anybody ever tried this???

[Fulthrotl]

jill and i have a little hole in the wall italian place we like
to eat at. quiet, above average food, nice service.

it's a hole in the wall... i'm guessing 200 amp single
phase sub panel. strip mall. the voltage drop when
the garbage disposal or microwave kicks in takes all
the nicely dimmed incandescent lamps into the toilet.
they are already dimmed to maybe 60%, and any
voltage dips really shows.

anybody ever put a lighting circuit on a UPS to smooth
out this stuff? the bruchetta is great, the lighting sucks,
and it's all i can do to make it thru dinner without ripping
off his panel cover and throwing an amprobe on things.

any suggestions would help. it's getting difficult to make
it to dessert.


randy

[steelersman]

jill and i have a little hole in the wall italian place we like
to eat at. quiet, above average food, nice service.

it's a hole in the wall... i'm guessing 200 amp single
phase sub panel. strip mall. the voltage drop when
the garbage disposal or microwave kicks in takes all
the nicely dimmed incandescent lamps into the toilet.
they are already dimmed to maybe 60%, and any
voltage dips really shows.

anybody ever put a lighting circuit on a UPS to smooth
out this stuff? the bruchetta is great, the lighting sucks,
and it's all i can do to make it thru dinner without ripping
off his panel cover and throwing an amprobe on things.

any suggestions would help. it's getting difficult to make
it to dessert.


randy
I usually don't have room for dessert. Sorry no helpful info here. :)

[peter d]

jill and i

That doesn't work. Your name is not Jack.

[Minuteman]

Upgrade the service. Install a 320 and two new 200 amp panels. :smile:

[marcerrin]

Stop working and try to enjoy Jill's company.

[Buck Parrish]

You know, it could be some thing as, to small a wire at the weather head.
Or a bad connection, somewhere.

I have tried to not work at some of my favorite hang outs. It seems I almost always have to answer electrical questions during my meal.:wink:
On the other hand some times the meal is free.

I would tell the owner to call the poco first . The problem may be on their end.

[wireguru]

I doubt a UPS will like the load a dimmer presents to its output.

There are however, entertainment dimmers which can maintain a stable output even when the input voltage drops (cant boost though) the Electrol DX series does this. Probably too pricey for the place at about $2600 for a 12x 1.5kw per channel, or 6 x 2.4kw.

[Karl H]

jill and i have a little hole in the wall italian place we like
to eat at. quiet, above average food, nice service.

it's a hole in the wall... i'm guessing 200 amp single
phase sub panel. strip mall. the voltage drop when
the garbage disposal or microwave kicks in takes all
the nicely dimmed incandescent lamps into the toilet.
they are already dimmed to maybe 60%, and any
voltage dips really shows.

anybody ever put a lighting circuit on a UPS to smooth
out this stuff? the bruchetta is great, the lighting sucks,
and it's all i can do to make it thru dinner without ripping
off his panel cover and throwing an amprobe on things.

any suggestions would help. it's getting difficult to make
it to dessert.


randy

It's funny that you brought this up.My wife and I go
to this resturant that we love and everytime "Something"
cycles the lights dim.LIke every 5 minutes during dinner.
Drives me nuts then I drive my wife nuts makes for a great
evening. This place has great food and has every "Spot
the Violation" you can imagine.I think of this place as a
great meal and a NEC practice exam all in one. :D

[Fulthrotl]

That doesn't work. Your name is not Jack.

you don't know jack. it works great. :D

[quogueelectric]

It's funny that you brought this up.My wife and I go
to this resturant that we love and everytime "Something"
cycles the lights dim.LIke every 5 minutes during dinner.
Drives me nuts then I drive my wife nuts makes for a great
evening. This place has great food and has every "Spot
the Violation" you can imagine.I think of this place as a
great meal and a NEC practice exam all in one. :D

Now that is true love!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[peter d]

This place has great food and has every "Spot
the Violation" you can imagine.I think of this place as a
great meal and a NEC practice exam all in one. :D

That's funny...I thought that was the case for every restaurant in California. ;)

[Karl H]

Peter you were very observant while you were here!
WE could use an electrician of your stature here.
Are you experienced running 300v cable up around palm trees?

[Karl H]

Now that is true love!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The food or the wife?:D

[peter d]

Peter you were very observant while you were here!
WE could use an electrician of your stature here.
Are you experienced running 300v cable up around palm trees?

LOL.

Well you know what happens when you go to visit your friends and they know you are an electrician. "Can you install.....?" Let's say I might have made a few hack jobs "west coast style" while I was visiting there. :D

[Karl H]

LOL.

Well you know what happens when you go to visit your friends and they know you are an electrician. "Can you install.....?" Let's say I might have made a few hack jobs "west coast style" while I was visiting there. :D

I've got the T-shirt too Peter!

[Fulthrotl]

LOL.

