Is this one different (i.e., a different scam)? [Archive]

charlie b

02-02-2009, 01:36 PM

I read this as being a scam, but it seems to take a different approach than many others that have been discussed on this forum recently.
http://www.electrichero.com/index.php (http://www.electrichero.com/index.php)

It does have, on all of its pages, a graphic that shows voltage and current wave forms out of phase (poor power factor) and closer to being in phase (better power factor). But it does not claim to do anything to correct the power factor.

They go to great lengths to assure the potential buyer that buying, selling, and owning their device is perfectly legal. But then they go to even greater lengths to distance themselves from any possible illegal use of their device. They will not, they say, be a party to any illegal use. The customer is solely responsible, should the device be used illegally. But they do appear to assert that the utility company cannot discern its presence.

So, my question is, what does this thing actually do? On one page, they seem to be describing it as a “meter beater.” Does this thing interfere with the proper operation of the meter? Can it really be giving the customer a lower electric bill, and if so, does it achieve that be preventing the meter from giving an accurate reading of the actual energy usage?

My guess is that if this device is installed, and if the electric bill really does go down, then the user is committing theft. Any thoughts? Anyone encountered this one before?

Buck Parrish

02-02-2009, 01:42 PM

It says "Slash your power bill by up to 50% , Or your money back." Oh and it's proven in 8 countries. It does not say what countries. You may be right some of these other countries. It may be easy to by pass the metering device.
Sounds like the same scam to me.

mikeames

02-02-2009, 01:43 PM

May be they are using psychology to make the customer think they are getting something special that no one really know about. The customer might think since it possibly illegal it must work.

growler

02-02-2009, 06:04 PM

My guess is that if this device is installed, and if the electric bill really does go down, then the user is committing theft. Any thoughts? Anyone encountered this one before?

My guess is that the use of this device would be illegal, there are several misleading statements made in the add. Check legal section.

They state that the device is intalled inside the meter housing ( socket) and there is no way for the power company to know of it's use.
You would have to cut the seal to install this device and the power company could call it tampering.

They claim that the meter socket belongs to the customer and this is not really true. The power company often gives out meter sockets and even when they don't it's still under their control ( the seal ).

And they want you to believe that the power company has no say in the meter housing but the POCO has to approve any equipment for use and I don't think meter beater would qualify.:grin:

They really only say that it's legal to buy, sell or own but don't get into use. They do say that it can be used by electrical professionals and for educational purpose ( probably classroom).

480sparky

02-02-2009, 06:16 PM

...Oh and it's proven in 8 countries. It does not say what countries........

You must have missed this part: http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Emoticons/flute.gif

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/8countries.jpg

Now it becomes a World Geography quiz. http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Emoticons/wink1.gif

charlie b

02-02-2009, 06:22 PM

Any guesses as to what it does? Insert a counter-magnetic field to force the disk to turn slower, or something along those lines? Fake the voltage or current sensors in such a way as to cause the product (V x I = P) to be read as a lower value than is actually being used? They describe the installation as being essentially a plug-in situation. So it has nothing in physical contact with the disk, to cause it to slow down. Yet they claim the user will see an immediate reduction in the disk's speed of rotation.

By the way, there is a local association of electrical professionals (utilities, manufacturers, consultants, etc.) that meets monthly. This item is on this month's agenda. That is the reason for my interest.

480sparky

02-02-2009, 06:29 PM

Any guesses as to what it does? Insert a counter-magnetic field to force the disk to turn slower, or something along those lines? Fake the voltage or current sensors in such a way as to cause the product (V x I = P) to be read as a lower value than is actually being used? They describe the installation as being essentially a plug-in situation. So it has nothing in physical contact with the disk, to cause it to slow down. Yet they claim the user will see an immediate reduction in the disk's speed of rotation.

What happens when you've got a digital meter?

I wonder if anyone who installs these dons the proper PPE.

By the way, there is a local association of electrical professionals (utilities, manufacturers, consultants, etc.) that meets monthly. This item is on this month's agenda. That is the reason for my interest.

