Condo unit with tripping main breaker

[bjp_ne_elec]

Got a call today - local condo complex has the local utility show up during New Years Eve feastivities and determines the issue isn't on their end. They tell the staggering occupants how to reset the breaker if it goes again. I'm thinking, I wouldn't be giving that advice. First they never mentioned to shut down all the mains on the eight section OCP protected units from the outdoor meter distribution panel. Not a good idea to be turning this on without shutting down most of the load - especially not even knowing why the breaker is even tripping (loose connection, overloaded leg, defective breaker, etc, etc).

Well first of all I get called in and there is no labeling in the enclosure and the only thing I can make out on one of the breakers it "ITE". Call the local ITE distributor to find out he's not even open.

As I'm used to doing mostly new work - but branching in to more and more service work - due to there isn't much new work going on. I've never wired one of these "multi-meter socket/multi-breaker distribution panels (if that's the correct term) so this is all new to me and I'm looking to my friends and fellow ECs and JWs to help me out. This main breaker is in a seperate WP (and I use that term loosely as I found the weatherstrip that runs the perimeter of the inside of the box to be sagged so one corner isn't even fuctioning) enclosure. With this breaker inside - actually has a little extension handle that I found sitting in the bottom of the enclosure. How "safe" is it to pull the cover - it's basically two screws that sit at the bottom, and up top there are just two little tabs where the top of the cover sits behind it to stop the cover from tipping forward. No other screws. I was leary of pulling this as it comes right from the secondary side of a pad mounted transformer.

I'm guessing this thing is probably a 1000A or larger - each unit has a 200A main in this outside distribution set up. I was surprised that no amerage was listed on the handle - but I checked several other units.

Talk to the condo associations local rep and ask if there are any blueprints, drawings - anything that might have some Part Numbers listed or a line diagram of the distribution. I get a blank stare.

So the only way I'm even going to have a shot at finding out more info is to pull the inside cover - and I'm looking to see how safe that is. I'm thinking the face of the breaker behind this metal cover would stop the panel from going inward - but I'm not absolutely sure.

So who out there has worked on an ITE panel of this type and what should I be looking for?

Also, as long as I'm learning, I flipped open the little WP (and I use this loosely as well , as not one of them is latched, so the seal isn't even have a chance to perform the function it was intended for) and oddly find a 4-pole breaker. If someone was looking at me at that exact moment - they would have seen my blank stare. So guys, what's this 4-pole?

Thanks

[charlie k.]

BJP, I am going out on a limb here, The 4 pole breaker is probally a paralleled 2 pole breaker.
Each pole being half of the rating of the breaker. Thinking back Siemens was famous for this. A 2pole 400 amp breaker was made up of 4 200 amp breakers. If the large main is tripping dont rule out one unit (condo). Check aic ratings on the breakers you may find no coordination. ie 20k on individual condos and 15k on the building main. If everything looks good there suit up and start removing covers. Look for loose connections and discoloration at terminations. An infrared thermometer would come in handy as you look for hot spots. Next do a check of individual currents on all sub feeds as well as the main, they should add up. Hope this helps.

Charlie

[Buck Parrish]

I agree with Charlie. I have a couple of those main breakers in the truck for spares. ITE and GE make a single phase 200 amp main breaker that fits on 4 connections of the main bus bar.
These some times go bad , too.
And if water is directly dripping on them it will ruin the internal spring loaded trip mechanism. It will turn in to a glob of rust.

[bjp_ne_elec]

How many units in the condo?

Sorry - thought I mentioned it. It's eight units per complex, and this main breaker sits on the left of the eight meter socket/eight 200A breaker distribution center.

I will also mention that I checked some of the other main breaker WP enclosures and noticed that they didn't have ITE on the end of the handle - so my guess is that some have already been replaced. All the WP enclosures look identical - and have almost as many coats of paint as the walls at Fenway (Iwire will get this one).

[chris kennedy]

I'm guessing this thing is probably a 1000A or larger - each unit has a 200A main in this outside distribution set up. I was surprised that no amerage was listed on the handle - but I checked several other units.

How many and what size are the conductors feeding this?

