One hole straps, up or down?

[Mr. Wizard]

Curious about how ya'll install your one-hole straps. Do you put them on with the hole over the conduit, or under the conduit (assuming the conduit is running horizontal along a wall). I put them on with the hole under the conduit. I had a helper who would put them on with the hole above the conduit, and asked him why don't he put them on the right way, IMO, and he said his way was right because if it is strapped to the wall, it is considered a hanger :-?. But either way that it's done, it should be consistent throughout the run.

[iwire]

I predict 500+ posts on this subject. :D



Up, down, whatever looks good for the work at hand while trying to remain consistent in any one area.

[Flex]

i was taught the hole underneath the pipe but i dont think its extremely important.

[augie47]

I predict 500+ posts on this subject. :D



.

on it's way to fame along with that other unmentionable up-down question ??:D

[tkb]

Under.....

[infinity]

If the fastener is tight it doesn't really matter. I would go with whichever method is more aesthetically appealing. I once worked with a guy would alternate them, first strap top, next bottom, next top. Really looked silly on a long pipe run. :roll:

[ItsHot]

I predict 500+ posts on this subject. :D



Up, down, whatever looks good for the work at hand while trying to remain consistent in any one area. Bob this may be like the "receptacle ground up thing"!! I usually put the hole in the strap "down" on horizontal run work. Sometimes I even place the hole down on vertical work!:D

[ItsHot]

on it's way to fame along with that other unmentionable up-down question ??:D
Sorry Gus! I slipped and mentioned it!!:rolleyes:

[iwire]

Adding a poll for this topic.

[Dennis Alwon]

Adding a poll for this topic.

Where's the poll. There it is... :D

[Dennis Alwon]

Now explain up or down. Up is under the pipe and down on top or does up means the strap is on top of the pipe

[SEO]

Usually down unless we are trying to match an existing run that has them up.

[Dennis Alwon]

up and down can mean different things to different folks. Over and under or up and down which is which. :smile:

[tryinghard]

Up on horizontal runs looks like it’s holding rather than grabbing the conduit. If in doubt use two holes.

[Rewire]

I always have placed them under because I place my level on the top.

[Karl H]

Look at any pipe run in any existing commercial/industrial building, were EMT
is strapped with one-hole straps. You will find more EMT pulled off the wall
were the one-holes are on bottom compared to the one holes on top.

I can do pull ups on EMT supported with one-hole straps on top of the pipe
and the EMT will still hug the wall.

[Karl H]

In my post, (Top )-screw hole for the one -hole strap is above the pipe.:smile:

[triplstep]

No preference. The installation will decide.

[ItsHot]

up and down can mean different things to different folks. Over and under or up and down which is which. :smile: "who's on first"?:D:confused::confused::smile:

[daleuger]

They can go either way. Depends on if you're running one or if multiple which one is going up first how close they are etc etc etc

I always have placed them under because I place my level on the top.

They have these crazy inventions called magnets that they've started attaching to levels that allow you to put it on either side of your pipe.:D

[Rewire]

They can go either way. Depends on if you're running one or if multiple which one is going up first how close they are etc etc etc



They have these crazy inventions called magnets that they've started attaching to levels that allow you to put it on either side of your pipe.:D

I have lost several Klien levels due to a twenty foot drop to the concrete because of trhe cheapo magnets they use. I have an expensive earth magnet level but old habits are not easily broken.

[William1978]

I install mine under.

[nakulak]

Look at any pipe run in any existing commercial/industrial building, were EMT
is strapped with one-hole straps. You will find more EMT pulled off the wall
were the one-holes are on bottom compared to the one holes on top.

I can do pull ups on EMT supported with one-hole straps on top of the pipe
and the EMT will still hug the wall.

I was wondering if I was the only one thinking that. I looked up to see if I could find any manufacturer's instructions for that reason but haven't found any. Anyway, for the above reason I try to always put them on correctly.

[Kdog76]

Look at any pipe run in any existing commercial/industrial building, were EMT
is strapped with one-hole straps. You will find more EMT pulled off the wall
were the one-holes are on bottom compared to the one holes on top.

I can do pull ups on EMT supported with one-hole straps on top of the pipe
and the EMT will still hug the wall.

I guess that's why I was trained to do so also... Other employers who came after made put the strap with the hole on the bottom. Now that I'm my own boss I'm really confused which way to go :D.

[daleuger]

I have lost several Klien levels due to a twenty foot drop to the concrete because of trhe cheapo magnets they use. I have an expensive earth magnet level but old habits are not easily broken.

Right on. I owned one Klein level then after that no more. I don't care much for their channel locks either. Most everything else they're good to go.

[growler]

Look at any pipe run in any existing commercial/industrial building, were EMT
is strapped with one-hole straps. You will find more EMT pulled off the wall
were the one-holes are on bottom compared to the one holes on top.

I can do pull ups on EMT supported with one-hole straps on top of the pipe
and the EMT will still hug the wall.

This is true. I was taught this by my helper in 1989. He had been in the trade for many years and never done anything but run conduit but he was really good at it. This one guy taught me many tricks of the trade that I hadn't considered before.

You are not that likely to see anyone pushing up on conduit but there is always the chance of someone pushing down on it. With the hole at the top you are covered 99% of the time.

