Tighten tug and re-tighten ?

[Natfuelbilll]

Question 1...........
Who, when terminating a conductor, will tighten - then tug (or wiggle) - then re-tighten?

Question 2.........
Have you ever used a torque wrench to measure your efforts?

[Mr. Wizard]

Question 1...........
Who, when terminating a conductor, will tighten - then tug (or wiggle) - then re-tighten?

Question 2.........
Have you ever used a torque wrench to measure your efforts?

Manufacturing plant here in town requires all lugs to be torqued, and they'll go behind you to verify. I don't mind doing it at other places, either. If the manufacturer has a specific value to tighten their lugs, may as well make it right.

[quogueelectric]

#1 Yes
#2 yes but usually only on critical loads /lugs such as Primary and or large current bussbar assembly. Rarely have I torqued a small Lower voltage conductor. Only when it is in the spec.

[Cow]

Question 1...........
Who, when terminating a conductor, will tighten - then tug (or wiggle) - then re-tighten?

Question 2.........
Have you ever used a torque wrench to measure your efforts?

1. We do. Especially since our inspector checks connections by wiggling the wires to see if they'll pull out. It's happened more than once....

2. No.

[brian john]

We always torque.

[petersonra]

use torque wrench. otherwise you are likely to overtorque.

[cadpoint]

Question 1...........
Who, when terminating a conductor, will tighten - then tug (or wiggle) - then re-tighten?

Are you talking about the lug spinning as you tighten it, yes it happens?
Usually I'll get someone to hold the lug with a channel lock! If it's a case of you think you might have stripped the threads, you probably heard the squeal of the metal threads first and you are beyond the Limit of the Torque. (see link below)


Question 2.........
Have you ever used a torque wrench to measure your efforts?
Yes!

The first is a manufactures sight that sells torque equipment, while it might be above casual reading, there is a great diagram at the bottom of the page, Here (http://www.hbm.com/en/menu/applications/torque-measurement/terms-expressions/load-limits/) !

This link Here (http://www.raskcycle.com/techtip/webdoc14.html) gives and over view of U.S. Bolt torque specifications and what bolts to use when and where. Remember this is just the bolt not the nut :roll:

A nut specification is Here (http://www.imperialinc.com/pdf/A_FastenerTorqueCharts.pdf), another manufactures sight, note that the nut is closer to torque values you'll read about on any hardware/equipment that require and state torque limits, and why one should use a torque wrench, (OK, JUST MY OP!)

I'm a big fan of using a torque wrench!

Hope that helps!

[Red Wiggler]

We have a Standardize Acceptance Procedure (SAP) that we use on all of our jobs. We use calibrated torque wrenches on all of our bolts (minimum Grade 5, usually Grade 8 hardware) and torque screwdrivers when terminating on breakers. All nuts and screw heads are painted (with a stripe) to verify visually that they have been torqued. Everything is documented.

[electricalperson]

i use a torque wrench and a torque screwdriver pretty frequently

[cadpoint]

This is a link to a lug manufacture (http://www.ilsco.com/newweb/IlscoHome.nsf/Web+Pages/Torque+Information) that shows their products and torque valves and some other appliable nut and bolt configurations and there legends and valves. Active viewers have seen this link before.

Thanks to a friend! :smile: :wink: :cool:

[JES2727]

Question 1...........
Who, when terminating a conductor, will tighten - then tug (or wiggle) - then re-tighten?

Question 2.........
Have you ever used a torque wrench to measure your efforts?

I always torque larger conductors ( 1/0 and larger), but never smaller ones. I usually don't wiggle or tug or shake the wires, although I had a guy in my employ for a while who would tighten the lugs as tight as he could make them, then grab the wire with both hands and shake the heck out of it! Then he'd tighten it some more. That's the way he was taught and as far as he was concerned that was the only way to do it. I asked him to stop doing it that way and handed him a torque wrench. He didn't like it, but he did it my way.

