Dealing with inflexible workers

[mdshunk]

Say you have an employee who is... oh, 73 years 2 months and 14 days old. :smile:

This man is an excellent craftsman, and fairly productive. Does not complain about the symptoms of old age and shows up every day... BUT, this person is not flexible. This person thrives on a daily routine, which is good for construction work. Any deviation from a daily routine makes this person miserable, and he'll make anyone that will listen to him miserable.

What do you do? Just deal with it, and struggle to keep him doing the routine and predictable work OR fire him and take pot luck with another candidate OR counsel him?

[480sparky]

Gee, Marc, you sure don't look 73! :grin:



Put him to work doing prefab.

[mdshunk]

Put him to work doing prefab.:D I don't happen to have any, but I'm getting a little tired of the guy going from happy and content to major pain-in-the-butt in 1.3 seconds just for asking him to pull off and go run a service call or go someplace different today then he's been at for the last 5 days. I'm not quite sure how to handle it. The guy actually is 73.

[480sparky]

:D I don't happen to have any, but I'm getting a little tired of the guy going from happy and content to major pain-in-the-butt in 1.3 seconds just for asking him to pull off and go run a service call or go someplace different today then he's been at for the last 5 days. I'm not quite sure how to handle it. The guy actually is 73.

Sounds a bit bi-polar. Last time I worked with a guy who ran hot-and-cold, he was let go.

How big is your company? If it's big enough, you can always make enough prefab work for him. Even if it's putting pigtails on devices all day.

Maybe you should hint he stop what he's doing and head down to the unemployment office?

PS, Marc, empty your PM box a bit.

[Dennis Alwon]

The question is -- Is he making you money? and Is it worth the aggrevation? Only you can decide that. On the other end-- look at the chance to be a good samaritan.

[mdshunk]

[quote=Dennis Alwon;980406]The question is -- Is he making you money? Yes, he is productive. and Is it worth the aggrevation? That's the million dollar question. I'm not sure. Everyone has their quirks you have to work around, but this one ticks me off. Only you can decide that. On the other end-- look at the chance to be a good samaritan. Yes, I had considered that too.

[hardworkingstiff]

I think the way you worded things here sounded calm and thoughtfull. You addressed the problem, and showed concern for the worker. I wonder what would happen if you approached the worker with the same calm and thoughfullness.

He should understand, and if he doesn't, then I guess it's time to move on. I'm sure you'll keep good written documentation of the communication between you two.


EDIT: Marc, he does need to know who the boss is (if it comes to that).

[sgr1]

Some electricians can be real big whinners. I have one thats works for me, he is a good guy knows what he is doing and does what I tell him to, but he still complaims about everything. I just let it go in one ear and out the other. As long as he is making you money I won't worry about it. This guy is 65 by the way. Maybe it comes with age LOL. We are all getting there.

[SEO]

I'd have a talk with him and explain your dilema. It will be a much easier decision to make when you have a one on one with him.

[Fulthrotl]

Say you have an employee who is... oh, 73 years 2 months and 14 days old. :smile:

This man is an excellent craftsman, and fairly productive. Does not complain about the symptoms of old age and shows up every day... BUT, this person is not flexible. This person thrives on a daily routine, which is good for construction work. Any deviation from a daily routine makes this person miserable, and he'll make anyone that will listen to him miserable.

What do you do? Just deal with it, and struggle to keep him doing the routine and predictable work OR fire him and take pot luck with another candidate OR counsel him?

in a state of change, he's not comfortable, and feels unsure of what is
expected, and complains loudly so that nobody will think poorly of his
performance. as a result, people think poorly of his performance.

he's just creating his own worst fear, that he will be thought
"not good enough".

if you didn't value his craftsmanship, you'd have smoked him already,
so he's worth saving.

if it were me in your situation, i'd have a chat quietly on the side with
him, and explain how valuable his work and reliability are to you, and how
you make every effort to keep him working on stuff he likes doing.

but "the economy" being what it is, work is more changeable now,
and sometimes it'll be hard keeping people employed doing the
stuff they are best at, 'cause that isn't always available.

let him know you'll give him as much advance notice of changes
in the work picture as you are capable of.

some of these suggestions come from my wife, who is director of
compensation for a large health care provider. she is phenomenal
at getting people to do exactly what she wants, while thinking
it is their idea, and being happy to do it.

don't ask me how i know this.:smile:

anyway, the more advance notice you can give this guy, the less
he will crab about the changes. it smooths them out. he's adapting
at the highest level he's capable of, so him doing anything drastically
different at this point is not a realistic expectation. the less abrupt
the rate of change, the less complaining you'll hear.

good luck. it's a difficult situation.

randy

[Dennis Alwon]

Here is my opinion. Deal with it... He makes you money and that's partially what you are in business for. Try and avoid the situations that cause anguish for you and him. If the situation occurs when you have to get him to do something he doesn't want just start by saying "hey, I know you hate this but I have to.... would you mind helping me out here.."

On the other end I had a boss who would send me 30 miles to a job (commercial job) and then would call me up at noon and ask me to come back and hit a service call or two. I did that for a while but the GC was getting angry-- eventually when he called I told him I couldn't and he needed to deal with it. He never bothered me on that job again. :smile: I realize this is probably not your situation but I thought it would shed some feeling the worker may have.

[mdshunk]

If the situation occurs when you have to get him to do something he doesn't want just start by saying "hey, I know you hate this but I have to.... would you mind helping me out here.."
Yeah, I pretty much do that already, but I hate having to walk on eggshells when I'm the guy that's supposed to be in charge. A friend of mine (a plumber) suggested that next time he acts up, fire him, then hire him back in a couple days to see if that gets the message across.

[Dennis Alwon]

Yeah, I pretty much do that already, but I hate having to walk on eggshells when I'm the guy that's supposed to be in charge. A friend of mine (a plumber) suggested that next time he acts up, fire him, then hire him back in a couple days to see if that gets the message across.