[e57]

What about mineralac, K8 and strut using fools like myself?


Although I have been known to alternate them solely to make space for other straps - it is not absolute, whatever looks like it supports the conduit withing applicable support rules. That said I do like to have some uniformity on the exposed stuff.

I can do pull ups on EMT supported with one-hole straps on top of the pipe
and the EMT will still hug the wall.Sure if you're using maluable iron backed straps it wouldn't matter which way you hang them....

[daleuger]

Karl and Growler may be right (not agreeing or disagreeing) but I was also among those taught to put the screw on the bottom. Not that I always do now. Reason being that the open side of the strap on the bottom it is more likely just to bend the strap open and let the pipe go if somebody grabbed it or pushed down on it, leaving a strap hanging up there holding no conduit.

[peter d]

I have never, ever even thought about this until someone once told me "You put the straps in upside down." I was like: :-?:-? He then gave me a line of reasoning about why they should go a certain direction. I thought it was bogus and I still don't think it makes a difference.

[charlietuna]

On odd days we put them up and even days we put them down--that way we know what day they were installed....:D

[daleuger]

What about if you're running vertical, hole on the left or right? Rut-roh!!! :D

[Mr.Sparkle]

What about if you're running vertical, hole on the left or right? Rut-roh!!! :D

Now you've done it, that's it I can't handle it anymore. I am changing professions.

[Fulthrotl]

Sorry Gus! I slipped and mentioned it!!:rolleyes:

mentioned what?

[tkb]

If you let go of it, and it does not fall, is it supported??? :-?

[quogueelectric]

In 1984 I watched a movie from the mfg which specifically stated to install with the holes upwards. That was the way they were designed to be used. I have done it that way eversince much to the displeasure of many who did not view the film. They are designed to hang the pipe and when weight is placed on the pipe in this fasion it does not pry the strap off the wall loosening the strap. Ok I have my Kevlar underwear on now.

[220/221]

Well....you asked if the hole goes over or under but the poll says up or down so I was confused.:rolleyes:

Logic dictates that you put the screw under. We have all seen conduit popped out of a bent strap



What about if you're running vertical, hole on the left or right? Rut-roh!!!

That's when you alternate :)

[iwire]

Well....you asked if the hole goes over or under but the poll says up or down so I was confused.:rolleyes:

I added the poll and used the words that Mr. Wizard use the title of this thread.

Logic dictates that you put the screw under. We have all seen conduit popped out of a bent strap

OK then, case closed, we can all go home.:D

[K8MHZ]

In Jiffy's nomenclature their straps are drawn as to be installed with the screw on the bottom:

http://www.minerallac.com/PDF%27s/Traditional/One%20Hole%20Straps.pdf

However, it is my understanding that one hole straps are designed as hangars and as such should be installed with the tab on top.

This topic has got me interested as whether or not one hole straps are listed for use on ceilings, no matter what the material they are made of.

There is not a plethora of info on this topic on the 'Net for some reason.

[iwire]

I edited the poll wording.

[jeremysterling]

I heard this logic of screw above pipe last year and agree with it. I did some surface mount EMT at ~12" AFF on a block wall in a school where a child might use it to step up. I applied the screw up logic and installed accordingly.

[K8MHZ]

According to the poll the 'screw ups' are the minority.

I would have thought otherwise.....

[LarryFine]

I also voted hole-up, despite being told hole-down when I was a pup. If the conduit is being stressed enough to bend a 1-hole strap, it's not going to make much difference.

Simple physics says that, with the hole down, gravity will impart a prying force away from the wall, pulling outward on the screw. With the hole up, there's only shear force.

[LarryFine]

According to the poll the 'screw ups' are the minority.
That's okay. I'm used to being an unusual screw-up.

[e57]

If the conduit is being stressed enough to bend a 1-hole strap, it's not going to make much difference.
yES - WHAT YOU SAID...

[Mule]

My strap orientation is installed based upon where I think the strength is needed...

Just dont sell me those paper thin, one holes straps, ......cuz I'll return them every time.....along with those miny straps that fit either emt or rigid with the fixed bolt........:rolleyes: "Show me some iron"

[ohm]

Way on down.

[quogueelectric]

According to the poll the 'screw ups' are the minority.

I would have thought otherwise.....

I just follow the recomendations of the manufacturer if anyone wants me to install them upside down on thier license I will gladly install them that way in all future instalations for that person.

[ItsHot]

Ban the "one" hole straps! Use of 2 hole straps would solve the debate! Kind of like those receptacles that no matter which way you install them, ground is "up"!:-?

[LarryFine]

Kind of like those receptacles that no matter which way you install them, ground is "up"!:-?
Like Tom Baker's avatar? ;)

[480sparky]

Like Tom Baker's avatar? ;)

So someone else noticed it too, huh?:cool:

[LarryFine]

So someone else noticed it too, huh?:cool:
Noticed what? :D

[480sparky]

Noticed what? :D

Exactly! http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Emoticons/Bullseye_emoticon.gif

[alfiesauce]

Look at any pipe run in any existing commercial/industrial building, were EMT
is strapped with one-hole straps. You will find more EMT pulled off the wall
were the one-holes are on bottom compared to the one holes on top.


