Davis Bacon wages / ratios

[Greg Swartz]

We just got in on a Davis Bacon job at one of the local bases. This is my first time as a business owner, in such an industry.

Right now, the DB wage for a J-man is $40.55 (I think...)
My question is: How do I calculate residential wages from that?
Am I required to have a certain wage for each level?

Everyone I am asking has no clue.

Also, In Colorado, the J-man / Apprentice ration is 1:3 unless you are on a federal / state job. Then it is 1:1.

Would this apply to a job on the base?

We do not need a permit, and the Army Corps of Engineers is the inspector.

[sgeers]

Res. rate is about 20 dollars less an hour here in NJ. The prevailing wage is usually the going union JW rate so that is what everyone has to get paid unless they are an indentured apprentice i believe.

[iwire]

The prevailing wage is usually the going union JW rate so that is what everyone has to get paid unless they are an indentured apprentice i believe.

That is how it is for us as well, most times the apprentice will get the JW rate.

[sgeers]

right iwire; im pretty sure even the data/comm guys got JW rate on the last prevailing wage job i was on, but the apprentices did not perhaps because of something with the JATC or the union, i never got a straight answer.

the ratio is 3:1

[sgeers]

http://www.cbctc.com/cbctc/organizing/prevailing-wage.htm

[iwire]

but the apprentices did not perhaps because of something with the JATC or the union, i never got a straight answer.

If I recall it has to do with them being in a State approved training class or not, be it union or private but I am not really sure.

[sgeers]

If I recall it has to do with them being in a State approved training class or not, be it union or private but I am not really sure.


right you are. i just looked it up. it has to be state approved

[mdshunk]

Right now, the DB wage for a J-man is $40.55 (I think...)
My question is: How do I calculate residential wages from that?
Am I required to have a certain wage for each level?
You don't really calculate anything as much as you simply look at the chart for a certain trade class. An electrician is an electrician.

My biggest gripe with the DBA wages is the fact that they're 15-20% higher than what the BLS shows as the "real" prevailing wage. Couple that with the substantial changes made to the WD10 form in the mid 90's, contractors can misreport the hours worked pretty easily and get away with it. They do this by telling the men a false DBA wage, then under reporting on the WD10 as a total group of workers (easier to hide misreporting in a big group).

[emahler]

Greg, best bet is to get an official determination from your Dept of Labor...a quick search puts your county at the following:

Building Electrician - $27.80/hr wage + benefits of 3%+$12.55 ....total package $41.18

Residential (single family and apartments up to 4 stories)
if contract is over $150k......$26.59/hr wage + $10.90/benes....total package $37.85
under $150k....$22.44/hr + $10.77/benes..... total package $33.21

i couldn't find anything about your ratios nor what projects actually qualified...i didn't even see anything about apprentice wages...

however, you will probably need to provide certified payroll and make sure that any apprentices (if paid apprentice wages) are in a state registered apprenticeship program. Additionally, make sure that if you pay benefits (medical, 401k, etc) that they are approved..if they are, you can credit them towards the benefits portion. If they aren't, you have to pay the benefits portion in the check as well as the benefits you offer.

one last neat thing, if your guys work OT, just multiply the wage, not the benefits....

[growler]

one last neat thing, if your guys work OT, just multiply the wage, not the benefits....


There is one other area where you can save a dollar or two. You are allowed to use laborers for unskilled work ( no tools ). So if you need a guy to sweep up and stock materials or act as a general gofer then this person can be paid laborer rates. Just make sure this person/persons does no actual electrical work or you would end up paying them as electricians.

[charlie]

. . . State approved training class . . .
Are you sure it is not a federally approved training class? I taught for eight years and it was a BAT (Bureau of Apprenticeship Training) approved course. The state also had requirements that had to be met but the BAT people actually approved the curriculum. :smile:

[iwire]

Are you sure it is not a federally approved training class?

No, I am not sure at all. :smile:

[ElectronDance]

Db is relatively simple in usage. For starters, there is no calculation to be done, as they have broken out residential wiremen into a seperate catagory. Check book on it and go with that. You also have exactly two classes of employee to deal with. Jw's are one rate, apprentices are another (50% I believe.) To classify as an apprentice, the employee must be in a recognized apprenticeship program, otherwise you have to treat them as a JW wage wise. The DB system does not recognize helpers, IJ's, CW's or CE's. there is also no designation for telcom/systems techs. You can pay loborer rates in some cases. But if an employee picks up anything more complicated than a broom, paying laborer rates will get you in trouble.