If you do that he may feel indispensible. I bet he would say that you screwed up that's why you hired him back. Would make me more cocky..:D

[mdshunk]

If you do that he may feel indispensible. I bet he would say that you screwed up that's why you hired him back. Would make me more cocky..:D
I'll bet you're right. It wasn't an idea I was seriously considering, but I thought I'd add it to the mix.

[peter d]

Yeah, I pretty much do that already, but I hate having to walk on eggshells when I'm the guy that's supposed to be in charge.

That right there is why you should sack him immediately.

[220/221]

Geez dude! How flexible to you expect someone to be at SEVENTY THREE years old.

At 57, I can barely tie my shoes.

People become increasingly inflexible, both literally and figuratively, as they age. Don't try to change people just use them according to their strengths.

Expecting him to be comfortable outside a routine is no different than expecting a 19 year old to show up happy and ready to work Monday morning. It just aint gonna happen.

[Rockyd]

Send the guy home for a couple of days (maybe three), without pay, so that he has time to call around to other shops. He will discover that he has a good deal, and should be grateful that the door wasn't slammed.

By sending him home for a short time, it shows that this was a predisposed action, and that you are in charge. Being master of the game, often wakes others up when they realize it is you for the paycheck.

[mdshunk]

Geez dude! How flexible to you expect someone to be at SEVENTY THREE years old....
Expecting him to be comfortable outside a routine is no different than expecting a 19 year old to show up happy and ready to work Monday morning. It just aint gonna happen.
That, right there, is a pretty accurate summary of why I'm so torn on what to do. If they guy was 40, the problem would already be solved some way or another.

[Dennis Alwon]

That right there is why you should sack him immediately.

Hey Peter-- May I call you Ruthless...:D You and Danny DeVito

[peter d]

Hey Peter-- May I call you Ruthless...:D

He is the boss...he shouldn't have to walk on eggshells. That's all I was trying to say.

[mdshunk]

Hey Peter-- May I call you Ruthless...:D You and Danny DeVito
It's certainly not something I'm ruling out, but as they say, "the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know".

[Dennis Alwon]

He is the boss...he shouldn't have to walk on eggshells. That's all I was trying to say.

You see-- you do like Marc. You can hate me instead

[mdshunk]

In the mid-90's, I was working for a company and I gave a guy three days on the street as the final straw for a number of things. On the 4th day, when he returned, the SOB thanked me for the days off and said it was a nice vacation. I awarded him with a permanent vacation. :wink: I read in the paper, some years later, that he was arrested and jailed for robbing a jewelry store.

[Karl H]

You guys just need to have an "Old Fashion" man to man talk.
I've had a few Man to Man talks in my life and I think nothing
but postive came out of them. Well except when I learned
I was in the wrong.That really hurt but I changed my ways.

[mdshunk]

It's times like this when I have to stop and ask myself, "What would the much older and wiser Bob Badger do?" (or, what would e57 do?) :D

[peter d]

You see-- you do like Marc. You can hate me instead

Fine, I guess I'll tell you about the dart board I have in the basement with Marc's picture on it.

All kidding aside, either the boss is the commander in chief or he isn't. Having to bend to the whims of his workers puts the boss at a position of weakness IMO, and that really shouldn't be allowed to stand for very long IMO. Of course productivity does make it more tolerable but in the long run I see nothing but problems.

[iwire]

That right there is why you should sack him immediately.

Then Marc's Ma will be upset with him because Pa will need be hanging around the house.

[mdshunk]

You guys just need to have an "Old Fashion" man to man talk.
I've had a few Man to Man talks in my life and I think nothing
but postive came out of them. Well except when I learned
I was in the wrong.That really hurt but I changed my ways.
Yes, it's becoming clear that this might be the resolution. or, at a minimum, I need to do it. I'm not ashamed, frankly, to admit that I'm a bit intimidated to have such a talk with a man that's older than my dad. I can do it, but it's going to be one of the most uncomfortable things I've had to do in a very long time.

[peter d]

Then Marc's Ma will be upset with him because Pa will need be hanging around the house.

Hilarious. :D

[mdshunk]

Then Marc's Ma will be upset with him because Pa will need be hanging around the house.
:D My dad was a carpenter.

[mkgrady]

Say you have an employee who is... oh, 73 years 2 months and 14 days old. :smile:

What do you do? Just deal with it, and struggle to keep him doing the routine and predictable work OR fire him and take pot luck with another candidate OR counsel him?

I would be concerned about an age discrimination law suit if you fire him.

Mike

[Rockyd]

I was working for a company and I gave a guy three days on the street as the final straw for a number of things. On the 4th day, when he returned, the SOB thanked me for the days off and said it was a nice vacation.

At that point, everyone in the front office will know that he is FIRED, and lucky that I'm not up for assault charges. When I'm sucker punched from behind, consequences need to be fast and furious.

[mdshunk]

I would be concerned about an age discrimination law suit if you fire him.
I wouldn't even give that a moment's thought. I wouldn't be firing him because of his age. Matter of fact, other than this particular personality flaw, the guy's a rock star in my mind. The fact that he is old has nothing to do with the reason I'd have to fire him. He's an at will employee anyhow. I don't even need a reason, frankly.

[Dennis Alwon]

Fine, I guess I'll tell you about the dart board I have in the basement with Marc's picture on it.

I can understand why you would have this photo of him on the dart board.
http://s153.photobucket.com/albums/s233/dalwon/th_marc.jpg


All kidding aside, either the boss is the commander in chief or he isn't. Having to bend to the whims of his workers puts the boss at a position of weakness IMO, and that really shouldn't be allowed to stand for very long IMO. Of course productivity does make it more tolerable but in the long run I see nothing but problems.

It's not all about being the commander. Trust me, he knows where the paycheck is coming from. Firing him without a heart to heart talk is just not right in my book. There will never be an employee, friend, family member, spouse, etc that will have every quality that you would expect of them. Sometimes our expectations are too high.

[peter d]

Matter of fact, other than this particular personality flaw, the guy's a rock star in my mind.

A rock star? :confused:

[nakulak]

tell him to shut up and stop whining. sounds like one of you needs a vacation.