I have wondered about this often myself. One thing I fear (being a top one-hole strap guy myself) is that the reason you see the pipe being on the wall more with the top strap method is because if a bottom strapped pipe is bent out of shape the strap could still technically be hanging there because the strap has to bend so far back to let the pipe fall out of it, whereas with a top strap, once it's poped out of place you have to fix it because the pipe is falling down.

don't know if I explained that very well...

[hardworkingstiff]

don't know if I explained that very well...

It made sense to me.

[LarryFine]

It made sense to me.Scary, ain't it? :D

[steelersman]

Sure if you're using maluable iron backed straps it wouldn't matter which way you hang them....

yeah it would. you must not be understanding what Karl was saying. He mentioned a good point that I had never thought of before. Thanks Karl. What you said makes perfect sense and I will from now on mount mine with the hole above the conduit.

Also it's "malleable" not "maluable" and it has nothing to do with the excellent point that Karl made. :)

[A-1Sparky]

I like to alternate my straps (one up, then one down for horizontal runs or one left, then one right for vertical runs). This is, by far, a more secure installation than either all up or all down or all left or all right. Some may argue the "ugly" factor with alternating straps, but if you've got an exposed pipe run, does it really matter what the orientation of the straps are as far as being visually pleasing?:wink:

[izak]

most conduit that i run is exposed, and I prefer hole on top. for all reasons aforementioned.

of course, this run doesnt include one hole straps, but i put the 3/8" head of the bolt on the strut straps on top. (does that count?)

[izak]

heres one that includes one hole straps (I think)
i donno, i really HATE one hole straps. and sheetrock screws.

Im a UNISTRUT kinda guy.

I THINK that these Might have a one hole strap somewhere... I donno... I think so cause this one got a ceiling so its OK


NO CEILING = NO ONE HOLE STRAPS
NO BOX OFFSETS
FILE ALL ENDS Of Unistrut
NO WRITING ON WALLS
NO BS

[ohm]

heres one that includes one hole straps (I think)
i donno, i really HATE one hole straps. and sheetrock screws.

Im a UNISTRUT kinda guy.

I THINK that these Might have a one hole strap somewhere... I donno... I think so cause this one got a ceiling so its OK


NO CEILING = NO ONE HOLE STRAPS
NO BOX OFFSETS
FILE ALL ENDS Of Unistrut
NO WRITING ON WALLS
NO BS

Great Job!

[LarryFine]

Great Job!Agreed. I've always wondered whether racks bent like that are done by eye (doubtful) or using some kind of tables (likely).

Where does one find such info?

[peter d]

Agreed. I've always wondered whether racks bent like that are done by eye (doubtful) or using some kind of tables (likely).

Where does one find such info?

I'll bet another steak dinner that bending pipe that precisely and repeatably is impossible simply done by eye. Or for you, a 5 Guys lunch. ;)

[bradleyelectric]

The right way is with the mounting hole below the conduit and the level on top. That is unless the level has to be on bottom to make it easier to see. If there is more than 1 conduit and they are to close together to have both mounting holes down, spread them apart enough so this is no longer the case. If that is not possible than and only than is it permissible to have the mounting hole up. That is unless it would really look better up.

[ohm]

The right way is with the mounting hole below the conduit and the level on top. That is unless the level has to be on bottom to make it easier to see. If there is more than 1 conduit and they are to close together to have both mounting holes down, spread them apart enough so this is no longer the case. If that is not possible than and only than is it permissible to have the mounting hole up. That is unless it would really look better up.

I'm with you 100%...I think.

[steelersman]

The right way is with the mounting hole below the conduit and the level on top. That is unless the level has to be on bottom to make it easier to see. If there is more than 1 conduit and they are to close together to have both mounting holes down, spread them apart enough so this is no longer the case. If that is not possible than and only than is it permissible to have the mounting hole up. That is unless it would really look better up.
What is the code reference please.

Seriously, Karl has the best idea. monting hole topside so that it can't bend out or open. As far as looks go it looks fine either way IMO, but for practical purposes and for what will be a stronger hold and more durable install then holes topside.

[izak]

LarryFine:

Im still working on that table. As soon as I complete it, I will post it. it will take time as i am also working on a table for accurately bending rolled offsets against 90 bends

got a good start on that one too

yeah, Peter, i pull it out of my arse every day ;)

[jumper]

Great Job!

Darn tootin! That man can run pipe. Nice pics.:D

[izak]

thank you, and

I just ate a bitchin steak dinner. (that i paid for myself)

[LarryFine]

The right way is with the mounting hole below the conduit and the level on top. That is unless the level has to be on bottom to make it easier to see.That makes no difference. The strap goes around the pipe either way, so the level will be to either side of the strap.

If there is more than 1 conduit and they are to close together to have both mounting holes down, spread them apart enough so this is no longer the case.If I'm running only two pipes and not using strut, I use a single fastener between them for both straps.

If that is not possible than and only than is it permissible to have the mounting hole up.Who's "perrmissible" are we talking about, and what's Mr. Permissible's threshold for "not possible?"

That is unless it would really look better up.Oh, we missed that part:

Exception: Unless it looks better up. 8-)

[izak]

but it ALWAYS LOOKS BETTER UP!!!!