[chris kennedy]

Where in the gear torque specs or in the torque wrench instructions does it say:

'Torque, shake, repeat?':-?

[ohm]

We have a Standardize Acceptance Procedure (SAP) that we use on all of our jobs. We use calibrated torque wrenches on all of our bolts (minimum Grade 5, usually Grade 8 hardware) and torque screwdrivers when terminating on breakers. All nuts and screw heads are painted (with a stripe) to verify visually that they have been torqued. Everything is documented.

Sounds very professional. I noticed in your profile you're a Pre-Planner...whats that?

[Red Wiggler]

Sounds very professional. I noticed in your profile you're a Pre-Planner...whats that?


A Pre-planner is a person (usually comes from the field, Foreman, General Foreman, Super.) that takes a job that is under contract, or has a letter of intent and using AutoCAD lays out the service, underground, slabs, walls, overhead, cabletray, conduit racks, lighting (lighting controllers) special systems, fire alarm, creates panels schedules based on the pre-plan, temporary layout, etc. Anything that is needed to clarify the drawings for the Foreman in the field. We also have a "Trimble" robot that works off of radio signal, and uses a tripod mounted laser transit to plot the exact location of conduit stub-ups, homerun boxes, underground ductbanks, site lighting, conduit and cable tray racks (layed out on decks above and installed anchors to suspend the all-thread for the racks below prior to the concrete pour). We also work in conjunction with a Pre-Fab shop to route as much work through them (in a controlled envirnoment)and then sent out to the jobs. This includes wire, cable, mc, conduit bends, pre-fabbed concrete boxes, fixture whips, support brackets for can lights, etc.
If the foreman that is running the job follows the Pre-Plan prints (colored and circuited in the correct color) that we give them, then they end up with a compelete "As-built" job before they set foot on site. We are also in charge of submitting "shop drawings" for electric rooms, necessary circuitry, MEP coordination drawings, RFIs, etc.

Sounds like a lot of stuff to do, but the Foreman in the field love it. They continue to ask for more. We can recognize problems (in Pre-Planning)and in most cases reslove the issues before the Foreman ever sees them (although they are made aware of the changes), especially with the MEP coordination.

We didn't invent Pre-Planning...it is being done all over the country with outstanding results. This is the product of incomplete Engineering, poor drawings, and the multitude of questions (RFIs) that we encounter nowadays. The last big job that we did had over 1100 RFIs (not all electrical) 12 ASIs, and 110 CCDs. (this job was not pre-planned)

In the defense of the Engineers...they are doing all that they can to engineer jobs considering the time constraits, and budgets, codes, ordinances, etc. they we are forced to comply with in this day and age. It all boils down to the cost of money. The invester wants an imediate return on his money. Get it Engineered, get it built, and get it on-line as fast as possible.

[ohm]

A Pre-planner is a person (usually comes from the field, Foreman, General Foreman, Super.) that takes a job that is under contract, or has a letter of intent and using AutoCAD lays out the service, underground, slabs, walls, overhead, cabletray, conduit racks, lighting (lighting controllers) special systems, fire alarm, creates panels schedules based on the pre-plan, temporary layout, etc. Anything that is needed to clarify the drawings for the Foreman in the field. We also have a "Trimble" robot that works off of radio signal, and uses a tripod mounted laser transit to plot the exact location of conduit stub-ups, homerun boxes, underground ductbanks, site lighting, conduit and cable tray racks (layed out on decks above and installed anchors to suspend the all-thread for the racks below prior to the concrete pour). We also work in conjunction with a Pre-Fab shop to route as much work through them (in a controlled envirnoment)and then sent out to the jobs. This includes wire, cable, mc, conduit bends, pre-fabbed concrete boxes, fixture whips, support brackets for can lights, etc.
If the foreman that is running the job follows the Pre-Plan prints (colored and circuited in the correct color) that we give them, then they end up with a compelete "As-built" job before they set foot on site. We are also in charge of submitting "shop drawings" for electric rooms, necessary circuitry, MEP coordination drawings, RFIs, etc.