[celtic]

Db is relatively simple in usage.

Really?

I just read the EXACT opposite:

Understanding the rules and guidelines to the many prevailing wage laws in existence today—the federal Davis-Bacon Act, "Little Davis-Bacon" state laws and other related regulations—is far from easy.


Overcoming Prevailing Wage Adversity (http://www.constructionexec.com/Issues/October_2008/Special_Section6.aspx)

[ElectronDance]

Really?

I just read the EXACT opposite:


Overcoming Prevailing Wage Adversity (http://www.constructionexec.com/Issues/October_2008/Special_Section6.aspx)

Yes really. Now if you work in multiple jurisdictions it gets more complicated. But, the federal DB is what it is, and in a fixed jurisdiction the rates easy enough to find and follow. Further, if you don't know your own states laws, up to and including any state prevailing rules, then you are not doing your due diligance. Admittadly, there are some complications for the contractor facing this for the first time, as is true when dealing with any new set of regulations. Bt once you've done it a time or two, it becomes second nature.

Finding the information is easy enough, applying the information is easy enough, and while the certified payroll reporting is a nuisance, it is also relatively easy.

[charlie]

. . . I couldn't help but notice that the article you referenced is little more than a "merit shop" whine fest. Me thinks the source is a tad bit biased in opinion.
This thread has done well to keep the union versus merit controversy to a minimum. We are now approaching the ragged edge or controversy and it is time to back away a little. :smile:

[pvitt]

Hey Greg, I work for a government contractor here in the Springs and there are different scales depending on the contract date. I have not had a raise in four years because of when and how the contract was drawn. There are apprentices in the company who make more than me.

[pvitt]

P.S. Love the logo!

[K2X]

My post was inflamatory?? Did you read it??

[mdshunk]

My post was inflamatory?? Did you read it??
I was wondering the same thing. I posted a link to a scholarly study from a college in Boston.

[celtic]

I posted a link to a scholarly study from a college in Boston.

I would like to see that study...can you PM me a link?

[mdshunk]

I would like to see that study...can you PM me a link?
Better than that. I'll post it again. It does not violate the forum rules.

http://www.beaconhill.org/BHIStudies/PrevWage08/DavisBaconPrevWage080207Final.pdf

[Greg Swartz]

Further, if you don't know your own states laws, up to and including any state prevailing rules, then you are not doing your due diligance...

I'm sorry, due dilligence?
I'm a Licensed Journeyman Electrician, a Licensed Master Electrician, a Licensed Electrical Contractor, and an Electrical Engineer, Cum Laude...

Top that... and I'm sure some can... but telling me that I am not doing my due dilligence is quite aggravating.

It is the reason I came to this forum. I have asked several people in key positions for help... no one was able to do so.

[Greg Swartz]

Better than that. I'll post it again. It does not violate the forum rules.

http://www.beaconhill.org/BHIStudies/PrevWage08/DavisBaconPrevWage080207Final.pdf

I've started reading the study. It is quite informative. Thanks

[celtic]

I'm sorry, due dilligence?
I'm a Licensed Journeyman Electrician, a Licensed Master Electrician, a Licensed Electrical Contractor, and an Electrical Engineer, Cum Laude...


Due Diligence has nothing to do with any of that...

[Greg Swartz]

Db is relatively simple in usage. For starters, there is no calculation to be done, as they have broken out residential wiremen into a seperate catagory. Check book on it and go with that. You also have exactly two classes of employee to deal with. Jw's are one rate, apprentices are another (50% I believe.) To classify as an apprentice, the employee must be in a recognized apprenticeship program, otherwise you have to treat them as a JW wage wise. The DB system does not recognize helpers, IJ's, CW's or CE's. there is also no designation for telcom/systems techs. You can pay loborer rates in some cases. But if an employee picks up anything more complicated than a broom, paying laborer rates will get you in trouble.

Arizona does not have a licensed journeyman electrician, so does that mean it is different in handling the situation?

In Colorado, I have licensed JW, and apprentices, from 1st to 4th year.
Do all apprentices fall under the 50% rule, or do they adjust per year.

For example:
I plan to pay my 1st year at 50%, my 2nd year at 65%, my 3rd year at 75%, and my 4th year at 85%.
While, I will pay JW for JW, my Lead-journeyman will be at 105%, and my Foreman at 110%. (And try to keep his tools off as much as possible!)

Does that sound right?

