What would you do?

[bbe]

Roughed in a house awhile back, passed inspect everything good. Well got a call the plumbing failed inspect an that they were going to have to replace some floor joists that the plumber drilled to close to edge for the drain. So I had to go back an remove some wiring that went thru the same joists. Ok did it then came back a week later an reinstalled my wiring. Then yesterday he called and said that he decided to redo the laundry room walls and that I needed to come an put my wires ( dryer and washing mach.) back in the new walls. I show up and the carpenters had pinched my wires between 2 studs. Called owner and told him that it would have to be repulled and that it would cost x amount plus the amount for moving wiring for plumbers to fix there work nad he hit the roof. Said I was the highest paid contractor there and that I had blew his budget for the job an he didnt have any money left. He was refering to the change orders for the lighting and dedicated ckts he added. The way I feel is my work passed inspect and I was done not my fault the plumber an carpenter messed my wiring up and needed to be fixed. By the way the plumbing has failed inspect 4 times so far an still hasnt passed. So he said he'll get the carpenter to fix it and I tell him that he cant its under my license and I dont want the liability. So now where at a stand off what should I do? Thanks

[mikeames]

I would explain to him as calmly as possible how I am a professional unlike the others. The plumber cost him money, and cost you time. I would explain that it is unfair to justify my cost compared to the others. I would explain that if he gets the carpenter to touch any of the wiring then I will have to report it to the AHJ which may have a negative impact on the whole job. As far as the change orders, that's poor planing and if "I" the electrician poorly planed something I would eat the cost. I can not afford to make changes to my jobs as I would never make progress.

[480sparky]

Explain that he could deduct some of your cost by back-charging the other trades for the damages they caused, and for the extra T&M you had to put in because of their poor installation.

After all, if I screw up some other trades' work, I should pay for it, not the HO.

[ceb58]

Called owner and told him that it would have to be repulled and that it would cost x amount plus the amount for moving wiring for plumbers to fix there work nad he hit the roof


Just tell HO that he needs to back charge the plumbers.


The way I feel is my work passed inspect and I was done not my fault the plumber an carpenter messed my wiring up and needed to be fixed


You are correct. It is not your place to redo your work for free because some else screwed up.

So he said he'll get the carpenter to fix it and I tell him that he cant its under my license and I dont want the liability. So now where at a stand off what should I do? Thanks

Calmly explain that the carpenter or any one else moving or altering your wireing will void any warranty on the home. And if it is allowed your only options are to report this to the AHJ.

Is the HO acting as the GC?

[bbe]

The change orders came in when in the beginning he only wanted 1 light in each room then on the walk thru ,after the contract was signed , to show me where he wanted switches he started adding can lights, pendants, dedicated ckts for musical equip. and computers, original was gas stove then it was electric, then with the added ckts had to go to a 40 ckt panel. Then he added a bathroom under the stairs. He admits he didnt add up all the change orders so when he got the rough bill with change orders he hit the roof. So now here I am and he also said that I wasnt getting the job from his dad now because of the price of the changes and that if he had it to do over he would have went with a lower priced electrician because I'm so high end. Try to explain that even they would have billed for all the changes ,he doesnt get it and I guess im not explaining well enough to him. He thinks that since i've been paid the most that I should do this for free.

[bbe]

Yes the homeowner is acting gc and dont have a clue let me tell you.

[480sparky]

If he can find someone that will do the job for less, he should have hired that person if he didn't like your price. Your price is your price.

If he wants you to work for less because there's someone out there that will work for a price lower than yours, tell him you can raise your price since there's someone who would charge more than you do.

The fact that he hasn't kept an eye on his budget is not your fault. It's his. Solely and completely. If he keeps adding and changing things, he should expect to pay for them. Every item he puts in his shopping cart needs to get paid for if he wants to take them home.

Stand your ground. If you lose future work, think of this.... do you still want to work for this guy in the future?

[bradleyelectric]

So now here I am and he also said that I wasnt getting the job from his dad now because of the price of the changes and that if he had it to do over he would have went with a lower priced electrician because I'm so high end. Try to explain that even they would have billed for all the changes ,he doesnt get it and I guess im not explaining well enough to him. He thinks that since i've been paid the most that I should do this for free.

Poor planning on his fault doesn't mean I am supposed to work for free. If his father thinks it does you don't need to work for him do you? You might want to see if his father does want you after this is over anyway. He may just be blowing smoke.

[ceb58]

Yes the homeowner is acting gc and dont have a clue let me tell you.