Keep us in the loop!

charlie b

02-02-2009, 06:30 PM

Now it becomes a World Geography quiz. http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Emoticons/wink1.gif
Here are my answers:
1. USA
2. Bahamas
3. Cayman Islands
4. Mexico
5. Dominican Republic
6. Jamaica
7. Canada
8. Colombia

I feel so much better, knowing the product has been proven in all these places. :roll:

480sparky

02-02-2009, 06:33 PM

Here are my answers:
1. USA
2. Bahamas
3. Cayman Islands
4. Mexico
5. Dominican Republic
6. Jamaica
7. Canada
8. Colombia

I feel so much better, knowing the product has been proven in all these places. :roll:

Makes you wonder if they're tested in places like this?

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Horror%20Photos/mess12.jpg

growler

02-02-2009, 06:43 PM

Read the disclaimer. They practically say it's a novelty device.

http://www.electrichero.com/legal.php

Greg Swartz

02-02-2009, 06:48 PM

Makes you wonder if they're tested in places like this?

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Horror%20Photos/mess12.jpg

Hey!
Why'd you have to go and post my house like that!
I was gettin' 'round to fixin' it!!!

:grin:

LarryFine

02-02-2009, 10:04 PM

Makes you wonder if they're tested in places like this?

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Horror%20Photos/mess12.jpg
Also makes you wonder if they offer a quantity discount.

LarryFine

02-02-2009, 10:14 PM

Read the disclaimer. They practically say it's a novelty device.

http://www.electrichero.com/legal.php
Of note is the incomplete sentence: "Since the Electric company has no way of telling that you are using this unit." :roll:

Is anybody interested enough to chip in and buy one to 'reverse engineer' and see what makes it tick? Ten of us at $20 each? Twenty of us at $10 each?

If the Mod Squad is okay with it, I hereby volunteer to coordinate interest by accepting PM's from interested parties with their suggested contributions.

I also am willing to be the one to purchase one and carefully take pics as it's disected, and draw a schematic if there's a circuit of any interest inside.

Guys?

steelersman

02-02-2009, 10:17 PM

Of note is the incomplete sentence: "Since the Electric company has no way of telling that you are using this unit." :roll:

Is anybody interested enough to chip in and buy one to 'reverse engineer' and see what makes it tick? Ten of us at $20 each? Twenty of us at $10 each?

If the Mod Squad is okay with it, I hereby volunteer to coordinate interest by accepting PM's from interested parties with their suggested contributions.

I also am willing to be the one to purchase one and carefully take pics as it's disected, and draw a schematic if there's a circuit of any interest inside.

Guys?
I got $10 on it.

LarryFine

02-02-2009, 10:18 PM

Also makes you wonder if they offer a quantity discount.

I see they do indeed! They're obviously interested in setting up 'disassociated distributors' all over the world. They even have a distributor package and a distributor agreement.

http://www.electrichero.com/buy-1st.php

BLACK4TRUCK

02-02-2009, 10:21 PM

LarryFine

02-02-2009, 10:44 PM

Interesting tidbits: do a Google search on their phone number.

It comes up as a San Jose, California area code, and there's also a Nassau Co, NY number.

djcrzysounds@yahoo.com

02-02-2009, 10:47 PM

Count me in for $20... I love to find out that the $200 I spent on an illegal device would've been better spent on beer and pizza.

LarryFine

02-02-2009, 10:49 PM

one percent is "up to 50 percent".. that is how a scammer stays within the lawEven a 1% reduction in cost per KWH would be amazing where the POCO doesn't test and charge for poor PF.

LarryFine

02-02-2009, 10:54 PM

I got $10 on it.

Count me in for $20...
I am keeping track of "pledges" both here and in PM. I presume everyone will want to agree on a same-amount-for-each-person contribution, once we see how many are in, and post the current tally whenever anyone wants to know.

Greg Swartz

02-03-2009, 12:50 AM

Count me in.
What ever we end up splitting the cost for.

I think there is a place that has $50 off on this... I was doing some searching around for it too...

LarryFine

02-03-2009, 01:37 AM

Count me in.
What ever we end up splitting the cost for.