[charlietuna]

From what you have stated--I would suggest you find a qualified service contractor to handle this problem. True, the load during the new years holiday may(?) have exceeded the main breaker's trip point. It may be adjustible? But someone needs to determine just how close the total load is which means setting up a data logger for a period of time. Just my $.02

[bjp_ne_elec]

How many and what size are the conductors feeding this?

Chris - I haven't pulled the cover that is over around the main breaker to determine that. That's what I was saying in the body of the post - as I'm not familiar with how this particular manufacturer's gear is put together.

[bjp_ne_elec]

From what you have stated--I would suggest you find a qualified service contractor to handle this problem. True, the load during the new years holiday may(?) have exceeded the main breaker's trip point. It may be adjustible? But someone needs to determine just how close the total load is which means setting up a data logger for a period of time. Just my $.02

Charlie - I like your suggestion, but I'm trying to turn myself in to a qualified service contractor - and how else to do it but tackle new challenges. Most of my experience is new construction, and my strong suit - but I need to grow.

[tonyou812]

I bet its water damage to the breaker. I recently pulled one out of a Hooters that was periodically tripping for about a month. The basement was damp and the doors to the cabinet that housed this breaker looked like they dont close anymore.

[bjp_ne_elec]

Just to add a little more info - they indicated the breaker was still tripping on today, and most of the folks were not at the complex. So it wasn't the increased demand when all the partying was going on - it's happening under normal useage - and with only one car in the parking lot. This should mean no washers or dryers going - should.

[active1]

Is this the style curcuit breaker your talking about?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.pioneerbreaker.com/v/vspfiles/photos/MBK225-1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.pioneerbreaker.com/SearchResults.asp%3FCat%3D710&usg=__lGG3qQFemxOadPmkV0IOdcZmEwM=&h=89&w=100&sz=3&hl=en&start=143&tbnid=9GGpI1r0hVuD7M:&tbnh=73&tbnw=82&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dite%2B225%2Bcircuit%2Bbreaker%26start %3D126%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Den%26sa%3DN

I would see them in old and new Siemens, Murry, and ITE pannels until a few years ago. One reason or advantage for the change advertised is the newer style flips sideways instead of up and down making it acceptable by the manufacture to mount the panel upside down. I believe they were tring to get away from the plug in main breakers.

It sounds like your not sure or comfortable doing the job maybe it would be better to pass on it.

[bjp_ne_elec]

It looks more like this:

http://www.oodle.com/detail/Ite-1000-Amp-Type-Et-Circuit-Breaker-1200-Amp-Mp-Frame/1106213901/toccoa/

The handle on this one looks identical to the one I see through the metal cover - but keep in mind, I haven't seen the whole breaker.

[hillbilly1]

Being that it looks like it's getting water in there, I agree with the others it's probably corroded and rusty. When it was reset, one or more of the blades may have not fully seated, causing a high resistance connection that is heating up and causing the thermal trip to activate. sometimes you can use an infrared thermometer to see hotter than average parts of the breaker. Even bad connections to the bus can cause the breaker to trip due to transfered heat.

[mxslick]

I was leary of pulling this as it comes right from the secondary side of a pad mounted transformer.



Do NOT, I repeat, DO NOT attempt to mess with or inspect this breaker unless you can get the poco to kill power to it!! In my cinema work these breakers are common and I have personally seen more than one of them fail violently.

Under the conditions you described and with what others have posted, that breaker is shot and most likely has water damage. The constant tripping under light loaading leads me to believe there is a serious internal fault developing.

While it is noble and great that you wish to expand your knowledge, this is one situation where you'd best be an observer.

Unless you have fully rated arc flash PPE (moon suit), being so close to the padmount you'd best leave it to someone with experience.

It would be most unfortunate to end up reading about you in the papers..as a burn victim or worse.

[charlietuna]

I agree with MX! Do you have an idea what fault current that pad mount transformer can produce??? It can blow a hole in the front of that switchgear big enough to push a wheelbarrel through if the breaker goes phase to phase -- i have seen it ! Also understand some main breaker cover plates are interlocked to trip if removed ??? Do you want to be removing this plate when the breaker trips under load?? And what are you gonna do when you have access to the breaker ?? Do you have recorder equipment?? It's fine to learn the trade but do it safely!

