Price fixing is illegal - price sharing is not

[CopperTone]

Did you know that at plumbing supply houses, they post prices of what the guys are charging? just sharing information. some may not post it out in the open but the guy behind the counter knows. They share what they are charging - bathroom - (sink, toilet, shower - X amount) service calls x per hour, etc.
I always wondered why EC's don't do that. at least the bids would be real close and the low guy would still make great money.

Is that possible to do? or do you think that EC's want to be secretive about their pricing? seems dumb to me to hide it.
if everyone used estimating software maybe the prices would be closer as well.
Any thoughts?

[peter d]

Is that possible to do? or do you think that EC's want to be secretive about their pricing? seems dumb to me to hide it.
if everyone used estimating software maybe the prices would be closer as well.
Any thoughts?

If EC's shared their prices in this same manner, the natural result is that the next guy would try to under cut it. ;)

[satcom]

Price fixing is illegal, unless your a Bank fixing intrest rates, or a utility fixing so called plan prices, I guess if we call it a wiring plan, we can charge fixed rates?

[wireguru]

wait a minute...what are you doing hanging out in a plumbing supply house? :confused: seeing how the other half lives?

[grant]

Did you know that at plumbing supply houses, they post prices of what the guys are charging? just sharing information. some may not post it out in the open but the guy behind the counter knows. They share what they are charging - bathroom - (sink, toilet, shower - X amount) service calls x per hour, etc.
I always wondered why EC's don't do that. at least the bids would be real close and the low guy would still make great money.

Is that possible to do? or do you think that EC's want to be secretive about their pricing? seems dumb to me to hide it.
if everyone used estimating software maybe the prices would be closer as well.
Any thoughts?

The bidding process is the problem. Its always about the lowest price and not about who is providing what is called for. The blame goes to everyone from Engineers who do not hold their specifications, to Owners that do not really understand what is required for a proper installation, to General Contractors who only know one thing "price" and to Electrical Contractors who are always willing to undercut the next guy. Is anyone really wanted the correct price projects would be bid with the high and low price being thrown out.

[goldstar]

Some of the contractors' associations in my area publish suggested minimum rates for things like service upgrades, hot tub installs, etc., but it is published to the members only. I recently tried to get my association to publish something like this so I took it on my own to do a blind survey. I came to a meeting with some 30 surveys and only got back 11. Most of the guys didn't take it seriously. However, when I published the results everyone seemed to want a copy. A vast majority were more interested in what the neighboring county (and a wealthier county) was charging for their services.

This all started when I did some work for a plumbing contractor doing work in the wealthier county. I charged him $95/hr plus materials marked up 20%. When he went to write me out a check I asked what he was getting for his work and he said $160/hr.

It seems as though the vast majority of plumbers stick together with respect to labor prices but us electricians take every opportunity to cut each others throats. I can't figure it out. As far as I'm concerned I'd rather work at a higher level and get paid what I deserve (within reason) rather than bottom feed and be the lowest bidder.

[Rockyd]

Is anyone really wanted the correct price projects would be bid with the high and low price being thrown out.


A statement of qualification to bid said type of project might help too. A romex king doesn't possess the same set of skills as say a contractor who bids excluswively on waste water projects.

[electricmanscott]

Price fixing is illegal, unless your a Bank fixing intrest rates, or a utility fixing so called plan prices, I guess if we call it a wiring plan, we can charge fixed rates?

Maybe so but what does this have to do with electricians telling each other what they charge?

[ivsenroute]

It seems as though the vast majority of plumbers stick together with respect to labor prices but us electricians take every opportunity to cut each others throats. I can't figure it out. As far as I'm concerned I'd rather work at a higher level and get paid what I deserve (within reason) rather than bottom feed and be the lowest bidder.

Yes, and that is why they make more money than us.

[Greg Swartz]

If EC's shared their prices in this same manner, the natural result is that the next guy would try to under cut it. ;)
I absolutely agree... it is human nature.