I think there is a place that has $50 off on this... I was doing some searching around for it too...
I saw a site or two that offered money off and free shipping if you entered the code BIGMIKE somewhere.

Greg Swartz

02-03-2009, 01:39 AM

I saw a site or two that offered money off and free shipping if you entered the code BIGMIKE somewhere.
That sounds like the one I was looking at.

Fulthrotl

02-03-2009, 04:29 AM

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]They go to great lengths to assure the potential buyer that buying, selling, and owning their device is perfectly legal. But then they go to even greater lengths to distance themselves from any possible illegal use of their device. They will not, they say, be a party to any illegal use. The customer is solely responsible, should the device be used illegally. But they do appear to assert that the utility company cannot discern its presence.

pssst... don't tell nobody... this here is a secret thingie that will make
whatever you want to happen, happen.

what the device actually does, is activate the inherent greed module
hardwired into every consumer.:D

and it transfers money from one bank account to another like magic!!

and you plug it in, and little blinky lights blink.... and they cannot be
detected by the public utility, no matter how hard they try....

last time i checked, residential service doesn't look for power factor
issues with a watt meter... the new wireless telemetry meters can
record that data, but residential customers are not subject to a rate
surcharge because of poor power factor... and poor power factor is the
original something for nothing deal... the poco has to provide all this
service ability to start a big motor, and the motor cancels out the inrush
with CEMF.... so aligning the power factor close to 100% is not in the
customers best interest....

bjp_ne_elec

02-03-2009, 06:40 AM

Makes you wonder if they're tested in places like this?

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Horror%20Photos/mess12.jpg

What third world country was this pic taken in? Hope it wasn't here in the good ole USA.

ptonsparky

02-03-2009, 09:02 AM

No jumper or bond at the local water meter as far as I can tell. Must be someplace nice & warm.

charlie b

02-03-2009, 09:07 AM

Before this goes too far, my friends, let me point out that this company seems to have made a significant effort to protect themselves against liability claims. I do not want anything done by the members of this forum to place Mike Holt Enterprises at risk. Whatever "truth" might be uncovered by purchasing and experimenting with one of these devices, if we were to "expose" that "truth" to the world, the company could use that as a basis for suing MHE for defamation and a host of other things. Are we really experienced enough in the means and methods of scientific testing to stand up, in court, against the accusation that, "They just played with the device as though it were a toy, and now they are costing us business"?

My suggestion is that, however worthy the notion, we not go there.

LarryFine

02-03-2009, 01:15 PM

buddhakii

02-03-2009, 01:31 PM

Makes you wonder if they're tested in places like this?

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Horror%20Photos/mess12.jpg

Where did you find that fine wordmanship?

charlie b

02-03-2009, 01:34 PM

Is not the truth the ultimate defense?
Not in a court of law, it isn't, especially when the jury will not understand one word of what the litigants are saying against each other.

ohm

02-03-2009, 01:47 PM

Is not the truth the ultimate defense?

Very true Larry, count me in. Now, can we test this thing on your meter?

growler

02-03-2009, 01:52 PM

Whatever "truth" might be uncovered by purchasing and experimenting with one of these devices, if we were to "expose" that "truth" to the world, the company could use that as a basis for suing MHE for defamation and a host of other things. Are we really experienced enough in the means and methods of scientific testing to stand up, in court, against the accusation that, "They just played with the device as though it were a toy, and now they are costing us business"?

We don't need to purchase one for testing and we are certainly not quallified. There are those that are qualified to certifiy equipment for use and there was no mention of testing in the add.

Without a UL or some laboratory testing of this equipment and it being listed for use then we wouldn't be allowed to install it anyway and neither would the homewoner.

They don't state anywhere that this equipment is approved for use as sevice equipment ( connected to service ). If it doesn't have a sticker it's up to local authorities and the power company to approve it.

What they do openly state is this: "this information and Meter Beater are only to be used by certified electrical technicians and/or for educational purposes only". This is their statment and not mine.

They actually market the equipment as a teaching tool and only suggest that it could be used for other purposes ( neat trick).

If you think about it the only thing that you could purchase one for legally would be for test purposes only and that's all they really say. The rest is up to you ( the customer).

