poco not taking responsibility?

[brantmacga]

I'm looking for input as to how your power company handles these situations:



Scenario;

The customer's meter was replaced w/ the digital type a few days ago without notice. They only realized it had been changed because whoever did it left some of their tools next to the meter base.

Last night, they lose half their lights. Customer calls poco; lineman shows up and says one of the jaws has burned off and their service needs to be replaced. He puts the meter back in, seals it, and leaves.

I opened up the can, which was still hot, and found one of the load side jaws has burned off. The conductors don't show any damage from overheating.

The outer side of the jaw was severely bent towards the outside of the can, and the inner side was laying in the bottom of the can.

Now, of course this is me speculating, but it looks like the jaw was bent when the new meter was installed; the part that was still remaining didn't show any damage. So it overheats the only side that is in contact and it melts away.


I called the construction supervisor at the poco (REA) and explain this. He said they normally would fix it, but since the meter base is old, they don't have the parts to do it. They won't touch it.

The poco won't reconnect to a new meter base until its been inspected. The inspection department won't pass the job unless the service is completely rebuilt. It's a 150A back-to-back fed w/ SEU. The inspector wants a new 200A w/ a disconnect, and now the service conductors up the mast will need to be changed to 4//0.

The customer is running their fridge and some lights off a 5kw portable generator; they have no heat and we're having freezing temperatures right now. I was prepared to fix it for them today, but poco and inspection dept. won't do anything until tomorrow. I had to tell the customer to call someone else because I can't do it until monday.

I think the customer is getting shafted. What say you?

[zbang]

I think so, too. If the socket was damaged before the new meter was installed, then the PoCo shoulnd't have put in a new one. If it was OK, then it's a far stretch to think that anyone besides the PoCo could have broken it. And, well, "you touch it...".

[charlie]

This can only be resolved by going up the serving electric utility's chain of command. If this doesn't work, there is adverse publicity through the newspapers or television. Since this is a rural electric, the state public service commission has no authority. The last resort is lots of pictures, documentation, and a lawsuit in a small claims court. :mad:

[pbeasley]

The poco won't reconnect to a new meter base until its been inspected. The inspection department won't pass the job unless the service is completely rebuilt. It's a 150A back-to-back fed w/ SEU. The inspector wants a new 200A w/ a disconnect, and now the service conductors up the mast will need to be changed to 4//0.

Sounds like a PITA all around. I feel sorry for the HO.

on a side note, I thought the service conductors in the mast could be 2/0 on a 200A service. Did I miss something?

[satcom]

Are you sure the POCO changed out the meter? not someone looking to beat a high energy billing.

[LarryFine]

The inspector wants a new 200A w/ a disconnect...Based on what??? :confused:

Time to climb the food chain.

I think the customer is getting shafted. What say you?Absolutely! :mad: Get legal!


Added: The POCO should cover the expense whether they have parts or not.

[Cavie]

I'm looking for input as to how your power company handles these situations:



Scenario;

The customer's meter was replaced w/ the digital type a few days ago without notice. They only realized it had been changed because whoever did it left some of their tools next to the meter base.

Last night, they lose half their lights. Customer calls poco; lineman shows up and says one of the jaws has burned off and their service needs to be replaced. He puts the meter back in, seals it, and leaves.

I opened up the can, which was still hot, and found one of the load side jaws has burned off. The conductors don't show any damage from overheating.

The outer side of the jaw was severely bent towards the outside of the can, and the inner side was laying in the bottom of the can.

Now, of course this is me speculating, but it looks like the jaw was bent when the new meter was installed; the part that was still remaining didn't show any damage. So it overheats the only side that is in contact and it melts away.


I called the construction supervisor at the poco (REA) and explain this. He said they normally would fix it, but since the meter base is old, they don't have the parts to do it. They won't touch it.

The poco won't reconnect to a new meter base until its been inspected. The inspection department won't pass the job unless the service is completely rebuilt. It's a 150A back-to-back fed w/ SEU. The inspector wants a new 200A w/ a disconnect, and now the service conductors up the mast will need to be changed to 4//0.