Sounds like a lot of stuff to do, but the Foreman in the field love it. They continue to ask for more. We can recognize problems (in Pre-Planning)and in most cases reslove the issues before the Foreman ever sees them (although they are made aware of the changes), especially with the MEP coordination.

We didn't invent Pre-Planning...it is being done all over the country with outstanding results. This is the product of incomplete Engineering, poor drawings, and the multitude of questions (RFIs) that we encounter nowadays. The last big job that we did had over 1100 RFIs (not all electrical) 12 ASIs, and 110 CCDs. (this job was not pre-planned)

In the defense of the Engineers...they are doing all that they can to engineer jobs considering the time constraits, and budgets, codes, ordinances, etc. they we are forced to comply with in this day and age. It all boils down to the cost of money. The invester wants an imediate return on his money. Get it Engineered, get it built, and get it on-line as fast as possible.

Cool, sounds like you guys earn your keep!

[Mr. Wizard]

A Pre-planner is a person (usually comes from the field, Foreman, General Foreman, Super.) that takes a job that is under contract, or has a letter of intent and using AutoCAD lays out the service, underground, slabs, walls, overhead, cabletray, conduit racks, lighting (lighting controllers) special systems, fire alarm, creates panels schedules based on the pre-plan, temporary layout, etc. Anything that is needed to clarify the drawings for the Foreman in the field. We also have a "Trimble" robot that works off of radio signal, and uses a tripod mounted laser transit to plot the exact location of conduit stub-ups, homerun boxes, underground ductbanks, site lighting, conduit and cable tray racks (layed out on decks above and installed anchors to suspend the all-thread for the racks below prior to the concrete pour). We also work in conjunction with a Pre-Fab shop to route as much work through them (in a controlled envirnoment)and then sent out to the jobs. This includes wire, cable, mc, conduit bends, pre-fabbed concrete boxes, fixture whips, support brackets for can lights, etc.
If the foreman that is running the job follows the Pre-Plan prints (colored and circuited in the correct color) that we give them, then they end up with a compelete "As-built" job before they set foot on site. We are also in charge of submitting "shop drawings" for electric rooms, necessary circuitry, MEP coordination drawings, RFIs, etc.

Sounds like a lot of stuff to do, but the Foreman in the field love it. They continue to ask for more. We can recognize problems (in Pre-Planning)and in most cases reslove the issues before the Foreman ever sees them (although they are made aware of the changes), especially with the MEP coordination.

We didn't invent Pre-Planning...it is being done all over the country with outstanding results. This is the product of incomplete Engineering, poor drawings, and the multitude of questions (RFIs) that we encounter nowadays. The last big job that we did had over 1100 RFIs (not all electrical) 12 ASIs, and 110 CCDs. (this job was not pre-planned)

In the defense of the Engineers...they are doing all that they can to engineer jobs considering the time constraits, and budgets, codes, ordinances, etc. they we are forced to comply with in this day and age. It all boils down to the cost of money. The invester wants an imediate return on his money. Get it Engineered, get it built, and get it on-line as fast as possible.

What part of the world are you in?

[GUNNING]

That sounds way cool. Im trying to imagine the redneck foreman trying to coordinate his conduit bends and hangers with the dumb as a stump sledge hammer mechanic. Then the thought of a well thought out job easily laid out and preplanned like it was out of a kit, now that would be fun. What part of the world and what type of projects?

[Natfuelbilll]

Where in the gear torque specs or in the torque wrench instructions does it say:

'Torque, shake, repeat?':-?

I have seen some electricians "seat" the wire during tightening.

More as a method than as a step by step.

Is there a benefit?

....I wonder what the IR thermographers have seen....

[hardworkingstiff]

Where in the gear torque specs or in the torque wrench instructions does it say:

'Torque, shake, repeat?':-?