The minute that you break the meter seal then you are not complying with local and state laws and would probably void any warranty ( illegal use of product).

My main question would be this: If this thing actually works then wouldn't it be easier to install at the panel where the customer is allowed access and not tampering with metering equipment.

charlie b

02-03-2009, 02:05 PM

My main question would be this: If this thing actually works then wouldn't it be easier to install at the panel where the customer is allowed access and not tampering with metering equipment.
Good point. That reinforces my suspicion that it somehow interferes with the proper operation of the meter, and that it therefore constitutes theft. And no matter what their web site says, if they state that their product can, and has, saved money on electric bills, then they are a party to theft. That, at least, is the opinion I plan on bringing to the Electric League meeting later this month.

charlie b

02-03-2009, 02:08 PM

. . . so aligning the power factor close to 100% is not in the customers best interest....
That's the odd part, the part that makes me think this is a different kind of scam. They don't ever state that their device improves power factor. They don't say that that is the manner in which the customer saves money.

don_resqcapt19

02-03-2009, 02:26 PM

Please Note... This item is 100% LEGAL to buy, sell and own.
Note that they don't say it is legal to use or install.

ohm

02-03-2009, 03:20 PM

That's the odd part, the part that makes me think this is a different kind of scam. They don't ever state that their device improves power factor. They don't say that that is the manner in which the customer saves money.

Let's see if POCO's saved money by having more customers w/ unity PF theoretically the rates would go down and customers WOULD save money.
Hold your applause everyone, I'm just one person trying to make a difference.:smile:

drbond24

02-03-2009, 04:25 PM

That's the odd part, the part that makes me think this is a different kind of scam. They don't ever state that their device improves power factor. They don't say that that is the manner in which the customer saves money.

They might not say WE IMPROVE POWER FACTOR, but they do imply it with the graphic on their home page at the top right. The description underneath says high power factor = low energy waste.

steelersman

02-03-2009, 05:18 PM

Is not the truth the ultimate defense?
with all due respect Larry, the truth is not the ultimate defense. The PITTSBURGH STEELERS are!! :)

LarryFine

02-03-2009, 06:29 PM

Very true Larry, count me in. Now, can we test this thing on your meter?
Well, what I had in mind, as far as documenting its effectiveness, was to use a meter and base I have on hand with a couple of load types, and not to touch my house meter at all.

What I really want to do is disassemble it and see what's inside it. If there's any circuitry to speak of, I will attempt to trace it out and draw a schematic. I want to wee what makes it tick.

I guess it could be something as simple as a pair of power resistors that partially bypass some current past the meter. That would clearly be for theft of power, which I won't do.

Fulthrotl

02-03-2009, 08:19 PM

Good point. That reinforces my suspicion that it somehow interferes with the proper operation of the meter, and that it therefore constitutes theft. And no matter what their web site says, if they state that their product can, and has, saved money on electric bills, then they are a party to theft. That, at least, is the opinion I plan on bringing to the Electric League meeting later this month.

this is presuming the thing actually *does* something besides move money
from your checking account to theirs. i suspect that is the limit of it's
functionality.

fraud is most certainly being committed here, but not against a poco.

it's a perfect setup. they lead you to draw conclusions about their product,
which in no way fuctions, and if you complain, then it means you failed to
steal electricity, which in california is a felony.

it's like calling the police to complain that the saturday night special you
bought to stick up a liquor store misfired, and you were defrauded. :D

O! The Horror!

randy

ohm

02-03-2009, 09:03 PM

Well, what I had in mind, as far as documenting its effectiveness, was to use a meter and base I have on hand with a couple of load types, and not to touch my house meter at all.

What I really want to do is disassemble it and see what's inside it. If there's any circuitry to speak of, I will attempt to trace it out and draw a schematic. I want to wee what makes it tick.

I guess it could be something as simple as a pair of power resistors that partially bypass some current past the meter. That would clearly be for theft of power, which I won't do.

I was just kidding about actually hooking it up to your house. You do however have a good plan and I would be glad to kick in $10.

I believe you'll probably find a few MOV's in the box and they will have some sort of rational for advertising their product.