How to price supervision task?

[jjhoward]

I will be working with an out of state contractor that is replacing ~40 AC/heater units in a local hotel.
Their crew does this in PA, DE, MD but here in NJ they need a licensed EC.
The plan is I pull the permit and check their work as they proceed.
It may take them about 5 weeks to get all 40 units swapped out.
The town will do their inspection when all have been installed.

Any comments on how to charge this?
I can guess how many trips to the site…
But, if these guys need to rework anything, then there will be more visits.
Obviously, I will be going to the municipal building for the permit.
But going to the site, should I charge for a day, half day.
Your thoughts please….


THank you

[jrannis]

Here in Florida, if you pull the permit you have to do the work. It would not be proper the have the type of arrangement you are looking into.

If its OK in NJ, charge $50 per unit to inspect them

[masterinbama]

I did the same thing here a few years back. Didn't understand why the electrical had to be pulled because the units just plugged in. I think I charged $40 per unit and my standard service call fee for the final inspect.

[petersonra]

Here in Florida, if you pull the permit you have to do the work. It would not be proper the have the type of arrangement you are looking into.

If its OK in NJ, charge $50 per unit to inspect them

how is this any different than an EC bringing in some guys from the hall for a few weeks to do a large job?

[growler]

how is this any different than an EC bringing in some guys from the hall for a few weeks to do a large job?


They are company employees even if temporary.

[growler]

Didn't understand why the electrical had to be pulled because the units just plugged in.

They probably would like for the EC to inspect the condition of the wiring and receptacle. Make sure the breaker is the correct size and marked.

Or maybe they just want to have someone to hold responsible when the place burns down.

I have never seen a motel that was safe after those maintenance guys work on the wiring for awhile. Half the grounds will be missing.

I would check and mark everything and do the work myself.

[charlietuna]

I would have one of my foreman work with them first and foremost ! Then I would figure the permit fee, cost of applying and time for inspections. Figure that total cost and add your normal percentage to the job and a letter from the out of town contractor stating he would be responsible to you for any call backs.

[480sparky]

Here in Florida, if you pull the permit you have to do the work. It would not be proper the have the type of arrangement you are looking into....

In addition to the 'hall' question, how does that differ when I pull a permit to do a job, then subcontract part of the job to someone else? Those people are the employees of whatever company I subcontract to, not mine.

[macmikeman]

I would not "charge by the hour" for supervision for something like this if I ever was to rent out. I would rather consider it something like the bird of good fortune has flown in the window, and needs to be exploited for all you can get out of it. They need you cause they ain't qualified to work in your town, bottom line. Charge Large

[masterinbama]

I will have to clarify that the one I did was not for some fly by night contractor. It was for a large mechanical contractor I do a lot of work for.

[SmithBuilt]

The difference here in NC is the contract, supervision and money must all be by the EC who gets the permit. I think subs are ok to use as long as they work for the EC who is on the contract.

[satcom]

The difference here in NC is the contract, supervision and money must all be by the EC who gets the permit. I think subs are ok to use as long as they work for the EC who is on the contract.

The same here in Jersey, but some slick contractors still try to get around the laws.

Myself I would not want to extend my exposure, or risk losing my business permit.

[jjhoward]

Hello Satcom;
What risk to your permit for supervising the work of others?
As I understand it that is not illegal in NJ.
If the work is poor, that is my job to see the problem and have it corrected on their dime.
I don't call for the final inspection until I am happy.

[wawireguy]

So... Are the guys doing the work licensed electricians in your state? If not you could get in hot water for pulling the permit then having guys who aren't licensed do the work. What is the recourse if you don't like their work? Will they fix it? Honestly I think this deal is not in your best interest. I'd try to get a contract from this company to do the work yourself.

[jjhoward]

In NJ I can have people working under my supervision who are not licensed. There is nothing illegal about that.

Who fixes it if I don’t like it….I am assuming they will with their labor.

However, if there are problems, then suddenly my time on the site increases. How do I charge or how do I contract for that possibility?

[satcom]

Hello Satcom;
What risk to your permit for supervising the work of others?
As I understand it that is not illegal in NJ.
If the work is poor, that is my job to see the problem and have it corrected on their dime.
I don't call for the final inspection until I am happy.