Good question Chris. I am curious though, if the inspector "shakes" it and it feel loose, ......... ?

I've also torqued, "shaked", then checked it with a torque wrench to find the connection very loose. I'm not comfortable with leaving a connection without some shaking, but I'm also concerned I'm doing things I shouldn't.

[electricmanscott]

1. We do. Especially since our inspector checks connections by wiggling the wires to see if they'll pull out. It's happened more than once....


The inspector should not be doing that. If you tighten and leave alone it will likely be fine. Once you start wiggling it WILL losen up a bit. Does he retighten when he's done?

[Red Wiggler]

What part of the world are you in?

Austin Texas is the nearest big city, our headquarters are in Manor (pronounced May-nor) just East of Austin. We have small shops in Dallas, Houston, and in the Valley (Down South). We also have a small office in San Antonio.

[hardworkingstiff]

Where in the gear torque specs or in the torque wrench instructions does it say:

'Torque, shake, repeat?':-?

I called the Square D rep today and told him I was installing two 4/0 cables in a lug on a 400-amp breaker. I told him I have been in discussions with other electricians on what the proper way to tighten the conductors is. I told him some electricians say torgue it and leave it, and others (including me) torgue it to the spec, wiggle the conductors about an inch to an inch and a half in all directions then torque it again, repeat until the torgue setting holds after the "wiggling".

I asked him what the proper methodology would be for tightening the lug on this breaker (the lug is rated for 2 conductors up to 250 kcmil).

Here is his response:

Lou,
I talked to our breaker application engineer & he said what you are doing is a good practice.
There is nothing in writing in our instructions, but it makes practical sense to retighten
these lugs.
There is more chance for the conductors to " spead out & settle in" when using 2 conductors.

[chris kennedy]

Thanks Lou, I'll think about that. To this day I have been a torque-em leave them guy.

[chris kennedy]

One more thing. If I wiggle and retorque the parallels, now I have to retorque the mains connections to the buss due to the fact that the shaking has compromised that connecioin also. Sounds like work I don't have time to do.

[hardworkingstiff]

One more thing. If I wiggle and retorque the parallels, now I have to retorque the mains connections to the buss due to the fact that the shaking has compromised that connecioin also. Sounds like work I don't have time to do.

Fact? That's a strong word.

The breaker I was using is in an enclosure with line and load conductors. Most of the 400-amp breakers I use are either I-Line or bolted to the buss and shaking the conductors would not loosen that bolted connection. You must be talking about something I've not had experience with.

[Natfuelbilll]

Question 2.........
Have you ever used a torque wrench to measure your efforts?

I am not 100% sure that all manufacturers termination provide a spec for tightness, I would bet most do, and where they do is it then a Code violation to NOT use a torque measuring device?

[chris kennedy]

and where they do is it then a Code violation to NOT use a torque measuring device?

I doubt you will get a red-tag for not using a torque wrench, but IMO it is implied.

110.14

FPN: Many terminations and equipment are marked with a tightening torque.Handbook commentary following 110.14.

Section 110.3(B) applies where terminations and equipment are marked with tightening torques.

[hardworkingstiff]

I doubt you will get a red-tag for not using a torque wrench, but IMO it is implied.


I agree. It's also the difference between a professional and .......

[Natfuelbilll]

I agree. It's also the difference between a professional and .......

For clarification... do you mean a professional will use torque measuring tools for terminations, whereas a ......(unqualified ?) would not?

[Mr. Wizard]

Austin Texas is the nearest big city, our headquarters are in Manor (pronounced May-nor) just East of Austin. We have small shops in Dallas, Houston, and in the Valley (Down South). We also have a small office in San Antonio.

I know exactly where Manor is located. I heard that work is booming in Austin, but I heard that two or three months ago. It seems everytime I drive into Austin I see several high-rise cranes west of I-35 , near UTA.