Fridays pictures on Friday

[chris kennedy]

12/05/08. Another day at the beach. Whats that red stuff? Deep enough?

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa80/chris_kennedy/Lifeskillsunderground12-5009.jpg

This is a 5" PVC POCO MV primary and a 2" feeder for pool panel and three 2" data com conduits. Any problems here?

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa80/chris_kennedy/Lifeskillsunderground12-5012.jpg

[nolabama]

i absolutly hate underground

[LLSolutions]

I'm sure it beats digging in New York.

[chris kennedy]

i absolutly hate underground

I absolutely love it. Bulldozers and dirt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHuYnqoXzjc).

[hardworkingstiff]

Any problems here?



What's the soil class?

I think if OSHA came on site you might get cited.

[chris kennedy]

What's the soil class?

I think if OSHA came on site you might get cited.

Look at the second picture. The ditch is stepped.

[hardworkingstiff]

Look at the second picture. The ditch is stepped.

I think OSHA would say you don't have your excavated material 2' or more fromt he edge of the excavation. I also think they may comment on the negative slope (1st picture on the left side as we are looking at it with the asphalt undercut and excavated material on top of it).

I'm not trying to bust your chops Chris. It's just not OSHA compliant.

[chris kennedy]

I'm not trying to bust your chops Chris. It's just not OSHA compliant.

Not a problem at all. I asked if anyone could see issues here. Bear in mind that the steps built here tend to disappear as the sun hits them and as we back fill. Cave ins are an issue here and it always happens on the side the sun hits.

Would you have an OSHA link for this type of work?

[quogueelectric]

20 yrs ago we were running 4" pipe in a trench similar to this. The trench caved in a little so eddie jumped down in the trench and started scooping out sand from the end of the 4"s .
At the last scoop he got his arm up to the elbow to get all the sand out. It was at this time that the trench colapsed a lot up to his neck with his arm stuck in the end of the pipe. He was trapped and the sand kept coming now over his mouth .
We were talking to the backhoe operator about crushing his arm off so we could save his life. We dug frantically and somehow got him out without any harm but a few mouthfulls of sand.
Not a fun moment. Work safe. Go home to your family every night this is just a job.

[hardworkingstiff]

Would you have an OSHA link for this type of work?

You can start here.

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/construction/trenching/mainpage.html

[wireguru]

20 yrs ago we were running 4" pipe in a trench similar to this. The trench caved in a little so eddie jumped down in the trench and started scooping out sand from the end of the 4"s .
At the last scoop he got his arm up to the elbow to get all the sand out. It was at this time that the trench colapsed a lot up to his neck with his arm stuck in the end of the pipe. He was trapped and the sand kept coming now over his mouth .
We were talking to the backhoe operator about crushing his arm off so we could save his life. We dug frantically and somehow got him out without any harm but a few mouthfulls of sand.
Not a fun moment. Work safe. Go home to your family every night this is just a job.

i can picture that conversation:
guy 1 to backhoe operator: "do you think you can rip his arm off, then scoop him out??"

day laborer: "hey...i have this shovel. maybe you could use it to dig him out or something"

guy in trench: "yeah! do what that second guy said!"

[220/221]

Ever use an 8' step ladder for underground work?

I had to re route conduit to clear several parking canopy posts (9 ' holes)


http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/JohnC1952/DSC02047.jpg

[bjp_ne_elec]

I'm sure it beats digging in New York.

Try NH - you need dynamite.

[nolabama]

try new orleans you need caissons and pumps

[hardworkingstiff]

I came across this just now.

http://www.trenchsafety.org/

[COFFEE TIME]

i maybe wrong. and you allready have it in there. but i think the warning tape is to be installed 6 to 12 inches below finish grade?

[Fulthrotl]

This is a 5" PVC POCO MV primary and a 2" feeder for pool panel and three 2" data com conduits. Any problems here?

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa80/chris_kennedy/Lifeskillsunderground12-5012.jpg

well, it's awfully sandy, and the spoil isn't very far from the edge of the
ditch... it's a bit iffy... it's not like it's a square sided ditch or anything,
and you have some setbacks, but still.... osha'd prolly have a twinkie.

on the other hand, it sure beats digging in so calif. we have something
called caleiche, and it's about the consistency of asphalt, but stickier.
i have a hilti demo hammer with a clay spade, for a good reason.

how much separation you have between phone conduits and power?
the MV is shielded, but the LV isn't.... one foot is normally the separation.

randy

[360Youth]

I'm sure it beats digging in New York.

