What a waste [Archive] - Mike Holt's Forum

electricmanscott

03-07-2009, 04:53 PM

Rewire

03-07-2009, 04:56 PM

Not to mention romex is now subject to physical damage and shoulkd be sleeved

iwire

03-07-2009, 04:59 PM

Not to mention romex is now subject to physical damage and shoulkd be sleeved

I would say that is very debatable.

electricmanscott

03-07-2009, 05:11 PM

I would say that is very debatable.

Debatable, but I wouldn't do it. 8-)

K8MHZ

03-07-2009, 05:12 PM

It may be a 'motor load' thing that some inspectors are hung up on.

I have had to run dedicated circuits to each device as required by the inspector. I know that would be subject to debate, but it wasn't a big deal to comply with his request so we just did it.

peter d

03-07-2009, 05:19 PM

peter d

03-07-2009, 05:21 PM

I have had to run dedicated circuits to each device as required by the inspector. I know that would be subject to debate, but it wasn't a big deal to comply with his request so we just did it.

The "electrician" who did this could have run a 12/3 to a single box and spilt wired a duplex receptacle if he was so bent on providing two dedicated circuits.

billdozier

03-07-2009, 05:21 PM

well when the id 10t inspectors require two seperate ckts with thier own neutrals what else can you do. Heck the fridge has to have its own ckt as well cant tap off sa ckt. So whos wasting the money?

peter d

03-07-2009, 05:24 PM

well when the id 10t inspectors require two seperate ckts with thier own neutrals what else can you do.

An inspector who requires separate neutrals is committing gross violation of his authority and should be challenged.

Heck the fridge has to have its own ckt as well cant tap off sa ckt.

Wrong.

electricmanscott

03-07-2009, 05:25 PM

well when the id 10t inspectors require two seperate ckts with thier own neutrals what else can you do. Heck the fridge has to have its own ckt as well cant tap off sa ckt. So whos wasting the money?

I guess whoever does the installation is wasting the money.

LarryFine

03-07-2009, 05:26 PM

well when the id 10t inspectors require two seperate ckts with thier own neutrals what else can you do. Heck the fridge has to have its own ckt as well cant tap off sa ckt. So whos wasting the money?Depends:

If the locality has legally adopted these weird requirements, then it's the AHJ.

If they have not, then it's the contractor who kowtows to inspectors' whims.

Rewire

03-07-2009, 05:29 PM

I would say that is very debatable.
10 to 12 inches of wire in a cabinet under a sink used for storage I would say their is a high likelyhood of this wire being subjected to pysical damage and the code doesn't make allowances for probabilities so any chance of physical damage should be taken into account.

growler

03-07-2009, 05:31 PM

Not my work. I was there to finish what the other guy started. He probably went bankrupt. ;)

It is more important than ever to be smart when using materials and labor. This is just plain stupid.

You are there to finish his work and you don't know what happened to him? :-?

augie47

03-07-2009, 05:40 PM

When I first started in the trade, I would often question "why" someone did that.
Fast Forward and I find myself as a contractor installing a 100 amp panel per the customer's request after a number of questions about loads, future plans, etc.
The following week I find myself adding a 2nd panel when the customer decided to purchase additional equipment.
The insitial job was per customer specs and the end was to his desire and met Code. He was happy and paid well.
I'm sure some electrican will walk in that room one day and ask "what dummy" put two panels here instead of one adequate panel.
This scenerio has repeated itself many times over the years.
The wisdom of the electrican might be in question, but we should not judge not knwowing the facts.
"are you SURE you are not going to have a diswasher" :D

peter d

03-07-2009, 05:44 PM

The wisdom of the electrican might be in question, but we should not judge not knwowing the facts.

This situation can be judged fair and square. If the electrician absolutely, positively wanted to provide 2-20 amp dedicated under the sink, which is fine and his prerogative, the smarter way to achieve this is with one 12/3 cable and a single box with a split wired duplex receptacle. Less time, less material, less effort.

Mule

03-07-2009, 05:51 PM

Un-believeable how judgemental we get.....Those outlets will be there when then cows come homes,......maybe get hooked by something, but in the corner I doubt it. Just put a barrier of some sort to protect the romex, and go on......jeez :rolleyes: and I cant believe some one complains because there are individual circuits.....

Sounds like a bunch of baptist women in a hair salon...................... :)

480sparky

03-07-2009, 05:59 PM

Anyone ever figured that maybe this is the way the owner wanted it to be?

Keep in mind, the NEC is a minimum, not a mandate. If the HO wanted separate, dedicated circuits for the disposal and the dishwasher, then all he's gotta do is fork over the dough.

Shoot, I'm bidding a home right now with two lovely specs: All metal boxes and no 15a circuits. I love it!

You guys keep wiring dwellings fast and cheap..... I've got bigger fish to fry.

electricmanscott

03-07-2009, 06:09 PM

The wisdom of the electrican might be in question, but we should not judge not knwowing the facts.
"are you SURE you are not going to have a diswasher" :D

Nothing being judged here. The facts are the facts.

electricmanscott

03-07-2009, 06:11 PM

You are there to finish his work and you don't know what happened to him? :-?

Gotta do what ya gotta do. And I did.

nakulak

03-07-2009, 06:21 PM

I like the electrical, not too keen on the plumbing though.