Are these guys your employees, and on your payroll? if yes then it's not illegal, but renting your license is illegal.

[jjhoward]

I don't think I am renting my license.
I am being hired because I have a license.
My function is to supervise the work of others.
I am one of the employees on the site.
How is that illegal?
Is it only legal if I write those I supervise a paycheck??

[satcom]

I don't think I am renting my license.
I am being hired because I have a license.
My function is to supervise the work of others.
I am one of the employees on the site.
How is that illegal?
Is it only legal if I write those I supervise a paycheck??

It is simple they need to be your employees, and the company looking to get someone on the cheap will have to contract with you to do the job, that they will not do because they do not intend to in rich anyone, but themself, Now I am most likely wrong and it's just that I no nothing about electrical work, or contracting, I just come on here to pass time.

[jjhoward]

I guess you are being sarcastic....

Seriously, do you know if what I am describing is illegal in NJ?

[hardworkingstiff]

The "proper" way to do this is for the EC (YOU!) has a contract with the GC (properly licensed in your State) or owner. You hire (a contract!) the subs and supervise them.

I'd do it like the GC's, 15% of the job.

[satcom]

I guess you are being sarcastic....

Seriously, do you know if what I am describing is illegal in NJ?

One of the reasons we have the CEU's requirements, is too many guys don't understand the laws, just call the board office in the morning and let them know what you want to do, if they say it's ok, than post here tommorow, so i can be th first to loan out my license.

[jjhoward]

Satcom,
I am looking through the NJ Statutes & Regulations for us NJECs
In the section titled "Supervision of electrical work", I don't see anything that says there is a problem with what I am doing.

If you know the proper interpretation of the law, why not explain it.

Or just say that in you opinion you don’t think one should do this….

[ctmike]

i dont know NJ but in CT you would need to be on the job or a journeyman in your employ . apprentices there only under youror your journeymans direct suppervison. The licence is yours you worked hard for it protect it and your self IMO

[hardworkingstiff]

Satcom,
I am looking through the NJ Statutes & Regulations for us NJECs
In the section titled "Supervision of electrical work", I don't see anything that says there is a problem with what I am doing.

If you know the proper interpretation of the law, why not explain it.

Or just say that in you opinion you don’t think one should do this….

I don't know NJ law, but people in NC lose their licenses for enabling 'others' to work as ECs when they are not ECs. In NC, if your not licensed in NC, then you are not an EC.

[Cavie]

In addition to the 'hall' question, how does that differ when I pull a permit to do a job, then subcontract part of the job to someone else? Those people are the employees of whatever company I subcontract to, not mine.

Subcontract is the key word. If someone gets hurt, you had best have a sign subcontract in place with all the legal stuff such as insurance and workmans comp and signitures of all partys involved.

[jjhoward]

I will contact the DOCA of NJ tomorrow and let you know.

[emahler]

I will contact the DOCA of NJ tomorrow and let you know.

might not want to give them your information...what you are describing, i believe, is illegal in NJ...it sounds like you are renting your license...

[emahler]

In NJ I can have people working under my supervision who are not licensed. There is nothing illegal about that.

Who fixes it if I don’t like it….I am assuming they will with their labor.

However, if there are problems, then suddenly my time on the site increases. How do I charge or how do I contract for that possibility?

In NJ they have be your employees to be legal...you can't sub out to an unlicensed contractor...you can hire his men for this project and put them on your payroll...

but what you are describing is not legal in the great state of New Jersey...

[emahler]

I don't think I am renting my license.
I am being hired because I have a license.
My function is to supervise the work of others.
I am one of the employees on the site.
How is that illegal?
Is it only legal if I write those I supervise a paycheck??

NJ is a 1 license, 1 company state...if you are hired by this company to cover them with your license, you have to cease covering your company for the duration of this project...

[celtic]

I will contact the DOCA of NJ tomorrow and let you know.

I predict they will deem "the plan" as a violation.

The "employees" will need to be paid by check from JJHOWARD ELECTRICAL CONTRACTORS EXTRAORDINAIRE.

45:5A-15. Transferability of license or business permit
No license or business permit issued under this act shall be assigned or transferable.