[satcom]

I agree with MX! Do you have an idea what fault current that pad mount transformer can produce??? It can blow a hole in the front of that switchgear big enough to push a wheelbarrel through if the breaker goes phase to phase -- i have seen it ! Also understand some main breaker cover plates are interlocked to trip if removed ??? Do you want to be removing this plate when the breaker trips under load?? And what are you gonna do when you have access to the breaker ?? Do you have recorder equipment?? It's fine to learn the trade but do it safely!

It says Master Electrician, in his profile, I would like to know what state licenses a Master that does not understand the extreme danger in fault current, that situation can produce. I also can't believe the 5 plus years of training it took to reach master level, din't cover fault dangers

[peter d]

I also can't believe the 5 plus years of training it took to reach master level, din't cover fault dangers


I believe it based on the number of electricians I've seen or heard about who will dive into a 480 volt panel live without the slightest idea of the danger present.

[Buck Parrish]

Bjp,
Call the poco, have them turn off the power. Then open the main get the style and number off the breaker. Then put the cover on have the poco turn it back on.
Then go get the breaker have the poco come out turn the power off. Get a permit, Put the new breaker in, call inspections have the poco turn it back on. Maybe in a different order.
You should test the Main cables on the load side of the breaker, too. Just to make sure the problem is not there. You may have a lug melting inside that panel. If this set up is on a wood wall. It could cause a fire. This is some thing that should be fixed right away.
Ideally to get the number off of the panel for the breaker . Then get it. So the poco can do it all in one trip.
Maybe somebody at the local supply house can ride over and tell what kind it is. So they can order one.
That breaker might be as high as $1200.00

[Fulthrotl]

It looks more like this:

http://www.oodle.com/detail/Ite-1000-Amp-Type-Et-Circuit-Breaker-1200-Amp-Mp-Frame/1106213901/toccoa/

The handle on this one looks identical to the one I see through the metal cover - but keep in mind, I haven't seen the whole breaker.

keep it that way until the power is off.

i'm gonna speak in generalities here... none of us have accurate
information, including you, and there lies the rub.

i have a bunch of old ite moulded case cb's that look a lot like what
you have there.... most of them are ancient, and have interrupting
ratings along the line of 20k.

if you have a fossil 1000 amp breaker, it probably has a rating something
like that. the upstream transformer probably has 40k amps available,
or even higher. if you fault it, it's going to be a film at eleven sort of
thing. the breaker may not have enough interrupting capacity for
the service if it is really old, and the service transformer has been
upgraded, as often happens.

if it's wet, or rusty, all bets are off, and it sounds like that's what's
going on, or something similar.

have the power downed, and with the gear cold, remove the covers,
take photos, write down all information, measure breaker lug centerlines,
and physical demensions, note lugs, and with all the subpanels
turned off, megger the load side of the main breaker, both opened
and closed. that should tell you if it's safe to re energize after you
put the covers back on the gear. even if it meggers ok, it's still iffy,
based on the nuisance tripping. catastrophic failure doesn't always
have telltale signs beforehand.

if you don't have the arc suit, leave this one for the next guy.
a 40 calorie suit, with all the bells and whistles, is about $1,250.
takes a week to 10 days to get one from salsbury.

ANYBODY opening or closing this breaker should be wearing arc fault
protection!

there's people here who've done this stuff way more than i have, but
i've done it enough to know when to play 'em and when to fold 'em.

i think i'd leave this one alone. not judging your ability or intelligence,
but if you haven't got the PPE to go in the shark tank, swimming isn't
a good idea.....:D

[slect]

If you want to be in service as opposed to new work you have to get comfortable pulling off the covers and dead fronts. No other way. You must visually inspect for water damage, discoloration, or melting or burning insulation on the phase conductors. Sounds like a faulty breaker. Replace it.
If there is additional damage to the enclosure sell them an entire new meter module. And don't give it away ! Good luck

[ptonsparky]

It says Master Electrician, in his profile, I would like to know what state licenses a Master that does not understand the extreme danger in fault current, that situation can produce. I also can't believe the 5 plus years of training it took to reach master level, din't cover fault dangers

I haven't taken a test lately but don't remember anything about the dangers of fault current being on it. Our test was over the NEC and did not include fault current calculations or the forces involved.

