Engineers and Egos

[ivsenroute]

I have not had any major problems dealing with engineers until this past week. It was a structural engineer, not an electrical engineer but the question is more of a broad question that includes electrical engineers.

In this case, I rejected a sealed drawing from an engineer on a structural repair because it did not meet the design criteria of the IBC. He was livid and is under the impression that his seal forces me to accept it.

After he made changes and resubmitted a better design, I rejected it again because he made a mistake and was lacking specs on the LVL's that he specified. Don't even ask what happened next.

So the question is when dealing with electrical engineers, for those who do; do you question them when there is a problem or just play dumb and do what they specify?

What kind of reception do you get when questioning engineers?

[quogueelectric]

I usually fight with them and when I am begging them to change the contacts on a piece of machinery because the logic is reversed due to mechanical reasons. It usually goes something like this .
I am begging you to give me 5 minutes to reverse logic before 6 of us rip these machines entirely apart and end up with the same result 2 days later. This has always worked for me but you need a crowd of witnesses and you had better be right.
The engineer will mutter for days about contact position in a box on the shelf. Thats how I like to do it.

[Pierre C Belarge]

I am in the process of electrical inspections for a large healthcare facility.
I had quite a few questions about the engineering of the installation for some existing portions of the different electrical rooms. I asked the engineer to provide a letter for his design. I received the letter and did not accept it, as I thought it was very vague in response. The Healthcare facility decided to bring in a 3rd party testing company, as this process I was involved in with the engineer was holding up more than one project. The 3rd party testing company spent 10 days testing. Their results confirmed my suspicions, and went even further in their results, than I or the healthcare facility had anticipated.


Needless to say, there is another engineering company on the property designing the necessary changes.

The cool part is, that I got to witness the testing being performed over a period while the 3rd party was there.

[quogueelectric]

I believe that engineers are subject to the same buisness conditions that contractors are. You dont need everyone to be a rocket engineer.

So some ecs hire day laborors and aprentices and other minimally trained individuals and try to finish the job. Some Engineering firms may have some engineers right out of college that are minimally paid and they give them a set of prints to design a system for and we will work out the bugs later.

You get what you pay for if you are smart or lucky. The fat cats are out hitting the links with clients wondering what is taking that kid so long.

[grant]

This is a very interesting profession. It is the only place I know where you spend years and years learning more and more about less and less, until you know practically everything about nothing. The best Electrical Engineers I know have come from the field. I have also found throught the years that working with the local Engineers is much better than just looking for mistakes without solutions. This industry is constantly changing and working together can bring mutual respect to both the Engineer and the Contractor.

[billdozier]

I personaly feel that an ee should have to spend some time in the field. to fully understand what we have to go through. In order to make there sounds good on papers ideas work

[LarryFine]

I personaly feel that an ee should have to spend some time in the field. to fully understand what we have to go through. In order to make there sounds good on papers ideas workThe same has been said about architects. They sometimes make designs that are almost impossible to build. They seem to be unable to think three-dimensionally, which doesn't make sense.

[Lcdrwalker]

The dealings that I have had with engineers have been very cordial. Once an error is pointed out with substantiating reference, the EE is willing to make the necessary changes. As it was pointed out, there has to be some mutual respect. As of late though, I have found that mistakes are not the problem. The problem is incomplete plans. The EC is left to do load calcs, conduit and box fill, short circuit calcs voltage drop and these are to just name a few.

I will also agree with billdozier. I believe taht every MEP curiculum should mandate at least one year in the field in that area of disiplin.

[Greg Swartz]

Well, I certainly understand the idea of having at least 1 year in the field.

After nearly 17 years in the field, I finished my EE.

But I will tell you that when I tell a EE he is wrong... well, things don't go well.

Maybe it's that Gyriene attitude, maybe I just rub them the wrong way... but as soon as I say anything that even implies the engineer could be even slightly misguided... well, the walls start coming up.

The problem is, that I have been going to school for the last 6 years, and each term, I understood the engineers more... (that worries me) I understood their thinking... I understood their flaws... I understood the flaws in their thinking... and I was able to backtrack things... and as much as I thought that would help, it did not. It just made the engineer more defensive.

So, now I am learning to design my own... and I'll tell you it is NOT easy. (Not as easy as I thought it would be anyway.) The process can be very tedious, and one mistake in the wrong spot could cost you hours of work.

