Letter from the BBB...

[zappy]

I recived a complaint from a customer.He is not happy that i charged him for 2 1/2 hrs. and the problem is not fixed.I posted about this job a couple of days ago.I was troubleshooting the guy's fart fan,light over the toilet,light over the sink and a outlet.I explained to him this would be a hourly charge and i didn't know how long it would take.I admit it doesn't feel right charging somebody when i haven't fixed the problem.He wants me to just charge him for one hour and refund the rest,and he'll never call me again.When he told me to stop because of the time it was taking,he said how can i charge him when you haven't fixed it, i explained that you can't afford me to keep looking for the problem,i will find the problem i just need more time.So i'm probley going to refund some of his money back and figure out how to keep this from happening again.Any advice?Also how do you go about charging for troubleshooting?I'm thinking about making a troubleshooting contract that explains exactly that i am charging by the hour,and if you tell me to stop you will be charged even if the problem is not fixed.Thank you for your help.P.S plus this is a couple in there sixties so i really feel bad.I just want them to be happy,and to know that in no way was i trying to rip them off.

[480sparky]

If you get to a point that the customer asks you to stop before you've solved the problem, have them sign a release form stating such. If they are the one that stopped you, they cannot complain that you didn't find the problem.

[mdshunk]

I think you should be ashamed that it took you so long to not find a simple problem. Refund him in full.

[satcom]

We charge flat rate prices for troubleshooting, but you have have to know how to do it or you will loose your shirt, and if you know how to flat rate troubleshoot work you can make some nice money m many years ago we tried T&M for troubleshooting and nothing but prooblems, and customers left wondering how much it will cost, with up front pricing they know what it will cost before you move ahead.

[mdshunk]

Tuition is expensive, and not all customers are willing to pay for your schooling. There have been a couple times in the past (thankfully, far in the past :D) where a customer has tried to cut me off due to time. This is what I did... I tell them, "Okay, the clock stops now, but this is getting a little personal for me. Would you mind if I kept troubleshooting this on my time? We'll start the clock again after I find the problem, so I can fix it. That will be okay, won't it?".

I'm not saying this is a good approach, but it is one that I've used successfully in the past.

[celtic]

I think you should be ashamed that it took you so long to not find a simple problem. Refund him in full.

:-?

I think we need to know the "W"'s on the situation before the OP is fed to the wolves.

Zappy...spill the W's:
What was the problem?
Why did it take so long?
Etc
Etc
Etc

[celtic]

We charge flat rate prices for troubleshooting, but you have have to know how to do it or you will loose your shirt, .....


How do find a buried JB in a multi-family home?

[480sparky]

How do find a buried JB in a multi-family home?

Who says the splice is in a box?

[celtic]

Who says the splice is in a box?

Ok...let's re-phrase.

Where is the break in the wire:
- in an accessible JB/device box,
- in a buried JB,
- in a mysterious flying splice the result of a previous HO's act of "spontaneous construction"?


How much and how long to find and fix/repair?

[quogueelectric]

Should you be able to charge for complete and udder failure??

[480sparky]

....

How much and how long to find and fix/repair?

I'm gonna be like the cable guy on this one..... sometime between 5 minutes and next July.

[celtic]

I'm gonna be like the cable guy on this one..... sometime between 5 minutes and next July.

LMAO.....good one :grin:

[480sparky]

LMAO.....good one :grin:

But that's my point...... there's no way to know how long it will take to fix a mysterious problem. And if it's intermittent, even longer.

I've found open circuits within 30 seconds of walking in the front door. Sometimes I've spend half a day tracking down a j-box buried in the insulation in the attic.

[celtic]

But that's my point......

...and that is a fine point too!

When I first came on this board, I had a troubleshooting issue [ it's buried in the archives now I guess...couldn't find it ]...it all boiled down to option C ~ the flying splice due to spontaneous construction and many dollars.

A couple of weeks ago, I had another troubleshooting call.
3 hours...found, fixed, done.
Different animal.

In the first case it was all T&M, the second flat rate.

You have to know your animal.

[480sparky]

.......You have to know your animal.

Unfortunately, we're like the blind men and the elephant sometimes..... until you find the problem, you don't know what it truly is. http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Emoticons/mw_hmmm.gif

And HOs are the worst source of information.

[tkb]

I wouldn't refund anything and dispute the complaint.
Just because he told you to stop and was too cheap to let you continue is no reason he should file a complaint.

Keep the money.

[celtic]

Unfortunately, we're like the blind men and the elephant sometimes..... until you find the problem, you don't know what it truly is. http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Emoticons/mw_hmmm.gif

And HOs are the worst source of information.

Very true.

In the first case, it was HO problem ~ they had cut the BX many years previously, and even though the HO was literally sitting under it...he couldn't remember it was there ...until we were about ready to rewire the 3rd floor.
This was an older home[50+] and "problems" were anticipated [but not to this degree] on my part.

The last one was in a home about 30+/- yrs old.
That boiled down to a simple CB swap out.

[satcom]

How do find a buried JB in a multi-family home?

The reason we have 5 rate levels for troubleshoot, and we have the customer approve before we go to the next level, with a buried JB you could be talking a good days work, so with a $XXX aproval for a days work we will proceed,

Funny, we priced one for a days work, and sure eniough a J bos was in the cement wall covered, easy to find with isolation and tone generators, but if you you don't have the experience and tool, don't flat rate it.

[quogueelectric]

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

[nafis]

Just my opinion

You need to ask yourself why you are in business. Is it Money or to be a quality service provider with reasonable service fees. it should not take you more than one hour to find and fix the problem . about two years ago I had the same problem with a different scenario . got a call to install some light fixtures in a very old house. the folks were old, as well as the house . in the family room the folks had an existing medallion with layers of paint probably from the age of my Egyptian ancestors . the wife was very hard to deal with . anyway I verbally explained to the husband before I did any work that it is an old medallion and the new light canopy is smaller than the old one so as a result some paint might come off making it necessary to repaint around the new canopy. he said I understand, go ahead and do it so I proceeded to complete the work .i got it done and received payment. about an hour later I received a call from the person who referred this customer saying I broke the medallion. I called the customer and spoke with the wife and told her that I explained every thing to her husband and he said he will paint around the canopy . anyway, long story short I ended up giving them what marc suggested in the above post:

Thank you and good luck

[alfiesauce]

I agree with Marc.
The homeowner is not paying you to learn on the job. You are always learning yadda yadda yadda, but you can't expect to get paid full rate for all of your learning time... imo.

The other day I had a lady who I couldn't fix one of two things that she wanted me to fix. The first task was easy and took about 40 minutes. I figured I would attempt the second one. I gave it my best shot and couldn't find the problem after 40 minutes of messing around.
I ended up billing her a service call- the one hour minimum she was told to expect when she called us. That means I ended up eating 20 minutes of time, and because I'm who I am I ate a 1/2 hour off my time card.
She was sad I couldn't fix it for her, but she was very happy about the billing solution and because of that will probably be a repeat customer, or atleast be worth some word of mouth advertising because of it.