Up north it may take an hour to dig one ditch. At the beach it takes an hour dig dig the same ditch five times.:smile:



http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa80/chris_kennedy/Lifeskillsunderground12-5009.jpg



A hole that size, and no shovel. Nice. Why are you making the guys dig with their bare hands?

[iwire]

Ever use an 8' step ladder for underground work?

I had to re route conduit to clear several parking canopy posts (9 ' holes)


http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/JohnC1952/DSC02047.jpg


Going down in that hole is just plain stupid.

[360Youth]

Depends on how tall you are.

[480sparky]

Depends on how tall you are.

Even if you had your head out the hole when it collapsed, you would still die from constriction of the chest.

[KentAT]

Not a problem at all. I asked if anyone could see issues here. Bear in mind that the steps built here tend to disappear as the sun hits them and as we back fill. Cave ins are an issue here and it always happens on the side the sun hits.

Would you have an OSHA link for this type of work?

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10930

1. Looks like sand or another "granular material", making it likely to be a Type C soil classification. That requires sloping to be 1.5:1, horizontal to vertical. Assuming the excavation depth is 6 feet, the sides would need to be sloped 9 feet horizontally for the 6 feet vertical. Not even close in that photo. OSHA 1926.652(b)(1) for starters, unless another slope design option is selected and used, and 1926 Subpart P App B

2. Means of egress - ladder should be long enough to extend 3 feet above the edge of the trench. This is what I've been taught, but I can't find it in the OSHA regs.

3. Spoil pile at least 2 feet from edge of trench. OSHA 1926.651(j)(2)

BTW, last year, another employee of my company was onsite while a utility was installing lines crossing our buried gas pipeline. Their trench was 8-10 ft deep I think, and our guy expressed concerns to the utility guy about how it was an unsafe trench and the utility guy came over to talk to our guy. It wasn't our trench or our responsibility, but it was worth it to our guy to speak up and mention it for safety's sake. While they were discussing it in a friendly manner, the trench collapsed right in front of them. It surely would have killed the utility dude if he were down in the trench.

Kent

[ivsenroute]

Ahhhhhhh the perils of posting one's pictures on this site. It can be a wakeup call. I know firsthand.

In this case, the electrical installation became backseat to significant safety issues and I AM THRILLED that so many people went right to the OSHA and safety issues.

Excellent.

[quogueelectric]

12/05/08. Another day at the beach. Whats that red stuff? Deep enough?

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa80/chris_kennedy/Lifeskillsunderground12-5009.jpg

This is a 5" PVC POCO MV primary and a 2" feeder for pool panel and three 2" data com conduits. Any problems here?

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa80/chris_kennedy/Lifeskillsunderground12-5012.jpg

Alright I will go fourhundred for the steel toed sneakers in the picture. I always like to run my pool feeders with my primary.

[LarryFine]

I asked if anyone could see issues here.I don't. There's no picture. :confused:

Added: Now I see the pix!

[LarryFine]

i can picture that conversation:
guy 1 to backhoe operator: "do you think you can rip his arm off, then scoop him out??""Yeah, but not necessarily in that order!"

[LarryFine]

That is some sandy stuff. I wouldn't pop bubble-gum bubbles in there. :rolleyes:

[quogueelectric]

"Yeah, but not necessarily in that order!"
It wasnt funny at the time.

[LarryFine]

It wasnt funny at the time.I know. I got freaked as I was reading the post. Sorry. 8-)

[quogueelectric]

I know. I got freaked as I was reading the post. Sorry. 8-)The Good Lord was watching Eddie that day. A matter of good to disaster to good in the matter of 5 minutes. It seemed like an eternity while it was happening. Happy ending never the less.:smile:

[Greg Swartz]

...This is a 5" PVC POCO MV primary ...

MV... about 15kV?

[220/221]

Going down in that hole is just plain stupid.

Not really. The conduit was about 3 1/2 to 4' deep. If the hole collapsed it could only bury my feet.....and 1/2 my ladder.

Even if you had your head out the hole when it collapsed, you would still die from constriction of the chest.

Uhh...no. there is still a hole to fill. The ground can't magically just completely close up. If it wasn't safe, I wouldn't have done it. It's not like I climbed all the way to the bottom and worked the conduit at eye level. My chest was above grade most of the time. I had to bend in to measure, glue and fit the PVC. Even a complete collapse would not have put me in peril.

Soil conditions were good too.

[billsnuff]

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owares.do_search?p_doc_type=STANDARDS&p_search_type=StandTextPolicy&p_search_str=excavation

[masterinbama]

Osha also frowns upon sleeveless shirts.
As far as I can tell the excavation is stepped back an acceptable distance. I wish our soil was like that.Around here we have what is called CHIRT I think it stands for Crusty Hard Impenetrable Rocky Trash. I go through 2 sets of backhoe teeth a year.