[electricalperson]

i put the hole below the conduit and when verticle i put the clip so you can read what it says without standing on your head

[alfiesauce]

i put the hole below the conduit and when verticle i put the clip so you can read what it says without standing on your head


Ohh... Thats what the customers are doing when they are standing on their heads near my pipe runs... Reading what the straps say... :roll:

[LarryFine]

i put the hole below the conduit and when verticle i put the clip so you can read what it says without standing on your head
My concern with hole below is that weight on the conduit imparts a pull-out force perpendicularly to the wall because of leverage, almots like a pry bar would.

Picture the screw left a few threads loosened. With the hole down, the conduit hangs away from the wall, but with the hole up, it still hangs flat on the wall.

[dreamsville]

My concern with hole below is that weight on the conduit imparts a pull-out force perpendicularly to the wall because of leverage, almots like a pry bar would.

Picture the screw left a few threads loosened. With the hole down, the conduit hangs away from the wall, but with the hole up, it still hangs flat on the wall.

Well said Larry. I've always put the hole on top with strap down. Seen to many conduit runs partially hanging off of walls when the holes are on the bottom just like Larry described. ;)

[480sparky]

75th post, and no one has bothered to wonder why the fasteners are loosening in the first place..... http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Emoticons/brick.gif

[Karl H]

75th post, and no one has bothered to wonder why the fasteners are loosening in the first place..... http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Emoticons/brick.gif

Let me guess.....Forklifts??? Forklifts are always the root of any electrical
problem. :D

[ItsHot]

75th post, and no one has bothered to wonder why the fasteners are loosening in the first place..... http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Emoticons/brick.gifMaybe it's because they used "plastic" anchors!??:rolleyes::D

[bradleyelectric]

Maybe it's because they used "plastic" anchors!??:rolleyes::D

no, no plastic anchors on this job, try again.

[Karl H]

no, no plastic anchors on this job, try again.

Non-Plastic anchors installed by fork-lifts?:smile:

[electricalperson]

My concern with hole below is that weight on the conduit imparts a pull-out force perpendicularly to the wall because of leverage, almots like a pry bar would.

Picture the screw left a few threads loosened. With the hole down, the conduit hangs away from the wall, but with the hole up, it still hangs flat on the wall.

i never had any problem with it lifting off of the wall. if something is causing the clip to bend and come off the wall then something is wrong. doesnt matter if its a plastic anchor in concrete or ez anchor in sheetrock

[steelersman]

75th post, and no one has bothered to wonder why the fasteners are loosening in the first place..... http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Emoticons/brick.gif
because the holes are bottomside. If they were topside then they wouldn't become loose on their own. And that's the facts.

[steelersman]

The right way is with the mounting hole below the conduit and the level on top. That is unless the level has to be on bottom to make it easier to see. If there is more than 1 conduit and they are to close together to have both mounting holes down, spread them apart enough so this is no longer the case. If that is not possible than and only than is it permissible to have the mounting hole up. That is unless it would really look better up.
do the world a favor and stay near Baltimore. :)

[iwire]

because the holes are bottomside. If they were topside then they wouldn't become loose on their own. And that's the facts.

There is very little in this thread that is fact, it is all opinions based on casual observations.

Up down, alternate ........ there is no 'correct' answer.

[active1]

Not long ago I was told a story about a debate at a EC about this. They asked the rep, didn't believe em so then called the tec support. Both times they were told hole up is how it was designed to hold. But then maybe it depends also on who the manufacture of the strap is. Some click on the pipe others don't. Some bend easy where others are made a bit stronger.

[roger3829]

If the pipe is above eye level then the screw goes below the pipe. If the pipe is below eye level the the screw goes above the pipe. Or what ever way I feel like that day, or what ever there is room for, or to match the existing.....:smile:

[dreamsville]

There is very little in this thread that is fact, it is all opinions based on casual observations.


And that's Bob's opinion that it is opinions. :smile:

[weressl]

Curious about how ya'll install your one-hole straps. Do you put them on with the hole over the conduit, or under the conduit (assuming the conduit is running horizontal along a wall). I put them on with the hole under the conduit. I had a helper who would put them on with the hole above the conduit, and asked him why don't he put them on the right way, IMO, and he said his way was right because if it is strapped to the wall, it is considered a hanger :-?. But either way that it's done, it should be consistent throughout the run.

The poll should've had the option of two hole strap:D

Neither have you specified if it is an odd or an even day.......:)

[steelersman]

And that's Bob's opinion that it is opinions. :smile:
exactly! Very well said! :)

[iwire]

exactly! Very well said! :)


If you can prove that one way is always better then the other way with facts I will change my opinion of your opinions.:D

[peter d]

There is very little in this thread that is fact, it is all opinions based on casual observations.

Up down, alternate ........ there is no 'correct' answer.

Which is exactly why I chose "Never worried about it and will not start worrying about it now." 8-)

[bikeindy]

this is a silly question but I played any way

[cowboyjwc]

I predict 500+ posts on this subject. :D



Up, down, whatever looks good for the work at hand while trying to remain consistent in any one area.

I'm easy and I'll just agree with Bob.

[MagnoliaElec]

When I have multiple runs of pipe running parallel I use the hole twice, one strap up one strap down.

