Mcap

[quogueelectric]

With the introduction of mcap into the field you are given the choice of either cutting flush or entering the box with it.
Now I realize that almost everyone will just cut it flush however if for some reason you absolutely had to enter the al ground into the box how could this be terminated??
Purple wirenuts are not rated for al to al only the king alumicons I know of and I have only seen them with 3 connections. Would a ground screw be acceptable?
Could you enter this into a plastic box?? Lets say someone was daisy chaining Em packs bringing the conductors right into the back of a plastic fixture.
What are your thoughts or suggestions.

[Buck Parrish]

What is MCAP ?

[C3PO]

I would think a ground screw would be acceptable or a mech lug. But that is suppsed to be the selling point on MCAP is that you don't have to run the EGC into the box.

[quogueelectric]

What is MCAP ?

MCAP>>>>>>http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/06_e/temblador.html

[macmikeman]

I would think a ground screw would be acceptable or a mech lug. But that is suppsed to be the selling point on MCAP is that you don't have to run the EGC into the box.

Since it got intoduced, I have been waiting for this thread. I haven't used it yet myself, but was wondering how many local inspectors will try to require the bonding conductor become a "grounding wire" inside the boxes. I don't think the plastic boxes will fly- but I'm nowhere near my code book.

[wireguru]

with regard to inspectors wanting the bonding strip to enter the box as a grounding conductor, i would ask them if they require the copper strip thats embedded in sealtite to enter the box too :roll:

MCAP is so you dont have to deal with the grounding conductors. If you need a grounding conductor in the box due to a spec or something then why even use MCAP at all?

[Pierre C Belarge]

When splicing Al-Al, one of the methods suggested is to introduce a copper conductor to the splice so as to conform to the Al-Al restriction.

[peter d]

What are your thoughts or suggestions.

Cut it off and be done with it.

[roger]

Cut it off and be done with it.

I agree. This is what I have always done with AC and HCFC.

Roger

[peter d]

I agree. This is what I have always done with AC and HCFC.

Roger

I have no idea why anyone would attempt to terminate the bond/EGC/whatever the-heck-you-would-call-it in MC-Ap when it's designed to be cut off.

[walkerj]

If it they are daisychaining plastic fixtures, both the in and out's armor must be bonded to each other or the out won't be grounded.
I think thats what cow is getting at.

[roger]

If it they are daisychaining plastic fixtures, both the in and out's armor must be bonded to each other or the out won't be grounded.
I think thats what cow is getting at.

And how would this be any different if you used EMT or any other metallic raceway?

Roger

[peter d]

If it they are daisychaining plastic fixtures, both the in and out's armor must be bonded to each other or the out won't be grounded.
I think thats what cow is getting at.

With a duplex connector there is no issue.

[walkerj]

With the introduction of mcap into the field you are given the choice of either cutting flush or entering the box with it.
Now I realize that almost everyone will just cut it flush however if for some reason you absolutely had to enter the al ground into the box how could this be terminated??
Purple wirenuts are not rated for al to al only the king alumicons I know of and I have only seen them with 3 connections. Would a ground screw be acceptable?
Could you enter this into a plastic box?? Lets say someone was daisy chaining Em packs bringing the conductors right into the back of a plastic fixture.What are your thoughts or suggestions.

And how would this be any different if you used EMT or any other metallic raceway?

Roger


How are the two raceways bonded together without any metallic interface?

A duplex connector would work but I don't think that is how it is setup.

[roger]

How are the two raceways bonded together without any metallic interface?



That is my point, you would have to address any metallic raceway in your scenario, and along with Peters suggestion (which wouldn't work for say EMT) you could use bond bushings and a jumper between them, the aluminum runner could still be cut off.

Roger

[quogueelectric]

When splicing Al-Al, one of the methods suggested is to introduce a copper conductor to the splice so as to conform to the Al-Al restriction.I wonder if the purple wirenut is rated for a grounding conductor or even the alumicon for that matter I would have to read the box. Maybe the I just read a gb greenie box and it is cu to cu only. 14-10awg 600v listed 63m2 ground connector. The purple wirenuts is a good idea by putting a piece of cu in there dont know if they are listed for grounding though.

[quogueelectric]

I have no idea why anyone would attempt to terminate the bond/EGC/whatever the-heck-you-would-call-it in MC-Ap when it's designed to be cut off.It is designed to be terminated both ways and I have installed it cut off however I am trying to forsee future isues if the ground wire which just happens to be aluminum creating all kinds of problems for the installer before I have a crew of guys installing it standing around hemming and hawing and not knowing what to do with it. It is always to your advantage to know more than one way to skin a cat.

[quogueelectric]

And how would this be any different if you used EMT or any other metallic raceway?

Roger

They dont have an aluminum oversized grounding conductor.

[peter d]

... before I have a crew of guys installing it standing around hemming and hawing and not knowing what to do with it.

