Your opinion on this instal....

[Mr.Sparkle]

Simple question. Customer wants to add (4) quad receptacle locations (total of 16 receptacles) for cubicle partitions to serve computers/printers/basic office stuff at front of warehouse, as well as a circuit for a 1/3 HP single phase motor /workbench area. Customer needs job done yesterday blah blah blah.......

My initial price will include running 3/4" emt (@150ft. total) with three circuits, one for the motor/workbench (@50 ft from panel) and two for front of building (@ 100ft. from panel).Now for another option, Would you feel comfortable putting all four quads for the cubicles on one 20A circuit? Then I can just do it in 1/2" (not that I like to) and omit a bolt on breaker etc...... I am just trying to offer a value engineered option as well if he cries about the first price I give him.

Thanks

[growler]

Would you feel comfortable putting all four quads for the cubicles on one 20A circuit?

Sure but I would point out the fact that the very minute that they start to use space heaters ( quite common) that the breaker is going to trip.

Recommend what they need and sell them what they are willing to pay for.

[Buck Parrish]

13 outlets is the maximum limit to a circuit. You could install two circuits and still use 1/2 ".
But that is not much of a price saver. If people never complain about your prices. Then you may not be charging enough.:smile:

[prh1700]

I wouldn't change a thing, especially the 3/4" emt. I have had to go back and add additional circuits to installs like that once the coffee pot and microwave got added, so with the 3/4" you will be set for the call back! If he balks at the price, tell him one circuit is cutting it closer than you like for the install.

[charlie b]

13 outlets is the maximum limit to a circuit.
That has been the subject of many extracted debates on this forum, as well (I am sure) as other places. I, for one, do not agree. So I wouldn't suggest making such an assertion, unless you have already read through the history of the debates herein, and are ready and willing to open them up again. ;)

[charlie b]

Would you feel comfortable putting all four quads for the cubicles on one 20A circuit?
I would not. But I would call that a "design decision," for I believe that the code would not forbid it. I would not even mention it to the client as being a possible option. They won't be happy with the results, as someone has already pointed out.

[Rewire]

If you want to keep the customer dont short change the installation.If you dont put in enough circuits and two months later they are tripping breakers you are not going to be on their favorite electrician list.

[Karl H]

Sure but I would point out the fact that the very minute that they start to use space heaters ( quite common) that the breaker is going to trip.

Recommend what they need and sell them what they are willing to pay for.

That was my first thought "Space Heaters".Before you can even
recieve or cash the check someone is going to plug in a
space heater and trip the breaker.Since most office personel
lack the understanding of Ohms Law, will never figure out
a 1500w space heater is 12.5 amps, and the quality of the install
is'nt the issue. Guess who they will blame? Modular Furniture
supplied from one 20 amp circuit is poor design IMO.

[quogueelectric]

Simple question. Customer wants to add (4) quad receptacle locations (total of 16 receptacles) for cubicle partitions to serve computers/printers/basic office stuff at front of warehouse, as well as a circuit for a 1/3 HP single phase motor /workbench area. Customer needs job done yesterday blah blah blah.......

My initial price will include running 3/4" emt (@150ft. total) with three circuits, one for the motor/workbench (@50 ft from panel) and two for front of building (@ 100ft. from panel).Now for another option, Would you feel comfortable putting all four quads for the cubicles on one 20A circuit? Then I can just do it in 1/2" (not that I like to) and omit a bolt on breaker etc...... I am just trying to offer a value engineered option as well if he cries about the first price I give him.

Thanks
Just to clarify do you mean 4 quads as in 8-duplex receptacles with 16 places to plug in ? Or 16-duplex receptacles?? 32 places to plug in?

[sparkygriffin]

Breaker $30.00
100' wire $ 6.00
difference in 1/2 & 3/4 emt $ 10.00
-------------
$ 46.00
Yeah that should make all of the difference

[growler]

Modular Furniture
supplied from one 20 amp circuit is poor design IMO.


I agree but I have hooked it up and had no problems. I may recommend and additional circuit for some installations but if the plans calls for one circuit and they are not willing to pay the extra cost, they are not getting it for free. Lets the breakers trip. Someone will get paid to add that extra circuit if needed.

It's the same with this job, I would recommend two circuits but if the owner tells me that Joe Blow Electric will run one circuit for a couple of hundred less and he is convinced that it will be plenty then I'll give him what he wants. Provided that this is only 8 yokes this is a legal install.

[growler]

Breaker $30.00
100' wire $ 6.00
difference in 1/2 & 3/4 emt $ 10.00
-------------
$ 46.00
Yeah that should make all of the difference


Is that really how you calculate the cost of an extra circuit? :-?