[480sparky]

I wouldn't even give that a moment's thought. I wouldn't be firing him because of his age. Matter of fact, other than this particular personality flaw, the guy's a rock star in my mind. The fact that he is old has nothing to do with the reason I'd have to fire him. He's an at will employee anyhow. I don't even need a reason, frankly.

Fire him for no reason, and he gets unemployment. Have good cause, and he's doesn't.

Besides, that won't prevent him from at least suing you, cause or not. CYA by documenting what you did prior to termination (if that's the route you're taking). Once his legal eagles know your side of story, they'll realize there's no payday in it for them.

[Karl H]

Yes, it's becoming clear that this might be the resolution. or, at a minimum, I need to do it. I'm not ashamed, frankly, to admit that I'm a bit intimidated to have such a talk with a man that's older than my dad. I can do it, but it's going to be one of the most uncomfortable things I've had to do in a very long time.

I'm here to tell you it is not easy,but neither is the working
relationship you have with this man now.

[peter d]

It's not all about being the commander. Trust me, he knows where the paycheck is coming from. Firing him without a heart to heart talk is just not right in my book. There will never be an employee, friend, family member, spouse, etc that will have every quality that you would expect of them. Sometimes our expectations are too high.

True, but right now the labor pool is pretty heavy with good talent. I think Marc is in a good place to be particular with who he hires and not have to deal with stuff like this.

[mdshunk]

A rock star? :confused:
Yeah, like a really old rock star. Maybe like Gene Simmons? :D

[480sparky]

True, but right now the labor pool is pretty heavy with good talent. I think Marc is in a good place to be particular with who he hires and not have to deal with stuff like this.

Word has it he may have a position open up soon.... Maybe you ought to apply, Pete!

[peter d]

Word has it he may have a position open up soon.... Maybe you ought to apply, Pete!

We look too much alike...people would get us confused.

[Karl H]

Dennis I almost fell out of my chair laughing at your
photo in post #34! Good Show!

If you've been on this forum for awhile and you do'nt
laugh at that.Your a machine!:D

[mkgrady]

He's an at will employee anyhow. I don't even need a reason, frankly.

I agree with you, but I have seen numerous discrimination suits in our trade where an at will employee in a protected class (over 40, race, gender, etc.) filed a suit after being let go. In every case the lawyers made a lot of money for very little work. In every case the plaintiff walked away with some money they didn't deserve.

[220/221]

Peter. There is a LOT more top being a boss than simply being a strong authority figure. In a black and white world with an unlimited and equal labor supply, a bosses job would be easy. Just fire #25146 and #25147 would step right in.

Being a small contractor requires the OWNERS to be the flexible ones. We have to look at the strengths and weaknesses of all the people that work for us and determine how to best utilize them.

You are not going to get perfection. If he was perfect, he wouldn't be working for you.

If he is 73 and still earning money, there is no problem. You KNOW is capabilities and his limitations. Use that info and build a solid working relationship. Don't ruin the last few years of the old guy's life by trying to change him. Sit down and tell him how glad you are to have him working with you.

[growler]

If he is 73 and still earning money, there is no problem. You KNOW is capabilities and his limitations. Use that info and build a solid working relationship. Don't ruin the last few years of the old guy's life by trying to change him. Sit down and tell him how glad you are to have him working with you.

I like that attitude. I was thinking that maybe he could just ask the man in some informal way what the problem is.

Some people at that age and even earlier in life have trouble with finding their way to different jobs and then dealing with a strange situations. At that age maybe he needs to work with a helper or something.

Instead of trying to get him to perform as a full blown journeyman, have him work at a reduced rate doing easier jobs with the assisance of someone younger.

My ex-business partner had to get a helper just because he had trouble driving in the city and he wasn't that old. The stress was just to much for him.

[brian john]

Say you have an employee who is... oh, 73 years 2 months and 14 days old. :smile:
Does not complain about the symptoms of old age and shows up every day... BUT, this person is not flexible.


I had a guy like this once drove my bonkers as a vast majority of our work is emergency and requires moving form job to job. In addition he was a complainer. He made it easy I caught him cutting up and stripping copper on a job.

[peter d]

Peter. There is a LOT more top being a boss than simply being a strong authority figure. In a black and white world with an unlimited and equal labor supply, a bosses job would be easy. Just fire #25146 and #25147 would step right in.

Being a small contractor requires the OWNERS to be the flexible ones. We have to look at the strengths and weaknesses of all the people that work for us and determine how to best utilize them.

You are not going to get perfection. If he was perfect, he wouldn't be working for you.

If he is 73 and still earning money, there is no problem. You KNOW is capabilities and his limitations. Use that info and build a solid working relationship. Don't ruin the last few years of the old guy's life by trying to change him. Sit down and tell him how glad you are to have him working with you.

Uh huh. I still don't think Marc having to walk on eggshells to talk to his own employee is a good thing, and I stand by that. I also can see the predicament Marc is in because this guy sounds like a good worker.

[Karl H]

Firing a man that's not accountable is easy.Firing a man for stealing
is easier.Confronting a good man is difficult and usually more
positive than negative.

[ceb58]

The guy is 73 years old. He still wants to be productive. I have seen people that retire and do nothing and they are dead in a few years.
The next time he starts complaining just tell him in a light hearted way " look you old fart, I need you to do this and quit whining like a little girl"
His complaining is nothing more than wanting/needing some attention. We do not know what this guy faces when he goes home at the end of the day. I personally hope that when I am 73 I am still out there aggravating the crap out of some one like Marc.:grin:

[Power Tech]

Uh huh. I still don't think Marc having to walk on eggshells to talk to his own employee is a good thing, and I stand by that. I also can see the predicament Marc is in because this guy sounds like a good worker.

I once had a dog that I did not like. I got another dog and then first dog looked realy good.

[Karl H]

I personally hope that when I am 73 I am still out there aggravating the crap out of some one like Marc.

Now that's funny!:D

[boboelectric]

You're the Boss?Have a cup of coffee and talk it over.

[cadpoint]

Yes, it's becoming clear that this might be the resolution. or, at a minimum, I need to do it. I'm not ashamed, frankly, to admit that I'm a bit intimidated to have such a talk with a man that's older than my dad. I can do it, but it's going to be one of the most uncomfortable things I've had to do in a very long time.

