panel replacement AFCI's

[bth0mas20]

When replacing a 200a panel in an existing house do afci's need to be added per the code?

[mdshunk]

The NEC does not address this in particular, but you may have local rules. I have not heard about any local rules requiring AFCI's to be fitted in the panel during changeouts. Matter of fact, with the proliferation of multiwire branch circuits, that could make a panel change downright expensive. I think the fair answer is probably 'NO', but it's always good advice to check with the local AHJ.

Having said all that, I'd suggest you try for the upsell anyhow, if for no other reason then to enhance your profit on the job.

[roger]

When replacing a 200a panel in an existing house do afci's need to be added per the code?

.
It would be ridiculous for a number of reasons but, local codes have the final say.

Roger

[bth0mas20]

Thats what I thought. With a house that is 25 years old thier has probally been an outlet added to each circuit in the house. It would be a panel full of afci's.

[Dennis Alwon]

Thats what I thought. With a house that is 25 years old thier has probally been an outlet added to each circuit in the house. It would be a panel full of afci's.

If you are under the 08 as NC is then you can expect a panel full of AFCI's on a new house. I am not looking forward to that. Fortunately I just finished a house with 2 - 40 circuit panels that had about 38 circuits, 120v) in each. This is not including the other panels in the house which had all of the 240v circuits. Think of the cost, etc on that.

[iwire]

Think of the cost, etc on that.

We sell electical equipment, more equipment means more profit. At least as long as the enforcement of the code is strong and uniform.

[Pierre C Belarge]

AFCIs will actually help an EC in more than one way. He can, as Bob mentioned charge more. He can also rest assured that the quality of the installation will be at a minimum as the AFCI CBer placement does not tolerate poor wiring installations.

[iwire]

Looking at my last post I think it may be misleading, I was talking about new work.

I doubt I would attempt to up sell AFCIs on a old building unless the customer was willing to go T&M.

I also doubt an EC would get much work if they always included AFCIs with a service change bid.

[chris500]

The city of St. Louis, if they are able to ever adopt the 2008 NEC, is intending to make the installation of AFCI's retroactive on existing panel change outs.

This will be a huge issue if it is ever passed. Housing stock is typical of an old city.

However, I don't personally think they will ever get it passed. There is too much political bickering in St. Louis, that gridlock is the theme. Maybe that's not a bad thing.

[Karl H]

I'm curious when the 2008 NEC is adopted here in 2011.
How many "Defective" AFCI's will be replaced with standard
single pole breakers after inspection. When I say "Defective"
that's what the installer's story will be when he realizes
that an AFCI will hold the installer accountable for his/her
wiring methods. I know from talking to one of my suppliers
that theres been a lot of "Defective" AFCI's already.Now it's
just the bedrooms ,wait till it's the entire house.

[roger]

I'm curious when the 2008 NEC is adopted here in 2011.
How many "Defective" AFCI's will be replaced with standard
single pole breakers after inspection. When I say "Defective"
that's what the installer's story will be when he realizes
that an AFCI will hold the installer accountable for his/her
wiring methods. I know from talking to one of my suppliers
that theres been a lot of "Defective" AFCI's already.Now it's
just the bedrooms ,wait till it's the entire house.

Here you could loose your license for installing parts that are not per applicable codes.

With that said, I'm sure many DIYers will be installing standard breakers for their weekend projects and also replacing AFCI's with standard breakers if they have nuisance tripping.

Roger

[Karl H]

Here you could loose your license for installing parts that are not per applicable codes.

That should hold true for all states IMO.

[marcerrin]

I'm curious when the 2008 NEC is adopted here in 2011.
How many "Defective" AFCI's will be replaced with standard
single pole breakers after inspection. When I say "Defective"
that's what the installer's story will be when he realizes
that an AFCI will hold the installer accountable for his/her
wiring methods. I know from talking to one of my suppliers
that theres been a lot of "Defective" AFCI's already.Now it's
just the bedrooms ,wait till it's the entire house.

In Washington State you dont have to install AFCI's in panel changes.
We're adopting the 2008 NEC except for the AFCI rules. We still only have to protect the bedrooms.

[Greg Swartz]

In Colorado, when you change out a panel, you do not need to install AFCIs (unless of course they were already there...)

To be honest, I believe this is foolish... who could require such a thing?
It's insane!

Why, you ask?
Well, if you have an older house, you have to contend with MWBCs.
What happens when the new AFCIs trip? The old breakers worked fine... there's no selling point when the house has been working for 30 years...

You may have the issue of re-wiring an entire house...

Look, I understand profit, and increasing a job price, but I am not ever going to suggest installing AFCIs.

[Karl H]

IMHO you should'nt have to re-wire an entire house to
upgrade a panel.If I remove recept and replace it in an area that
should be GFCI then that's another story.

[mdshunk]

Look, I understand profit, and increasing a job price, but I am not ever going to suggest installing AFCIs.
Why? Because the person might say no? Because you don't like hard work? You're happy being poor? You don't believe in suggesting safety enhancements? You're not confident in your skills such that you'd be able to troubleshoot one, should it trip?

[electricmanscott]

Why? Because the person might say no? Because you don't like hard work? You're happy being poor? You don't believe in suggesting safety enhancements? You're not confident in your skills such that you'd be able to troubleshoot one, should it trip?

Are telling us that these AFCI breakers are Falwless? :rolleyes:

[mdshunk]

Are telling us that these AFCI breakers are Falwless? :rolleyes:
Not yet. So far, I'm just asking questions to hopefully point out the near sightedness of not upselling, regardless of the product or service.