[nafis]

wondering what was the 2nd problom you could nt fix...

[jrannis]

Tuition is expensive, and not all customers are willing to pay for your schooling. There have been a couple times in the past (thankfully, far in the past :D) where a customer has tried to cut me off due to time. This is what I did... I tell them, "Okay, the clock stops now, but this is getting a little personal for me. Would you mind if I kept troubleshooting this on my time? We'll start the clock again after I find the problem, so I can fix it. That will be okay, won't it?".

I'm not saying this is a good approach, but it is one that I've used successfully in the past.


When I first started out on a service truck, I did the "stop the clock" trick too. I worked out about even for me when the customer gave me a $50 tip.
For some reason,maybe out of guilt or something, I would have rather had the time on the ticket and just had them pay the regular hourly rate.

[jeremysterling]

Troubleshooting can be challenging, rewarding, demanding, and frustrating. I hate that someone else, electrician or otherwise, can solve and fix any problem after I gave up. My ego has been so deflated after some of these, I was ready to give up the trade. The shame so unbearable, I refused my wage.

Sometimes the HO can help, sometimes the apprentice is the second set of eyes you need, sometimes a call to the boss is something he has seen before, sometimes a post on a forum is an objective step back with two steps forward.

I will always cherish the memories of solving some of these riddles. I was an overhead crane technician for five years and solved some really challenging control and operation problems, both electrical and mechanical. Yet my top fix was as a young maintenance electrician at a dirty fab-shop/rig-up yard. There was a large hydraulic band saw for cutting very large steel beams, that exhibited an intermittent function problem. The operator would press the start button, sometimes it would work, sometimes not. The manufacturer's tech, two EC's, several mechanics and our small but courageous maintenance dept could not solve this problem. Nearly six months had passed when I finally found it. A "vestigal" (i.e. unused but wired in) timer/counter with a worn set of contacts. I bypassed the counter and gave a whoop heard through the shop.:grin:

I like Marc's analogy of customer paying for the tuition.

OP, Please dispute the BBB complaint. Only you know if the money is yours.:smile:

[iwire]

Should you be able to charge for complete and udder failure??

Doctors, and Lawyers do.

[jeremysterling]

Should you be able to charge for complete and udder failure??

Doctors, and Lawyers do.

I didn't know doctors and lawyers had udders, I though that was a dairy part.

Hey, that's OK, I've been on some troublecalls that I milked like cereal.

[iwire]

I didn't know doctors and lawyers had udders, I though that was a dairy part.

Regardless of the cows joke the point remains that many professions charge for the time, not the result.

[wbalsam1]

Tuition is expensive, and not all customers are willing to pay for your schooling. There have been a couple times in the past (thankfully, far in the past :D) where a customer has tried to cut me off due to time. This is what I did... I tell them, "Okay, the clock stops now, but this is getting a little personal for me. Would you mind if I kept troubleshooting this on my time? We'll start the clock again after I find the problem, so I can fix it. That will be okay, won't it?".

I'm not saying this is a good approach, but it is one that I've used successfully in the past.

This seems to be an excellent business model to me. Fair all the way around.


Should you be able to charge for complete and udder failure??
Only if you have enough "pull"! :grin:

[Pierre C Belarge]

As Bob has mentioned, lawyers and doctors (who both charge for unsolved cases and ailments ), how about a failed surgery for 10's of thousands of dollars, and the same for a failed case by a lawyer? These happen every day all over the country.

When an EC has a written policy for troubleshooting, these kind of problems are not as prevalent. I know it sounds like it is hard to institute, it is not.
One other component to a successful plan is the proper education for the troubleshooter, combined with the written plan.

Either institute a written plan or eat the money.

[steelersman]

I think you should be ashamed that it took you so long to not find a simple problem. Refund him in full.
Marc you should just tell him your honest opinion. Stop sugar coating it. :)

[steelersman]

How do find a buried JB in a multi-family home?
you use a JB finder. Kinda like a stud finder but much more fancier and expensive.

[celtic]

Tuition is expensive, and not all customers are willing to pay for your schooling.

Who pays for helpers/apprentices?

OJT comes to mind...

[jeremysterling]

Should you be able to charge for complete and udder failure??

True Story:

Electrician was troubleshooting the dairy's sour milk. The electrician discovered stray voltage and objectionable current at the milking machine chassis causing the cow to experience unpleasant sensations at the sensitive teats of the mammary organ. And, YES, he charged the dairy for udder failure.

Only if you have enough "pull"! :grin:

[bradleyelectric]

you use a JB finder. Kinda like a stud finder but much more fancier and expensive.

go you have a link for this?

[celtic]

go you have a link for this?

This might help:
http://www.worth1000.com/entries/311500/311642XDfc_w.jpg


The new personal electric hammer....makes a great stocking stuffer, too!

[bradleyelectric]

the d is 2 keys from the g.

[jeremysterling]

the d is 2 keys from the g.

unless sung in the key of e#

[electricguy61]

Tuition is expensive, and not all customers are willing to pay for your schooling. There have been a couple times in the past (thankfully, far in the past :D) where a customer has tried to cut me off due to time. This is what I did... I tell them, "Okay, the clock stops now, but this is getting a little personal for me. Would you mind if I kept troubleshooting this on my time? We'll start the clock again after I find the problem, so I can fix it. That will be okay, won't it?".

I'm not saying this is a good approach, but it is one that I've used successfully in the past.

That's good customer service! It pays off in the end, doesn't it Marc.

In these times when new construction is so slow, we're still real busy. We've never been too busy to take small service calls, we've learned to be willing to take a small loss to maintain good customer relations, and most importantly, we've learned to admit our mistakes or short comings. Most customers appreciate honesty instead of trying to cover up or blaming someone or something else. We're still getting service calls when many other contractors are starving for work.

[TwinCitySparky]

Tuition is expensive, and not all customers are willing to pay for your schooling. There have been a couple times in the past (thankfully, far in the past :D) where a customer has tried to cut me off due to time. This is what I did... I tell them, "Okay, the clock stops now, but this is getting a little personal for me. Would you mind if I kept troubleshooting this on my time? We'll start the clock again after I find the problem, so I can fix it. That will be okay, won't it?".

I'm not saying this is a good approach, but it is one that I've used successfully in the past.

Next time I stop in at my local Chevy dealership, and my mechanic sais he still cant pinpoint that "come and go" ghost issue thats causing my van engine to hesitate, I'm going to inform him that this is what my electrician does for me when he cant find the problem and I definetly expect the same from them.

That should go over like a fart in church.

[TwinCitySparky]

Who pays for helpers/apprentices?

OJT comes to mind...



This makes me think of my first year apprenticing on a resturant job. My boss walks into the room and sees me wrestling with some conduit and sais: Lets not allow the customer to think that this is a classroom and we are learning on his time. I gave him the OK nod and tried to look like I really knew what I was doing, but all I could think is: Dang it! This IS a classroom and I AM learning on thier buck!