And in that lies the problem.....

The best thing may be that you have been paid for the rough in. You may want to start packing your bag. All the talk of other work and should have gone with the cheaper guy. Gives me a headache. At this point you are in the drivers seat. Let the guy know HE added the extras not YOU. If he wont pay then its time to start filing paper work for a lien that will not make the bank happy and they have the money not him.

[satcom]

If he can find someone that will do the job for less, he should have hired that person if he didn't like your price. Your price is your price.

If he wants you to work for less because there's someone out there that will work for a price lower than yours, tell him you can raise your price since there's someone who would charge more than you do.

The fact that he hasn't kept an eye on his budget is not your fault. It's his. Solely and completely. If he keeps adding and changing things, he should expect to pay for them. Every item he puts in his shopping cart needs to get paid for if he wants to take them home.

Stand your ground. If you lose future work, think of this.... do you still want to work for this guy in the future?


I would love to see this guy, go to the market, check out, then run back and get more items, and tell the check out person, the bill is too high, is there really anybody that dumb? or that crafty ?
When you deal with someone like that, just get away, fast and don't look back.

[480sparky]

One thing I just thought of: What does your contract state about this situation?

[Greg Swartz]

Yes the homeowner is acting gc and dont have a clue...

BBE,
I have been in your situation before. I had a custom home with the HO as the GC.
I find that HOs who are acting as GCs are doing so because they are trying to save money. So, you have already gone against the grain, because you are asking for more. Legitimate or not, he takes this personally, and you will take the brunt of it.

There are several good ideas on this thread:

1. Don't back down.

2. Be very professional about this. If you do not, the whole situation may backfire.

3. Build a case. What I mean, is to sit down, write everything down, step by step, how things happened. Explain this to the HO to make sure that you and him / her are on the same page. If you are, then ask the HO, if they were in your situation, if they would perform free work if the problems caused were not their fault. What this does, is set the HO in your shoes. It gets them to see the situation from your side. And under most circumstances, they will come to see the error of their ways... and the error of the other contractors as well.

4. Offer to help the HO build a case against the other contractors. (And do it for free) Lets face it, you want to get paid, and the other contractors are not ones you want to work with. So, get the HO on your side. Explain how to do all this to him / her.

5. Don't take it personally. We perform the work, and by nature, guys define themselves by what they do. Your definition states you are of the best trades, and you are the best of the best, because you are business owner... This HO wanting you to fix a problem that is not your fault... and wanting you to do it for free... I know it is insulting. I know you hate it. But DO NOT take it personally. The HO is looking out for his best interest. Not yours. You just gotta get him on your side...

Been there. Hated it. I had to learn to not take things personally.

Greg

[satcom]

One thing I just thought of: What does your contract state about this situation?

Good point, with a good contract, drafted by an attorney, he would have no problems, everything would be spelled out in writing, before the job started. Over and over we are reminded not to work without a contract, and most state laws require them, for consumer protection, our state laws require them, our insurance underwriters, audit them, and I would never want to go in front of a judge without one.

[charlietuna]

Remember--The homeowner is saving at least 10 percent by not hiring knowledgable building construction supervision and there is a strong possibility that the plumber might not have made mistakes had he been supervised ! If not, at least there would be a meadiator to discuss the costs of the additional work. I have always tried to minimize backcharges to other trades thru general contractors, but in this case i feel the owner is fully responsible for his failure to do two things! To hire qualified subcontractors and failing to properly supervise them. I would present him with two bills-one with O & P and one at cost, and tell him point blank you are trying to work with him.....

[480sparky]

Remember--The homeowner is saving at least 10 percent by not hiring knowledgable building construction supervision ....

On the flip side, I bet most of the subs are charging him full price (or more, considering the PITA factor) because it's a one-time job. HOs that act as their own GC rarely become regular customers.

[Greg Swartz]

One thing I just thought of: What does your contract state about this situation?

I know this protects you, but I have found that being diplomatic (at first) in such a situation works out much better. When diplomacy fails, then break out the contract, and explain to them what they signed.

I understand that this is a legal document, I just see that being civil (even when the HO / GC is not) at first is a better situation, and usually allows for a better outcome... on all parts.

On the other hand, there are times to force the hand. (read: pull out the contract)

[bbe]

Well were supposed to meet tomorrow, I guess we'll see what happens. I've tried talking and explaining that fixing others mistakes is costing me money, time, and time I could be spending with my family but all it does it get him fired up. And i'm not going to lie when the tone changes i dont like it, i automatically go on the defense.