So, I do understand... but I just don't care: It does not matter who you are... when you are wrong... you are wrong.

[petersonra]

The engineer will mutter for days about contact position in a box on the shelf.
A lot of electricians seem to have trouble with this concept. I am not real sure why. It seems pretty basic to me, but I run into the issue all the time.

I used to do some work for a company that had an unusual standard for wiring and setting valve limit switches. I figured it was going to be trouble so I drew it as clear as I could and even put an explanatory note on the drawing. Didn't matter. I got a fax after the EC did the install telling me how they had "fixed" my mistake.

[emahler]

as a professional, we question nearly everything done by the engineers...because it's our job...however, when we discover issues, we don't just say "you screwed up"...we work with the engineers to determine whether there is a true problem, and the best solution...

to not do so is wrong...

[nakulak]

We've had the good fortune to do some fairly crazy work, along with normal stuff, and I've never really had any bad experiences with engineers (maybe I've been lucky). However, I am always very polite when informing them that they are wrong, and I have never had to refuse to install something because, when I have informed /addressed them in the correct language, being the reasonably intelligent people that they usually are, they have seen the writing on the wall. The correct language is usually something like :

"when preparing to do this portion of the work we were double checking the calculation for ... and were concerned that ... might be inadequate. Please confirm in writing that there are no typographical errors on detail x page x dated x/x/x so that we may commence this portion of the work."

of course, if put in the situation where the engineer was willing to put his butt on the line for a glaring error which would put lives at stake, I imagine that it would be necessary to refuse to do the work; fortunately, I have not yet been in that position. (I have, however, taken architects and especially "designers" to task, as the bad ones make everyone's life miserable (including the client))

[drbond24]

I knew my ears were burning for a reason. :)

Engineers are regular people just like everyone else. Some are OK, some are really good, and some are jerks. It has less to do with the degree and more to do with what that person is like. To say the same thing a different way, if you are dealing with an engineer that is a jerk, that person is just a jerk that happens to be an engineer. There are lots of other jerks that happen to be lawyers, teachers, and yes, even electricians. :)

Dislike the jerk, not the profession.

[macmikeman]

I personaly feel that an ee should have to spend some time in the field. to fully understand what we have to go through. In order to make there sounds good on papers ideas work

Well, I personaly feel that the EE should have to spend at least some time in the field at the sites he is providing the engineering for. I get a bit perturbed when the one line drawing shows a new extension from an existing three phase wye208 volt system, and the actual system on the jobsight sight is single phase 240/120. Stuff like that....:roll:

[sparkchaser1961]

I knew my ears were burning for a reason. :)

Engineers are regular people just like everyone else. Some are OK, some are really good, and some are jerks. It has less to do with the degree and more to do with what that person is like. To say the same thing a different way, if you are dealing with an engineer that is a jerk, that person is just a jerk that happens to be an engineer. There are lots of other jerks that happen to be lawyers, teachers, and yes, even electricians. :)

Dislike the jerk, not the profession.

Right on! Good post.

[DAWGS]

I was filling in for my General Foreman when he was on vacation at a plant that we have steady work at. One of the EE's came up to me and pointed out a conduit drop from the ceiling that had no support and proceeded on how shabby it was, I agreed and told him I was sure it was existing and we did not do the work. He then pointed out some SO cord used as a wiring method to a receptacle. (their maintenance is known for that), and I again told him it wasnt one of our installs. Then the greatest part happened and he pointed out a receptacle and told me "code says" it needs to be ground up. I told him that was not true. After arguing about it he sais he will look it up, I told him if he finds it I will change them out in the whole plant and eat the cost.:wink:

[weressl]

Hm.... how about the electricians who decided to rewire 500+ pushbuttons in the field where the only thing need to be changed an incorrectly configured I/O status? Then they went around to spread the news how badly the EE's and ED's have screwed up.

Of course all the documentation needed to be changed.

If we don't talk, such things will occur. If everyone realizes that only cooperation takes us to good overall results, reason will prevail.

[charlie b]

He was . . . under the impression that his seal forces me to accept it.
The one and only thing that sealing a document conveys is the assertion that the work was done by, or under the supervision of, the person applying the seal. That does not, by itself, require anyone to accept anything. The question of whether an inspector must accept a document that is sealed by an engineer is one of local laws.