[Mr. Wizard]

A lot of ya'll have some darn good arguments about putting the screw on top of the conduit as opposed to under it. Around here, it's rare to see the screw above the conduit. The reason being is if the strap, for whatever reason, deforms out of shape, the screw will still be there to support the conduit and keep it from falling. There was mention about the screws coming loose, but case in point I have seen a scrap piece of 3" RMC fall from a guys lift, hit the 3/4 EMT straped to the wall (using one holes with a toggle bolt below the conduit), and bend the strap into submission, but the toggle bolt held way. Of course the strap had to be relaced, as with the piece of EMT that was banged up. A rare event, something falling from a lift :D. Or you get the guys that are so poor at bending conduit that the straps are the only things keeping it plumb and level. And then years later demo that crooked piece out, and it has so much tension on it that it springs out from the wall :grin:

[jaylectricity]

I want to change my vote.

[480sparky]

because the holes are bottomside. If they were topside then they wouldn't become loose on their own. And that's the facts.

And that's backed up with.......?

[steelersman]

And that's backed up with.......?
physics, common sense, and the facts. :)

[hardworkingstiff]

I want to change my vote.

From what to what?

[480sparky]

physics, common sense, and the facts. :)

Provide them, please.

[bradleyelectric]

Provide them, please.

psst, have you taken a look at that guy. Just say "oh, I see what you mean" keep your hand on your pliers and keep moving.

[electricalperson]

if a 1 hole strap with the hole below the conduit comes off the wall the installer didnt do it right. end of story.

[LarryFine]

The reason being is if the strap, for whatever reason, deforms out of shape, the screw will still be there to support the conduit and keep it from falling. There was mention about the screws coming loose, but case in point I have seen a scrap piece of 3" RMC fall from a guys lift, hit the 3/4 EMT straped to the wall (using one holes with a toggle bolt below the conduit), and bend the strap into submission, but the toggle bolt held way.In response, I say that the same 3" pipe falling on the 3/4" EMT, but with the hole up, would have not bent the 1-hole at all.

[480sparky]

.....but case in point I have seen a scrap piece of 3" RMC fall from a guys lift, hit the 3/4 EMT straped to the wall ......

Yep... folks dropping scrap 3" RMC off lifts happens every day all over the country. It's an epidemic that will result in us being forbidden to cut 3" RMC.......:grin:

[Mr. Wizard]

In response, I say that the same 3" pipe falling on the 3/4" EMT, but with the hole up, would have not bent the 1-hole at all.

But, it seems the downward force of the 3" would deform the strap to actually open and release the conduit if the screw were on top. Or am I just thinking too deep about this :-?

[Mr. Wizard]

Yep... folks dropping scrap 3" RMC off lifts happens every day all over the country. It's an epidemic that will result in us being forbidden to cut 3" RMC.......:grin:

All RMC must be tied off if cutting above 6' :D

[daleuger]

All RMC must be tied off if cutting above 6' :D

HA! Just dropping a piece from the vise to your foot would be bad enough if you didn't have steel toes. And they'll have a few smashed toes so we'll have to tie it ALL off and they'll crack down harder on you wearing the right boots too.

[electricalperson]

i would of reamed that guy a new one for letting a piece of pipe fall off of the lift. he could of killed someone

[LarryFine]

But, it seems the downward force of the 3" would deform the strap to actually open and release the conduit if the screw were on top.
I'd say if it hit that hard, it won't make any difference which way the strap is oriented.

I never see straps bent open, just bent away from the wall, or at the screw hole itself.

[Fulthrotl]

I'd say if it hit that hard, it won't make any difference which way the strap is oriented.

I never see straps bent open, just bent away from the wall, or at the screw hole itself.

thank y'all for the poll...... it's like 15% up, 40% down... and i gotta run
300' of emt down a wall in the morning.... so i'll do it the same way....
40% one way, 15% the other way... and i'll leave the remaining 45%
off entirely......:D:D

thanks for the help.... it simplified things a lot for me.

[ActionDave]

Fact- the hole mounted below the conduit creates a hinge point that doesn't exist when mounted above. No need to worry about a strap bent away from the wall when the fastener is on top because it don't happen.

[Buck Parrish]

Fact- the hole mounted below the conduit creates a hinge point that doesn't exist when mounted above. No need to worry about a strap bent away from the wall when the fastener is on top because it don't happen.

Your right Dave . An engineer would say the same thing. If the conduit starts to fall from above the strap. The conduit will have leverage (being a way from the wall) Where as if the straps screw was above the conduit it could only go straight down. And it would be hard to pull out at a 90 degree angle.

[daleuger]

Man if this keeps up I'm liable to start hanging struts for everything even if it's one piddly little 3/4.......or even more drastically finding another line of work. :D

[steelersman]

Fact- the hole mounted below the conduit creates a hinge point that doesn't exist when mounted above. No need to worry about a strap bent away from the wall when the fastener is on top because it don't happen.
alright Dave! Another guy with commonsense! :)

[electricalperson]

Fact- the hole mounted below the conduit creates a hinge point that doesn't exist when mounted above. No need to worry about a strap bent away from the wall when the fastener is on top because it don't happen.

how will it bend off the wall? what are you putting inside the conduit? lead?

give me a break if people are worried about clips bending why not just install more.

i dont care if an engineer or whatever says that im going to still do it the way i always have.