[steelersman]

Well were supposed to meet tomorrow, I guess we'll see what happens. I've tried talking and explaining that fixing others mistakes is costing me money, time, and time I could be spending with my family but all it does it get him fired up. And i'm not going to lie when the tone changes i dont like it, i automatically go on the defense.
I would be enfuriated (I think that's how to spell it) if after trying to explain to him in a civil tone, he still gets fired up and acts like you are costing him money! Ha! What?!! I would say: "I'm the one getting screwed here pal! You're costing me extra money and expecting me to suck it up! Well guess what? I'll suck it up alright. I'll yank out every peice of wire and box and recessed light and everything that's mine. I'll suck it right up outta here!"

Tough situation to be in. I wouldn't fare well at being diplomatic about it.

[Greg Swartz]

Well were supposed to meet tomorrow, I guess we'll see what happens. I've tried talking and explaining that fixing others mistakes is costing me money, time, and time I could be spending with my family but all it does it get him fired up. And i'm not going to lie when the tone changes i dont like it, i automatically go on the defense.

That is the perfect time to "shut up and listen."

Remember, I am on your side here. Don't take what I am saying as offensive...

I'm not telling you to not go after your money, but really listen to the HO here. Hear what he is saying with words, and what he is saying with body language, and hear what he is saying with inflections...

This will help you to figure out how to handle the situation.

If you listen to what he is saying, then you can figure out the REAL reason as to what is happening here. Is he mad at you? Is he mad at the plumber? Is he mad at the drywaller? Is he mad at the situation?

That is why taking things personal is the wrong direction. It gets you fired up, and he will respond to that, and the situation will blow up, and become out of control. Then everyone walks away upset, nothing gets resolved, and you probably lose out...

If you can figure out where the anger originates, you can work to redirect it. Also, if you arrive early, and the other contractors are going there, you can talk to them too... ask them if you have done anything wrong?

I'm not telling you to be passive, but, get everyone on your side. Or at the least, get them to admit you are not at fault. Then you are removed from the situation.

I like the 2 invoice idea. 1 with OH&P, and 1 your cost. If the others agree, that you are not at fault, you could leave them with the HO... (I'd still inflate the "your cost" invoice, because you know they will choose that one, since they will be paying it!

[Minuteman]

As a wise man once said, "You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em". You are in the hold 'em stage right now, and that's okay. Stand your ground. However, if things go further south, fold 'em.

[ceb58]

Tell the HO you will bring in another electrician to give him a price to complete the job. I will come in look every thing over and give him a price that will have him sleeping in your drive way begging you to please come back:D:D

[charlietuna]

This might be another "Item" to add to the list on the back of your proposal form:
"Contractor/Home Owner is responsible for the cost of addition labor and materials requiring changed due to other trade's actions"

[growler]

So now here I am and he also said that I wasnt getting the job from his dad now because of the price of the changes and that if he had it to do over he would have went with a lower priced electrician because I'm so high end.


Tell him to pay for the work that's already completed ( to include change orders) and then you will pull your permit from the job and he can't do whatever he wants.

He just thinks things are expensive now, just wait until he tries to get someone to take over the job. :wink:

[growler]

This might be another "Item" to add to the list on the back of your proposal form:
"Contractor/Home Owner is responsible for the cost of addition labor and materials requiring changed due to other trade's actions"

I have found that it's better not to make a distinction between a homeowner and a general contractor. For that one job the homeowner is the general contractor and it's better to treat them like it right from the start. Homeowners may think that they are some sort of protected species ( last of the incredibly dumb cud chewers ) but contractors are not. So I always refer to the homeowner as the acting general contractor when the HO's name is on the building permit. Once you let them know they are the GC then you can explain the facts of life to them, GCs that don't know what they are doing are apt to lose money rather than make money. Let them know that they are on the hook for the same responsibilities as any other GC.

[ike5547]

So he said he'll get the carpenter to fix it and I tell him that he cant its under my license and I dont want the liability.

If it is just a matter of re-pulling a few romex cables I would allow the carpenter to do it. It's not rocket science. It'll be re-inspected right?

[iwire]

If it is just a matter of re-pulling a few romex cables I would allow the carpenter to do it. It's not rocket science. It'll be re-inspected right?


It's not rocket science but I would never let a carpenter work under my permit and in my area it would be against the law.