Well you know what happens when you go to visit your friends and they know you are an electrician. "Can you install.....?" Let's say I might have made a few hack jobs "west coast style" while I was visiting there. :D

it isn't "west coast style" unless you are doing it wearing flip flops.
it's a rule we have here. sorry.

few years ago, a friend of mine was doing wal mart photo shop upgrades.
we crossed paths in las vegas, and i was helping him knock one out, so
we could go to dinner, and 'cause i was bored watching him work.

so, he comes walking in the door, and i am standing on the top step
of a 6' ladder, wearing flip flops.... the picture of OSHA compliance.....
peter, are you up to that....? west coast style is a tall order......8-)


randy

[Fulthrotl]

Stop working and try to enjoy Jill's company.

jill supports your point of view, and want's to know if you have
any single friends, after she kicks me to the curb.

[jrannis]

Somethings loose or burned. Or, they have a cheap or over loaded dimmer

[iwire]

I would not jump to any conclusions, it takes darn little voltage sag for our eyes to see it in incandescent lamps. I would use some type of recording meter (Fluke 87 for me) and see what the actual dip is.

[iaov]

I don't see a UPS solving this problem. This is probably a loose connection some where.

[charlietuna]

You said "STRIP MALL" ...... you may be wrong about service size....probably 100 amps and who knows how far it is to the service main??? What your seeing is voltage drop-- and it would be a heck of a lot cheaper to upgrade the service than to purchase a UPS large enough to help that lighting circuit.

[Karl H]

it isn't "west coast style" unless you are doing it wearing flip flops.
it's a rule we have here. sorry.

few years ago, a friend of mine was doing wal mart photo shop upgrades.
we crossed paths in las vegas, and i was helping him knock one out, so
we could go to dinner, and 'cause i was bored watching him work.

so, he comes walking in the door, and i am standing on the top step
of a 6' ladder, wearing flip flops.... the picture of OSHA compliance.....
peter, are you up to that....? west coast style is a tall order......8-)


randy

He's not kidding about the flip flops .
Oh and do'nt worry your service truck will have a surfboard rack
already installed.:D

[Minuteman]

Upgrade the service. Install a 320 and two new 200 amp panels. :smile:

Am I the only salesman here? :smile:

[iwire]

Am I the only salesman here? :smile:

The OP said......

i'm guessing 200 amp single
phase sub panel. strip mall.

In my area that would mean the landlord owns the service which will already be much larger then each tenants sub panel. I very much doubt that the restaurant owner is going to pay to increase the service size for the whole mall.

Even increasing the feeder is likely out of the restaurant owners budget particularly when everything is already working.

I wonder if the owner has even noticed the dimming, I think it is more of electricians affliction. :D

[Sparky555]

the voltage drop when
the garbage disposal or microwave kicks in takes all
the nicely dimmed incandescent lamps into the toilet.
they are already dimmed to maybe 60%, and any
voltage dips really shows.

any suggestions would help. it's getting difficult to make
it to dessert.


randy

Ask the owner to run the microwave & disposer continuously while you're dining.

[Minuteman]

So, do strip malls only have one meter in Massachusetts?

[iwire]

So, do strip malls only have one meter in Massachusetts?

No they may have dozens of meters but only one 'service'.

[charlietuna]

I owned 20 units and one of my tenants bought a silk screen tee shirt machine that drew 70 amps on his 100 amp service and his unit happened to be on the opposite end of the building away from the service. the new machine effected everything in his business! I upgraded his service to 150 amps to solve his problem and charged him my costs on labor and material. Had to take him to small claims court to get payed!! And he was a friend of mine !! Ain't that the way it always goes?

[Fulthrotl]

He's not kidding about the flip flops .
Oh and do'nt worry your service truck will have a surfboard rack
already installed.:D

they *all* have surfboard racks installed here.
the workaholics among us put ladders on them to
trick people, but we all know what they are
really for. i saw a sparky truck the other day, and
it had the tubes on the side for benders, and he had
a driver, a sand wedge, and a putter there instead.

priorities. what's really important always shows.
lets' the customer know where they are at on "the list".

randy

[lbwireman]

Here's an example. S. Cal upgrade/retrofit of 1 service, many meters.

2692

[Fulthrotl]

I wonder if the owner has even noticed the dimming, I think it is more of electricians affliction. :D

the other diners noticed it. my wife noticed it, and forbade me from
"going there".... after a deep, level 6 flicker, she looked at me and
said, with love in her eyes.... "don't go there....":D

[gar]

deleted .

[Fulthrotl]

You said "STRIP MALL" ...... you may be wrong about service size....probably 100 amps and who knows how far it is to the service main??? What your seeing is voltage drop-- and it would be a heck of a lot cheaper to upgrade the service than to purchase a UPS large enough to help that lighting circuit.

i was being optimistic. it's much more likely to be a 100 amp can than a
200 amp can. i just hated to say it....:D running a full kitchen on a 12
circuit dinky little panel.....:roll:

that's it.... no more fooling around..... 1,200 amp BUS DUCT! we'll get
rid of that nasty little flicker if it takes every penny the poor fellow has.