Cmon, you're not telling me these guys are so dumb that they can't comprehend basic instructions on how to install this stuff, are you? :confused:

[quogueelectric]

Cmon, you're not telling me these guys are so dumb that they can't comprehend basic instructions on how to install this stuff, are you? :confused:
How smart could they be to work for a cow?? However mfgs instructions show it can be terminated BOTH ways I need to figure out how to do this code compliantly.

[peter d]

How smart could they be to work for a cow??

I can't argue with that. :D

[roger]

They dont have an aluminum oversized grounding conductor.

Which does nothing other than make the sheath of the MCAP the same as any other metallic raceway recognized as an EGC per 250.118.

Roger

[Fulthrotl]

I wonder if the purple wirenut is rated for a grounding conductor or even the alumicon for that matter I would have to read the box. Maybe the I just read a gb greenie box and it is cu to cu only. 14-10awg 600v listed 63m2 ground connector. The purple wirenuts is a good idea by putting a piece of cu in there dont know if they are listed for grounding though.

i know it's listed, and approved..... but an aluminum bond sucks.:mad:

i'm not big on bx, ac, mc, etc. anyway.

however, at least mc has a copper ground. if i must, i will run mc.

however, the last time i ran mc, was in 2000. 500 mcm 4 conductor.
the spools were 4' wide and 7' tall. under computer floor. instead of
a little tugger and three guys, the stuck on stupid foreman of the stuck
on stupid contractor decided 6 guys doing the heave ho would be faster.

i've never seen anything so stupid in my whole life. i drug up after two days.
people like that shouldn't be allowed to reproduce, let alone plan jobs.

[ivsenroute]

Cut it off and install it into metal boxes like it is designed.

[peter d]

i know it's listed, and approved..... but an aluminum bond sucks.:mad:

It doesn't "suck" if you cut it off like it's intended to...it eliminates an EGC termination and saves time.

[MarkyMarkNC]

I thought the whole marketing concept behind MCAP was that you save labor by not having to make up the grounds? There is no cost difference between MC and MCAP, at least in the market I'm in.

Probably going OT here, but is anyone actually using this stuff? I was working in sales when MCAP first came out, and we were never able to get ANYONE to buy it. The wire reps were always pushing this stuff, but people just hated it.

[jeremysterling]

Since it got intoduced, I have been waiting for this thread. I haven't used it yet myself, but was wondering how many local inspectors will try to require the bonding conductor become a "grounding wire" inside the boxes. I don't think the plastic boxes will fly- but I'm nowhere near my code book.

The AHJ here has his own ideas about installing MCAP that are for the most part OK with me.

It is designed to be terminated both ways and I have installed it cut off however I am trying to forsee future isues if the ground wire which just happens to be aluminum creating all kinds of problems for the installer before I have a crew of guys installing it standing around hemming and hawing and not knowing what to do with it. It is always to your advantage to know more than one way to skin a cat.

A rough in crew before me installed MCAP stripped back through ENT (smurf) to a metal ceiling box in the overhead poured deck. The conductors and the Al bonding jumper are coiled up in the concrete tight 4/O box. I'm with cow: What do I do to bond the 4/O box? At first I did not believe the Al could be used like this, but cow is right: The manufacturer says we can terminate the Al bonding jumper rather than cut it off (which is my preference). I wish the rough in crew had used regular MC with copper ground for the smurf runs.

[Fulthrotl]

It doesn't "suck" if you cut it off like it's intended to...it eliminates an EGC termination and saves time.

and provides a nice aluminum conductor for the ground....
sorry, i'm just not feeling warm and fuzzy about aluminum
conductors for branch circuit wiring.

even grounds.

branch circuits in walls.... how about metal boxes, smurf tube, and
stranded conductors?

i understand what you're saying peter, it's an approved means and
method. saves time. i just don't much care for it......:smile:

randy

[peter d]

i understand what you're saying peter, it's an approved means and
method. saves time. i just don't much care for it......:smile:

I see. Politically speaking I'm a right winger, but when it comes to accepting new electrical products, I'm a raging liberal.

[roger]

and provides a nice aluminum conductor for the ground....
sorry, i'm just not feeling warm and fuzzy about aluminum
conductors for branch circuit wiring.

even grounds.

branch circuits in walls.... how about metal boxes, smurf tube, and
stranded conductors?

i understand what you're saying peter, it's an approved means and
method. saves time. i just don't much care for it......:smile:

randy

And with that being the case, what is your feeling about HCFC?

Roger

[quogueelectric]

The AHJ here has his own ideas about installing MCAP that are for the most part OK with me.



A rough in crew before me installed MCAP stripped back through ENT (smurf) to a metal ceiling box in the overhead poured deck. The conductors and the Al bonding jumper are coiled up in the concrete tight 4/O box. I'm with cow: What do I do to bond the 4/O box? At first I did not believe the Al could be used like this, but cow is right: The manufacturer says we can terminate the Al bonding jumper rather than cut it off (which is my preference). I wish the rough in crew had used regular MC with copper ground for the smurf runs. At least I got through to one person. No one is paying atention to the fact that there are issues with code compliant instalation of plan b. Is a ground screw listed in the first place ?? And if it is is it listed for Al?? This stuff is going to be whored in just like any other new product and I need options. It is my job as a foreman /contractor to have all the answers without wasting anybodys money.