13:31-3.1 Worker’s compensation
(a) Business permit holders shall obtain the worker’s compensation insurance required by the laws of this State
covering employees employed by the business permit holder or his subcontractor. Business permit holders
shall maintain on file a certificate of insurance evidencing such coverage.
(b) Business permit holders shall ensure that all temporary employees working under the supervision of the permit
holders have obtained the required worker’s compensation coverage.
Go El Grande on the pricing;

13:31-3.4 Supervision of electrical work
(a) The licensee whose license qualifies the holder of a business permit to engage in the business of electrical
contracting in the State of New Jersey shall assume full responsibility for the inspection and supervision of all
electrical work to be performed by the permittee in compliance with recognized safety standards.
(b) The qualifying licensee shall be deemed not to have assumed such required responsibility where he engages in
the following acts and practices:
1. Failure to personally inspect and supervise the work of employees where necessary and appropriate.
2. Failure to ensure that electrical workers are afforded the degree of personal on-site supervision commensurate
with their level of competence and the complexity of the work to be performed.
3. Failure to be personally available on a reasonable basis where circumstances require personal availability.
4. Regular and continuous absence from the principal office of the permit holder where the permit holder
maintains a New Jersey office; or the regular and continuous absence from the work sites of electrical work
performed in New Jersey where the permit holder does not maintain a New Jersey office.
http://www.nj.gov/lps/ca/electric/eleclaws.pdf

[emahler]

i knew celtic would bring the evidence to back up my thoughts....thanks celtic! :D

[celtic]

i knew celtic would bring the evidence to back up my thoughts....thanks celtic! :D


We're going on a picnic, I'm bringing the law book.

Next...

:grin:

[satcom]

I just hope he understands, everyone replying to this post is trying to help him from getting into problems.

[Dr.Sparks]

I get calls @ least once a week for a "third party permit" and I give them my hourly rate X 2 men for the entire duration of the job and make it clear that only my guys touch anything electrical. Not 1 job has come out of that offer.go figure:roll:

[hardworkingstiff]

I get calls @ least once a week for a "third party permit" and I give them my hourly rate X 2 men for the entire duration of the job and make it clear that only my guys touch anything electrical. Not 1 job has come out of that offer.go figure:roll:

I bet we don't see you in court or losing your license.

[emahler]

We're going on a picnic, I'm bringing the law book.

Next...

:grin:

tomorrow? i'm free from 11-1pm

[celtic]

tomorrow? i'm free from 11-1pm

That depends....what are you bringing ?
:grin:

[emahler]

That depends....what are you bringing ?
:grin:

my never ending thirst for knowledge.......


















oh, ok, i'll bring a pie if I absolutely have too....:D

[celtic]

Before we start the picnic fund....do we need to bail JJ out of jail?
:D

[jjhoward]

Hello All;
Thank you for all the words of wisdom.
Alright..I just didn't know. Never been asked to do this type of gig before.

Mz. Borek @ the NJ DCA stood up for you guys!

Yes, the only way any work in NJ gets done is by the licensed contractor and/or his employees.

Gee, sounds familiar as I look back through this thread.

Thanks.

The contractor who has approached me needs to get these 40 compressors and air handlers swapped out. I will break the news to him on Monday and see if I can get the job done for him.

[hardworkingstiff]

Hello All;
Thank you for all the words of wisdom.
Alright..I just didn't know. Never been asked to do this type of gig before.

Mz. Borek @ the NJ DCA stood up for you guys!

Yes, the only way any work in NJ gets done is by the licensed contractor and/or his employees.

Gee, sounds familiar as I look back through this thread.

Thanks.

The contractor who has approached me needs to get these 40 compressors and air handlers swapped out. I will break the news to him on Monday and see if I can get the job done for him.

Thanks for letting us know the outcome Joe. Good luck getting the work.

[wawireguy]

Heck yeh! Time to get that job yourself!

[jjhoward]

I really need the details of the units.
This guy explained that his crew usually can do about 1.5 units/day!

I am thinking:
They are not very accessable.
or there is over abundance of hardware holding them in place??
They are for hotel rooms, how big could they be??

The devil is in those damn details.

[emahler]

next time....less doubting...more listening...