How do you "mind over matter" that one... :-?

[480sparky]

......How do you "mind over matter" that one... :-?


Most commercial & industrial jobs have more than one electrician on site, and a new restaurant may well have 6-8 at any given time. Most GCs and owners know that not every one of them is going to be a JW-level mechanic, and are aware that there will be noobies/cubbies/apprentices on the job learning the trade. They are also aware that they're not paying for them at the same rate as a top-notch JW. Because GCs and owners are very well aware of different pay rates for different skill levels, they accept this.

Homeowners, however, are far removed from the realities of running a business. Coupled with the fact that usually it's just one electrician showing up in a company truck, they expect that person to know what they're doing.

[realolman]

This makes me think of my first year apprenticing on a resturant job. My boss walks into the room and sees me wrestling with some conduit and sais: Lets not allow the customer to think that this is a classroom and we are learning on his time. I gave him the OK nod and tried to look like I really knew what I was doing, but all I could think is: Dang it! This IS a classroom and I AM learning on thier buck!

How do you "mind over matter" that one... :-?
You were learning on your employer's buck and he was allowing you to learn on the restaurant's buck. He no doubt paid you less than he paid someone more experienced.

I am sure he was charging them a reduced rate for your services?:wink:

[steelersman]

go you have a link for this?
just a joke. I do not know of any JB finders, but now that I've said that I'm sure someone will come up with a link (Marc perhaps) and I will be shocked. :)

[growler]

I recived a complaint from a customer.He is not happy that i charged him for 2 1/2 hrs. P.S plus this is a couple in there sixties so i really feel bad.I just want them to be happy,and to know that in no way was i trying to rip them off.


Do you know if the problem has been fixed by another contractor and how long it took for them to do it?

It's one thing for a homeowner to think that a job is taking to long but then again what are they comparing it to.

If I trouble-shoot a problem for 2 1/2 hours that someone else can find in an hour or less then I will be more than happy to refund their money ( every penny of it ). This has not happened yet.

Tell the homeowner to get the problem repaired and see how long and how much it cost. This will let you know if you are just learning on their time or if this really was just a hard one to trouble-shoot.

[480sparky]

just a joke. I do not know of any JB finders, but now that I've said that I'm sure someone will come up with a link (Marc perhaps) and I will be shocked. :)

No it isn't. They actually make such a thing (http://www.infraredsys.com/CairnsFireCamera.html). You can see right through the walls and spot a jbox, as long as the circuit has enough current flow.

[steelersman]

No it isn't. They actually make such a thing (http://www.infraredsys.com/CairnsFireCamera.html). You can see right through the walls and spot a jbox, as long as the circuit has enough current flow.
yeah enough current to damn near catch the conductors on fire. I'm sure that thing is cheap and sold at all electrical supply houses. :) Might as well use a tone generator.

[iwire]

The company I work for has a thermal imaging camera, you can do a lot with it. It makes a great stud finder for $45K.:D

[480sparky]

The company I work for has a thermal imaging camera, you can do a lot with it. It makes a great stud finder for $45K.:D

You can't find ducts with it?

[480sparky]

Do you know if the problem has been fixed by another contractor and how long it took for them to do it?

It's one thing for a homeowner to think that a job is taking to long but then again what are they comparing it to.

If I trouble-shoot a problem for 2 1/2 hours that someone else can find in an hour or less then I will be more than happy to refund their money ( every penny of it ). This has not happened yet.

Tell the homeowner to get the problem repaired and see how long and how much it cost. This will let you know if you are just learning on their time or if this really was just a hard one to trouble-shoot.

Also, what did the HO tell the next guy about what you did? Did he have to start from scratch, like you did, or did the HO tell him everything you had already checked, which would have given him a 'head start' on locating the problem?

[bikeindy]

Doctors, and Lawyers do.

But they are "practicing" law and Medicine we already know our jobs and I am with Marc on this one I think the problem should have been found in an hour or less.

[Fulthrotl]

You can't find ducts with it?

for that, you use the directional microphone, and listen for the "quack".

[220/221]

I am with Marc on this one I think the problem should have been found in an hour or less.

If all the wiring is stock it wouldn't be an issue.

I have had a couple recently that took longer than that.

Both were residential, romex, no attic access.

Both were refed instead of repaired because I couldn't locate the mystery splice without cutting out drywall.

First one was ALL stock wiring circa 1980. It took over an hour to take apart all 15 boxes and determine whwe the fault was. It took a couple more hours to re feed it and I still didn't get to see the fault.

Second one was last Friday. Walking in the door I knew that a handyman had installed the additional kitchen lighting/electrical. I found there was an open neutral to one undercabinet light and the built in microwave.

It took about an hour to eliminate all jb's as the source. I had to remove the built in microwave to make a last ditch effort to avoid cutting drywall. I did find an open splice in the wall (old vent hood to micro recep) but it was not the source. There was however a dedicated micro circuit abandoned in a jb behind the micro so I hooked it up, backfed the UC light and abandoned the original feed.

Again, I never got to see the problem but I KNOW that the handyman spliced into the circuit and buried it in the ceiling.


An hour goes by quickly when you spend half of it acratching your head.

[mdshunk]

Communication is important when troubleshooting drags on. Keep the customer updated if they seem antsy. Tell them what you've eliminated, tell them where it might still be, like "Between here and here", and so fourth. Keep them in the loop, and make them aware of your progress. Turn things around and use the fact that time is passing by to build value in your hard work. Drag out fancy gadgets, and open the cases as if you're displaying a new Rolex. Use the instrument as if you're handling a Faberge egg. Arrange your tools and test equipment neatly when you're not using them in your hand. Resist the urge to badmouth whoever did what you're finding. Could be their favorite uncle Billy or something like that.

[Fulthrotl]

But they are "practicing" law and Medicine we already know our jobs and I am with Marc on this one I think the problem should have been found in an hour or less.

it doesn't always work like that.

i did control wiring on a 75' tall high bay door, that had it's upper track
extended out on the bottom of a crane door, so the 500 ton bridge crane
could go outside the building into a canopy area.

everything interlocked eleventeen different ways, to prevent the lower
door from being extended out onto the crane door unless the dogs
on the crane door were fully down in the locked position.

the first weekend the customer used the door, they almost dropped the
75' tall high bay doors, by running them out when the crane door was
unlocked.

monday morning, there were attorneys present, and i, and a third party
who was there to keep me honest, went on a wire by wire survey of the
controls to find where i screwed up. it took more than an hour, it took
three days, for a very simple reason.

i had not made any mistakes... at the end of the third day, we were
up in the basket at 75', looking inside a pull box, checking wires, and 20'
away was a limit switch with a 12" whisker, to pick up when the crane
door locks were fully engaged, securing the door.

and a pigeon flew in the door, and landed on the 12" whisker, causing a
false closure. the other guy and i just looked at one another, and i said
i was sure glad he was there, 'cause NOBODY would believe just one of
us coming down with that story, claiming what they saw.

there are now pigeon guards on the limit switches.

troubleshooting successfully requires communication with the customer,
explaining exactly what i am doing, and why the amount of time is
unknown... i usually explain that the problem will be in the LAST place
i look, and if they can tell me where that is right now, we can be done
in 15 minutes.

that explanation seems to work well for me.

randy

[Fulthrotl]

Resist the urge to badmouth whoever did what you're finding. Could be their favorite uncle Billy or something like that.

or them personally..... i've learned this one the hard way :-(
it does wonders for eliminating customer rapport.