[iwire]

Yeah that makes sense, go looking for trouble where there is none.

Cut the darn bonding strip off, it does not make it 'better' by terminating it. It passes all bonding tests with it cut off.

Of course all this will fall on deaf ears. :roll:

[Fulthrotl]

And with that being the case, what is your feeling about HCFC?Roger

point noted. :D

i wasn't selected as a reproductive consultant either, mainly 'cause they
didn't want my .......... opinion.

forgive me. i suffer from an allergic reaction to bx, and it's offspring...:smile:

[ohm]

At least I got through to one person. No one is paying atention to the fact that there are issues with code compliant instalation of plan b. Is a ground screw listed in the first place ?? And if it is is it listed for Al?? This stuff is going to be whored in just like any other new product and I need options. It is my job as a foreman /contractor to have all the answers without wasting anybodys money.

If cutting off the the AL bond is allowed and MC is the same price as MCAP I'll just buy MCAP (which must have better EGC qualities) and use it like ordinary MC.

Around here, a box ground is required. Also, I just found out at our last inspectors meeting that the green screw in a box doesn't have to be green.

Further, if I have the luxury I always run a insulated green wire in my metal raceways. Just call me an EC who never gets call-backs or uses his insurance.

[peter d]

At least I got through to one person.

You've been coming through loud and clear in this whole thread. But as Bob said you're making trouble where there is none. I have no idea why you would make extra hassle for yourself when the whole point of the MC-Ap product is to eliminate the EGC terminations, and the cable is designed and listed for such use. And if the people in your charge can't understand and follow the basic instruction of "Cut the aluminum bond conductor flush with the armor and install the connector" then I am truly at a loss for words.

[peter d]

With the introduction of mcap into the field you are given the choice of either cutting flush or entering the box with it.


Where does it say that the aluminum "ground" wire is suitable for termination?

I have found nothing supporting that statement on the IAEI or Southwire websites.

[quogueelectric]

Where does it say that the aluminum "ground" wire is suitable for termination?

I have found nothing supporting that statement on the IAEI or Southwire websites.

I happen to own such an instruction taken off the 1000' reel on the dashboard of my truck. I will gladly fax/email a copy to you as I have trouble posting pics as the reolution is too high and I dont know how to downsize them.

[quogueelectric]

Yeah that makes sense, go looking for trouble where there is none.

Cut the darn bonding strip off, it does not make it 'better' by terminating it. It passes all bonding tests with it cut off.

Of course all this will fall on deaf ears. :roll:

If I remember correctly werent you the one pushing the insistance of mc is acceptable in a plastic box or was that my imagination??? Cows have good ears.

[peter d]

I happen to own such an instruction taken off the 1000' reel on the dashboard of my truck. I will gladly fax/email a copy to you as I have trouble posting pics as the reolution is too high and I dont know how to downsize them.

Sure, if it's from the product itself I would be happy to see it. I just find it strange that this information is nowhere to be found on their website.

[quogueelectric]

Sure, if it's from the product itself I would be happy to see it. I just find it strange that this information is nowhere to be found on their website.

It was new and I read the instructions with it and the mfg instructions dont lie give me an address and you will have a copy too. I am not a brand new raindrop with this stuff you know.

[peter d]

I am not a brand new raindrop with this stuff you know.

I thought you were a cow?

[quogueelectric]

I thought you were a cow? I am not just a slab of beef you know.

[iwire]

If I remember correctly werent you the one pushing the insistance of mc is acceptable in a plastic box or was that my imagination??? Cows have good ears.

And that has what connection to this thread?

In our 'plastic box and MC' thread the product was MC not MCAP.

[iwire]

Where does it say that the aluminum "ground" wire is suitable for termination?

I have found nothing supporting that statement on the IAEI or Southwire websites.

Pete I have read that as well, you can terminate it.

[quogueelectric]

And that has what connection to this thread?

In our 'plastic box and MC' thread the product was MC not MCAP.

Silly me.........

[peter d]

Pete I have read that as well, you can terminate it.

I believe it. :)

As I've said all along, I still can't comprehend why anyone would torture themselves trying to terminate it, but I guess that's just me. :roll:

[LJSMITH1]

MCAP cable must be used with UL Listed fittings designed to accomodate the cable. As far as I know, there are no MCAP cable fittings made for ENT or PVC systems. So, transitioning from MCAP to anything plastic should be done in a metal J/B and with approved MCAP metal fittings. When used this way, the AL EGC would be trimmed flush with the MCAP sheath as per the mfr's instructions. Then copper EGC and appropriate conductors should be fished from the metal J/B down the ENT into the plastic box.