[iwire]

alright Dave! Another guy with commonsense! :)

I am still waiting for those facts I asked about. :D

If you can prove that one way is always better then the other way with facts I will change my opinion of your opinions.

[steelersman]

how will it bend off the wall? what are you putting inside the conduit? lead?

from stuff hitting hit or falling on it, or from people stepping on it like it's part of a rock wall. (I've actually done this, so Weasel must be right)

give me a break if people are worried about clips bending why not just install more.

Maybe they don't want to needlessly use more when they could just mount them hole topside and meet code minimum.

i dont care if an engineer or whatever says that im going to still do it the way i always have.

That's fine with me. I would have the same attitude as well if I wasn't recently "enlightened" by Karl's information.

[jumper]

I am still waiting for those facts I asked about. :D

The fact is that you are correct; I ran this question by a physicist and he said that shear factor, weight, gravity, materiel specs, buiding conditions and a host of of other factors made this question unanswerable as it is presented. He said " Just do it to code and get the heck out of my office if you are going to ask me silly questions." I guess that answers it for me.

[steelersman]

The fact is that you are correct;


so he is correct because some "physicist" told you that it is untestable? Ha ha ha ha. Come off it already. :)

[jumper]

The fact is that you are correct; I ran this question by a physicist and he said that shear factor, weight, gravity, materiel specs, buiding conditions and a host of of other factors made this question unanswerable as it is presented. He said " Just do it to code and get the heck out of my office if you are going to ask me silly questions." I guess that answers it for me.

so he is correct because some "physicist" told you that it is untestable? Ha ha ha ha. Come off it already. :)

The phyicist did not say it was untestable; he said it was unanswerable as presented. Diifferent conditions would apply at different times and that the engineers who tested for these conditions were probably correct and that the fact that the NEC does not address his issue would imply that it is TOTALLY IRREVALANT. The straps are rated for installation in either position, so IWIRE is correct! It is solely a matter of opinion regarding the position. If you want to argue this further, bring on your numbers! I miss physics and calculus, so I would gladly spar numbers.

[steelersman]

If you want to argue this further, bring on your numbers! I miss physics and calculus, so I would gladly spar numbers.

There are no numbers for this. up or down, either way is fine. But Karl still brought up the best point of this thread IMO, that when mounted topside or up that it is less likely to bend outward or back. And that makes perfect sense to me and I don't need a study to show me any numbers for this. My whole "beef" is with the guys that think that down or bottomside is best. The crowd that says: either or, is fine in my book.

[jumper]

There are no numbers for this up or down, either way is fine.The crowd that says: either or, is fine in my book.

I have no problem with this. :D Those who disagree need to state numbers. So as IWire said ,it is basically opinions.

[NolaTigaBait]

how can there possibly be 13 pages about this?

[SEO]

No code reference to quote and everybody has an opinion.:smile:

[steelersman]

No code reference to quote and everybody has an opinion.:smile:
You know the saying....that being said we all have them. :)

[wirebender]

And they all stink.:D

[byourdesky]

So after reading Karl H's theory of why the hole up is the best way to do it and everyone that is of the thinking that hole down is just fine.......not one of you has ever seen an old run of conduit with the hole on the bottom pull off the wall :-? I know i have and i've only been at this for 4 years....never seen a hole up install falling off the wall though 8-)

[steelersman]

So after reading Karl H's theory of why the hole up is the best way to do it and everyone that is of the thinking that hole down is just fine.......not one of you has ever seen an old run of conduit with the hole on the bottom pull off the wall :-? I know i have and i've only been at this for 4 years....never seen a hole up install falling off the wall though 8-)
another poster with common sense! Kudos to you byourdesky! :)

[daleuger]

So after reading Karl H's theory of why the hole up is the best way to do it and everyone that is of the thinking that hole down is just fine.......not one of you has ever seen an old run of conduit with the hole on the bottom pull off the wall :-? I know i have and i've only been at this for 4 years....never seen a hole up install falling off the wall though 8-)

The hole up theory does make sense when you think about it, but in my defense I haven't seen a whole lot of whole up installs. I've only been at it coming on 5 though.

[bradleyelectric]

another poster with common sense! Kudos to you byourdesky! :)

I really want to have common sence, but I just can't bring myself to do it wrong.

[steelersman]

I really want to have common sence, but I just can't bring myself to do it wrong.
well for starters, it helps to be able to spell......:)

[bradleyelectric]

well for starters, it helps to be able to spell......:)

ah if I only had a brain.

[daleuger]

Just me or is this getting to be a dead horse?

[bradleyelectric]

it was dead at least 10 pages ago.

[jumper]

well for starters, it helps to be able to spell......:)

It also helps to be able to do advanced math if one is asserting a a position regarding this question. Is it opinion or fact that you base your assertions on?