[gar]

090103-1345 EST

I would expect there are several hundred KVAs worth of transformers supplying this mall. In our area it could be an open delta with a wild leg. Our building, not a mall, but about 30,000 sq-ft has one large single phase transformer, ball park 175 KVA, and a smaller, maybe 75 KVA, supplying the wild leg. Air conditioners and other multi-horsepower motors do not cause noticeable flicker.

A while back we had a problem at the pole transformer connections. Arcing at both a hot and the neutral. Internally we would see a voltage drop on one side of the single phase supply and an increase on the other.

I suggest you monitor the line voltages at the business's main panel. Use three light bulbs. One on each phase at the input to the panel, and a 240 V bulb line to line. Now operate the devices that cause problems. What these lights do will tell you if there is a problem in the feeders to the panel.

If one 120 V light dims and the other 120 V light brightens, then there is a neutral problem. If the 240 V bulb dims and only one of the two 120 V dims, then there is one hot line problem. And so on.

If voltages look good at the panel input, then the problem is the internal wiring and/or how the circuits are organized.

.

[Karl H]

Here's an example. S. Cal upgrade/retrofit of 1 service, many meters.

2692

Yeah, I can tell that's a S.Cal uprade/retrofit.
Notice it comes with graffiti from the factory.

[Besoeker]

I would not jump to any conclusions, it takes darn little voltage sag for our eyes to see it in incandescent lamps. I would use some type of recording meter (Fluke 87 for me) and see what the actual dip is.
I agree. A relative minor supply voltage dip will catch the eye, and maybe the reduced voltage used by the dimmed lamps exacerbates the effect.
A UPS could fix the problem and there are dimmers around that offer stabilisation - as a company we make such things (but I'm not touting for business here).

for Fulthrotl:
If it's a hole-in-the wall and serves excellent food, accept it as part of the ambience and worth tolerating to eat well.

[iwire]

I think accept the ambiance is a great suggestion.


IMO no inexpensive UPS will fix this. You would need a online/double conversion UPS or line interactive UPS. The ones you buy at the big box are off line UPS and do not regulate voltage at all.

http://www.aelgroup.co.uk/pdf/wp_upsexplained.pdf

I think you would be better off with something like this

http://www.elect-spec.com/klr_$.htm

[peter d]

it isn't "west coast style" unless you are doing it wearing flip flops.
it's a rule we have here. sorry.

Oh. Well I was close. I was wearing shorts and a tshirt. No flip flops...I hate those things on any coast.

[Besoeker]

I think accept the ambiance is a great suggestion.
IMO no inexpensive UPS will fix this. You would need a online/double conversion UPS or line interactive UPS.
Agreed. But what is the total lighting load in dining area of the restaurant if it really is a "hole in the wall" kinda place?

[Minuteman]

No they may have dozens of meters but only one 'service'.

Yep, one service. Many meters. :cool:

Ever do a lease space upgrade? I have. All it takes is money.

that's it.... no more fooling around..... 1,200 amp BUS DUCT! we'll get rid of that nasty little flicker if it takes every penny the poor fellow has.


Now we're talking! :grin:

[iwire]

Ever do a lease space upgrade?

Too many to count, both office and retail.:smile:


All it takes is money.

Sure ..... but in my experience money is tough to get from hole in the wall restaurants and bars.:roll:

[Mr.Sparkle]

#1. You guys can't be EC's if you can afford to dine out.

#2. Working out of a van with surf racks while wearing flip flops? Oh wait, you will have to excuse me for a few minutes while I take off my 5 mil............................................... .................................................. ......
.................................................. .................................................. ......
.................................................. .................................................. .......
...............ok, that's better...now where was I.....Oh yeah that's right I was putting my house up for sale and moving to SoCal, who's hiring?

[lbwireman]

Yeah, I can tell that's a S.Cal uprade/retrofit.
Notice it comes with graffiti from the factory.

The graffiti was provided by local entrepreneurs w/in 18 hrs. of completion of the installation.

[Fulthrotl]

#2. Working out of a van with surf racks while wearing flip flops? Oh wait, you will have to excuse me for a few minutes while I take off my 5 mil.........................ok, that's better...now where was I.....Oh yeah that's right I was putting my house up for sale and moving to SoCal, who's hiring?

that happens every year. people watch the rose parade, and sell the ranch
and move here. you have cars with shiny new calif. plates and rusty fenders
every spring.

it's 38 degrees here this morning. :-? all those people musta drug *that*
weather with them when they came last year.

time to put on my insulated flip flops and get to work.