Let me offer a counter example. Suppose I wanted to fill a conduit with wires of several sizes. Suppose that if all the wires were of the largest size, then number of wires would be over the limits shown in the appropriate Annex C table. Suppose I performed a calculation using the individual areas of each conductor, and was able to demonstate that the total area was less than 40% of the internal area of the conduit. Suppose that I signed and sealed that calculation, and included it in the package I sent for your approval. Would you feel compelled to accept my calculation, or would you reject the package on the basis that the set of wire sizes in my design does not appear in Annex C?

[charlie b]

The engineer will mutter for days about contact position in a box on the shelf. Thats how I like to do it.
I am not sure I understand this comment. But when I design a control scheme, the symbols I use on the drawing will show the contact in its "shelf state." It does not matter that that particular contact will really be in the other state for 99.9% of its operational life. Is that consistent with how you like to do it?

[charlie b]

So the question is when dealing with electrical engineers, for those who do; do you question them when there is a problem or just play dumb and do what they specify?
If I am the one you are dealing with, I want to know if something is not right. Don't do what you know to be wrong, just because there is an engineer's name on the drawing. Don't play dumb; the client that we share (i.e., the owner) deserves to have it done right.

But I do not want you to "fix my mistake." That is because I might have designed something that way on purpose. It might not be wrong, but rather just different than you are accustomed to see. So let's talk about it, let's do that politely, and let's not start off by assigning blame.

[ivsenroute]

Hm.... how about the electricians who decided to rewire 500+ pushbuttons in the field where the only thing need to be changed an incorrectly configured I/O status? Then they went around to spread the news how badly the EE's and ED's have screwed up.

I can definitely understand this. When I was trying to teach ladder logic for AB PLC5's to electricians in a plant it was like I was speaking Greek. The concept of an open switch allowing a function to happen (such as an open circuit on a photo eye allowing a motor to start) was very difficult for them to grasp.


We all have our issues and problems and communication is key as long as neither person communicating has an ego problem.

drbond24 said:
Engineers are regular people just like everyone else. Some are OK, some are really good, and some are jerks. It has less to do with the degree and more to do with what that person is like. To say the same thing a different way, if you are dealing with an engineer that is a jerk, that person is just a jerk that happens to be an engineer. There are lots of other jerks that happen to be lawyers, teachers, and yes, even electricians.

This is an A+++ statement

[quogueelectric]

I am not sure I understand this comment. But when I design a control scheme, the symbols I use on the drawing will show the contact in its "shelf state." It does not matter that that particular contact will really be in the other state for 99.9% of its operational life. Is that consistent with how you like to do it? The shelf state is of course with the contact on the shelf in a box that shows its state. However when you attatch this contact to a mechanical operator the way that it is attatched often tiimes changes the state of the BOXED contact to the oposite of how it was in the box.

This needs to be understood by the person assembling say a buildable hoa switch where if you attatch the contacts on one side of the operating switch the state will be opposite of if it was attatched to the other side of the operating switch with a ramping actuator.

Once the switch is assembled there is no boxed state as you have a custom built switch. Which came first the chicken or the egg??
It amazes me that some engineers are not able to put the one line drawing aside for a minute to believe that a mechanical condition can easily reverse the logic.

[quogueelectric]

If I am the one you are dealing with, I want to know if something is not right. Don't do what you know to be wrong, just because there is an engineer's name on the drawing. Don't play dumb; the client that we share (i.e., the owner) deserves to have it done right.

But I do not want you to "fix my mistake." That is because I might have designed something that way on purpose. It might not be wrong, but rather just different than you are accustomed to see. So let's talk about it, let's do that politely, and let's not start off by assigning blame.
I as an installer sometimes am forced to do what is wrong based on explicit instructions from an engineer which no one wants to contradict.
I was given the job of replacing a critical simple 2 pole C form relay which I believe was a part of a turbine trip schematic. The relay that found its way to me was a used relay probably 30 yrs old and missing insulating and guarding pieces .
I searched the plant and found a new relay with all of the parts. Now it was on a night shift so the ee went home to sleep for a few hours and get right back.
Because I was specifically instructed to install that particular relay I could not find a single soul to OK me to use the brand new relay. I tried everyone.
The safe thing for me to do was to install the old piece of junk which I did. The right thing to do was to install the new one but I did not have the sheepskin to make that call so I took the insulating parts and guards from the new one and used it to make the junk safer.
That night I walked away muttering.