[jumper]

it was dead at least 10 pages ago.

yeah, but I ain't voted yet.:smile:

[steelersman]

It also helps to be able to do advanced math if one is asserting a a position regarding this question. Is it opinion or fact that you base your assertions on?
I can simply assert common sense and all is well. Heavy weight applied to pipe with strap on bottom bends strap. Same heavy weight applied to same pipe with strap topside and strap doesn't bend. No problem. Are you suggesting that I can't do advanced math? Again I assert that I don't need to for this. Let's not complicate it with fuzzy math ok? :)

[bradleyelectric]

what if some kids come by and beat on the bottom of the pipe? Commons scense says it would bend the band up and since the band is ancored from the top and the screw isn't under the pipe to hold it up. It could very well fall on the kid behind the 1 that was beating on pipes head killing him or her. I just can't let that happen.

[nakulak]

The phyicist did not say it was untestable; he said it was unanswerable as presented. Diifferent conditions would apply at different times and that the engineers who tested for these conditions were probably correct and that the fact that the NEC does not address his issue would imply that it is TOTALLY IRREVALANT. The straps are rated for installation in either position, so IWIRE is correct! It is solely a matter of opinion regarding the position. If you want to argue this further, bring on your numbers! I miss physics and calculus, so I would gladly spar numbers.

the notion that calculus would be required to calculate the simple mechanics or dynamics of this problem, whether including the deformable portion or not, is a little over the top imo. I am of the opinion that Karl is correct, but I also realize that the problem (in terms of its finite technical description) has yet to be adequately described. For example, consider the following widely varying parameters:
1) pipe size (I'm sure this conversation was mostly about 1/2 or 3/4 ?)
2) anchor type
3) screw type and size
4) washer used or not used (a critical issue for lower density substrates)
5) substrate (critically important, and probably overriding factor)
6) the strap itself (cheap metal strap or rigid strap - again a vital factor)
While the conversation has rambled through all these pages, everyone posting may have widely different trade practices as to what they had envisioned regarding the above, and because the physics of the problem was not precisely identified, the conversations may have been about completely different installations (with the relative strengths of the differing materials varying to such a wide degree).

- just my 2 cents

[LarryFine]

ah if I only had a brain.
"A heart . . . "

"De noive! . . . "

[byourdesky]

another poster with common sense! Kudos to you byourdesky! :)

Thank you steelersman :D....by the way congrats on the super bowl but i wish it had been the chargers instead :D .......uh-oh i just started something else

[jumper]

I Are you suggesting that I can't do advanced math? Let's not complicate it with fuzzy math ok? :)

No, I am not sugguesting that you can not do advanced math, I an stating that your assertions are a opinion and not a fact. Show numbers or admit IWIRE is right.

[jumper]

the notion that calculus would be required to calculate the simple mechanics or dynamics of this problem, whether including the deformable portion or not, is a little over the top imo. I am of the opinion that Karl is correct, but I also realize that the problem (in terms of its finite technical description) has yet to be adequately described. For example, consider the following widely varying parameters:
1) pipe size (I'm sure this conversation was mostly about 1/2 or 3/4 ?)
2) anchor type
3) screw type and size
4) washer used or not used (a critical issue for lower density substrates)
5) substrate (critically important, and probably overriding factor)
6) the strap itself (cheap metal strap or rigid strap - again a vital factor)
While the conversation has rambled through all these pages, everyone posting may have widely different trade practices as to what they had envisioned regarding the above, and because the physics of the problem was not precisely identified, the conversations may have been about completely different installations (with the relative strengths of the differing materials varying to such a wide degree).

- just my 2 cents

I agree, calculus in this install probably has no bearing, as you state different variables come up with different answers. The physics were not defined and I agree with you.

[nysparky]

if pipe strap is underneath the pipe and loosens up for some reason,the pipe won't fall. down.....

[Doug S.]

So I thought I'd help Iwire get his prediction... (See post #2) (346 to go...)

I voted to alternate. =)

I also think there is a time and place for either and most of the time it doesn't freak'n matter.

So since I refuse the read most of the last 15 pages, did some one bring up the white-book yet? Or specific listing info? :wink:

AND since I'm typing about straps I'd like to mentioned I HATE the flimsy straps that one can often find at the big-box stores. Give me my 1/8" thick OZG straps!!! Anchored correctly the should outlast the raceway!

My 2¢
Doug S.

[LarryFine]

if pipe strap is underneath the pipe and loosens up for some reason,the pipe won't fall. down.....I'll take not loosening over tolerating loosening any time. :cool:


If the strap is lying back, haven't we lost "secured" and only have "supported" now?

[ashtrak]

Like I was told when when I was a first year apprectice and asked the up or down question!

"Pipe can't fall up, stupid apprentice boy"
What a great mentor.What a great time in my life, ha,ha,....

[ohm]

So I thought I'd help Iwire get his prediction... (See post #2) (346 to go...)

I voted to alternate. =)

I also think there is a time and place for either and most of the time it doesn't freak'n matter.

So since I refuse the read most of the last 15 pages, did some one bring up the white-book yet? Or specific listing info? :wink:

AND since I'm typing about straps I'd like to mentioned I HATE the flimsy straps that one can often find at the big-box stores. Give me my 1/8" thick OZG straps!!! Anchored correctly the should outlast the raceway!

My 2¢
Doug S.

I thought the same thing Doug.

2007 White Book: DWMU The mounting orientation, if restricted, shall be marked on the carton or installation instructions.

I've poured over the various manufacturers and haven't found anything restrictive.

The American Electrician has nothing.