Positive reinforcement, I really like that one too! But sit sounds like your flipping a coin already!

Remind him what year this is, remind him how long he's been with you, or whatever left that matters to him!
I would have the man to man with him, with nothing left un-said!
Based on how he responds, featuring either the BOO look, SAD eyes, or anger!

Any of those responses I would proceed to have then officially put Him on Notice, and explain to him why this is the First and Last Time. That you'll over putting up with it. That as a man he should not be compaining as to the nature of the work, Period. You can point out your postion, what his position is, what is required by having a position with-in your company!

I would be concerned about an age discrimination law suit if you fire him.
Mike

He was given Notice!

Peter. There is a LOT more top being a boss than simply being a strong authority figure. In a black and white world with an unlimited and equal labor supply, a bosses job would be easy. Just fire #25146 and #25147 would step right in.

Being a small contractor requires the OWNERS to be the flexible ones. We have to look at the strengths and weaknesses of all the people that work for us and determine how to best utilize them.

You are not going to get perfection. If he was perfect, he wouldn't be working for you.

If he is 73 and still earning money, there is no problem. You KNOW is capabilities and his limitations. Use that info and build a solid working relationship. Don't ruin the last few years of the old guy's life by trying to change him. Sit down and tell him how glad you are to have him working with you.

Other fine points that you could use as you give notice.

I'm not much for conversations at work, I hate talking a job to death, it's just work, lets go, we ain't left yet!

[Pierre C Belarge]

Fire him for no reason, and he gets unemployment. Have good cause, and he's doesn't.

Besides, that won't prevent him from at least suing you, cause or not. CYA by documenting what you did prior to termination (if that's the route you're taking). Once his legal eagles know your side of story, they'll realize there's no payday in it for them.


I cannot speak for the labor laws outside of NY, but what you mention above would not be true in NY.
Firing for any reason will still lead to unemployment payments. It just may delay them for a couple of weeks.

Firing an employee today is not like it was just 10 years ago. Employees have many more venues to collect in some way, than in the past.

[ichimo23]

I had to laugh when i read this post, as we have the exact situation at the company where i work. I would even say it's a bit worse where we are, as the geezer thinks he has the 'right of refusal' on any task. He exercises this right at least a couple of times a week. When enough people complained to the boss (about 25 years younger than the geezer), he finally took some action. The next time he acted up, the boss just said "well, it looks like you need to take the rest of the day off. See you tomorrow" That usually cures the situation for a least a few weeks.

[alfiesauce]

My boss deals with this on a daily basis as well. The guy he deals with is his father in law.
They both get on each others nerves something horrible some days... But... The old man knows some great tricks to get a guy out of a bind.
Just make sure you don't start thinking about ways to knock the guy off.

[Kdog76]

Say you have an employee who is... oh, 73 years 2 months and 14 days old. :smile:

This man is an excellent craftsman, and fairly productive. Does not complain about the symptoms of old age and shows up every day... BUT, this person is not flexible. This person thrives on a daily routine, which is good for construction work. Any deviation from a daily routine makes this person miserable, and he'll make anyone that will listen to him miserable.

What do you do? Just deal with it, and struggle to keep him doing the routine and predictable work OR fire him and take pot luck with another candidate OR counsel him?

Routine? Ha! Without OVERDOING it I'd keep the old guy going from job to job with me for a few days...You could say something like "When we can stay on a job, great, but we HAVE to get caught up with these other service calls here, and we got to prioritize our good customers first." My last employer would tell me " You got to take care of your bread & butter accounts."
Give him a heads up first... Let him know in advance " Hey, these next couple weeks are going to keep us moving around a lot, no way we can stay on this one all the time" Keep him focused on the WORK. The WORK is the only routine, not a particular job. He starts to complain, you just keep him focused on the WORK that wherever it is, whenever it is. And you can try to make it a little fun for the old guy. Take him out for lunch or a coffee break, and turn around his complaining to stay focused on the WORK.

[electricmanscott]

I didn't read all the replies but somebody PLEASE kill me if I am still doing this crap at 73. Come to think of it 63 would be better.

[cadpoint]

I didn't read all the replies but somebody PLEASE kill me if I am still doing this crap at 73. Come to think of it 63 would be better.


Come on Man, your the lead man for "eat up with it" we're all following you...

[EBFD6]

I didn't read all the replies but somebody PLEASE kill me if I am still doing this crap at 73. Come to think of it 63 would be better.

I was thinking the same thing, by the time I'm 73 I had better be working on ten years of experience in retirement.

I don't know how guys even work into their sixties, never mind seventy. I'm 29 and quite honestly I don't want to be doing this crap when I'm 50. I had better be a PM, service manager, estimator, inspector, or something else, but I definitely will not be doing physical labor day in and day out.

In our shop (approx 65 field guys) we have 3 guys over 50 in the field and I would guess more than half of the company (probably more like 2/3) is under 35.

[480sparky]

I didn't read all the replies but somebody PLEASE kill me if I am still doing this crap at 73. Come to think of it 63 would be better.

Heck, if I make it to 73, I'd be tickled pink if I could still be puttin on a tool pouch every day.

[G0049]

[QUOTE I can do it, but it's going to be one of the most uncomfortable things I've had to do in a very long time.[/QUOTE]

I know that feeling. I've had to do this a few times over the years. One thing I've learned is that [U]thinking[U] about it is worse than actually doing it. Let the guy know that its not your favorite thing to do, but you think he's worth it.

Good luck.

[realolman]

One man's inflexibility is another man's focus.

Some people, even employees (gasp) think ahead and plan what they are going to do, how they are going to do it, and rightfully resent being thrown off track by someone who perhaps isn't planning or communicating as well as he might.

Maintaining the workplace's order and flow, by anticipating , ordering, moving and placing tools and materials can be the difference between a smooth flowing and mistake minimized job and a cluster flock. Because you don't do jobs twice to see which way works better, problems that have been averted are not appreciated.