[drbond24]

I as an installer sometimes am forced to do what is wrong based on explicit instructions from an engineer which no one wants to contradict.
I was given the job of replacing a critical simple 2 pole C form relay which I believe was a part of a turbine trip schematic. The relay that found its way to me was a used relay probably 30 yrs old and missing insulating and guarding pieces .
I searched the plant and found a new relay with all of the parts. Now it was on a night shift so the ee went home to sleep for a few hours and get right back.
Because I was specifically instructed to install that particular relay I could not find a single soul to OK me to use the brand new relay. I tried everyone.
The safe thing for me to do was to install the old piece of junk which I did. The right thing to do was to install the new one but I did not have the sheepskin to make that call so I took the insulating parts and guards from the new one and used it to make the junk safer.
That night I walked away muttering.

I'm not sure about this one. If the safe thing to do was to install the old junk, why did you go looking for a new one in the first place?

Perhaps you should have just installed what you were given in the first place and moved on? I can understand if you were worried about it failing and you getting the blame, but if everyone was so certain that the engineer wanted that particular piece of junk installed, it would would be pretty obvious who was to blame.

I'm just making observations based on your story. Please don't take it personally. As an engineer, I've worked with a lot of other engineers that were of the worst kind; the kind that you guys are complaining about. I know thery're out there. My point is that they are NOT all that way, and you should be careful not to judge the ones you don't know by the ones you do know. All of us are unique, just like everyone else (re-phrasing someone's signature there...don't remember who it is.)

Looks like the worst thing this engineer did was work day shift. Sorry, most of us do that. :D

[charlietuna]

We were installing a change in a Smoke Evacuation System on an existing 40 story office building concerning providing additional emergency power. In the Engineering calculations they did not consider the fans operating on the floor below and above the floor of incidence! As we were installing some sub feeds we questioned this to the Engineer handling this job for the building owners. His remarks were something like this "i'll put it on the paper-you just install it!" When the system was installed and tested-these feeder breakers tripped on overload in the presence of the Fire Marshall ! We had already made plans for an alternate emergency power feed and had properly sized breakers in place to re-feed the system. The Fire Marshall wanted immeadiate action since the building was fully occupied and operational. The engineer of record was there for the test and refused to admit his error, but agreed to use our solution. Additional work was required, which he authorized and said he would approach the building owners for about $26,000 in added funds. Well, after a few months, we contacted him and he stalled us again and again! Three months later he said he couldn't get the building owner to approve the added funds and wanted us to accept additional work from his firm in payment for this $26,000. . My company always had more work than we could handle and i told him i wanted to get payed for the work he authorized !! Ended up i had to take him to court to get payed! In court he had to admit he made a mistake and that he had authorize the presently installed operational system -- judge asked him if he had "ERRORS AND ADMISSION" insurance? He said "yes"! Judge said "PAY HIM!" It's hard to get an engineer to admit a mistake !!!

[drbond24]

It's hard to get an engineer to admit a mistake !!!

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You can't make a statement like that unless you know ALL of the engineers.

It is definitely true that it is hard to get SOME engineers to make a mistake. I've admitted to at least two mistakes in this forum in the last two days. I'm not like this guy you dealt with, and I don't like being categorized with him just because we have the same degree.

If I knew a lazy, dishonest, good-for-nothing electrician and I started making all-encompassing statements about all electricians based on my bad experiences with him, you guys would be throwing a fit! I don't do that, I wouldn't do that, and I would appreciate the same in return.


As a side note, why am I the only engineer defending myself here? Speak up, ladies and gentlemen!!!


(My next step is going to be starting a thread entitled "Electricians, Electrical Contractors, and pains in my neck." :D ;))

[barclayd]

As a side note, why am I the only engineer defending myself here? Speak up, ladies and gentlemen!!!




I thought it was only for Engineers who made mistakes.

db

[drbond24]

I thought it was only for Engineers who made mistakes.

db

Hahaha! That caught me off guard. I'm pretty sure the guy sitting next to me thinks I'm a retard right now for the way I start laughing out loud all of a sudden.

[zog]

As a side note, why am I the only engineer defending myself here? Speak up, ladies and gentlemen!!!



