide a price.

And as far as running the service "through the basement beams" - usually the POCO wants the panel "as close as possible" (and I know for NIMO - it used to be within 6' of penetration in to the residence) to where it enters the residence.

[Dennis Alwon]

I would install a wp panel outdoors next to the meter that is a 200 amp wp feed thru lug panel. This panel usually has about 8 - 12 cir. Hopefully you can get the old panel circuits installed in there and then feed a feeder across the basement to the other panel.

[sgeers]

You've already "won" the job? How did you bid it without a clear plan, if you did already provide a price.

And as far as running the service "through the basement beams" - usually the POCO wants the panel "as close as possible" (and I know for NIMO - it used to be within 6' of penetration in to the residence) to where it enters the residence.

never said i won anything....never gave a price..this is word of mouth reference. the HO wants it done by me and nobody else.

[PCN]

Some HO's don't want a panel mounted on the exterior of their house,
If it were me I'd install either a meter w/ main or a disco and put the new panel in the garage. Think of future access to the panel also, the garage might be easier than an exterior location. Sure it's gonna be more money but maybe a better choice in the end.

[LarryFine]

This might be one time where swinging the branch circuits through the wall and doing an outdoor panel might make good sense.I agree.

[sgeers]

I think i figured out a solution. If i use a Square D CQRA200 i should be able to run the SER through the basement and into the garage. then i will just extend the branch circuitry to the new panel. this should clear up any issues with this small closet room and the water pipes, shower, etc, and clear my working space issue with the drain pipe. ill then have free reign over the garage to to put the new panel without any of these issues.

correct me if im wrong please

[LarryFine]

correct me if im wrong pleaseAbout which part? :grin: You really could put the panel on either side of any interior wall that is not in an otherwise-restrictred area.

The only issue with a remote, SER-fed panel is that a 200a disco and a 3R enclosure cost about as much as a 200a 3R MB panel. Plus, you'll only need a couple of feet of wire for each re-fed circuit instead of 60 to 70 feet of them, and SER cable.

Of course, the customer makes the decision on whether the in-the-garage location is worth the extra it will cost. To me, that's a long way compared to nippling to the exterior at-the-meter relocation, but that's me.

Side question: do they really need a 200a service in a house that's survived on a 60 so far? Even a new central A/C install would live with a 100a upgrade. Now, an electric furnace or tankless water heater might be another story.

Side remark: unless things have changed lately, I remember 150a 3R MB panels being more available than 200a ones, which is a good compromise. Of course, there's no difference in labor between 150a and 200a installs, and little cost difference.

[ptonsparky]

Most of our work is like this project, word of mouth with no questions on price, just get it done. Still if they have an idea just how much that 200 amp SE in a garage 60 feet away is going to cost vs a 100 amp 3R they may change their minds.

[sgeers]

another issue which i should have mentioned is the entire side of the house with the service drop is pretty full on the inside making it more difficult. the closet is in the far corner closer to the street and in order to the back of the house is the bathroom and laundry room leaving me hardly any room. the HO wants the upgrade because they plan on adding an addition, refinishing the basement, adding central air and probably rewiring a good portion of the home in the process. just from what i did see on the walk through seems as though the previous owner was a do it yourselfer with zero idea on the NEC or the use of junction boxes where splices are made.

so it breaks down like this- i am going to come up with 3 plans of attack...1-moving the panel to the garage; 2- installing the 3R panel; and 3- convincing them to reframe a portion of the basement during the renovation later that could satisfy the NEC without costing a lot of money

either way i think im also going to suggest they get a second opinion if they dont like my prices. i have a feeling that this project only has a budget of around 1500 from what the HO has told me so far, and that would really only cover the material if option 1 is used.

[bjp_ne_elec]

I think i figured out a solution. If i use a Square D CQRA200 i should be able to run the SER through the basement and into the garage. then i will just extend the branch circuitry to the new panel. this should clear up any issues with this small closet room and the water pipes, shower, etc, and clear my working space issue with the drain pipe. ill then have free reign over the garage to to put the new panel without any of these issues.

correct me if im wrong please

Sgeers - I think that is a great solution - much cleaner, getting a panel out of what sounds like a crowded spot. The only negative, as Larry has already mentioned is the added cost - I don't know what that delta is. But it does sound like a discussion with the HO is necessary.

It's nice to have customer who just want to "get ur done". It's certainly just the opposite of asking "what happens if you don't do this" or "wow - how much you making an hour".

[sgeers]

Sgeers - I think that is a great solution - much cleaner, getting a panel out of what sounds like a crowded spot. The only negative, as Larry has already mentioned is the added cost - I don't know what that delta is. But it does sound like a discussion with the HO is necessary.

It's nice to have customer who just want to "get ur done". It's certainly just the opposite of asking "what happens if you don't do this" or "wow - how much you making an hour".

alot of my work is going that way. it seems for all the electricians in this state, only a handful only actually show up and do a nice job. im very detail oriented and try not to leave unless i would settle for the job installed in my own home.

[Sparky555]

so it breaks down like this- i am going to come up with 3 plans of attack...1-moving the panel to the garage; 2- installing the 3R panel; and 3- convincing them to reframe a portion of the basement during the renovation later that could satisfy the NEC without costing a lot of money

either way i think im also going to suggest they get a second opinion if they dont like my prices. i have a feeling that this project only has a budget of around 1500 from what the HO has told me so far, and that would really only cover the material if option 1 is used.

You have to love a triple bid on a small job. It's not really your job until you get the autograph on the contract. Don't let their budget influence your bid. Good Luck!

[Fulthrotl]

The panel is currently an old 60 amp murray, and is located directly inside the home behind the meter, which happens to be in a small closet. In this closet is the water meter (4 feet from panel) and a large drain pipe (directly under the panel).

if this is requiring inspection, you cannot have a drain pipe under the
panel, it is prohibited by NEC... not sure of exact section as i am too
lazy to research it....:roll: but my code refresher class last week touched
on it, and there's one of mike's pretty pictures in his book.....

randy

[sgeers]

if this is requiring inspection, you cannot have a drain pipe under the
panel, it is prohibited by NEC... not sure of exact section as i am too
lazy to research it....:roll: but my code refresher class last week touched
on it, and there's one of mike's pretty pictures in his book.....

randy

it would be in violation of article 110 working spaces for starters anyway

but anyway, i have a number in mind now so time to call the HO

[sgeers]

called the HO and discussed the options i previously mentioned. of course was not happy with my price and i had to make sure i was clear on the obvious code violations i had seen during the walkthrough and what its really going to take to bring it up to code. he thanked me very kindly and is going to call me tuesday so i will see if im actually going to do the job or not then.

[bjp_ne_elec]

never said i won anything....never gave a price..this is word of mouth reference. the HO wants it done by me and nobody else.

Looking like maybe they might want it done by someone else? Who says "price doesn't matter"? There are a few like that, but quite a few are always "negotiating".

[jjhoward]

If you do get the job (I hope you do!) and you chose to move the panel...
Do you have a location for 1 or more large jboxes that you may need to extend the existing branch circuits??
You know attic space or a ceiling that can have an access panel installed?

[sgeers]

If you do get the job (I hope you do!) and you chose to move the panel...
Do you have a location for 1 or more large jboxes that you may need to extend the existing branch circuits??
You know attic space or a ceiling that can have an access panel installed?

when the basement is finished it will be a drop ceiling so that issue is non existant at this point. im still waiting to get word on the job

[Sparky555]

im still waiting to get word on the job
Don't hold your breath. Triple bid=No work.

[sgeers]

thats ok plenty of other jobs to do