[Greg Swartz]

Due Diligence has nothing to do with any of that...
Obviously not. I must be missing the point.
I started the business. I must be doing some due diligence.
I'm providing jobs for this economy... is that the diligence I am missing?
I asked for help and am told I am not doing my due diligence...

So, what am I missing?

(due diligence... obviously)

[Greg Swartz]

however, you will probably need to provide certified payroll and make sure that any apprentices (if paid apprentice wages) are in a state registered apprenticeship program. Additionally, make sure that if you pay benefits (medical, 401k, etc) that they are approved..if they are, you can credit them towards the benefits portion. If they aren't, you have to pay the benefits portion in the check as well as the benefits you offer.

one last neat thing, if your guys work OT, just multiply the wage, not the benefits....

Certified payroll: No problem there.
Apprentices registered with the state: Had a few difficulties, but got the other contractors to finally release the apprentice. Here, only 1 company can have the apprentice registered at any given time.
Benefits: cash. The boys want cash... no problem there. Although the Prevaling wage adversity article was interesting on that issue.
Overtime: Good point. I need to start doing that. So, even if the benefits are paid in cash, I still do not count that as 1 1/2 time?

Thanks,
Greg

[e57]

Better than that. I'll post it again. It does not violate the forum rules.

http://www.beaconhill.org/BHIStudies/PrevWage08/DavisBaconPrevWage080207Final.pdf
What I had to say was the first few pages that summerized.... And that the same sentance that Charlie later erased - but still quoted from electrondance is inflamitory - so I'm not quite sure what part of my post was offensive - the part about fat and bacon - or what?

[charlie]

Sorry to be a bit heavy handed (this is as close as you will get to an apology) but I found that with the strong feelings concerning merit shops versus union shops, it was necessary to perhaps cut a little of the meat to keep the thread on the straight and narrow. Because of my background, I have a '----------' leaning but I leave it at the door and try my best to treat both sides the same.

I will cut or delete as is necessary or even lock for the thread to remain non-volatile. :)

[splinetto]

We just got in on a Davis Bacon job at one of the local bases. This is my first time as a business owner, in such an industry.

Right now, the DB wage for a J-man is $40.55 (I think...)
My question is: How do I calculate residential wages from that?
Am I required to have a certain wage for each level?

Everyone I am asking has no clue.

Also, In Colorado, the J-man / Apprentice ration is 1:3 unless you are on a federal / state job. Then it is 1:1.

Would this apply to a job on the base?

We do not need a permit, and the Army Corps of Engineers is the inspector.
If your employees are apart of a union I would look at the collective bargaing agreement, in ours it states that the prevailing wage to be paid will be the prev rate used to bid the job.....So if they bid the job and there is a pay increase you can pay at the bidded rate...However I dont know if that caqn apply to a non union shop....

[mkgrady]

On any federal construction project their is a "Wage Decision". It determines what the minimum wages are on the contract until it is complete. It should be in the job specifications or added as an ammendment (prior to the bid date).

If the contracting officer did a good job the WD will list all the trades and the type of construction (building, Heavy, Highway).

The apprentice ratios should be listed in the WD. It usually follows the custom from the local union as do the wages. The apprentices need to be in a state registered program.

Every worker must be paid the minimum for the trade class they work. Even if their job changes throughout the day. If you let a laborer help you pull cable he is entitled to pay as an electrician or lineman if it is outside work

[Greg Swartz]

So, I've got a licensed residential wireman who wants to go commercial.
He's smart, and a quick learner. He is currently going full time to college to become an electrical engineer.

Since he is not commercial, he now becomes a 3rd year apprentice, no matter how many hours acquired (because J-man needs 8k hours, a minimum 4k of which are commercial).

So, do you think that he would need to drop out of college to attend apprenticeship schooling?

Or, if he does not, then he needs to be paid as a Journeyman?

Thanks,
Greg

[mkgrady]

So, I've got a licensed residential wireman who wants to go commercial.
He's smart, and a quick learner. He is currently going full time to college to become an electrical engineer.

Since he is not commercial, he now becomes a 3rd year apprentice, no matter how many hours acquired (because J-man needs 8k hours, a minimum 4k of which are commercial).

So, do you think that he would need to drop out of college to attend apprenticeship schooling?

Or, if he does not, then he needs to be paid as a Journeyman?

Thanks,
Greg

He could go to college days and go to apprentice training after normal working hours. But then how would he be able to work on the construction site?

The only exception to paying the j-man rate is if he is in a state registered apprentice program. I never heard of a j-man becoming an apprentice but each state program is different.