Having too much fun reading your posts.

[petersonra]

The shelf state is of course with the contact on the shelf in a box that shows its state. However when you attatch this contact to a mechanical operator the way that it is attatched often tiimes changes the state of the BOXED contact to the oposite of how it was in the box.

This needs to be understood by the person assembling say a buildable hoa switch where if you attatch the contacts on one side of the operating switch the state will be opposite of if it was attatched to the other side of the operating switch with a ramping actuator.

Once the switch is assembled there is no boxed state as you have a custom built switch. Which came first the chicken or the egg??
It amazes me that some engineers are not able to put the one line drawing aside for a minute to believe that a mechanical condition can easily reverse the logic.

For such things most control drawings will have a contact chart that shows what circuits are closed when the selector is in a particular position. My drawings certainly do. I am not going to waste time trying to figure out which side is A and B on the operator and how a particular cam operates.

However, if I show wires going to the NO and Common terminals of a switch, thats where I expect them to be landed. Not to the contact that happens to be open when the thing is installed.

[Cold Fusion]

As a side note, why am I the only engineer defending myself here? Speak up, ladies and gentlemen!!!
I'm not in it because I don't feel any need to defend myself. Near as I can tell, you don't need to either.

And the ones that should be defending their actions - won't. After all, "they know they are right"

Another inconsequential tought: Do you really think that anything you have said has caused anyone to reconsider their thinking? I'm thinking those that got it already had it figured out. Those that didn't get it ....

cf

[LarryFine]

The shelf state is of course with the contact on the shelf in a box that shows its state. However when you attatch this contact to a mechanical operator the way that it is attatched often tiimes changes the state of the BOXED contact to the oposite of how it was in the box.

This needs to be understood by the person assembling say a buildable hoa switch where if you attatch the contacts on one side of the operating switch the state will be opposite of if it was attatched to the other side of the operating switch with a ramping actuator.

Once the switch is assembled there is no boxed state as you have a custom built switch. Which came first the chicken or the egg??
It amazes me that some engineers are not able to put the one line drawing aside for a minute to believe that a mechanical condition can easily reverse the logic.
There's a big difference between a contactor with the contacts shown as in the de-energized state, and a switch or contact set attached to a mechanical device with the contacts shown in the 'normal' state, whatever that is.

I would expect an as-built or as-wired schematic or diagram for any field-assembled equipment. Whether any given contact set should be shown as open or closed needs to have the 'normal' state of the mechanism clearly defined.

To me, electrical diagrams are just like any language. The writer must be concise with both the text and punctuation in order that the reader be able to mentally paint the same mental image the writer was trying to describe.

[ce2two]

Just for your information cal-trans has civil engineers inspecting traffic signals, cameras , new nodes for communications etc ,etc ,they refuse to admit there wrong (very common )...civil not electrical engineers (what) that's right ...Remember respect is earned , never let an engineer talk down to you ..otherwise game on ...I could carless how many years a person says they have, in what ever disipline it is ,you must prove your self..your only as good as the last job?

[sandsnow]

The one and only thing that sealing a document conveys is the assertion that the work was done by, or under the supervision of, the person applying the seal. That does not, by itself, require anyone to accept anything. The question of whether an inspector must accept a document that is sealed by an engineer is one of local laws.

Let me offer a counter example. Suppose I wanted to fill a conduit with wires of several sizes. Suppose that if all the wires were of the largest size, then number of wires would be over the limits shown in the appropriate Annex C table. Suppose I performed a calculation using the individual areas of each conductor, and was able to demonstate that the total area was less than 40% of the internal area of the conduit. Suppose that I signed and sealed that calculation, and included it in the package I sent for your approval. Would you feel compelled to accept my calculation, or would you reject the package on the basis that the set of wire sizes in my design does not appear in Annex C?

The wet stamp and wet signature we require here would be irrelevant. You either followed the Code rules on sizing or you did not.

I've never questioned an engineers design when it is outside the scope of the Code. If he wants to put one circuit in an individual office or three circuits, that is irrelavant to me.

On many occasions I have wrote corrections for Code violations to engineers whether it be in the field or in plan check. Sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm wrong. I've only dealt with two firms that have been indignant to anything I say. I have a good working relationship with all (about a dozen regularly) the EE firms I deal with.