[ike5547]

It's not rocket science but I would never let a carpenter work under my permit and in my area it would be against the law.


I would make a small exception in this case.

Apparently, the home owner is broke and BBE, understandably, will not work for free. If the carpenter can frame buildings I'm sure he can pull a few cables. Sometimes it's better to bend a little than to break, IMO.

[GUNNING]

Tell the homeowner you really like the house and will enjoy living in it.
After you get his attention tell him its not your fault. Then ask for payment for all work completed so far. Then send the property owner a demand letter. Then its off to court to perfect your claim. Then comes filing the paperwork at the courthouse. The wait period and finally the auction. Movin in 60 days! With no rent if you act fast enough!
OR, Negotiate. Tell the owner all he has to do is sign a promissory note. He's not the owner? He' not the bank rep? He's the son? Call the cops. Then foreclose.

I had someone tell me he didn't want me to do the job as I was twisting the last wire nuts. Its a tactic of negotiation to start arguing just before the job is done. Its maddening, its theft. Go for the jugular. Build a lock tight case. Get all the trades on it. Find a lawyer that can do the job for a percentage.
When you find you cant do that economically, negotiate some more. It helps to slow a job down when this is happening. They are paying for the money at this point. Get the bank involved. They are having the asset waisted. Thats a lot of trouble for not allowing the carpenter to not run some wires. Maybe the plumber has a history with the owner and knows something you dont. Either jump on the band wagon and stall or ....
Negotiate. Bend like the wind little grass hopper. Get what you can and run. Run Forrest RUN!!

[growler]

I would make a small exception in this case.
If the carpenter can frame buildings I'm sure he can pull a few cables.

If the carpenter were any good he wouldn't have damaged the cable in the first place he would have informed the GC that the cable needed to be remove before the wall was moved.

The HO didn't say he was broke just over budget and that's his problem.When I make mistakes I end up over budget to. Fixing someone else's mistakes for free is a good way to end up over budget.

[ike5547]

If the carpenter were any good he wouldn't have damaged the cable in the first place...

IMO, the owner didn't hire expensive electricians; he hired cheap plumbers and carpenters.

[ceb58]

I would make a small exception in this case.

Apparently, the home owner is broke and BBE, understandably, will not work for free. If the carpenter can frame buildings I'm sure he can pull a few cables. Sometimes it's better to bend a little than to break, IMO.

Originally Posted by iwire http://forums.mikeholt.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?p=979728#post979728)
It's not rocket science but I would never let a carpenter work under my permit and in my area it would be against the law.


And it would be against the law here also. The carpenter is not listed as a qualified individual under his license.

The HO is not broke. How many times must we hear that line. You are putting me over budget as the $15,000.00 counter top comes through the door. I cant believe you charged $120.00 for the can light over the shower. Which cost $20,000.00

It's plain and simple. His work was INSTALLED and INSPECTED. OTHER trades screwed up. BBE should NOT have to eat any of it.

[iwire]

The HO is not broke. How many times must we hear that line. You are putting me over budget as the $15,000.00 counter top comes through the door. I cant believe you charged $120.00 for the can light over the shower. Which cost $20,000.00

It is not limited to HOs, a company I worked for did a five floor office building for an insurance company, they nickeled and dimed us for everything. Our contract was about a 1.8 million, the mill work was close to four million, stained cherry walls and doors and what was not cheery was painted poplar.


It's plain and simple. His work was INSTALLED and INSPECTED. OTHER trades screwed up. BBE should NOT have to eat any of it.

I agree, not his fault it should not be his expense.

[bradleyelectric]

Over budget and broke are 2 very different things. The laundry room change is due to the HO deciding to change the walls. I've seen this so many times and it's just like was stated. They want you to work free and they have the best things money can buy. For some reason even people in the trades believe they should work for free. If it costs extra time than it is an extra expense.

I do put up a couple extra straps on something unrelated or neaten up a little something that catches my eye when we are on a job, but I don't make an extra trip to do it. I just point it out to a helper and tell him to fix that while I make out the invoice. If it takes longer than that, I suggest they have us do. Than it is for a price. My prices are much more than $65/ hr. for service work. I don't do new houses.

[bbe]

Well guys the guy never called today to set up the meeting so on my way in for the day I stopped by the house. The guy that i'm working for wasnt there but his father was , He asked what was going on and I told him . Surprising he took my side and said that his son had just gotten in over his head alittle and was venting at me so he said to just bill him for the repairs. So thanks guys for all your advice I appreciate it.