[ctmike]

So tell him the law prohibits you from renting your licence and your hourly rate is $ . You are avilaible on these days and go from there . If they were ready to go they must have all you need on handhopefully could be a good job in the long run if he has other hotels to do

[celtic]

Mz. Borek @ the NJ DCA stood up for you guys!

She is one sharp cookie http://forums.mikeholt.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[satcom]

She is one sharp cookie http://forums.mikeholt.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

Her dad was an electrician, and she really knows her way around the codes, including the rehab codes.

[quogueelectric]

You must take into consideration if the hotel is to stay in operation you will need to temp feed thru past the units as they are being worked on unless each unit has a dedicated ckt which I doubt if they are just fan coils. Just look at the job and give him a fair price and at the end of the job if you feel you made too much just give some back!

[Rockyd]

Don't know how big the units are, or how far in you have to set them, but on a large flat roof, have done mass amount of units with a helicopter before. Might want to check the price of a bird, and enough nets to stay ahead of the turn around time per pick.

Bird VS crane -check the cost.

Just some good brainstorming potentially...

[petersonra]

13:31-3.1 Worker’s compensation
(a) Business permit holders shall obtain the worker’s compensation insurance required by the laws of this State
covering employees employed by the business permit holder or his subcontractor. Business permit holders
shall maintain on file a certificate of insurance evidencing such coverage.
(b) Business permit holders shall ensure that all temporary employees working under the supervision of the permit
holders have obtained the required worker’s compensation coverage.
That certainly seems to imply they don't have to be employees of the EC who has the license.

[celtic]

13:31-3.1 Worker’s compensation
(a) Business permit holders shall obtain the worker’s compensation insurance required by the laws of this State
covering employees employed by the business permit holder or his subcontractor. Business permit holders
shall maintain on file a certificate of insurance evidencing such coverage.
(b) Business permit holders shall ensure that all temporary employees working under the supervision of the permit
holders have obtained the required worker’s compensation coverage.That certainly seems to imply they don't have to be employees of the EC who has the license.

Who would they be employees of?

[petersonra]

Who would they be employees of?
their employer.

[480sparky]

Who would they be employees of?

The temp agency.

[Power Tech]

Sounds like they get all the profit and you get all the liability. If I did contract with them I would wright up a workmanship clause that all work not to the standard of JH Electric shal be corrected by qualified personal at an hourly rate of ??? Don't sell yourself short or put yourself in the defendants seat.
Terry Power Tech

[ctmike]

Sounds like they get all the profit and you get all the liability. If I did contract with them I would wright up a workmanship clause that all work not to the standard of JH Electric shal be corrected by qualified personal at an hourly rate of ??? Don't sell yourself short or put yourself in the defendants seat.
Terry Power Tech

If you check post 40 of this thread I think you see the only way hes going to get involved is by doing the job

[jjhoward]

Yes, I agree that the text in the statutes re: supervision of electrical work does not explicitly say that a NJ EC can ONLY supervise HIS employees.

But when the experience speaks (through those with such experience on this forum) and the director or chief (not sure what her title is) of the NJ Board of Electrical Contractors also says “no way, no how” then I am going with no way, no how.

The AC/heater units with air handler are all mounted in a closet in each hotel room.

Seems like the AC/heaters have their own dsco in the closet, the air handlers have a dedicated breaker in the sub panel somewhere in the hotel room.

I will post the details of the job next week.

Thank you all for the input.

[celtic]

The temp agency.

ummm, no.
The temp agency does not employ them ~ they refer them to an employer.

[petersonra]

ummm, no.
The temp agency does not employ them ~ they refer them to an employer.

I don't know about NJ but here employees of a temp agency are employees of the temp agency. The temp agency pays their salary, pays whatever benefits they get, pays their FICA, WC, unemployment insurance, and whatever other taxes there are to be paid on them.

This is not a whole lot different than a building owner hiring a GC who subcontracts part of the work to Joe the EC. Joe's employees don't work for the GC or the building onwer.

[satcom]

Yes, I agree that the text in the statutes re: supervision of electrical work does not explicitly say that a NJ EC can ONLY supervise HIS employees.



I had an insurance company reinstate thousands of policies, because they used the wording (and or) in their contract, I guess the masters of business, were asleep in english 101.