[aline]

I used this tool to find;
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/brucepri/AT-2005.jpg

Basement bedroom had lost power to just the receptacles. Receptacles showed an open neutral. The light and smoke detector were working fine. Found this buried j-box two rooms away in the basement family room ceiling. Had a loose neutral connection in it.
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/brucepri/Hidden-J-Box.jpg

Found a burned up splice in this underground cable feeding power to a water feature pump. It would work fine until it rained and saturated the ground. Then the breaker would trip.
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/brucepri/BadSplice3.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/brucepri/BadSplice1.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/brucepri/BadSplice2.jpg

[220/221]

a pigeon flew in the door, and landed on the 12" whisker

That's awesome! Did it fly in and land there while you were there or was this an assumtion because of pigeon poop?

[brian john]

Double post my aploogies

[brian john]

I think you should be ashamed that it took you so long to not find a simple problem. Refund him in full.

I agree with Marc, in the one or two situations where I was taking longer than it should take in my opinion I charged nothing I wanted to know why!

The area is so small with what 3 devices isolate and solve.

Oh an Zappy it is an EXHAUST FAN, could be your terminology made the customer question your skills. Be professional and you give a better presence to your customer.

[steelersman]

Double post my aploogies
what are aploogies? :)

[steelersman]

Oh an Zappy it is an EXHAUST FAN, could be your terminology made the customer question your skills. Be professional and you give a better presence to your customer.


that's right. As most know it's not for smell, but for steam and moisture. This seems confusing as most of the time the ductman installs them directly over the toilet but that's not what their true purpose is for. :)

[jaylectricity]

Oh an Zappy it is an EXHAUST FAN, could be your terminology made the customer question your skills. Be professional and you give a better presence to your customer.

Ha! When I read the original post I looked at my girlfriend and said, "For some reason, I cringe every time I hear somebody refer to it as a 'fart fan'"

And trust me, I'm one of the rudest, crudest unnecessarily foul mouth people I know.

[bradleyelectric]

just a joke. I do not know of any JB finders, but now that I've said that I'm sure someone will come up with a link (Marc perhaps) and I will be shocked. :)

I knew somebody would post some :)

http://www.infraredsys.com/CairnsFireCamera.html

http://www.tequipment.net/AmprobeAT-2005.asp

[alfiesauce]

wondering what was the 2nd problom you could nt fix...

A christmas light string that was all wrapped up in this crazy little craft kind of tree sprayed with fake snow on it.

[jaylectricity]

http://www.tequipment.net/AmprobeAT-2005.asp

Anybody have $1000 I can borrow?

[480sparky]

A christmas light string that was all wrapped up in this crazy little craft kind of tree sprayed with fake snow on it.

They wanted you to fix Christmas lights?!!?

[Dennis Alwon]

Ha! When I read the original post I looked at my girlfriend and said, "For some reason, I cringe every time I hear somebody refer to it as a 'fart fan'"

And trust me, I'm one of the rudest, crudest unnecessarily foul mouth people I know.

Real men don't cringe at the term Fart Fan-- they smile. :D

[jaylectricity]

Real men don't cringe at the term Fart Fan-- they smile. :D

Real men don't talk about what "real men" do.

8-)

[Dennis Alwon]

Real men don't talk about what "real men" do.

8-)

So where do you stand after that statement. :D

[jaylectricity]

So where do you stand after that statement. :D

Actually, I'm sitting down. Does that count?

[Dennis Alwon]

Actually, I'm sitting down. Does that count?
Depends on what you are sitting on. If you are sitting on a stand it might count.:smile:

[Rockyd]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyelectric
http://www.tequipment.net/AmprobeAT-2005.asp

Anybody have $1000 I can borrow?
__________________



Don't be stupid...ask for at least a million, if not a hundred million. Bail-outs need large cash amounts.

Get back to me about the discovery fee for this esoteric knowledge:)

[jaylectricity]

Depends on what you are sitting on. If you are sitting on a stand it might count.:smile:

Haha! You win, I can't beat that right now.

[brian john]

[QUOTE=bradleyelectric;964079]I knew somebody would post some :)

http://www.infraredsys.com/CairnsFireCamera.html

IR will not find JB unless there is a major issue with them and by that time you need to call the fire department.

[bradleyelectric]

I just reposted what others had posted in the disscussion as links. Good point though. Alines post looked like the best I've seen for the purpose.

[steelersman]

[QUOTE=bradleyelectric;964079]I knew somebody would post some :)

http://www.infraredsys.com/CairnsFireCamera.html

IR will not find JB unless there is a major issue with them and by that time you need to call the fire department.
yeah I didn't think that junk was any good for a JB finder.

[bradleyelectric]

[QUOTE=brian john;964218]
yeah I didn't think that junk was any good for a JB finder.

It might work if there was a serious problem. Or you could wait a while and do the rewire.

[ceb58]

I recived a complaint from a customer.He is not happy that i charged him for 2 1/2 hrs. and the problem is not fixed.I posted about this job a couple of days ago.I was troubleshooting the guy's fart fan,light over the toilet,light over the sink and a outlet.I explained to him this would be a hourly charge and i didn't know how long it would take.I admit it doesn't feel right charging somebody when i haven't fixed the problem.He wants me to just charge him for one hour and refund the rest,and he'll never call me again.When he told me to stop because of the time it was taking,he said how can i charge him when you haven't fixed it, i explained that you can't afford me to keep looking for the problem,i will find the problem i just need more time.So i'm probley going to refund some of his money back and figure out how to keep this from happening again.Any advice?Also how do you go about charging for troubleshooting?I'm thinking about making a troubleshooting contract that explains exactly that i am charging by the hour,and if you tell me to stop you will be charged even if the problem is not fixed.Thank you for your help.P.S plus this is a couple in there sixties so i really feel bad.I just want them to be happy,and to know that in no way was i trying to rip them off.