I do point out when I know things will not work or may be a problem for the electrician. One example would be a long 100amp run upsized to 1/0 cu parallel. The plans show this directly to 100 amp rated devices at both ends. A junction box would be nice to make it easier for the electrician to transition to #2 cu, but it's not really my problem nor would I withold plan approval for it. Most EE are receptive to it.

I strive to be professional in my dealings.

[charlie b]

However when you attatch this contact to a mechanical operator the way that it is attatched often tiimes changes the state of the BOXED contact to the oposite of how it was in the box.
If my design calls for use of such a device, then my plans will show (perhaps by way of a table, perhaps by way of a note) the position I want the contact be be in, when the mechanical equipment is in a given condition. If, for example, a contact is to be open when tank water level is within its normal range, and if it is to close when tank water level is low, you will see something on my drawing that makes that clear.

[charlie b]

I as an installer sometimes am forced to do what is wrong based on explicit instructions from an engineer which no one wants to contradict.
That is regretable. You won't get that from me. If it were within my power to apologize on behalf of the engineering profession for those among us who behave in that way, I would be glad to do so.

[charlie b]

. . . judge asked him if he had "ERRORS AND ADMISSION" insurance?
I usually disregard typographical errors and the occasional incorrect usage of words. But I can't let this one go. The term is, "Errors and Omissions."

[LarryFine]

If my design calls for use of such a device, then my plans will show (perhaps by way of a table, perhaps by way of a note) the position I want the contact be be in, when the mechanical equipment is in a given condition. If, for example, a contact is to be open when tank water level is within its normal range, and if it is to close when tank water level is low, you will see something on my drawing that makes that clear. Didn't I just say that? :D

If it were within my power to apologize on behalf of the engineering profession for those among us who behave in that way, I would be glad to do so. Oh, go ahead, give it a try. :smile:

[charlie b]

Would you feel compelled to accept my calculation, or would you reject the package on the basis that the set of wire sizes in my design does not appear in Annex C?The wet stamp and wet signature we require here would be irrelevant. You either followed the Code rules on sizing or you did not.
I don't think you quite caught my point, Larry. In my example, the actual code requirement was the 40% fill. We know that if we follow Annex C, we will have no problem with conduit fill. I was talking about something that was within the scope of the code, but that could be handled in a way that is not explicitly described in the code.

The notion I was getting at was this: I want to put six wires in a conduit. There are three of the smaller size, and three of a larger size. Looking at the applicable table in Annex C, I learn that only five wires of the larger size will fit. But I perform a calculation and show that three large wires and three small wires are still within the 40% limit. That process is not described in the code, but the code requirement (40% fill) is met.

[sandsnow]

That process is not described in the code, but the code requirement (40% fill) is met.

As long as you prove 40%, your good to go. Stamp or no stamp.

If you're asking if I would check the math, then yes I would.

Just thought of something else. Some EE's will stamp anything. We had an EE who stamped an electrical room design with workspace dimensioned as clearly wrong.

[ivsenroute]

If my design calls for use of such a device, then my plans will show (perhaps by way of a table, perhaps by way of a note) the position I want the contact be be in, when the mechanical equipment is in a given condition. If, for example, a contact is to be open when tank water level is within its normal range, and if it is to close when tank water level is low, you will see something on my drawing that makes that clear.

This is what I have always worked with and expected. We always need switch positions clarified depending on how they are installed and under what conditions.

[hardworkingstiff]

I guess I've been lucky.

I can't remember ever having to deal with an engineer that wouldn't take the time to explain what he/she was trying to attain. It's my job to understand what has been put on the plans. Sometimes it may be confusing to me, but I've always had the engineer take the time to help me understand. My job is to install the job per the plans. If there is a code violation, I bring it up, and it gets resolved.

I guess I've been lucky.

[MJJBEE]

I guess I've been lucky.

I can't remember ever having to deal with an engineer that wouldn't take the time to explain what he/she was trying to attain. It's my job to understand what has been put on the plans. Sometimes it may be confusing to me, but I've always had the engineer take the time to help me understand. My job is to install the job per the plans. If there is a code violation, I bring it up, and it gets resolved.

I guess I've been lucky.