[macmikeman]

Breaker $30.00
100' wire $ 6.00
difference in 1/2 & 3/4 emt $ 10.00
-------------
$ 46.00
Yeah that should make all of the difference

I'm probably gonna get it for this, but I can whip out 100' of 1/2" faster than I can a similar run of 3/4" emt. And I can run a 100' of 3/4" faster than I can a similar run of 1" emt. And so forth all the way up. And as 480 points out there is more wire, another breaker, more connections, so -
((labor)+ (material)+(overhead)+(markup)+(applicable taxes)+(profit))= sell price. Oh yeah, I almost forgot- contingency.

[Karl H]

I agree but I have hooked it up and had no problems. I may recommend and additional circuit for some installations but if the plans calls for one circuit and they are not willing to pay the extra cost, they are not getting it for free. Lets the breakers trip. Someone will get paid to add that extra circuit if needed.

It's the same with this job, I would recommend two circuits but if the owner tells me that Joe Blow Electric will run one circuit for a couple of hundred less and he is convinced that it will be plenty then I'll give him what he wants. Provided that this is only 8 yokes this is a legal install.

I agree with you too. If that's what they paid for and it's not a
Safety hazzard I'll do whatever you want. In most cases Modular
Furniture is nothing but convenience outlets. The true load is'nt
known. My "experience" tells me there will be one computer,one monitor,
one or two lamps or light fixtures per cube.I also might add
one space heater that will trip all of the cubes on that single circuit eventually.
That's not reality because there may or not be any items that I mentioned
above. It may be 9 cubes with file cabs and one comp.So until
the load is known its all convenience outlets. I'm just saying
from "My Experience"one circuit to modular furniture is IMO
poor design.

[sparkygriffin]

This sounds like a job where the electrician is figuring what the required amount of circuits are. It didn't sound to me like the owner was asking for something specific. The op said what was going in each cubical, and he could add that up and figure out what he is suppose to have there as far as circuits go, add a little in there for expansion and go for it. My point was he still had to run the pipe regardless of the amount of circuits he put in it, the labor would not change that much just a little material. The effort that was put into thinking about 1 or 2 circuits and posting his question would equal the extra effort he would put into just pulling the extra 1 or even 2 circuits . Plus he may not trip a breaker and get a customer for more than one job

[tonyou812]

One circut! thats soooo minimal.....one space heater and your almost maxed out. And you know thats gonna happen quite frequently. And how can you tell someone not to use one. In the end they (the customer) will equate it to "crappy electric" by that crappy electrician. the guy above me said it best. You want this guy for more than one job, dont you?

[Mr.Sparkle]

Thanks for the replies guys. I was just looking for opinions on my value engineered option in regards to using the 1/2" and omitting a circuit, it is in no way what I want to do and the price I give him will be the one including 3/4" emt and 3 circuits total.

The only reason I even was looking to offer a value engineered price for this job for him was the fact that he thought I "could just come off the bathroom circuit 10 feet away" or "how about that box on the wall up there?" (277V, I told him his computers would run reeaaal fast:grin::rolleyes:) His face hit the floor when I told him I will need to run @ 150ft. of pipe :D. The quads are because he does not want to use power strips, and to clarify it will be 8 duplex receptacles in four quads up front and 2 duplex in one quad by the workbench.

I am throwing my 1/2" emt/2 circuit option out the window and gonna stick to my guns with what I feel should be installed, I know he is gonna hem and haw but if he doesn't like it I'll walk. I am not about to drop my price, I am new to the EC side of the game and not fully confident in pricing light commercial just yet anyhow. I, however am attempting to raise the bar and refuse to work for a paycheck.

[cowboyjwc]

Sure but I would point out the fact that the very minute that they start to use space heaters ( quite common) that the breaker is going to trip.

Recommend what they need and sell them what they are willing to pay for.

That's funny,:D I had about the same install, only had space for one circuit, asked if he still wanted what he asked for, he said yes, a week later I'm back there unplugging the four space heaters and the one fish tank that kept overloading the circuit.

[Mr.Sparkle]

here (http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r233/MrSparkle_photos/GerardElectricStanleySteemerjpg003.jpg) is a cute drawing of what I wanna do.

[Karl H]

If the Modular Furniture is against a wall I cut-in a box and
whip out to the nearest termination point.If it is in the center of the office
space I use power poles. I love it when Managers or owners
think that Commercial electrical systems are the same as resi systems.
I do'nt know about the rest of you guys,but, I don't have
100 computers,chillers,10 AHU,or 277 volt lighting in my house.
Give me time and that may change.:D

[Mr.Sparkle]

Only partitions going up, power is only needed along the wall. I seem to be around the 2k mark for this job, sound right?