I would like to know what state does require a full and complete understanding, testing, or even a class on fault currents before taking a Masters exam.

bjp has come to a good spot for help.

[hillbilly1]

Service is a totally different animal from new construction, nearly everything you work on is live, and almost everything you work on is broken one way or another, That's why your there to fix it. PPE is a good thing to have,but is expensive, uncomfortable, hot, hard to work in. The gloves make it virtually impossible to work in tight spaces. Definitely the 40 cal suits. But then again third degree burns are also expensive, uncomfortable, hot and hard to work with. I have never seen a main breaker interlocked to trip removing the cover, but have seen them interlocked to where the cover cannot be removed without turning it off. Working with arc flash hazards are an OSHA training thing. Smaller companies usually don't have this training due to expense if they have any turnover rate at all. As others have said, it would be a good idea to have the POCO turn off the power before removing the cover since the breaker is questionable.

[Kdog76]

It looks more like this:

http://www.oodle.com/detail/Ite-1000-Amp-Type-Et-Circuit-Breaker-1200-Amp-Mp-Frame/1106213901/toccoa/

The handle on this one looks identical to the one I see through the metal cover - but keep in mind, I haven't seen the whole breaker.

Looks a molded case breaker.

[peter d]

Call the local ITE distributor to find out he's not even open.

:-?

ITE is Siemens/Murray. I'm assuming you went to a Siemens/Murray distributor? Or was it a used breaker place?

[mdshunk]

When you get into some of those bigger breakers, sometimes they can be semi-standardized frame sizes, where you can get a lot of things to fit.

[zog]

When you get into some of those bigger breakers, sometimes they can be semi-standardized frame sizes, where you can get a lot of things to fit.

Sorry, dosent work that way, believe me I wish it did.

[zog]

Havent seen a breaker type posted by the OP yet, so any guesses on where to get one or how much it will cost is pure speculation. We are by far the largest supplier of power circuit breakers in North America, most of those websites that were posted as examples dont actually have any breakers in stock, they just know who to call to order it.

I am also concerned about the lack of concern for the hazards with this job, use of PPE anmd safe work practices.

[mdshunk]

Sorry, dosent work that way, believe me I wish it did.
Then the Westinghouse/GE/ITE gear I just worked on two Tuesdays ago was my imagination? :D I should take a picture of the Zinsco/Challenger MDP that I'm going to add a breaker to coming up in the next few weeks.

[iwire]

Then the Westinghouse/GE/ITE gear I just worked on two Tuesdays ago was my imagination? :D I should take a picture of the Zinsco/Challenger MDP that I'm going to add a breaker to coming up in the next few weeks.

It seems your MO would have to change if you were getting inspections.

[mdshunk]

It seems your MO would have to change if you were getting inspections.

You're assuming too much. You should have said "...inspections by skilled inspectors."

[iwire]

You're assuming too much. You should have said "...inspections by skilled inspectors."

Yeah, that is something I would be proud to point out.

My work pases because the inspectors are bad.

[growler]

Yeah, that is something I would be proud to point out.

My work pases because the inspectors are bad.

It may sound bad but it does happen more than most people would think.

I tell customers to get inspections ( how important they are) but if anyone depends on inspections for code compliant work then they are taking their chances.

In the end it's really up to the EC.

[iwire]

It may sound bad but it does happen more than most people would think.

I never said it does not happen.

What I was saying is I would be ashamed to say that was why my work passes.

[satcom]

It may sound bad but it does happen more than most people would think.

I tell customers to get inspections ( how important they are) but if anyone depends on inspections for code compliant work then they are taking their chances.

In the end it's really up to the EC.

Am I reading this correct? "I tell customers to get inspections ( how important they are)"

Customers don't have a choice in my state, the law requires inspections, and I is our job, to file and seal, the permit, not the customers.

We have well trained inspectors, that have to meet tough standards to enter the profession, I do understand there are places where the inspectors, may not have such requirements. But never leave it to the customer to call for an inspection, protect your license, and liability exposure, file and follow up all inspections.

[growler]

Am I reading this correct? "I tell customers to get inspections ( how important they are)"

Customers don't have a choice in my state, the law requires inspections, and I is our job, to file and seal, the permit, not the customers.