To get back on topic. The BBB has as about as many teeth as a 100 year old man. I would reply to them with the facts. Customer knew price per hour up front and some times trouble shooting is a time consuming process.And you were stopped by HO. With that said you will need, through experience, to improve your skills in trouble shooting. As said in the other thread you need to be familiar with wireing of the era the home was built, learn what questions to ask and put your self in the place of a hack "what can I do to make it work and get paid and run". These thing will help the trouble shooting easier.
As far as a refund let your concise be your guide. The people may be on a fixed income and felt that they were being ripped off. I am certainly not saying that is your case but that is what the HO may have thought was going on resulting in the letter from BBB.
Your idea about spelling out every thing in writing is a good one it gives you and the customer a clear understanding of what is going on.
We here can say you need to refund all of it because you are learning, or refund part of it. Why did you not find the problem and so on. You were the only one on the job, you were there not us. Who's to say what the outcome would have been. I,personally, am like Marc. I would have not stopped until I found the problem pay or not. It some times gets personal when you run into some of these problems. I will whip it before it whips me.

[alfiesauce]

They wanted you to fix Christmas lights?!!?

Yup...
Agreeing to take a look at them wasn't the smartest move on my part but, like I said, it was probably a good PR move if nothing else.

[bradleyelectric]

Yup...
Agreeing to take a look at them wasn't the smartest move on my part but, like I said, it was probably a good PR move if nothing else.

I'm not so sure since they claim you couldn't fix them.

[Fulthrotl]

That's awesome! Did it fly in and land there while you were there or was this an assumtion because of pigeon poop?

it came in and landed right there while we were watching....

[TwinCitySparky]

You were learning on your employer's buck and he was allowing you to learn on the restaurant's buck. He no doubt paid you less than he paid someone more experienced.

I am sure he was charging them a reduced rate for your services?:wink:

Ummm ok... Truth told, he is almost honest and is semi-sincere.

:cool:

[360Youth]

I agree with Marc.
The homeowner is not paying you to learn on the job. You are always learning yadda yadda yadda, but you can't expect to get paid full rate for all of your learning time... imo.

Who says anything about learning. I think you charge for your time accordingly. I have learned, the first thing I tell a customer is that fixing it is usually easy, finding it is the hard part. Not always the way it works out, but mostly true, and the customer understands that there will be time involved. Some here may be better at troubleshooting for various reasons, but if someone else digs a ditch faster than you should you stop charging at 3pm because so-and-so could be done by now.

Now, I have cut a customer a break because when I finally find a problem, maybe I feel like I should have found it earlier, but it all pretty much hit and miss unless it is a speciffic problem.

[360Youth]

Who says anything about learning.

That kinda came out wrong :smile:. What I mean is, who is to say that he is learning on the job and not just having trouble tracking it down. As I said at the end of my earlier post, if he finally finds it and gets to one of those "Doh!" moments, than I believe it is fair to cut him a break. And I also believe if I cannot find the problem after what I feel is sufficient time, than the customer should not be billed until I can find. If he hires me to find and fix, and I can't do it, than I am not doing my job.

[ITO]

I think you should be ashamed that it took you so long to not find a simple problem. Refund him in full.

Ditto...........

[macmikeman]

At no point in 9 pages have I seen the proper way to handle any residential troublshoot job in the first place. Step 1 identify problem. Step two- look for alternate new wiring path and figure up both price for new alternate wiring path and 45 minutes of troubleshooting original problem. Step 3- add those two costs together, then present a proposal to make the repair. Now you can fool around with the finding business for 45 minutes, and maybe get lucky or not, at which point you start running alternate wiring to re-feed or what ever it is that restores proper functioning of electrical system in that house. Customer has no grounds to complain- he has agreed and signed a proposal, and now he has his problem fixed.

[360Youth]

At no point in 9 pages have I seen the proper way to handle any residential troublshoot job in the first place. Step 1 identify problem. Step two- look for alternate new wiring path and figure up both price for new alternate wiring path and 45 minutes of troubleshooting original problem. Step 3- add those two costs together, then present a proposal to make the repair. Now you can fool around with the finding business for 45 minutes, and maybe get lucky or not, at which point you start running alternate wiring to re-feed or what ever it is that restores proper functioning of electrical system in that house. Customer has no grounds to complain- he has agreed and signed a proposal, and now he has his problem fixed.

That's one way. Replacing wire usually involves replacing drywall and paint also. They may not be the ECs problem, but it is an added cost to the HO. I see where you are coming from, but I would have to add the option of continuing to look for it at the HOs request, in that 2 more hours of looking and 30 minutes of repair may save him the agrivation of everything else.

[macmikeman]

That's one way. Replacing wire usually involves replacing drywall and paint also.

For me, there is hardly ever a drywall replacement issue.

[growler]

Now you can fool around with the finding business for 45 minutes, and maybe get lucky or not, at which point you start running alternate wiring to re-feed or what ever it is that restores proper functioning of electrical system in that house. Customer has no grounds to complain- he has agreed and signed a proposal, and now he has his problem fixed.


I don't like it, I don't like that idea one bit because the problem may not be solved. In many of these older homes the bathroom devices may be tied into the bedroom circuit. May times what you will find is a melted wire nut and burned wires in the light fixture junction box or in an attic junction box and this is just the first wire to burn into and open a circuit but a real potenial hazard still exist if you wire around the problem.

I am a firm believer that if you have a problem then you find the problem. You never just wire around it and possibly leave a fire hazard some place.
The fact that a few devices are not working may only be a symptom of the problem and not the real problem. Anyone can rig a fix but an electrician sould be able to find and correct the problem.

Once you find the problem then you will know if there was a potenial hazard. I have found big old flying splices in the walls where they were arcing and melting the tape. Sure only a couple of receptacles were not working but the real problem was a risk of fire. Until you find the problem you have no idea of what all is on this circuit or what condition the wiring is in.

[roger3829]

I don't like it, I don't like that idea one bit because the problem may not be solved. In many of these older homes the bathroom devices may be tied into the bedroom circuit. May times what you will find is a melted wire nut and burned wires in the light fixture junction box or in an attic junction box and this is just the first wire to burn into and open a circuit but a real potenial hazard still exist if you wire around the problem.

I am a firm believer that if you have a problem then you find the problem. You never just wire around it and possibly leave a fire hazard some place.
The fact that a few devices are not working may only be a symptom of the problem and not the real problem. Anyone can rig a fix but an electrician sould be able to find and correct the problem.

Once you find the problem then you will know if there was a potenial hazard. I have found big old flying splices in the walls where they were arcing and melting the tape. Sure only a couple of receptacles were not working but the real problem was a risk of fire. Until you find the problem you have no idea of what all is on this circuit or what condition the wiring is in.

I agree.

The problem must be found. Then, and only then can a solution to the problem be developed.

If you bypass the problem you are just looking for more problems done the road. If you re-feed a circuit, how can you be sure that you have eliminated the problem completly from the old circuit? What happens if you re-feed the circuit and connect it to phase "B" instead of phase "A" and the old problem corrects itself? Now the customer has a new more dangerous problem.

It's not your fault the wiring went bad. It is your responsibility to correct it. It is also impossible to determine what went wrong and why before you troubleshoot and find the problem. In my opinion, saying that ALL troubleshooting in residential work can be accomplished in 1 hours is an unrealistic statement. I have been in this field for over 30 years and would never say that I could find every problem inside of 1 hour.