I would hope this is the rule rather then lucky. I know that there are engineers that are bad I also know I have had installers who have no knowledge of what they were doing. The most usual problems with my designs are when installers don't know what I'm trying to do and are trying to save me money. Every installer I work with knows that if they come to ask me a question I will try to explain it and if they have better idea I will steal it and put it on paper in ASAP. I like to remember that we are all human and make mistakes.

On another note as a engineer a lot of the Foreman who I work with are the last people I want to piss off they can make your life very hard or make you look like a genius. I appreciate the fact that sometimes you save my bacon with a simple question and thanks for all your help.

[quogueelectric]

I'm not sure about this one. If the safe thing to do was to install the old junk, why did you go looking for a new one in the first place?

Perhaps you should have just installed what you were given in the first place and moved on? I can understand if you were worried about it failing and you getting the blame, but if everyone was so certain that the engineer wanted that particular piece of junk installed, it would would be pretty obvious who was to blame.

I'm just making observations based on your story. Please don't take it personally. As an engineer, I've worked with a lot of other engineers that were of the worst kind; the kind that you guys are complaining about. I know thery're out there. My point is that they are NOT all that way, and you should be careful not to judge the ones you don't know by the ones you do know. All of us are unique, just like everyone else (re-phrasing someone's signature there...don't remember who it is.)

Looks like the worst thing this engineer did was work day shift. Sorry, most of us do that. :D
Because it was a rag tag old pos relay and it was missing parts AND it was for the turbine trip. I did my job but under protest and believe me EVERYONE heard about it. I dont do crap work unless you force me to.

[quogueelectric]

There's a big difference between a contactor with the contacts shown as in the de-energized state, and a switch or contact set attached to a mechanical device with the contacts shown in the 'normal' state, whatever that is.

I would expect an as-built or as-wired schematic or diagram for any field-assembled equipment. Whether any given contact set should be shown as open or closed needs to have the 'normal' state of the mechanism clearly defined.

To me, electrical diagrams are just like any language. The writer must be concise with both the text and punctuation in order that the reader be able to mentally paint the same mental image the writer was trying to describe.
That is NOT a typo I wrote contact Not contactOR.

[drbond24]

I'm not in it because I don't feel any need to defend myself. Near as I can tell, you don't need to either.

And the ones that should be defending their actions - won't. After all, "they know they are right"

Another inconsequential tought: Do you really think that anything you have said has caused anyone to reconsider their thinking? I'm thinking those that got it already had it figured out. Those that didn't get it ....

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It made me feel better. :smile:

[charlietuna]

Now i must admit--many years ago--late sixties--told you many years ago!!! Was working on the EASTERN AIRLINES engine test cell for there new plane, the L-1011 (at the time). There ENGINEER somehow missed an entire room that was to house a high pressure air compressor and wasn't discovered until late in the job ! It became a rush for all the trades create this room and all it's associated equipment. He had a brass plaque mounted on the air compressor and on the backside of the door stating that "THIS ROOM AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT PAID FOR BY " " ENGINEERING FIRM DUE TO THEIR MISTAKE". A dying breed for sure ! But i guess that why he was Eastern's Engineer too!

[Cold Fusion]

(cut)and if they have better idea I will steal it and put it on paper in ASAP. (cut)
Absolutely. A good engineer is a good thief (of ideas). And it isn't plagarism if you give credit - I always give credit.

(cut)On another note as a engineer a lot of the Foreman who I work with are the last people I want to piss off they can make your life very hard or make you look like a genius. I appreciate the fact that sometimes you save my bacon with a simple question and thanks for all your help.
Another true statement. To mildly mis-quote (paraphrase?) Ben Franklin, "If we do not hang together, we shall surely hang separately."

It takes all of us to make the job comes out good. I know that, and I do my best to make sure the contractors know I know that

(Define "good job": On time, in budget, meet spec, we all make a profit.)

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[drbond24]

This thread is getting a little better.

Now, I think we all just need a big group hug.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh84/bonddr24/2BearsHug.jpg

[Cold Fusion]

(cut) Now, I think we all just need a big group hug.(cut)

I'm an engineer. On a good day my social skills suck. After HR gets done with one of their Myers-Briggs, touchy-feeley sessions, I have to go to the shop and get the smile pasted on my face chemically removed.

Don't make me come find you.:roll:

Okay, okay, I don't do that sort of thing my self (too much of a wimp) - but If got a couple of techs I can call.:roll::roll:

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