His employees means just what it says.

[growler]

I don't know about NJ but here employees of a temp agency are employees of the temp agency. The temp agency pays their salary, pays whatever benefits they get, pays their FICA, WC, unemployment insurance, and whatever other taxes there are to be paid on them.

This is not a whole lot different than a building owner hiring a GC who subcontracts part of the work to Joe the EC. Joe's employees don't work for the GC or the building onwer.

To qualifiy as a contractor or sub contractor there must be a certain amount of autonomy. Rented employees do not have this autonomy they work under the direction of the owner or an agent of the owner. They are told when to show up for work, what tools if any to bring, when and if breaks are allowed, and are normally paid by the hour and are not under contract. The rented employees are as much under the control of the contractor as his regular full time employees during the time they are working for him.

The fact that electrical work must be done by the electrical contractor or his employees is because that is the only way he will have control over the project. Once control is established then so is responsibility. It just makes it easier to place blame if something were to go wrong.

[celtic]

I don't know about NJ but here employees of a temp agency are employees of the temp agency. The temp agency pays their salary, pays whatever benefits they get, pays their FICA, WC, unemployment insurance, and whatever other taxes there are to be paid on them.

This is not a whole lot different than a building owner hiring a GC who subcontracts part of the work to Joe the EC. Joe's employees don't work for the GC or the building onwer.

The GC doesn't pay anyone other than Joe.
Joe's employees work for Joe, not the GC.
Joe is responsible for FICA and other deductions.

These other deductions may be sent to another agency on the individuals behalf, but the other agency is not the employer ~ Joe, and Joe alone, is responsible for proper payment of the man's salary, benefits, etc

[quogueelectric]

The way this is skirted around by me is 2 companys will partner to do the job. Aparently there is no particular limit to the % of the job that you can partner too. The partner with the local license would of course file the job.

[petersonra]

To qualifiy as a contractor or sub contractor there must be a certain amount of autonomy. Rented employees do not have this autonomy they work under the direction of the owner or an agent of the owner. They are told when to show up for work, what tools if any to bring, when and if breaks are allowed, and are normally paid by the hour and are not under contract. The rented employees are as much under the control of the contractor as his regular full time employees during the time they are working for him.

This is a misunderstanding of the who is considered an employee for tax purposes versus who is a subcontractor. The autonomy and other issues you mentioned only come into play when determining if someone is a legitimate subcontractor versus being an employee.

There is generally no law that says an employee of company A cannot work under the supervision of company B. That is actually very common.

What is not permitted is to claim someone who is directly supervised by company B a subcontractor so company B can avoid various taxes, OT, etc. As long as company A is paying these things, there is no problem.

[celtic]

The way this is skirted around by me is 2 companys will partner to do the job. Aparently there is no particular limit to the % of the job that you can partner too. The partner with the local license would of course file the job.

NJ has very little bit to say on that :

13:31-3.5 Joint ventures
(a) Where two or more persons form a joint venture for the purpose of contracting to perform electrical work in
New Jersey, each party to the joint venture shall hold a business permit issued by the Board to engage in
electrical contracting in New Jersey.
(b) The term “persons,” as used in (a) above, is defined to mean individuals, corporations, partnerships or other
business entities.



....it does not say each party to the joint venture shall hold a electrical license ;)

[jjhoward]

I will be doing the all of the electrical work on this project.
The units have already been ordered and paid for, they are due to arrive end of this week.
I will de-energize all compressors/heaters and air handlers.

They pull out the old ones, put the new ones in place, I wire in the new units.

If required I may bring 1 man with me.

I anticipate this to be very uneventful, predictable and profitable!

[quogueelectric]

I will be doing the all of the electrical work on this project.
The units have already been ordered and paid for, they are due to arrive end of this week.
I will de-energize all compressors/heaters and air handlers.

They pull out the old ones, put the new ones in place, I wire in the new units.

If required I may bring 1 man with me.

I anticipate this to be very uneventful, predictable and profitable!

It doesnt get better than that. You wanna take me with you? I love rooftop ac units in the snow. :smile:

[jrannis]

how is this any different than an EC bringing in some guys from the hall for a few weeks to do a large job?