[220/221]

I agree. The problem must be found. Then, and only then can a solution to the problem be developed.

I would have to agree also.

In the first case I presented, I found the problem but didn't actually see it. I eliminated the jumper from the circuit, clipped it at both ends and replaced it. It is 100% safe and will never be an issue. It still bothered me not being able to see it but I didn't lose any sleep.

The second scenario is different and I should not have left it. There is still a buried splice, likely an open splice in the ceiling. I disconnected the faulted part of the circuit to eliminate a load, but the splice still exists.

I did explain to the homeowner that drywall would have to be removed to find the splice but I am sure that he won't recall that or pass along the information when he sells tha house.

I will lose some sleep over that one.

[480sparky]

.....It's not your fault the wiring went bad. It is your responsibility to correct it. .....

Why is it his responsibility to correct it? He's been hired to correct it, then told not to. He has no responsibility after that. It's all the customers responsibility at that point.

If I were in that situation, I would simply have the customer sign a release form stating that they required me to stop before I had located the problem.

[growler]

Why is it his responsibility to correct it? He's been hired to correct it, then told not to. He has no responsibility after that. It's all the customers responsibility at that point.

I think that roger means that if you are hired to correct a problem then it's your responsibility to do so in a safe manner.

Naturally if the customer doesn't want to pay for your time then you shouldn't be responsible.

Just because a customer wants something done cheap doesn't give us a right to cut corners. If we do the work then it should be done right and safe.

[roger3829]

Why is it his responsibility to correct it? He's been hired to correct it, then told not to. He has no responsibility after that. It's all the customers responsibility at that point.

If I were in that situation, I would simply have the customer sign a release form stating that they required me to stop before I had located the problem.

Ok. What I meant was he didn't CAUSE the problem, he was only hired to CORRECT the problem. I wasn't trying to imply that he HAD to fix the problem no matter what. If the homeowner wanted to stop paying, then that's when he stops working. He has NO RESPONSIBILITY to fix anything if he is not getting paid

You are correct, have the HO sign off that they asked you to stop working before you were able to identify and correct the problem.

[growler]

In my opinion, saying that ALL troubleshooting in residential work can be accomplished in 1 hours is an unrealistic statement. I have been in this field for over 30 years and would never say that I could find every problem inside of 1 hour.

I fully agree. I have actually found a circuit that stopped working that was fed from the main panel in another house ( not town house). I would guess that it had been hooked up temporary for construction and never disconnected. It really feels strange going into the neighbors yard tracting a cable but that's where it went. Then I needed permission to disconnect it and leave in a safe condition before even starting to repair the real problem. There are some really weird problems out there if you go to enough homes.

[Fulthrotl]

I have been in this field for over 30 years and would never say that I could find every problem inside of 1 hour.

sometimes i can't even find the HOUSE inside of an hour......:rolleyes:

[satcom]

sometimes i can't even find the HOUSE inside of an hour......:rolleyes:

So true, and someone has to pay for that time, over 35 years and third generation in business, I looked at some of the troubleshooting actuals, we have, over the years, and it is not unusual to find some that took 1/2 day to full day, and the average was 2.25 hours.

[zbang]

But they are "practicing" law and Medicine we already know our jobs

They're putting their medical/legal training into practice (that is, they're actually doing it, not just talking about it :grin:), thus they are practicing.

[220/221]

I have actually found a circuit that stopped working that was fed from the main panel in another house

We see that all the time in apartments. Some crackhead with a little knowledge goes into the common attic/crawl space and taps the neighbors power.

And, .......I have learned most every thing I know while getting paid for it. It's all about the presentation.:cool:

[roger3829]

sometimes i can't even find the HOUSE inside of an hour......:rolleyes:

EXACTLY!!!!

That's why it has to take more than an hour!!!

I bought a GPS so that I could cut down on the "finding the house time" but now charge the customer for use of the GPS:smile::smile:

[480sparky]

sometimes i can't even find the HOUSE inside of an hour......:rolleyes:

Then there's the customer who has to tell you about their car, the vacation they took in 1956, their operation last year, their new grandson......

[Rawls007]

For me, troubleshooting has been a pretty unprofitable endeavor. Most customers don't want to pay if you don't find the problem, and you wind up wasting a couple of hours. Other problems are found immediately and aren't worth the trip if you charge hourly.

To deal with this dilemma, I just figure for a worst case scenario (such as simply installing new circuitry instead of trying to troubleshoot it), and tell the customer if I don't find the problem within an hour they can pay me the flat rate I originally quoted(usually around $100), or they can pay me the worst case scenario fee to go ahead and just install new stuff.

[480sparky]

For me, troubleshooting has been a pretty unprofitable endeavor. Most customers don't want to pay if you don't find the problem, and you wind up wasting a couple of hours. Other problems are found immediately and aren't worth the trip if you charge hourly......

Yes surprisingly, many up-start ECs 'specialize' in just that. 24-hour service.... on-call..... we do it all.... Anything to get that phone to ring.

I don't advertise service call work. Don't say that I hate doing it, but my regular customers give me enough of it to get my USRDA of it.

[celtic]

Now that we have rambled on for 11 some odd pages discussing varioius mind bending dilemmas like:
- birds,
- buried/cut cables
- pricing options
- what real men do/don't do
- xmas lights
- ....and who knows what else

Are we any closer to having a question answered by the OP?



:-?

I think we need to know the "W"'s on the situation before the OP is fed to the wolves.

Zappy...spill the W's:
What was the problem?
Why did it take so long?
Etc
Etc
Etc

Have the wolves had their feast?

[480sparky]

.....Have the wolves had their feast?

Yep.... time to let the vultures in. :D

[steelersman]

this forum is screwing up the posts and assigning them to the wrong persons.

[220/221]

Hey! I said that ^

[steelersman]

Hey! I said that ^
LOL!! I'm serious though it was a few minutes ago when I tried to quote someone who had misquoted me I thought but when I saw my quote with his name and then hsomeone else's name with another of someone elso's name then.....forget about it. I'm getting confused now. :)

[hardworkingstiff]

LOL!! I'm serious though it was a few minutes ago when I tried to quote someone who had misquoted me I thought but when I saw my quote with his name and then hsomeone else's name with another of someone elso's name then.....forget about it. I'm getting confused now. :)

Who's on 1st?:smile:

[LarryFine]

Who's on 1st?:smile:Yes. :wink:

[Fulthrotl]

this forum is screwing up the posts and assigning them to the wrong persons.

and the entertainment value is tremendous.... i can hardly
wait for the next installment.

and if you didn't like something i said, it wasn't me, it was the
other guy.....

signed,
the other guy

[Fulthrotl]

EXACTLY!!!!

That's why it has to take more than an hour!!!

I bought a GPS so that I could cut down on the "finding the house time" but now charge the customer for use of the GPS:smile::smile:

um, dude, i don't know how to break this to you, but "finding the source
of the problem" has to be more specific than the street address to be
billable.... JMHO

[iaov]

I think Marc came up withe the best solution in post #5.