[Greg Swartz]

Why? Because the person might say no?
Not worried so much. But it is not required.

...Because you don't like hard work? ...
Not worried about that either... I work enough as it is. 80+ hours a week

...You're happy being poor?...
Nope. Not happy about that. And I am poor.

... You don't believe in suggesting safety enhancements? ...
I do not believe AFCIs are safety enhacements. I remember on this forum back in 2001 (yes, I was a member then... something went haywire, and I can't seem to fix my member date) when they were going to be mandatory... back when the 99 code had stated that Jan 1 2002, AFCIs were going to be required...

Anyway, Mike Holt was ADMANT against AFCIs. About how we were forcing a technology to be created, and how testing was different under each manufacturer.
I know AFCIs have changed since then, but I still do not believe they are safety enhancements.

... You're not confident in your skills such that you'd be able to troubleshoot one, should it trip?
Had enough experience troubleshooting them. Not worried there either.

I explained earlier that there are issues with MWBCs, and there are issues with older houses that do not work with AFCIs.
When you have an older house that has a 60A service or even a 100A FPE, and they are required to change the service out (due to insurance requirements) you are not required to change things out to AFCIs. Heck, even if you take a newer house, and upgrade the panel, you are not required to install more AFCIs...

[mdshunk]

I know AFCIs have changed since then, but I still do not believe they are safety enhancements.
Would you permit me to relate this... you don't have to believe in their value to propose their use and sell them. I don't happen to like white devices, but a lot of people want that color if I give it as an option.

[peter d]

Would you permit me to relate this... you don't have to believe in their value to propose their use and sell them. I don't happen to like white devices, but a lot of people want that color if I give it as an option.

Here's how I see it. I know you will point out the flaws in this. What good is an upsell if potential callbacks could quickly wipe out the money you made on the upsell? I'm not talking about AFCI's "finding" legit wiring problems that need to be corrected...I'm talking about the nightmares that Escott has endured with nuisance tripping from a product that is still very mysterious in its operation.

[mdshunk]

Here's how I see it. I know you will point out the flaws in this. What good is an upsell if potential callbacks could quickly wipe out the money you made on the upsell? I'm not talking about AFCI's "finding" legit wiring problems that need to be corrected...I'm talking about the nightmares that Escott has endured with nuisance tripping from a product that is still very mysterious in its operation.
Properly installed, there is no AFCI callback that will not be billable.

[Greg Swartz]

Would you permit me to relate this... you don't have to believe in their value to propose their use and sell them. I don't happen to like white devices, but a lot of people want that color if I give it as an option.

I can accept this statement.

Here's how I see it. I know you will point out the flaws in this. What good is an upsell if potential callbacks could quickly wipe out the money you made on the upsell? I'm not talking about AFCI's "finding" legit wiring problems that need to be corrected...I'm talking about the nightmares that Escott has endured with nuisance tripping from a product that is still very mysterious in its operation.

This is a concern I have.

Properly installed, there is no AFCI callback that will not be billable.

Unfortunately, proving this can become very difficult.
We are considered experts in our field. Installing something and then having "problems" with them, and blaming that problem on something else / someone else just doesn't fly. So, it automically becomes our fault.
And just because it is legitimately billable, does not mean that I won't eat the cost, because I want to keep an "A" customer.
Just because I am right does not make it right in other people's minds. (I hope that came across right... no pun intended)

[Karl H]

Anyway, Mike Holt was ADMANT against AFCIs. About how we were forcing a technology to be created, and how testing was different under each manufacturer.
I know AFCIs have changed since then, but I still do not believe they are safety enhancements.

I have a DVD where Mike Holt say's that he "Initialy" was adamantly
against AFCI's.But, after going to Cutler Hammer and seeing the
the difference in a Arcing waveform and other fault wave forms.
He changed his stance on the subject.It's all on the "Basic Electrical
Theory" DVD set. When I remodel my house I will be installing them.
But, then again I live here so I won't be losing money on call backs.
BTW I'm a Master Trouble-shooter.When something does'nt work
I instantly know there's trouble!:D

[electricmanscott]

Properly installed, there is no AFCI callback that will not be billable.

Bull, absolute bull

Edit....I gues anything is billable, whether or not you get paid is different story

[iwire]

Bull, absolute bull

Scott the fact you could not find the problem does not convince me that they trip for 'no' reason.

[bauler]

Hmmm. I'll have to check with our local AHJ about AFCI for panel change outs. Assumed they were required. I have one coming up this week in an 50 year old house. I planned on a AFCI for the bedroom circuits. I doing it for a fixed price. I added a little bit of fudge factor in my price. Hope there is enough in there to cover the possibility of shared neutrals etc. or I be working cheap. If you think about it, old houses should have them on almost every circuit. Its one problem I'm having with flat rate pricing vs t&m. I agree with Marc about up selling. This job is an up sell from replacing a breaker to replacing the panel. I'm sure most would agree that it would be a good idea to replace an old Zinsco panel.

[electricmanscott]

Scott the fact you could not find the problem does not convince me that they trip for 'no' reason.

Who says I haven't found the problem? And i never said they trip for no reason. Transformers often cause tripping. Problem found. :grin:


The real question is....was there even a "problem" to begin with. From my experience and from unscientific polling of other ec's I say no.

I am all for AFCI's and even their associated addtional costs, when they are perfected. The fact is they are not in my view.