A cocky dunce who wants to go around threatening to fire every one because "he's the boss" probably wouldn't even recognize the difference... and certainly wouldn't know why.

You may have the legal right to do a lot of things as someone's employer, but morally, as a human being, you need to make sure you are worthy of being someone else's boss.

There is only one way to avoid getting older, so when you live long enough, you will be old too. Strangely enough, you may discover that you know more then than you do now, and you might find that you don't know much of anything for sure.


I'm curious why a 73 year old man would be the go to guy for crises anyway? Especially if you know he doesn't like it. Why not just let him do his thing if his thing is productive?


I think electricmanscott is right...you should probably just kill him... :D

[Fulthrotl]

I didn't read all the replies but somebody PLEASE kill me if I am still doing this crap at 73. Come to think of it 63 would be better.

how old are you now scott? i'll set a date in outlook.... :D

always glad to help out when i can....
will your preference be 63.... or 73?

[Ed Carr]

Heck, if I make it to 73, I'd be tickled pink if I could still be puttin on a tool pouch every day.

Me too Sparky...I'd rather be working at something
than sitting on my arse waiting for tomorrow!
We are the doers,the builders the guys and gals
that make things and keep things running.
There aren't too many roads around here I can
drive down without seeing some of my own work.
Makes me feel good!

Marc, just talk to this guy like you have talked to us hear.
I'm sure you will both come to a mutual understanding.
This man I'm sure is not aware of the trouble he is causing you to feel
and when he finds out, I feel he will come around.
Hey the older I get,the less tolerant of things I get.
BTW Marc,how old are you :grin:

[mdshunk]

Ed, nobody's really ever asked, but I'm 38.

[Ed Carr]

Ed, nobody's really ever asked, but I'm 38.

My father last spring at his 83rd birthday

"oh to be 80 again"

Ed

[480sparky]

Ed, nobody's really ever asked, but I'm 38.

No you're not. You're just celebrating the 19th anniversary of your 19th birthday. http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Emoticons/Emoticonbirthdayparty.gif

[mattsilkwood]

Heck, if I make it to 73, I'd be tickled pink if I could still be puttin on a tool pouch every day.i hear ya. if i make it to 73 and all i can do is fart and fish shoot me:D.

i think its great that the guy still wants to work.
as for the problem i agree with most that a man to man is the best course of action.

weve got a guy about like that, 65 i think, and he can be a royal pita some times, but i like to work with him because of all the experience he has. no matter what it is hes probably seen it at some point in time.

good luck.

[mdshunk]

I've gotta tell you guys, this73 year old can out work most guys half his age. He's built like an ox. He's got my respect for that alone, which is why what Ive got to do is going to be rough.

[Fulthrotl]

Maintaining the workplace's order and flow, by anticipating , ordering, moving and placing tools and materials can be the difference between a smooth flowing and mistake minimized job and a cluster flock. Because you don't do jobs twice to see which way works better, problems that have been averted are not appreciated.:D

when i was an apprentice, and full of ego and arrogance, (not humble
like i am now....:smile:) i was put to work with a guy who was 68. i was 24.

i thought... this is gonna suck... i'm gonna have to carry his tool bucky
cause he won't be able to carry it and use his walker at the same time.

pride goeth before the fall. it took almost a week for me to figure out
i was badly outclassed, both in quality and volume of work.
(we were doing 2x4 lighting and small emt).

he never wasted a move. everything flowed. he never had to change
anything. everything fit. he never rushed. he didn't have to. i could work
circles around him, and it didn't matter. at the end of the day, he'd have
more stuff in the air, and it would look better. nothing missed, no go backs.

and he'd grin watching me try to keep up. never said a word. he didn't even
talk much at lunch. just silence, and the experience of watching someone
with 45 years of experience, who was good at his craft, walk circles around
someone.

about two weeks went by, and one day at lunch, he said quietly
"i'd been a journeyman 8 years before it really all started to come
together for me. i don't think it'll take you that long."

it sticks with me still that it's one of the nicest compliments i think
i've ever gotten.

if i make 73, i'll still have a hand in. probably not as much, and not as
hard, but i'll still want to play. will i still be working with the tools?
some. i like it. hopefully it won't be about needing the money.

what else would i do? watch law and order reruns? kill me now.


randy

[Fulthrotl]

I've gotta tell you guys, this73 year old can out work most guys half his age. He's built like an ox. He's got my respect for that alone, which is why what Ive got to do is going to be rough.

your message box is full, and won't accept private messages.

gimme a call.


randy

[peter d]

your message box is full, and won't accept private messages.

gimme a call.


randy

When you're done talking to Randy, give me a call too. (123) 456-7890

[Short.Circuit]

one of my continuing ed. teachers was in his 70s. old time
electrician. good guy, very wise. i remember him sharing with our
class, that if he didn't learn something new, from training an
apprentice, he didn't want them. marc, if your employee is online,
get him onthe forum.

[cadpoint]

Why we taken this private now... the thread is in the 70's the dude is double parked all the time!

[Kdog76]

When you're done talking to Randy, give me a call too. (123) 456-7890

LMAO... AH it's good to find some a little comic relief once in a while.:smile:
But I really doubt the old guy would get online with us...Nice try though.

[220/221]

Pros

1) excellent craftsman,

2) fairly productive.

3) shows up every day

4) thrives on a daily routine, which is good for construction work.


Cons

1) Any deviation from a daily routine makes this person miserable,



What do you do? Just deal with it, and struggle to keep him doing the routine and predictable work OR fire him and take pot luck with another candidate OR counsel him?


How much of a struggle is it really?

1) If it's too much struggle for you then let him go.

2) If you replace him, what will the ratio of pros/cons of a new guy be?

3) Don't try to counsel him. You can talk to him, man to man but trying to change his ways will be a lose/lose situation.

Personally, even if it was only a wash, I would keep him on.

[peter d]

LMAO... AH it's good to find some a little comic relief once in a while.:smile:

Indeed. I come here to get a laugh just as much as I do to learn something new or get advice. 8-) :smile:

[jrannis]

I think you knew the answer but just wanted to vent. You know your poison, either way wont really matter.