[bradleyelectric]

that would have been waaayyyy to short of a thread for us.

[hardworkingstiff]

I think Marc came up withe the best solution in post #5.

If that doesn't work, then post #3 is next.

You must remember. A happy customer doesn't say much. An unhappy customer will go out of his way to discredit you and tell anyone who will listen what a horrible experience they had with you.

You might be right to expect full payment, but will you win if you get paid?

If you follow Marc's advice in post 3, you put the customer off guard. They have nothing to complain about, and might tell people what a pleasure it was to deal with you. How much is that worth? Think about it.

[Sonny Boy]

Blank feed-through GFCI device?

[jimmyglen]

Well this thread has some good and some really off topic posts in it

Troubleshooting seems like the best gig and winds up being the worst

I love how everyone monday morning quarterbacks and says how fast it SHOULD have been fixed.

You work your butt and your brain to the max (with the H.O following you the entire time)
then when you fix it fast you get a whole check for $150

If you are in a two story house (with a problem on the second floor or attic) try running those stairs back and forth a few times and see how fast an hour goes.

ALSO the homeowner never gives you all the info on what was happening when and where until you get 3/4 of the way into the problem

Customers think I am the smartest electrician (find it and fix it fast) or I am the dumbest (cant find it) - Some days I dont know myself

[mdshunk]

I love how everyone monday morning quarterbacks and says how fast it SHOULD have been fixed.
I'm an every day quarterback. I have invested in education, experience, and the test equipment necessary to make money at this sort of work, and complete it in a timely manner. I speak from experience on troubleshooting when I post.

That's about all I have to say about that.

[peter d]

I'm an every day quarterback. I have invested in education, experience, and the test equipment necessary to make money at this sort of work, and complete it in a timely manner. I speak from experience on troubleshooting when I post.

That's about all I have to say about that.

I think we should all vote for Marc for president in 2012.

[ITO]

I am not the quarterback, I am the coach and if you wanna play you had better perform.

I can say with all honesty that if a service man in my company spent 3 hours trouble shooting a fart fan, there had better be a damn good reason or I would be looking for a new service man.

Put yourself in the customers shoes, would you pay a 3 hour ticket for nothing?

[emahler]

I am not the quarterback, I am the coach and if you wanna play you had better perform.

I can say with all honesty that if a service man in my company spent 3 hours trouble shooting a fart fan, there had better be a damn good reason or I would be looking for a new service man.

Put yourself in the customers shoes, would you pay a 3 hour ticket for nothing?

i tend to differentiate between a 3 hr call where the service guy says "I can't find the problem, I'm leaving, here's your bill" and one where the customer says "that's it...no more"

who's to say, he wouldn't have found it in 15 mins and fixed it?

[jaylectricity]

I can say with all honesty that if a service man in my company spent 3 hours trouble shooting a fart fan, there had better be a damn good reason or I would be looking for a new service man.

There's that term again.

[roger3829]

I can say with all honesty that if a service man in my company spent 3 hours trouble shooting a fart fan, there had better be a damn good reason or I would be looking for a new service man.

Put yourself in the customers shoes, would you pay a 3 hour ticket for nothing?

I think almost anybody could troubleshoot and fix a fart fan in less time than it takes to read all these posts if the problem was as complicated as a bad switch or a bad breaker or even a bad fan. That should definatly take less than 3 hours.

But..... If it was as easy as finding a bad splice in a box, finding a bad splice buried in a box in the wall/ceiling, finding a bad splice without a box, finding rodent chewed wires... etc..... Then who knows how long it could take to find the problem, plus then fix it correctly without damaging the building or damaging it as little as possible.

That's where the time factor comes into play.

[iwire]

That's where the time factor comes into play.

Don't you think there is a point where a good service person should know when to give up looking for the problem and just find a way to re-feed the circuit? :smile:

[ultramegabob]

Don't you think there is a point where a good service person should know when to give up looking for the problem and just find a way to re-feed the circuit? :smile:

Yep........

[ITO]

Well put.

Would you pay an AC service tech 3 hours of labor to figure out why your t-stat is not working?

[hardworkingstiff]

Don't you think there is a point where a good service person should know when to give up looking for the problem and just find a way to re-feed the circuit? :smile:

Bob,

The only concern I have about re-feeding the circuit without knowing where the problem is, is how do I insure I don't put voltage where it shouldn't be?

[roger3829]

Bob,

The only concern I have about re-feeding the circuit without knowing where the problem is, is how do I insure I don't put voltage where it shouldn't be?

What he said........:smile:

[ultramegabob]

Bob,

The only concern I have about re-feeding the circuit without knowing where the problem is, is how do I insure I don't put voltage where it shouldn't be?

did you take meter readings at the exhaust fan? are you missing power or neutral? did you take all the connections apart and find where power comes in and out? did you did you check each of the switch legs for continuity? its a process of elimination....

[macmikeman]

Don't you think there is a point where a good service person should know when to give up looking for the problem and just find a way to re-feed the circuit? :smile:

Yes, right here in this thread....http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=964396&postcount=86 8-)

[growler]

Don't you think there is a point where a good service person should know when to give up looking for the problem and just find a way to re-feed the circuit? :smile:

Where do you plan to re-feed this circuit from. It's not just the exhaust fan but also the vanity light and the receptacles. Any new wiring would require that the circuit be brought up to code and that's a dedicated circuit from the panel. That may not be all that simple to do.

Then there is the fact that you didn't locate the problem in the first place which means that you may be leaving a hazardous condition behind.

People hire a professional to look out for their best interest. Leaving live bad wiring is not in the customer's best interest. If you can find both ends of a conductor it's normally easy enough to locate the break and if you can't find both ends how will you disconnect it.

[iwire]

Where do you plan to re-feed this circuit from. It's not just the exhaust fan but also the vanity light and the receptacles. Any new wiring would require that the circuit be brought up to code and that's a dedicated circuit from the panel. That may not be all that simple to do.

Then there is the fact that you didn't locate the problem in the first place which means that you may be leaving a hazardous condition behind.

People hire a professional to look out for their best interest. Leaving live bad wiring is not in the customer's best interest. If you can find both ends of a conductor it's normally easy enough to locate the break and if you can't find both ends how will you disconnect it.

I think your turning a simple fix into an ordeal and that is not necessarily in the best interest of the customer either.

[roger3829]

Where do you plan to re-feed this circuit from. It's not just the exhaust fan but also the vanity light and the receptacles. Any new wiring would require that the circuit be brought up to code and that's a dedicated circuit from the panel. That may not be all that simple to do.

Then there is the fact that you didn't locate the problem in the first place which means that you may be leaving a hazardous condition behind.

People hire a professional to look out for their best interest. Leaving live bad wiring is not in the customer's best interest. If you can find both ends of a conductor it's normally easy enough to locate the break and if you can't find both ends how will you disconnect it.

If the entire house is finished, panel in the garage at the other end of the house, how do you just "re-feed it"?