None of the textbooks I've used teaching at a community college have nothing on the subject.

Seems this thread has all the experts on the subject.

[LarryFine]

Seems this thread has all the experts on the subject.Isn't that why you're here? :wink:

[K8MHZ]

I dug around a bit and found that in order to be UL listed for electrical conduit support any restriction on installation orientation must be printed on the package or in some form of nomenclature in the package.

I did find a restriction for using one hole straps on CPVC that specified that the tab be installed up on horizontal runs.

What I did not find was how they were tested. Details of UL listings seem to only be available on a pay as you download basis.

[Karl H]

what if some kids come by and beat on the bottom of the pipe? Commons scense says it would bend the band up and since the band is ancored from the top and the screw isn't under the pipe to hold it up. It could very well fall on the kid behind the 1 that was beating on pipes head killing him or her. I just can't let that happen.

If you are running "large" pipe, that contains heavy conductors
that, if it were to fall,it would break the couplings, sever the wires,
and potentially put someones life in jeopardy. Then, (1) you didn't
support your conduit per the NEC. (2) You probably shouldn't be using
one-hole straps as a means to support the conduit.

Granted, Im old and a little out of touch with the fads today.
I just don't think it's the new rage for children to run around pushing up on
conduit runs. Please, remember I'm old and probably very misinformed.:smile:

[Karl H]

I'll take not loosening over tolerating loosening any time. :cool:


If the strap is lying back, haven't we lost "secured" and only have "supported" now?

Very good point. 358.30 (A)(B). 2008NEC

[steelersman]

If you are running "large" pipe, that contains heavy conductors
that, if it were to fall,it would break the couplings, sever the wires,
and potentially put someones life in jeopardy. Then, (1) you didn't
support your conduit per the NEC. (2) You probably shouldn't be using
one-hole straps as a means to support the conduit.

Granted, Im old and a little out of touch with the fads today.
I just don't think it's the new rage for children to run around pushing up on
conduit runs. Please, remember I'm old and probably very misinformed.:smile:


Nope. Your not misinformed. You are thinking clearly and using common sense.

[ohm]

Isn't that why you're here? :wink:

Actually Larry, I've probably run less "pipe" than anyone here. The only saddle I'm comfortable with is on a horse.

This thread may sound silly but can you imagine how useful it may become if an inspector told you that you had to re-orient a few thousand straps?

I can learn something from yesterdays comic strip!

K8MHZ's find on CPVC sounds interesting. Does tab up mean hole up? If it's part of a PVC UL listing the physics would would probably apply to all types of horizontal conduit. I may have to cast another ballot!

[480sparky]

..........This thread may sound silly but can you imagine how useful it may become if an inspector told you that you had to re-orient a few thousand straps?

I'd ask the inspector for a Code reference.


..........K8MHZ's find on CPVC sounds interesting. Does tab up mean hole up? If it's part of a PVC UL listing the physics would would probably apply to all types of horizontal conduit. I may have to cast another ballot!

I thought CPVC was for plumbers.

[ohm]

I'd ask the inspector for a Code reference.


I thought CPVC was for plumbers.

Not the inspector I met in TN! They do their own thing, and get away with it!

I thought CPVC was plumber stuff too. But maybe they're onto something.

[LarryFine]

I may have to cast another ballot!
Myagi have hope for you! :D

[480sparky]

Not the inspector I met in TN! They do their own thing, and get away with it!......

Maybe it's time someone steps up to the plate and takes one for the team.

[K8MHZ]

Not the inspector I met in TN! They do their own thing, and get away with it!

I thought CPVC was plumber stuff too. But maybe they're onto something.

What about garden hose? I know a tin knocker that made a 30 amp 240 volt extension cord out of some scrap THHN and a hose and is proud of it.

Gotta admit, it's lasted over 4 years in his shop now. I wonder how long a chinese made cord would have lasted, UL listed or not?

[LarryFine]

I wonder how long a chinese made cord would have lasted, UL listed or not?How Long is a Chinese name.

[ohm]

Myagi have hope for you! :D

As in Kensuke Miyagi?

[LarryFine]

As in Kensuke Miyagi?I was thinking The Karate Kid.

[K8MHZ]

How Long is a Chinese name.

How Long is Tu Long's brother.

[LarryFine]

How Long is Tu Long's brother.
Let's not forget their sister, So Long. 8-)

[ohm]

I was thinking The Karate Kid.

May the electro motive force be with you.

[480sparky]

May the electro motive force be with you.

That's Star Wars.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Fun%20Stuff/kkid.gif
You must mean Wax On, Wax Off.

[ohm]

That's Star Wars.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Fun%20Stuff/kkid.gif
You must mean Wax On, Wax Off.

Hyde ho big guy!

[480sparky]

Hyde ho big guy!

Wilson!?!?
http://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo294/Robbarino/television/Home_Improvement1.jpg

[ohm]

Wilson!?!?
http://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo294/Robbarino/television/Home_Improvement1.jpg

Happy trails to you

[steelersman]

How Long is Tu Long's brother.
that sounds dirty. hopefully you don't know the answer.

[roger]

Considering the last 10 posts in this thread, I think all constructive information has been posted, so as in every old life, the end must come and it has here. :smile:

Thread closed.

Roger