[480sparky]

Osha also frowns upon sleeveless shirts.......

And shorts. Don't know about the rest of the crew since they aren't pictured.

[roger]

I posted this article (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E02E1DA123FF932A15751C1A9659C8B 63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all) in this thread (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=68801) a few years ago, it had some pictures in the original which were sad to see.

As far as OSHA is concerned in the article, you would probably get off lighter having someone die in a trench than you would just getting caught in an improper trench. http://forums.mikeholt.com/images/icons/icon13.gif

Roger

[don_resqcapt19]

Not really. The conduit was about 3 1/2 to 4' deep. If the hole collapsed it could only bury my feet.....and 1/2 my ladder.



Uhh...no. there is still a hole to fill. The ground can't magically just completely close up. If it wasn't safe, I wouldn't have done it. It's not like I climbed all the way to the bottom and worked the conduit at eye level. My chest was above grade most of the time. I had to bend in to measure, glue and fit the PVC. Even a complete collapse would not have put me in peril.

Soil conditions were good too.
Even if the hole was poured concrete it is a confined space with a depth of more than 5'. A harness and a mechanical means of lifting you out of there is required. It may even be a permit required confined space entry triggering even more safety precautions.

[chris kennedy]

A hole that size, and no shovel. Nice. Why are you making the guys dig with their bare hands?

I was, but after your post I bought Al a shovel. Really doesn't look like he's got the hang of that yet.

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa80/chris_kennedy/Lifeskillsunderground12-5017.jpg



And shorts. Don't know about the rest of the crew since they aren't pictured.

What crew? It's Al and myself.

[Fulthrotl]

As far as OSHA is concerned in the article, you would probably get off lighter having someone die in a trench than you would just getting caught in an improper trench. http://forums.mikeholt.com/images/icons/icon13.gif

Roger

please note, the following screed and diatribe is not related to this
thread at all, but is in response to roger's link to the article about
the plumbers apprentice being killed in a cave in. it's worth reading.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E02E1DA123FF932A15751C1A9659C8B 63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

after reading this article, the contempt and utter disregard that i hold
for OSHA was just re established. no new information, just a reaffirmation
of old disgust.

OSHA isn't the problem, and it sure isn't the solution. IMHO, you know
what the problem is?

US. all of us.

workplace safety is the first item on a list that might be called
"workplace conditions"...... and there are a number of aspects to it,
including, but not limited to:

personal physical safety.
clean toilet areas.
proper dust control.

30 years ago, if there was an intolerable workplace situation,
the foremen, or general foremen for the various trades would
go have a chat with the GC's project management, and the
situation would be corrected.

if your jobsite trailer is invaded by the sparkie, sprinkie, and
tin knocker's foremen, and they all matter of factly say you
WILL provide a rent a cop for the offsite parking lot, so the
craftspeople don't have their cars broken into, it'll get done.
is it a safety issue? no. is it important? yes. do you have
the right to expect your personal effects to be secure if you
are required to leave your vehicle 3 miles away, as a condition
of your employment? i think so.

people often underestimate the effectiveness of simple
intimidation, and the certain knowledge that a work stoppage
is the likely outcome of noncompliance with a reasonable request.

nobody has the stones to do this anymore. this lack of stones
is the REAL unsafe situation on most jobsites.

i have a ZERO tolerance for people ruining my working conditions
because they are too cheap, lazy, or pigheaded stupid to
provide a decent working situation.

if i am spending 8 hours breathing dirt and drywall dust because
you are too cheap to buy $18 worth of sweeping compound for
your laborer who is sweeping the floors on a high rise that is
enclosed, don't be surprised if i want to march you up there
to stand right next to me and breath it in for half an hour,
before i knock your teeth out.

when i noticed working conditions turning to trash was in the
early 80's, when a sparky needed to work 52 weeks a year to
make their mortgage payment, and the payment on the ski boat,
anda, anda, anda.... and they couldn't afford to risk losing a
job because they complained about unsafe or unhealthy work
conditions. in the southern california area, that's when i really
noticed things going to seed.

so, from my point of view, the FIRST unsafe thing i can do is
to live my life from such an overextended point of view,
that i can't AFFORD to walk off a job to save my life.

and whose fault is that? an employer?
i don't think so.

i was a second year apprentice, and my journeyman was a
man who i'll call "wild bill k*****"

the plumber on a commercial job (hospital) was doing something
slightly unsafe, and extremely annoying. bill went over at lunch
to talk to him about it, and was told in no uncertain terms where
he could place his problem.