If you can do it for $5, I gotta be able to do it for $4.99...

Then I can make a buck, and you dont...

[mdshunk]

Okay, I'll go first. I get $88 to reset a GFCI. If you want to know why it tripped, or possibly have me do something to keep it from happening again, that will cost more.

[peter d]

Okay, I'll go first. I get $88 to reset a GFCI. If you want to know why it tripped, or possibly have me do something to keep it from happening again, that will cost more.


How much do you get for a 750 kilovolt substation?

[stickboy1375]

Okay, I'll go first. I get $88 to reset a GFCI. If you want to know why it tripped, or possibly have me do something to keep it from happening again, that will cost more.



I would charge $90, stop selling yourself short. :wink: In fact why not a nice 100 dollars? I just took my truck in to get repaired, got a quote for $3000, I never even blinked an eye, seems like it is just electricians that dont know what they are worth and what they should be charging.

[weressl]

The bidding process is the problem. Its always about the lowest price and not about who is providing what is called for. The blame goes to everyone from Engineers who do not hold their specifications, to Owners that do not really understand what is required for a proper installation, to General Contractors who only know one thing "price" and to Electrical Contractors who are always willing to undercut the next guy. Is anyone really wanted the correct price projects would be bid with the high and low price being thrown out.

I always have a pre-bid meeting. This meeting usually occurs about 2 weeks after I issued the inquiry. All Contractors are present. We go over the entire set of the documents, the written specification, the plans and the materials that I purchased, usually engineered items or large bulk items where we have volume pricing leverage with some houses. Each Contractor hears the other's questions and all receive written clarification. If there are errors in the design, they are corrected before the project takes off. I loath change orders, because it means that I have not done my job. On hold items are covered by T&M or unit pricing. My Construction specification is not your standard drown-in-paper 'engineering specification' where the document is a CYA for Engineering Contractors. It is usually about 15 pages for a 1-3M$ job. It walks the Contractor through the job, preferably in sequence of construction, like a task list. It correlates with the drawings. I detail the materials I supply. The rest is covered by Technical Standards that are always the same.
At the end of the job they have to be happy and I have to be happy and both of us should feel that we had a fair deal. I do not go to baseball games or hunting trips, but every once-in-a-while share a lunch to establish some non-business relationship with those who work with me. I am not your pal nor am I your enemy. You MUST make a profit to do a good job for me, not just today, but that I can rely on you tomorrow.

Colluding with Contractors to shake out jobs on who gets when and what will get you nowhere with me. I know what the value of your work is and will be asking you for an itemized bid, so we can go over where your bid is high and where it is low, so neither will you overcharge me nor will you get caught short because you overlooked the item in the bid.

Through the 30+ years I was deposited once. As it turned out a small firm whose owner was already retired, but still owned a business hired somebody to run the business for the kids, who were not in the profession but were inheriting the business. So they hired this Texas slick and in the following two years they had all the work they can handle and then some. However, 90% of their Contract ended up in court, based on lawsuits the slick initiated. They sued us for ~300K and got 14K. Most of their cases wound up like that. Spent 3-4 times as much in lawyer’s fees. Of course the Company went out of business in five years after the slick showed up as nobody would ask them to bid.

[dezwitinc]

I always have a pre-bid meeting. .

Are your prebids mandatory?
I wish that all of them would be.
It would help to even the playing field.
We bid alot of public and utility work and I would say that at least 60% of the time, the apparent low bidder is not listed on the sign in sheet.
I think that alot of people pass on these meeting so they don't get to know too much about the project.

[emahler]

for those of you who bid commercial projects, how many times do you call the supply house and get put on the list for a projects gear and lighting packages...we all get the same pricing (for the most part)...is that price fixing?