[ashtrak]

You guys just need to have an "Old Fashion" man to man talk.
I've had a few Man to Man talks in my life and I think nothing
but postive came out of them. Well except when I learned
I was in the wrong.That really hurt but I changed my ways.

We call it a group hug where I work.They work great unless you hug the wrong guy....

[prh1700]

I doubt this guy even knows he is bring a PITA about dragging up and hitting another job for you. I have to agree with the majority. Have a talk with him. I find it best away from the jobsite. Take him to lunch. This is the kind of guy that will give you some of the best workers you have ever had. I was humbled more than once as an apprentice by "old" men at the end of a day!! And boy did I learn a LOT from them. By the way, I alwayd found that guys worked their hardest for the boss that cared.

[petersonra]

Say you have an employee who is... oh, 73 years 2 months and 14 days old. :smile:

This man is an excellent craftsman, and fairly productive. Does not complain about the symptoms of old age and shows up every day... BUT, this person is not flexible. This person thrives on a daily routine, which is good for construction work. Any deviation from a daily routine makes this person miserable, and he'll make anyone that will listen to him miserable.

What do you do? Just deal with it, and struggle to keep him doing the routine and predictable work OR fire him and take pot luck with another candidate OR counsel him?

1. Older workers tend to be more oriented toward routine.

2. Older workers tend to be more productive at doing those kind of tasks.

Why do you want to screw up a good thing for you? So he is a bit of a curmudgeon. Big deal.

Put him to work doing what he does well for you and know that at the end of the day you made good money off his work.

[mxslick]

You KNOW is capabilities and his limitations. Use that info and build a solid working relationship. Don't ruin the last few years of the old guy's life by trying to change him. Sit down and tell him how glad you are to have him working with you.

Best advice I heard in this thread. I had a dear colleague in the cinema biz who was just as set in his ways and could be a royal pain in the butt to work with...but not only did the customers love his "crotchety old man" routine, but the guy was a genius and could find any part or equipment through his many industry connections.

When he died I lost a valuable source of information and resources, and a very dear friend. (R.I.P. Conrad L. Button)

The point to this is, Marc, that despite his drawbacks, this man is a valuable part of your team, and if he's not causing disruption or attitude problems with your other employees, leave him be, enjoy his productivity while he's still willing and able to work with you. :)

[cschmid]

I just hope at 73 I can show up and pull a full days worth of work and feel like a productive member od society..

So mark be the bigger man and use his expertise to benefit your bottom line and make his end of times happy..I know you can do it..

Remeber to live your life as it is your only chance to make a difference..You do have an opportunity right in front of you..

[LarryFine]

They work great unless you hug the wrong guy....Or the right guy. :roll:

[K2X]

I would make the guy part time -on call. At 73 hopefully he doesn't need the check every week. I'd let him do the work he wants to do with the understanding he may not get 40 every week... I'm part time-on call. I always get more hours than i want.

[ITO]

Say you have an employee who is... oh, 73 years 2 months and 14 days old. :smile:

...

What do you do? Just deal with it, and struggle to keep him doing the routine and predictable work OR fire him and take pot luck with another candidate OR counsel him?

I dunno Mark this is staring to sound like a leadership problem. Maybe you are just not trying hard enough.

[benaround]

What do you do? Just deal with it, and struggle to keep him doing the routine and predictable work


Just deal with it. Is it really a " struggle " to keep him aboard ? You don't have to struggle

with any of the other guys that work for you ? Marc, IMO as the boss you have to be a

cut above the average Joe, It's why you get the respect that you get. At 73 I don't see

any new lessons being learned by this guy, It's not ALL about the bottom line ALL of the

time. That's why I say 'just deal with it'.

[billdozier]

Man Ive got to give this guy props. I simpily can not imagine showing up at work every day at his age. Heck Doing this in twenty years scares the hell out of me. One of the reasons I hope to be a pm by that time. Put my tools on when I can to stay healthy but not because I have to. If I were you mark Id keep the guy. Im sure he teaches your young guys and inspires them Weve got an oldtimer 50+ who outworks each one of us. That inspires each of us to try better So what did you end up doing Mark inquiering minds want to know

[ohm]

one of my continuing ed. teachers was in his 70s. old time
electrician. good guy, very wise. i remember him sharing with our
class, that if he didn't learn something new, from training an
apprentice, he didn't want them. marc, if your employee is online,
get him onthe forum.


And if he's not into computers print out this thread for him.

[SparknMike]

As someone that has had to manage quite a few people, including under the supervision of a large corporate HR department, I'll offer my take on the situation. As with everything, take what you will and do what you feel is right. :cool:

First, at his age you can't simply terminate him as if this were the 1950's. As I have been educated in the matter, and I am sure that I am not all-knowing about the subject, the only way you can properly terminate him is to provide him several months of opportunities to improve while documenting his expectations and failures. Each document should be signed by you, him, and a witness. Every meeting or discussion on the matter should have at least one witness that understands the situation. Even then, it is surprising what people can get away with in court. The only up side I have found to this process is that you rarely have to terminate someone because they will get the picture long before they reach the end of the rope.

If this process comes as a bit of a surprise I would recommend reading up on the matter so that there are no surprises when you fire that special person that feels compelled to make a legal stand.

Secondarily, I don't know your company well enough to know how many people you have working for you but it can matter in this situation. People are always a mixed bag, and the better the mix (fewer weaknesses, more strengths) the more the employee is worth. In the end the mix of employees need to balance out to meet the company's demands, with one employee's strength balancing out another's weakness. The more people in a company the easier it tends to be to live with extreme weaknesses. If you can get the things done you need done, and get them done well, then it would seem that your mix of employees works. Unless you really feel confident you can replace him with someone else who will help your company do substantially better or will work for substantially less pay there isn't much of a reason to terminate him.

There are two exceptions for which I would consider terminating him even if the business is working as it should. One would be if his attitude, when it is degrading, is being passed to other employees. This is a bad situation that can cause major issues and take a tremendous effort to repair. I have had to repair such damage in a company before and the cure took over a year of constant effort along with turning over about a fourth of the people affected. After having administered the cure I would be quick to prevent the disease.