When I do an electrical only job there is no problem with permits and inspections. I get the required permits.

If I look at a job tomorrow, a basement finish or room addition and the customer refuses to get a building permit all I can do is suggest that they get the job permitted. I turn the work down if it's done under the table but that doesn't keep the job from getting done ( actually about 50% of these jobs are done in an illegal manner). I used to turn people in for doing un-permited jobs but that doesn't make a lot of friends so now I only make suggestions. If I'm not doing the work then why should I care, no skin off my knuckles.

These days I just ask over the phone if they are going to permit the work and if they say no then I don't even bother to look at it. They will not issue an electrical permit without a building permit on a remodel, so I'm forced to pass up a lot of work.

[charlietuna]

Years ago a large office building asked us to upgrade a breaker fed off a bus duct riser manufacturered by ITE. All we had to do is set an 800 amp bust tap-480 volt three phase-four wire. There was an open space on the bus duct for the new breaker. I got the information off the bus duct's nameplate and ordered the breaker. The supply house called back and asked me "which side is the neutral bus was located. I called the ITE rep and asked him if there was any problem removing this access plate with the bus "HOT"! "NO PROBLEM" was his reply, "IT"S ALL PLASTIC"! Well there is a small retaining plate inside--- which caused quite an explosion !! the rep, to this day, swears the retailer was plastic??? Thank GOD no one was hurt !! I have come across some strange things around switchgear and offen wonder if they were factory installed or "rigged" in the field. Another major explosion was caused by a triangular steel plate that the 4000 amp switchgear's lifting eye was screwed into?? Apparently the paint held it in place after the lifting eye was removed---but later(5 years) it fell into the vault's bus stab -- major blow up!!!

[bjp_ne_elec]

I haven't taken a test lately but don't remember anything about the dangers of fault current being on it. Our test was over the NEC and did not include fault current calculations or the forces involved.

I would like to know what state does require a full and complete understanding, testing, or even a class on fault currents before taking a Masters exam.

bjp has come to a good spot for help.

Ptonsparky - thanks for the positive note. You're exactly right - I went through and IBEW JW training and did not receive anything on the dangers of arc fault - but I went through 20 years ago. So hopefully this has been added. Back then we didn't even have arc flash clothing even available - at least not to my knowledge. I did get some arc fault training from the result of this thread - and learned quite a bit - so I'm growing. I always say, if I end the day and didn't learn something new, than I didn't have a good day.

Some of the feedback was firm, and at first my pride was a little hurt - but the folks were only looking out for my safety - and I appreciate all the replies. Even the ones that seemed to question my credentials. This site has a great bunch of guys, and although my "feathers were a little ruffled" at some of the replies - each had a great point.

As it turns out, the folks in the condo association didn't wait for my return call. They got a guy to come over and he had no problem pulling the cover, adjusted the settings on the fuse, reset and handed them a bill. No megger, no arc flash protection - nadah. Twenty minutes after he walked away, the breaker tripped. I know someone who lives in one of the condo complex - not in the affected unit - but he said the guy basically was wearing jeans and a nylon jacket. Now I know enough that I wouldn't even think of having a nylon jacket on if I'm simply pulling a receptacle out of the wall.

As always, I learned from the feedback - and on this particular thread learned a TON! Thanks for all the feedback, as it was an education. I'm going to team up with an electrician that does have experience with this type of work, has arc flash gear, and is willing to have me tag along. We've recommended to the residents to assume temporary residence for a few days (heck they should be used to this as this area was without power for six days) and not to even think of resetting the breaker. We'll be getting the POCO to do the disconnect and then get in to the gear to see what's going on.

Thanks again

[lbwireman]

Let me add my agreement to what's been said by mxslick #14, charlietuna #15, buckofdurham #18 and fulthrotl #19. This is not a job to approach with the "I gotta learn somehow" attitude. 35 years + in this trade, a lot of service work both resi & comm have tought me that the words of my flight instructor, many years ago, re: pilots, apply equally to electricians.

"There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old, bold pilots."