[wawireguy]

Do a rough load calc. How many puters? How many printers? How many coffee pots? Then add some extra capacity. He won't be happy with you if he can't run his stuff.

[btharmy]

Am I seeing correctly 120/208v. 3ph panel? If so, 3 cir, 1 neut (not 2):), 1 grnd.

[Mr.Sparkle]

yeah i realized that after i wrote it down thanks :wink:

[btharmy]

Your hands are faster than your brain too, huh? By the way, if my screw driver is right handed..........yours must be "wrong":D handed.

[electricalperson]

isnt most cubicles set up to be fed from a 3 phase 4 wire circuit anyway
one neutral and 3 sperate phases for receptacles

[mattsilkwood]

i have worked for guys like that, i tell them why i would like to upsize, bigger pipe/ spares for future use, more circuits for heaters and such. if he still dosent want to do it ok then you get to do it all over again in a month or two.

[peter d]

Breaker $30.00
100' wire $ 6.00
difference in 1/2 & 3/4 emt $ 10.00
-------------
$ 46.00
Yeah that should make all of the difference

You're kidding right? :-?

You've left at least a half dozen considerations off that list.

[growler]

With only one little work area and one extra circuit needed this probably isn't going to make much difference. But for all the people that say they give the customer what he needs then think of this, the same problem occurs in most office buildings.

You may do a single office with 50-60 employees and that means 50-60 cubicles, do you want to give each employee and extra circuit so they can run a space heater. You don't know which employees will bring in the space heaters so that's what you would have to do to provide enough power for the possibilities of these heaters. And you are not going to run all those extra circuits for $46 ea. either. If the want to power up all those space heaters it's going to cost some real money.

The engineers are not going to calculate the added load of all these heaters they are just going to use a load calculation based on the normal office equipment.

I have had an office manager collect up 20 space heaters on one floor and that was in the summer time. I'm sure that some people took their heater home during the warmer months. It's really impossible to give a customer the power they will need for every situation. The power requirements must be based on the information that the customer provides and is willing to pay for.

[gardiner]

When dealing with office cubicals many use a four circuit eight or ten wire system or a 3 cicruit 8 wire system. the biggest problem in not supplying all the required circuits is the receptavcles placed in the furniture on the four circuit systems these are individual receptacles built to work on one one of the four ciructs so if you don't activate all then someone comes along places in a receptacle and screams it doesn't work. Another case would be four cubicals are installed "day one", two years later 2 more are added on according to the sales rep they have four circuits only two are used why can't the new be just connected to the two remaining circuits? I deal with this all the time. Guess who gets blamed for not running the required number of circuits to the area in the first place. Run what is listed as required for the furniture and call it a day, the client buys the cubicals after being told what it can do.
Rule of thumb is 2 seats to a circuit when the layout is planed in the begining unless speacial considerations are called for.
Word on the side if the system askes for independent neutrals give it, lot less problems for all concerned.

[ohm]

I've worked in many offices with 100 cubicles per floor and can tell you they were probably served by as little as (40) 20A 120V circuits.

I've also seen a breaker trip, moans go out all over the place, data lost, boss finds heater under secretaries desk, secretary gets talked to, problem solved.

No manager wants heaters fighting air conditioners or coffee pots or refrig. in every cubicle etc. There are long lines for every job opening and the boss usually wins.

[electricguy61]

Can you use MC and save on the labor costs?

[ptrip]

I had a fairly recent office high-rise project where I had to convince the Owner's rep that they didn't need 16 outlets per seat! I couldn't, for the life of me, figure out why they needed that many plugs ... and I confirmed 16 duplex outlets, not 16 plugs. I had to explain the cost of that number of circuits per floor and how it would overload the service upgrade they just installed two years before (at least on paper). We settled on 4 duplex per seat, 2 seats per circuit. Printing and copying were going to be accomplished from central locations and there was a specified break room in the floor plans.

That project is just now under construction, and I've was laid off from the design firm 6 months ago ... I'll probably never know how it turns out. :(

[Mr.Sparkle]

Gotta love it. I talk to the customer today, tell him my price and that he will have to pull a permit and he tells me he might have another guy who can do it for about 40% less than me and the other guy doesn't need a permit. This is a brandy new office park warehouse complex still in the closing stages of construction, one can only hope that this "other guy" crosses paths with a code official in the area if he gets the job.