The other exception is if this is simply not a situation you can deal with yourself. I consider coping with the personality differences and discomforts part of being a manager. Honestly, if I only hired people that I really liked I would be likely to build an unbalanced company consisting of employees with similar strengths and weaknesses to my own. Still, jokes aside, managers are humans and there are limits to what they can cope with before becoming a problem themselves. If this is the situation it can be trickier to properly terminate someone because the bigger reason for terminating the employee is the fact that he pushes the boss's buttons.

I have a similar situation myself, and as of yet I have not terminated the guy. The only difference is that instead of an attitude problem his work quality just goes through the floor. To make a long story short, in the end we get done what we need to get done, I keep pushing him on ways to improve, and for his pay all I can do is exchange him for another employee with equal but different weaknesses. In my company I already have enough people who would be more like what I would typically get for his pay, so I really *need* him to stay and balance them out. Over time I am trying to improve other people as well so that, perhaps, one day I can replace him with a more typical person.

As an old guy I work with likes to point out, only people who have never had to manage people think managing people is a great thing. :rolleyes:

[ohm]

Well said Mike, the perfect employee has not been created. Ones with terrific skills may have bad attitudes and those with good attitudes may not have such good skills.

Companies spend a lot training new hires and most of it isn't in a classroom. So termination is usually the last resort, especially if the people waiting in line for the job don't have much more to offer.

In short managing people is lots harder than it appears for technical people. Which is probably the reason you don't see many CEO's who were good engineers.

[wawireguy]

Why not get someone else that thrives on changing things up while keeping this guy on those projects where he doesn't have to run around. Lots of electricians, me included, like to vary things up as much as possible. Maybe you just need someone else to goto for those service calls.

[cschmid]

now there are some words of wisdom..managing is just that managing..that is a whole lot of work..:D

Now lets see how I do on the opossite side of the fence..now that I am not managing..

[hardworkingstiff]

in short managing people is lots harder than it appears for technical people.

amen amen amen!!!

[bradleyelectric]

Has the original poster chimed back in as to how he resolved this situation?

[Volta]

Has the original poster chimed back in as to how he resolved this situation?

Funny thing about that . . .

[ramsy]

this 73 year old can out work most guys half his age. He's built like an ox. ..which is why what Ive got to do is going to be rough.

What happened to mdshunk? Did this 73-yr old ox go Postal?

Unfortunately, my Union days proved people skills were less value than domination contests.

Unfortunate, since little could be learned from the seniors before removed by contractors culling the heard. If no longer the strongest ox, mother nature rotates the lineup for the next pissing contest.

If healthy at 73 I'd want to be active too. I understand insubordination is infectious, but true honor is to die in battle.

[iwire]

Has the original poster chimed back in as to how he resolved this situation?

That will not be happening, the OP has left the building.

[Karl H]

IMO this thread should be closed. Unless the OP can still read the responses.

I'm not sure how a "Banning" works. No I don't want to find out either!!:D

[ramsy]

No worries. Forum rats re-incarnate into different animals. Marc will be back.
I've spend time with my nose in the corner too. I was let back after being a good sport.

[SmithBuilt]

IMO this thread should be closed. Unless the OP can still read the responses.

I'm not sure how a "Banning" works. No I don't want to find out either!!:D



I'm going to respectfully disagree. I learned something form SparknMike's post. I have truthfully learned more from searching old posts than from posting myself. There's probably no way to measure how much has been learned from this forum. It's better than any CE class I've been to.

[Fulthrotl]

Has the original poster chimed back in as to how he resolved this situation?

quit poking with that stick.......

[Karl H]

I'm going to respectfully disagree. I learned something form SparknMike's post. I have truthfully learned more from searching old posts than from posting myself. There's probably no way to measure how much has been learned from this forum. It's better than any CE class I've been to.

That's cool. :smile:

[cadpoint]

....
I have truthfully learned more from searching old posts than from posting myself. There's probably no way to measure how much has been learned from this forum. It's better than any CE class I've been to.

That's cool. :smile:

It is more than just cool ! OK, JMO!

Be Safe, Look Safe, Act Safe ... Happy Monday!

[chris kennedy]

Happy Monday!Thats just plain wrong.

[dezwitinc]

Geez dude! How flexible to you expect someone to be at SEVENTY THREE years old.

At 57, I can barely tie my shoes.


And I thought that I was the oldest one hanging out here.

[Karl H]

It is more than just cool ! OK, JMO!

Be Safe, Look Safe, Act Safe ... Happy Monday!

I do not understand what your point is. The OP can not respond to this
thread. This thread is a "Talk amongst yourselves" situation.

I think it should be closed because the OP will not benefit from the

discussion. If the topic is educational to others despite the OP not being

present. Then I think it's cool,or should I say OK? I just don't see your point.

[cadpoint]

My response is:
An over-all response is to SmithBuilt statement, Just delete your Phrase for a moment, It's Still way more than Cool to be here and learn...

Check, Fold, Raise, Or just play, Do you understand that ?

There are things stated and presented here that I'll never touch that I get to read about all the time, its a pleasure to be here and learn, I'm sorry you missed my inference ...

[Karl H]

My response is:
An over-all response is to SmithBuilt statement, Just delete your Phrase for a moment, It's Still way more than Cool to be here and learn...

Check, Fold, Raise, Or just play, Do you understand that ?

There are things stated and presented here that I'll never touch that I get to read about all the time, its a pleasure to be here and learn, I'm sorry you missed my inference ...

I'm going to be honest with you. Why do you communicate like

"Yoda" (Star Wars) "Do or Do not,there is no try." No offense Cadpoint.

We are all learning here, there is no need to complicate things more

than the already are. Yes,I undertood what you said. It was just more work

than it should be. I mean no offense whatsoever.:D

[George Stolz]

I do not understand what your point is. The OP can not respond to this
thread. This thread is a "Talk amongst yourselves" situation.