They would be your employees then.

[jrannis]

* you've been seriously injured at Action Park.
* you know that the only people who call it "Joisey" are from New York(usually The Bronx)or Texas.
* you don't think of citrus when people mention "The Oranges."
* you know that it's called "Great Adventure," not "Six Flags."
* you've ordered a hard roll with butter for breakfast.
* you've known the way to Seaside Heights since you were seven.
* you've eaten at a diner, when you were stoned or drunk, at 3 am.
* whenever you park, there's a Camaro within three spots of you.
* you remember that the "Two Guys" were from Harrison.
* you know that the state isn't one big oil refinery.
* at least three people in your family still love Bruce Springsteen, and you know what town Jon Bon Jovi is from.
* you know what a "jug handle" is.
* you know that a WaWa is a convenience store.
* you know that the state isn't all farmland.
* you know that it isnt "The Beach" in New Jersey - it's the shore, and you know that the road to the shore is "The Parkway" not "The Garden State Highway."
* you know that "Piney" isn't referring to a tree.
* even your school cafeteria made good Italian subs, and, you call it a "sub" not a "submarine sandwich" or worse yet, a "hoagie" or a "hero."
* you remember the song from the Palisades Park commercials.
* you know how to properly negotiate a Circle.
* you knew that the last question had to do with driving.
* you know that "Acme" is an actual store, not just a Warner Bros. creation.
* you know that this is the only "New..." state that doesn't require "New" to identify it (like, try ...Mexico, ...York, ...Hampshire (doesn't work, does it?).
* you only go to New York City for day trips, and you only call it "The City."
* you consider a corned beef sandwich with lettuce and mayo a sacrilege.
* in the 80's you wore your hair REALLY high. (wait, didn't everybody??)
* you don't think "What exit" (do you live near?) is very funny.
* you know that the real first "strip shopping center" in the country is Route 22.
* you know that people from 609 area code are "a little different."
* you know that no respectable New Jerseyan goes to Princeton - that's for out-of-staters.
* the Jets-Giants game has started fights at your school or local bar.
* you live within 20 minutes of at least three different malls.
* you can see the Manhattan skyline from some part of your town.
* you refer to all highways and interstates by their numbers.
* every year, you had at least one kid in your class named Tony.
* you know where every "clip" shown in the Sopranos opening credits is.
* you've gotten on the wrong highway trying to get out of Willowbrook Mall.
* you've eaten a Boardwalk cheesesteak with vinegar fries.
* you have a favorite Atlantic City casino.
* you start planning for Memorial Day weekend in February.
* you've never pumped your own gas. (Chris) Took me forever to get this one...
* you know how to navigate a circle while talking on a cell phone and smoking a Marlboro w/o using blinkers. (Mandie)
* every 3 miles you drive there is a deserted mall.
* most really nice homes have a gas station and a junk yard next door to them.
* you never tell the truth about what state you're from when strangers ask you in a chatroom.
* most of your cash is in dimes and quarters.
* even after moving to California, you still carry a separate change purse full of quarters and dimes for tolls. (Diane)
* you learned to drive by backing out of your driveway onto a 50 MPH road. (visitor submission)
* you have the shop install lumps and dents into your fenders so others will know that you have the strength in convinction to change lanes. (visitor submission)
* you take kick-boxing lessons hoping someone will tell you the two weeks in
New Jersey prize joke. (visitor submission)
* you know where highway 9 is from that Bruce Springsteen song. ( Steve Rothandler, srotha@yahoo.com )
* you have ever shopped at Wawa. ( Steve Rothandler, srotha@yahoo.com )

[celtic]

I anticipate this to be very uneventful, predictable and profitable!

You need my PO BOX # for my vig?
:wink:

[emahler]

You need my PO BOX # for my vig?
:wink:

might as well just send it to 34 Rt 34S, Colts Neck, NJ 07722:D

[celtic]

might as well just send it to 34 Rt 34S, Colts Neck, NJ 07722:D


I never agreed to "co-habitat" w/you!

:grin:

[emahler]

I never agreed to "co-habitat" w/you!

:grin:

that's not my address, you idiot...

[celtic]

that's not my address, you idiot...

:grin:

LMAO


>>>>>>>>