[hardworkingstiff]

for those of you who bid commercial projects, how many times do you call the supply house and get put on the list for a projects gear and lighting packages...we all get the same pricing (for the most part)...is that price fixing?

Possibly. Funny how that works, huh.

[emahler]

Possibly. Funny how that works, huh.

yeah, i was a little surprised when i learned about this...

[grant]

for those of you who bid commercial projects, how many times do you call the supply house and get put on the list for a projects gear and lighting packages...we all get the same pricing (for the most part)...is that price fixing?

Having spend many years in the wholesale end of the business, bidding projects, I can tell you that unless you are local, have a relationship that includes doing business on a regular basis with that wholesale house, you will not get the best price. Just like Electrical Contractors using the Bid Box, the wholesale house is looking at who will be their best partner in getting the project. If several contractors submit, as an example, a fixture count and they are different, the wholesale quote will say its per your count but if yours is the low count the wholesale house will still cover the higher count and so will the fixture rep's. If your count turns out to be correct, the whole house made some extra money.

[brantmacga]

in my area, plumbers and hvac are always very close on price (there are a couple that undercut); electricians will cut your throat out and feed it to you while stomping your face with a hobnail boot.

[Pierre C Belarge]

As has been mentioned, it is not illegal for ECs to speak to each other about how they price out jobs in general.

If they get together to price a particular job, that is an issue.

So, posting pricing as in general is not an issue that will get one in trouble.

[quogueelectric]

I recently did a kids bathroom for the owner of a plumbing supply out here . He was telling me how tempting it was for him to be an electrical supply house because the markup was so much higher he kept on repeating it as we built his 25,000 bathroom for his kids. God bless him. It really made him pissed.

[dezwitinc]

in my area, plumbers and hvac are always very close on price (there are a couple that undercut); electricians will cut your throat out and feed it to you while stomping your face with a hobnail boot.

Why do you suppose that is?
I have been trying to figure it out for years.
Look at the bid results on most any job and the plumbers will all be within a few points of each other and the electricians are all over the map.
Is estimating plumbing that cut and dried whereas the electrical is open to a different interpretation by everyone?
Any opinions?

[mdshunk]

Certain types of price fixing is legal. They call this "brand maintenance". This is one reason why you can often get Square D stuff from non-authorized Square D distributors cheaper than authorized distributors. There is a price floor, below which dealers aren't supposed to sell the product.

Reference the very recent Supreme Court ruling knows as the "price floor ruling". Leegin Creative Leather Products Inc. vs. PSKS Inc.

[Rockyd]

The better you get at estimating, the less likely you are to actually get the job...

[emahler]

The better you get at estimating, the less likely you are to actually get the job...

ain't that the truth...

[tonyou812]

ain't that the truth...

that sounds like a Yogiberaism

[hardworkingstiff]

The better you get at estimating, the less likely you are to actually get the job...

Rocky, that's funny (only because it's so true).

[sgr1]

A good friend of mine told me I wouldn't be a good estimator because I know how to do the job. He told me not to over estimate my jobs. LOL

[Former Jeanyus]

The better you get at estimating, the less likely you are to actually get the job...

Well that's my problem then! I've been 'practicing' way too much...

And there certainly have been a lot of contractors dropping their prices like they're a K-Mart doing blue-light specials. Maybe if we can hang on long enough for a couple of these to go under, we can pick up the job from the bonding company.

[jmsbrush]

Guys speaking of estimating, I'm in OK right now visiting my cousin. He is a roofer contractor. He is making such a great living.
He is actualy making 30% on some jobs (big jobs) Making incredible profits.

HE also is a GC. He showed me some of the neighbor hoods that he built.
I asked him on top of his head how much are the Electricians charging? I said give me a rough price.
He said $3.00 a square. Thats no different that FL.
Things are so tight I started bidding at 10 % and still can't land jobs.
Here he is making $18,000 to $30,000 per job PROFIT.
For roofs. Imo not nearly as technical as Electrical.