I think it should be closed because the OP will not benefit from the

discussion. If the topic is educational to others despite the OP not being

present. Then I think it's cool,or should I say OK? I just don't see your point.
As long as the thread remains on topic, it will remain open. You can agree with that or disagree, but as long as others can learn from and share their own insights, it is beneficial to the forum as a whole.

Marc can see posts in this forum, he has the technology; so we can return to the main topic.

[Karl H]

As long as the thread remains on topic, it will remain open. You can agree with that or disagree, but as long as others can learn from and share their own insights, it is beneficial to the forum as a whole.

Marc can see posts in this forum, he has the technology; so we can return to the main topic.

Thank You George. I understand.

[LarryFine]

At 57, I can barely tie my shoes.
I'm 53, and I have no problem whatever tying my shoes.


It's getting my feet in them afterward that I have trouble with. 8-)

[LarryFine]

Marc can see posts in this forum, he has the technology; . . .Yes, but can we rebuild him?

[jrannis]

As someone that has had to manage quite a few people, including under the supervision of a large corporate HR department, I'll offer my take on the situation. As with everything, take what you will and do what you feel is right. :cool:

First, at his age you can't simply terminate him as if this were the 1950's. As I have been educated in the matter, and I am sure that I am not all-knowing about the subject, the only way you can properly terminate him is to provide him several months of opportunities to improve while documenting his expectations and failures. Each document should be signed by you, him, and a witness. Every meeting or discussion on the matter should have at least one witness that understands the situation. Even then, it is surprising what people can get away with in court. The only up side I have found to this process is that you rarely have to terminate someone because they will get the picture long before they reach the end of the rope.

If this process comes as a bit of a surprise I would recommend reading up on the matter so that there are no surprises when you fire that special person that feels compelled to make a legal stand.

Secondarily, I don't know your company well enough to know how many people you have working for you but it can matter in this situation. People are always a mixed bag, and the better the mix (fewer weaknesses, more strengths) the more the employee is worth. In the end the mix of employees need to balance out to meet the company's demands, with one employee's strength balancing out another's weakness. The more people in a company the easier it tends to be to live with extreme weaknesses. If you can get the things done you need done, and get them done well, then it would seem that your mix of employees works. Unless you really feel confident you can replace him with someone else who will help your company do substantially better or will work for substantially less pay there isn't much of a reason to terminate him.

There are two exceptions for which I would consider terminating him even if the business is working as it should. One would be if his attitude, when it is degrading, is being passed to other employees. This is a bad situation that can cause major issues and take a tremendous effort to repair. I have had to repair such damage in a company before and the cure took over a year of constant effort along with turning over about a fourth of the people affected. After having administered the cure I would be quick to prevent the disease.

The other exception is if this is simply not a situation you can deal with yourself. I consider coping with the personality differences and discomforts part of being a manager. Honestly, if I only hired people that I really liked I would be likely to build an unbalanced company consisting of employees with similar strengths and weaknesses to my own. Still, jokes aside, managers are humans and there are limits to what they can cope with before becoming a problem themselves. If this is the situation it can be trickier to properly terminate someone because the bigger reason for terminating the employee is the fact that he pushes the boss's buttons.

I have a similar situation myself, and as of yet I have not terminated the guy. The only difference is that instead of an attitude problem his work quality just goes through the floor. To make a long story short, in the end we get done what we need to get done, I keep pushing him on ways to improve, and for his pay all I can do is exchange him for another employee with equal but different weaknesses. In my company I already have enough people who would be more like what I would typically get for his pay, so I really *need* him to stay and balance them out. Over time I am trying to improve other people as well so that, perhaps, one day I can replace him with a more typical person.

As an old guy I work with likes to point out, only people who have never had to manage people think managing people is a great thing. :rolleyes:

Bigger shops might have bigger problems with this but Im sure Marc doesnt have more than twenty people working for him:
This is from the defination page:
http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/adea.html

(b) The term “employer” means a person engaged in an industry affecting commerce who has twenty or more employees for each working day in each of twenty or more calendar weeks in the current or preceding calendar year: Provided, That prior to June 30, 1968, employers having fewer than fifty employees shall not be considered employers. The term also means (1) any agent of such a person, and (2) a State or political subdivision of a State and any agency or instrumentality of a State or a political subdivision of a State, and any interstate agency, but such term does not include the United States, or a corporation wholly owned by the Government of the United States.

[mkgrady]

Bigger shops might have bigger problems with this but Im sure Marc doesnt have more than twenty people working for him:
This is from the defination page:
http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/adea.html

(b) The term “employer” means a person engaged in an industry affecting commerce who has twenty or more employees for each working day in each of twenty or more calendar weeks in the current or preceding calendar year: Provided, That prior to June 30, 1968, employers having fewer than fifty employees shall not be considered employers. The term also means (1) any agent of such a person, and (2) a State or political subdivision of a State and any agency or instrumentality of a State or a political subdivision of a State, and any interstate agency, but such term does not include the United States, or a corporation wholly owned by the Government of the United States.

Are you saying a shop that doesn't meet the EEOC criteria (20 or more employees) for being an employer is exempt from discrimination lawsuits?

[mxslick]

Are you saying a shop that doesn't meet the EEOC criteria (20 or more employees) for being an employer is exempt from discrimination lawsuits?

Maybe, but I wouldn't want to test that theory..

[jrannis]

Are you saying a shop that doesn't meet the EEOC criteria (20 or more employees) for being an employer is exempt from discrimination lawsuits?

I provided the link. I dont know what else to tell ya.

[MA_Electrician1]

Say you have an employee who is... oh, 73 years 2 months and 14 days old. :smile:

This man is an excellent craftsman, and fairly productive. Does not complain about the symptoms of old age and shows up every day... BUT, this person is not flexible. This person thrives on a daily routine, which is good for construction work. Any deviation from a daily routine makes this person miserable, and he'll make anyone that will listen to him miserable.

What do you do? Just deal with it, and struggle to keep him doing the routine and predictable work OR fire him and take pot luck with another candidate OR counsel him?

Put yourself in his shoes. I wouldn't want to be in the field at that age. If you like his work and shows up everyday, deal with it. Also have a talk with him about the issue.