The customer is running their fridge and some lights off a 5kw portable generator; they have no heat and we're having freezing temperatures right now. I was prepared to fix it for them today, but poco and inspection dept. won't do anything until tomorrow. I had to tell the customer to call someone else because I can't do it until monday.

I think the customer is getting shafted. What say you?

What is the inspector baseing his request for a larger service on???? Did he do a load clac? all you nee to is replase the meter can.

[electricmanscott]

Is the meter socket too old to just replace the guts?

[220/221]

There is a bunch of that going on in my area also.


this is me speculating, but it looks like the jaw was bent when the new meter was installed

They would speculate pre existing conditions.

You would counter with "Aren't your feild guys trained to inspect before installation?"

They would counter with blah blah blah. If you complain enough, they will cover it. Is it worth it? That's up to the homeowner.

[Cow]

What a pain in the butt. Why do you have to change more than just a meterbase?

On a sidenote, our POCO is going to start installing digital remote read meters for 10,000 homes here shortly. Our company has been asked to be on standby in case a meterbase goes bad while swapping meters. Hopefully, our inspectors use a little more common sense than yours do....

[LarryFine]

Is the meter socket too old to just replace the guts?We're not allowed to do that here. "It's an assembly." :roll:

[LarryFine]

They would speculate pre existing conditions.

You would counter with "Aren't your feild guys trained to inspect before installation?"

They would counter with blah blah blah. At which point I'd ask "Well, who installed the first one?" :cool:


Added: Actually, I'd ask that as soon as they cited pre-existing conditions.

[iaov]

This sure sounds like a POCO screw up. I do not understand where an inspector gets off requiring a 200 amp service. Some one else said it before but I'll say it again. Did the inspector do a load calc and if so why. Inspectors don't do load calcs here (I don't believe most would know how). I'ld make some noise if I was the HO.

[active1]

IMO the customer can complain all they want but if they want it resolved any time soon it will cost them. I seen things like this go on for a good part of a year. After the POCO is done dealing with the customer they will forward the HO to their complaint voice mail box that's full. I never seen a POCO repair a customers equipment. I known linemen that would allow an emergency repair without a permit inspection.

I forgot, why do you need the POCO to do anything?

[brantmacga]

the basis for the 200A service is that the poco's (all of them here) won't connect to anything less on residential.

i told the homeowner my thoughts and the details of the conversation i had with them.

i'm certainly not going to argue with the poco; its not my fight, i just feel bad for the homeowner and was hoping they could argue for REA to cover the costs of repair. After all, it is the poco's equipment that failed.

i've had problems with this particular power company before not taking responsibility for their screw-ups. one i did argue all the way to the top because it was going to cost me a lot. the end result of that argument was, "its our system. if you want to be connected, you'll do it our way." and i had to rebuild a service and pay for modifications to the structure.

[frenchelectrican]

the basis for the 200A service is that the poco's (all of them here) won't connect to anything less on residential.




Brantmacga.,

Normally I don't like to start the debate but any chance do you have the documents that stated that kind requirement as you qouted to me ?

I know in state of Wisconsin it can be either 100 or 200 amp but 100 amp is the smallest size they will allowed in that size.

Also in EDF the smallest size service rating is 63 amps.

Merci,Marc

[arossi]

I'm looking for input as to how your power company handles these situations:



Scenario;

The customer's meter was replaced w/ the digital type a few days ago without notice. They only realized it had been changed because whoever did it left some of their tools next to the meter base.

Last night, they lose half their lights. Customer calls poco; lineman shows up and says one of the jaws has burned off and their service needs to be replaced. He puts the meter back in, seals it, and leaves.

I opened up the can, which was still hot, and found one of the load side jaws has burned off. The conductors don't show any damage from overheating.

The outer side of the jaw was severely bent towards the outside of the can, and the inner side was laying in the bottom of the can.