[iwire]

If the entire house is finished, panel in the garage at the other end of the house, how do you just "re-feed it"?

I thought I was talking to electricians.:-?

Maybe there is an attic, maybe a basement or crawl, or maybe a nearby lightly loaded circuit I don't know I was not there.

I did not say it can always be re-fed but if I can't figure out the problem with a bath fan in 3 hours it is time to change tactics before I run out of daylight. :roll:

[220/221]

The only concern I have about re-feeding the circuit without knowing where the problem is, is how do I insure I don't put voltage where it shouldn't be?

When you refeed, you disconnect the original, non working feed.

I thought of this thread this morning.

Resi troubleshoot, no power to the living room switches and 2 receps. I diagnosed it (95% probabability) in 5 seconds as a bad backstabbed recep.

HO offered that "no elec work had been done". I replied "that will make it easier if it is all stock wiring"

Took apart everything close. 4 sw boxes and 6 receps.......... nothing. Double and triple checked all connections and thought about heading upstairs. An hour was about gone as I went to the garage. There was a pull down attic stairway and the moment I looked up there I knew the problem would be here. Several open splices and jbs were visable.

HO added a recep in the garage by tapping the LR circuit. Loose orange wirenut. Problem solved and repaired in 1 minute.

I should know enough to discount anything a HO says.

[roger3829]

I thought I was talking to electricians.:-?

Maybe there is an attic, maybe a basement or crawl, or maybe a nearby lightly loaded circuit I don't know I was not there.

I did not say it can always be re-fed but if I can't figure out the problem with a bath fan in 3 hours it is time to change tactics before I run out of daylight. :roll:

So did I.:confused:

Maybe there was an attic. Maybe it was a 1st floor bath with finished rooms above and below. I don't know either as I was not there.:confused:

Would you tap a non-working bathroom receptacle onto a 15a bedroom circuit because that was the closest circuit?

I think it would be best to repair the existing circuit whenever possible.

[220/221]

Would you tap a non-working bathroom receptacle onto a 15a bedroom circuit because that was the closest circuit?


You shouldn't.....but I never say never.....unless I am saying never say never, in which case I have to say never to make my point.

In an 60's era house, the bath recep may have already been on the closest bedroom 15A circuit. All you are doing it is putting it back how it was. It should be upgraded but there are cases in which money dictates the extent of the repair.

[G & G Electric]

Wow, everything has been discussed, everything but how to help this guy with his troubleshooting skills. Verify voltage at the switch to ground and to your neutral, trace circuit to breaker, and turn off. Back at the switch, do a continuity test on all wires that you believe that switch feeds and/or are made up in the switch box. After you've identified all your wires, check resistance. All that shouldn't take no more that 25 min - TOPS. By the time you've undone the joints to do your continuity test, you've likely found the problem. If there is a short in the neutral (or hot, or whatever) between the exhaust fan and the switch, and it's buried in sheetrock or totally inaccesable, then cut the wire at both ends and re-feed. Problem figured out and solved in 1 to 1 1/2 hours. It would be hard for me to look a customer in the eyes if I would have to return due to faulty workmanship or if I couldn't find a problem in 10 feet of wire between a switch and a fan. But that's just how I roll...

[growler]

Wow, everything has been discussed, everything but how to help this guy with his troubleshooting skills. Verify voltage at the switch to ground and to your neutral, trace circuit to breaker, and turn off. Back at the switch, do a continuity test on all wires that you believe that switch feeds and/or are made up in the switch box. After you've identified all your wires, check resistance. All that shouldn't take no more that 25 min - TOPS. By the time you've undone the joints to do your continuity test, you've likely found the problem. If there is a short in the neutral (or hot, or whatever) between the exhaust fan and the switch, and it's buried in sheetrock or totally inaccesable, then cut the wire at both ends and re-feed. Problem figured out and solved in 1 to 1 1/2 hours. It would be hard for me to look a customer in the eyes if I would have to return due to faulty workmanship or if I couldn't find a problem in 10 feet of wire between a switch and a fan. But that's just how I roll...

This all sounds good but you broke the first rule of trouble-shooting. You didn't find out what problem you are trying to find. It's the feed to the bathroom that's missing and not 10 ft of wire between the fan and the switch.

The OP stated that the lights, receptacle and fan are not working and he can not located the bathroom feed. No power to switches or receptacle.

[celtic]

Problem figured out and solved in 1 to 1 1/2 hours.

This all sounds good but you broke the first rule of trouble-shooting. You didn't find out what problem you are trying to find. It's the feed to the bathroom that's missing and not 10 ft of wire between the fan and the switch.

The OP stated that the lights, receptacle and fan are not working and he can not located the bathroom feed. No power to switches or receptacle.


...and he broke the second rule:
Collateral damage

Sure the "repair" might be done in 1.5 - 2 hours....but what about patchwork?
Just how is this thing going to refed?
...and how long/much will the repair to any collateral damages take?


Again:


Now that we have rambled on for 14 some odd pages discussing varioius mind bending dilemmas like:
- birds,
- buried/cut cables
- pricing options
- what real men do/don't do
- xmas lights
- ....and who knows what else

Are we any closer to having a question answered by the OP?




:confused:

I think we need to know the "W"'s on the situation before the OP is fed to the wolves.

Zappy...spill the W's:
What was the problem?
Why did it take so long?
Etc
Etc
Etc

Have the wolves had their feast?


Have the vultures had their fill now as well?

[bradleyelectric]

Are we any closer to having a question answered by the OP?

We don't need him. We can fill page after page without answering a question from an OP!!



Have the vultures had their fill now as well?


We'll sleep on it and get back to you.

[steelersman]

We don't need him. We can fill page after page without answering a question from an OP!!

There's that warm attitude I was looking for. That's the way to make the OP feel right at home! :)

[bradleyelectric]

There's that warm attitude I was looking for. That's the way to make the OP feel right at home! :)

you just wait till sunday pal!

[steelersman]

you just wait till sunday pal!
I can't wait! We're going to do what we haven't been able to do in 5 years....go into B-more and leave with an 11-3 record. It will be a low scoring, defensive battle, but in the end I will be happy. :)

[zappy]

I got alot of suggestions from people i respect on this forum and elsewhere,and like i mention i posted under "checking my troubleshooting skills with the pro's"about a week or so ago and talked about how i went about troubleshooting this job and suggestions on how i can improve.I check the most common places.I have troubleshooted a few hundred jobs and this is my first complaint.That tracer emailer i think posted,man that's what i want for christmas!Anyway i thank everyone for there opinion and helping me be a better electrician and human being.I love this forum and thank mike holt for it.Happy holidays everyone:smile:

[bradleyelectric]

Bla Bla Bla :)

talks cheap

[steelersman]

talks cheap
If you're going to quote me, be a man and don't quote me saying something that I never did! That's a sad move there. Please show a little more class next time.

I never said: Bla Bla Bla :)

[roger]

Time for this thread to go to bed.

Roger