bill didn't even blink. he walked over to his truck, reached behind
the seat, and pulled out a 12 gauge shotgun, and walked back
to the plumbers trailer, jacked a round in, and announced if the
plumber didn't stop the offending actions, bill would kill him, and
his dog as well. calmly, quietly, like a man ordering breakfast.

my eyes musta looked like saucers. i believed he would do it.
i think the plumber believed it as well. the problem was resolved,
and by the end of the job, they were pretty good friends, enough
to have a beer after work together.

you say you'd call the police? on wild bill? are you NUTS?
that would be a REALLY unsafe act. nobody even considered it,
of that i am sure.

he wasn't the craziest guy on the crew, either. there was
another guy who REALLY scared me. wild bill was merely a
man who could be persuasive.

everyone on the jobsite was well behaved after that, and
considerate of each other, and of each other's work.

all you need is a self appointed safety officer with a shotgun,
putting the fun back in dysfunctional.


randy

[quogueelectric]

please note, the following screed and diatribe is not related to this
thread at all, but is in response to roger's link to the article about
the plumbers apprentice being killed in a cave in. it's worth reading.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E02E1DA123FF932A15751C1A9659C8B 63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

after reading this article, the contempt and utter disregard that i hold
for OSHA was just re established. no new information, just a reaffirmation
of old disgust.

OSHA isn't the problem, and it sure isn't the solution. IMHO, you know
what the problem is?

US. all of us.

workplace safety is the first item on a list that might be called
"workplace conditions"...... and there are a number of aspects to it,
including, but not limited to:

personal physical safety.
clean toilet areas.
proper dust control.

30 years ago, if there was an intolerable workplace situation,
the foremen, or general foremen for the various trades would
go have a chat with the GC's project management, and the
situation would be corrected.

if your jobsite trailer is invaded by the sparkie, sprinkie, and
tin knocker's foremen, and they all matter of factly say you
WILL provide a rent a cop for the offsite parking lot, so the
craftspeople don't have their cars broken into, it'll get done.
is it a safety issue? no. is it important? yes. do you have
the right to expect your personal effects to be secure if you
are required to leave your vehicle 3 miles away, as a condition
of your employment? i think so.

people often underestimate the effectiveness of simple
intimidation, and the certain knowledge that a work stoppage
is the likely outcome of noncompliance with a reasonable request.

nobody has the stones to do this anymore. this lack of stones
is the REAL unsafe situation on most jobsites.

i have a ZERO tolerance for people ruining my working conditions
because they are too cheap, lazy, or pigheaded stupid to
provide a decent working situation.

if i am spending 8 hours breathing dirt and drywall dust because
you are too cheap to buy $18 worth of sweeping compound for
your laborer who is sweeping the floors on a high rise that is
enclosed, don't be surprised if i want to march you up there
to stand right next to me and breath it in for half an hour,
before i knock your teeth out.

when i noticed working conditions turning to trash was in the
early 80's, when a sparky needed to work 52 weeks a year to
make their mortgage payment, and the payment on the ski boat,
anda, anda, anda.... and they couldn't afford to risk losing a
job because they complained about unsafe or unhealthy work
conditions. in the southern california area, that's when i really
noticed things going to seed.

so, from my point of view, the FIRST unsafe thing i can do is
to live my life from such an overextended point of view,
that i can't AFFORD to walk off a job to save my life.

and whose fault is that? an employer?
i don't think so.

i was a second year apprentice, and my journeyman was a
man who i'll call "wild bill k*****"

the plumber on a commercial job (hospital) was doing something
slightly unsafe, and extremely annoying. bill went over at lunch
to talk to him about it, and was told in no uncertain terms where
he could place his problem.

bill didn't even blink. he walked over to his truck, reached behind
the seat, and pulled out a 12 gauge shotgun, and walked back
to the plumbers trailer, jacked a round in, and announced if the
plumber didn't stop the offending actions, bill would kill him, and
his dog as well. calmly, quietly, like a man ordering breakfast.

my eyes musta looked like saucers. i believed he would do it.
i think the plumber believed it as well. the problem was resolved,
and by the end of the job, they were pretty good friends, enough
to have a beer after work together.

you say you'd call the police? on wild bill? are you NUTS?
that would be a REALLY unsafe act. nobody even considered it,
of that i am sure.

he wasn't the craziest guy on the crew, either. there was
another guy who REALLY scared me. wild bill was merely a
man who could be persuasive.

everyone on the jobsite was well behaved after that, and
considerate of each other, and of each other's work.

all you need is a self appointed safety officer with a shotgun,
putting the fun back in dysfunctional.


randy

Hey I like Bill and s--ew the plumbers