Now, of course this is me speculating, but it looks like the jaw was bent when the new meter was installed; the part that was still remaining didn't show any damage. So it overheats the only side that is in contact and it melts away.


I called the construction supervisor at the poco (REA) and explain this. He said they normally would fix it, but since the meter base is old, they don't have the parts to do it. They won't touch it.

The poco won't reconnect to a new meter base until its been inspected. The inspection department won't pass the job unless the service is completely rebuilt. It's a 150A back-to-back fed w/ SEU. The inspector wants a new 200A w/ a disconnect, and now the service conductors up the mast will need to be changed to 4//0.

The customer is running their fridge and some lights off a 5kw portable generator; they have no heat and we're having freezing temperatures right now. I was prepared to fix it for them today, but poco and inspection dept. won't do anything until tomorrow. I had to tell the customer to call someone else because I can't do it until monday.

I think the customer is getting shafted. What say you?



Do you have to install a "fused" disconnect or can you get by with just a 200a non-fused, the main in the panel is still 150A (I think?) then you won't have to change any conductors. At least in my neck of the woods you can do this.

[brantmacga]

Brantmacga.,

Normally I don't like to start the debate but any chance do you have the documents that stated that kind requirement as you qouted to me ?

I know in state of Wisconsin it can be either 100 or 200 amp but 100 amp is the smallest size they will allowed in that size.

Also in EDF the smallest size service rating is 63 amps.

Merci,Marc


no i don't have them, but you can get them from the poco if you would like to see them.

they will connect to a 200A service on non-residential; like a barn or pond house and the like.

its nothing to debate as i have no say in their requirements.

[c2500]

This can only be resolved by going up the serving electric utility's chain of command. If this doesn't work, there is adverse publicity through the newspapers or television. Since this is a rural electric, the state public service commission has no authority. The last resort is lots of pictures, documentation, and a lawsuit in a small claims court. :mad:

Charlie,

Would you elaborate on this? I have never heard of a utility not being subject to the PSC. I would love to get more detail.

Thanks,

c2500

[GUNNING]

OK personal experience talking here. Smile. Back away. Don't intimate blame. Get card back if possible.
I complained to the POCO once. Everytime I call I get transfered to the Theft Prevention department. Name documented and politely told they will forward it to the appropriate department. I quite calling. I don't do any service involved work. I don't receive letters from them telling me the theft of power is a felony and will result in the loss of my license.

It started from not being able to get a smoking meter base tag cut and meter pulled. Not getting a truck dispatched for a line down with a building that was energized and having the dispatcher laughing and telling me the next shift MIGHT handle it. It has ended up with one inspector at the local AHJ on a witch hunt, linemen laughing and less than helpful as they mess up on the customers dime.
Pick you battles. I don't want to, and have not voluntarily done a service since. It's a career decision.

True story.

[charlietuna]

"DOCUMENTATION" !!! The power company makes mistakes just like electrcal contractors! If you care to do the job,(?) I would photograph everything. Part of your job is to protect your customer. I would educate him/her of your professional concerns and let them decide to go to war with the power company and if they do you will have the photos and testimony to help them. In the meantime they need power and to get it you (they) will be required to follow the authority's rules-right or wrong ! It has been my experience that with proper documentation-and by not exposing them publically--the power company will pay for their mistakes....

Consider a million+ dollar mistake in a power company vault where they terminated the customer's(a college) neutrals on the vault's ground bus and terminated the customer's grounds on the vault's neutral bus. A phase to phase short by an Electrical Contractor started a major meltdown of a college's service switchgear. The chain of events cause extream damage since the vault's miswiring prevented the safety equipment to protect to customer's wiring. Luckily-- i was called and took photos of the entire damage including the vault(miswiring) wiring. Within the following 12 hour period--the power company changed their vault wiring -- then denied any wrong doing the following morning ! Two years later, after all repairs were made and insurance claims payed - I was contacted by an attorney who was interested in suing the gear manufacturer(sq-d). Basically the insurance company was trying to find others to pay their claim. They got copies of my photos--sat down with the power company and were payed in full by the power company.