Don't work this one hot. We'd like to continue enjoying your posts for years to come.:smile:

[charlietuna]

bjp,
No need to appolagize for not knowing anything in this trade! There are many,many facits of this industry that i know nothing about because i've never had the oppurtunity to work around them. And your customers don't know your expertice when they call you. I have had calls on programable controllers on big printing presses that i just had to tell the custormer to call the manufacturer. But i believe most of the comments listed were ment to lead you away from a dangerous situation.

As you told us about this guy adjusting the trip setpoint of this breaker and walking away i said "he'll be back"!!! Without knowing what the load is on this breaker--makes the statement that person is "just guessing" at what the problem is ! Breakers trip for a reason--and when they trip they are sending the operator a warning signal. Heed the warning and walk softly!! I know one building maintainance engineer that was called due to a 600 amp-480 volt breaker trip ! He found the tripped breaker and reset it- it tripped again with a load "pop" -- he reset it again and it blew the heavy panel cover right off the hinges braking his wrist in two places and burning 30 percent of him.

[mxslick]

Not to beat a dead horse here, but I found THIS VIDEO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LZ0q78OWZE&feature=related) of a breaker very similar to what the OP describes, and the results of an arc flash.

Remember this when you go to reset ANY breaker in questionable condition, or when the cause of the trip is unknown.

Edited to add: And of all of the arc flash incidents I've seen over the years, both in person and on video, this one rates as a medium blast..still plenty dangerous regardless.

[hillbilly1]

Years ago there was an IBEW journeyman that attempted to replaced a 200 amp 600 volt fuse for a lighting panel on a high rise in downtown Atlanta, Instead of turning off the disconnect and checking why the fuse blown the first time, he Donned his hot gloves and shoved the fuse in hot, there was a severe fault that blew the previous fuse, which was still there. It blew him out the door into the hallway. He did not live to tell of the experience. No matter how much training you have, ignoring common sense can be deadly. PPE would not have saved him.

[Fulthrotl]

I have come across some strange things around switchgear and offen wonder if they were factory installed or "rigged" in the field. Another major explosion was caused by a triangular steel plate that the 4000 amp switchgear's lifting eye was screwed into??

you just don't know, in some cases... there is stuff that makes my hair
stand on end.... something to give you pause for thought....

1982, texaco refinery, wilmington. cogen. two 70 mw turbines, methane fed.

switchgear was 34.5kv, 3000 amp bus. roll in breakers. made by a
now defunct company called abbot labs, in buena park, calif.
UL listed manufacturer, until that weekend, anyway.

thanksgiving weekend, wednesday night..... foreman asked if i could stay
an hour over, and pull some covers off the main gear, which was brand new
and going to get hipotted and meggered over the weekend, in preparation
for being put into service.

ct's were on tip out doors that were on back of gear, and when you
unfolded them, it disconnected them from the bus tabs.

disconnected the ct's, opened this and that according to the directions
of the muppets from hampton tedder, and they tried the hipot... wouldn't
make it. corona walking all over the bus tabs, cause they had sharp corners.

poor workmanship..... ok, down the test, and start pulling covers from the
main busway, in preparation for fixing the stuff.....

i wished i had a picture.... inside the main 34.5 kv bus chamber, in the
center of the gear, all the cables from the ct's had been ran thru 1/2"
flex for shielding. no fittings. the belden cables went thru 3/8" unbushed
holes in the bulkheads, and the flex was attached in place with ty raps
and STICKYBACKS. they had peeled loose, and the flex was dangling
about a foot above the bare bus... there were two stickybacks still
hanging on for dear life, and when they went, the 1/2" flex would drop
across a, b, & c phase... it would have made a lovely plasma ball...

there were six of us, and we stayed there on double time from wed.
afternoon till monday afternoon, and disassembled and rebuilt the gear,
under the eyes of the texaco engineers and attorneys, who brought
the cameras and donuts. food was brought in, and when you couldn't
stand it any more, you slept a couple hours in your car, and then came
back to work. five 24's. the money came to 240 straight time hours pay
without a break. they fed us, they wouldn't let us leave, and we had
to take the money.:D

and the resulting lawsuit bankrupted the switchgear manufacturer.

anyway..... i still remember that gear when i thiink i know exactly what
is going on inside a piece of UL listed gear.......:D