[charlie]

. . . I have never heard of a utility not being subject to the PSC. . .
The REMCs are a result of a federal act (Rural Electric Administration) and the state normally has no control over them. They qualify for almost free money (low int. loans) and all of the customers are quasi-owners. :smile:

[ptonsparky]

Sure makes me glad to deal with our REAs.

[Minuteman]

The PoCo answers to somebody. Here we have the Corporation Commissioners. The C.C. regulates our public utilities and handle disputes. There has to be some entity that the PoCo is accountable to.

[charlie]

. . . There has to be some entity that the PoCo is accountable to.
Yep, it is their elected board of directors and they are elected from the membership. Pick any REMC, go to their website, dig into the structure, and see how they are put together. :smile:

[Minuteman]

Had something similar happen.

This meter was pulled at an apartment for non payment. The PoCo guy slipped these little plastic "booties" over the load side spades and stuck the meter back in and put a red seal on. Sometime later, lady pays the bill and PoCo guy comes out at dusk, pulls the booties, and seals the meter green.

Next day, lady tells maintenance man half her power is off and none of her 240V stuff works. He calls PoCo. They remove the meter and tell him the meter base (pan) has to be replaced, as a prong was bent on the line side.

Maintenace called me.

I got there and called PoCo and asked if the guy to meet me there. He shut down all 4 units power and I swaped out the left side prongs (line and load) with a set from a brand new meter base. All the power was off for maybe 30 minutes, but I had like 2 hours in it. Sent the bill to PoCo's claim office and they paid in 30 days.

[charlietuna]

Had a commercial customer call me early in the morning before i left for work who asked me to come by his house since they had a house fire ?? I arrived to find he had a 400 amp meter socket fed by the power company underground with 200 amp primary cable. Power Company's feed caught fire and burnt up as his wife backed out of the garage on her way to work --the meter was located between the garage doors-- burnt the meter socket up big time--was fed from a pad mount transformer in his front yard. Replaced the meter and the damaged service wire - power company replaced the service lateral with 400 amp primary cable. Customer forwarded my bill to the power company and they payed me. And yes, his wife admitted she had to change her underpants before leaving the house!

[brantmacga]

i ended up having to pass on the job because my schedule was full the first day the poco was available to come out for the cut-out; i knew they needed that fixed right away and just couldn't get to it.

they asked if i thought it was the power company's fault; i told them i couldn't prove anything, but yes there's a good chance they screwed up. i backed off after that.


one thing i don't understand though;

i've replaced damaged metering equipment before on georgia power's system, and they paid for it since it belongs to them. i'm wondering why REA didn't offer to pay for the repair. i didn't mention anything about this to the customer though.

[ohm]

Had a commercial customer call me early in the morning before i left for work who asked me to come by his house since they had a house fire ?? I arrived to find he had a 400 amp meter socket fed by the power company underground with 200 amp primary cable. Power Company's feed caught fire and burnt up as his wife backed out of the garage on her way to work --the meter was located between the garage doors-- burnt the meter socket up big time--was fed from a pad mount transformer in his front yard. Replaced the meter and the damaged service wire - power company replaced the service lateral with 400 amp primary cable. Customer forwarded my bill to the power company and they payed me. And yes, his wife admitted she had to change her underpants before leaving the house!

What gets me is we have to use 4/0 4/0 2/0 AL up to the service point for a 200A and the POCO connects w/ #4 AL (or less).

[GUNNING]

Electrical Utilities use there own standards. Its called the NSC National Safety Code. That way they don't have to run a separate ground and neutral. Like the mobile home manufacturers have there own building (manufacturing) code. Thats why we have the exception of 4 inches of wire hanging outside of the box in a mobile home. Don't like the rules? Make up your own governing body and become your own expert. Its the American way.

[brantmacga]

nEsc; national electrical safety code.

why would they need to run separate grounded and grounding conductors on the laterals & drops?