PCN

03-07-2009, 06:26 PM

This situation can be judged fair and square. If the electrician absolutely, positively wanted to provide 2-20 amp dedicated under the sink, which is fine and his prerogative, the smarter way to achieve this is with one 12/3 cable and a single box with a split wired duplex receptacle. Less time, less material, less effort.

Maybe this was a T&M job and he needed to fill the rest of his day.
Less time, less material, less $$$
Maybe the second receptacle was a change order?

Ed Carr

03-07-2009, 06:31 PM

Are those 240v recepts?

Ed

Dennis Alwon

03-07-2009, 06:32 PM

Are those 240v recepts?

Ed

Hard to tell from the picture but I would guess they are 20 amp 125V recep. BTW- I have never seen a dw come with a 20 amp cord & plug.

LarryFine

03-07-2009, 06:37 PM

Hard to tell from the picture but I would guess they are 20 amp 125V recep. They are. The neutral is the T-slot, on the right when the ground is up.
BTW- I have never seen a dw come with a 20 amp cord & plug.Single receptacle on a circuit must match the circuit rating.

Dennis Alwon

03-07-2009, 06:41 PM

Single receptacle on a circuit must match the circuit rating.

Right but just use a duplex

LarryFine

03-07-2009, 06:45 PM

Right but just use a duplexYes, that's still a single receptacle per circuit. I don't know if a 3-wire circuit is considered a single circuit in this context.

I would have to say it's two circuits, especially if we want to argue the compliance of such a circuit for two single loads.

Dennis Alwon

03-07-2009, 06:46 PM

Yes, that's still a single receptacle per circuit. I don't know if a 3-wire circuit is considered a single circuit in this context.
:-? A duplex is not a single receptacle.

I meant a duplex for each unit

LarryFine

03-07-2009, 06:50 PM

:-? A duplex is not a single receptacle.No, it's two single receptacles.

I meant a duplex for each unit
That would be two duplexes; why two? That's still a waste for two dedicated-circuit loads.

I agree with the others who say a single duplex with a 3-wire circuit is the way to go.

The question here is whether a split duplex would need to be a 20a receptacle; I say yes.

Dennis Alwon

03-07-2009, 07:00 PM

No, it's two single receptacles.

That would be two duplexes; why two? That's still a waste for two dedicated-circuit loads.

I agree with the others who say a single duplex with a 3-wire circuit is the way to go.

The question here is whether a split duplex would need to be a 20a receptacle; I say yes.

Well I would never wire a disposal with a cord and plug anyway. I would straight wire that and unless the dw comes with a cord and plug it would get straight wired also. Both would have a switch as the disconnect.

I was just suggesting that if you are going to have 2 boxes as the picture shows then I would use 2 duplex recep. 15 amp not 20 amp.

LarryFine

03-07-2009, 07:15 PM

I was just suggesting that if you are going to have 2 boxes as the picture shows then I would use 2 duplex recep. 15 amp not 20 amp.
Regardless of the receptacles chosen, a single 4"sq box would have sufficed.

This installation suggests someone more familiar with commercial wiring than residential.

ohm

03-07-2009, 07:18 PM

I can say without hesitation that was installed by an ignoramus. Why such harsh words you ask. Because it's exactly as Scott said - in this day and age especially using materials and time efficiently is the name of the game. This installer did neither.

I would have used less boxes, receptacles and wire but more staples.

BTW the plumber should have installed the disposer & DW drain and supply valve to the DW, or are they out of sight?

tonyou812

03-07-2009, 07:31 PM

Receptacles for dishwasher and disposal. Two twenty amp circuits. One probably would have been fine.

A 14/3 run to one box with a split duplex would have been ideal. Waste of 12/2, box, receptacle, cover and labor.

Not my work. I was there to finish what the other guy started. He probably went bankrupt. ;)

It is more important than ever to be smart when using materials and labor. This is just plain stupid.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_ZS_6ncMCnQQ/SbLbh6la15I/AAAAAAAAAJw/ViATLWbE8oU/s640/DWDISP.jpg

I guess your a code minimum guy? And forget about future add on's with one of your homes. Havent you ever had to add a insta hot or some other appliance and you find a 14/2 feeding a 10.5 amp dishwasher and an 8 amp. Plus last time I checked a roll of 14/3 cost more than a roll of 12/2. .........whhhhhhhyyyy do so many guys do just the min????????????????? How much more does the other 12/2 really cost you? Plus its not really a factor if you are charging for the 12/2's.

tonyou812

03-07-2009, 07:32 PM

I guess your a code minimum guy? And forget about future add on's with one of your homes. Havent you ever had to add a insta hot or some other appliance and you find a 14/2 feeding a 10.5 amp dishwasher and an 8 amp. Plus last time I checked a roll of 14/3 cost more than a roll of 12/2. .........whhhhhhhyyyy do so many guys do just the min????????????????? How much more does the other 12/2 really cost you? Plus its not really a factor if you are charging for the 12/2's.

Oh and I personally think the exposed romex and 1900's look like poop anyway. Come on dude your a pro cut that box in.........Can someone say lazy....

oopps I ment to edit not quote.

Pierre C Belarge

03-07-2009, 07:40 PM

tonyou812

03-07-2009, 07:48 PM

Since we do not know the story, we really should not judge what was installed, as has been mentioned, he may have been directed to install these receptacles as seen.

In regards to the "subject to physical damage", that as written is purely subjective and alway up to the particular inspector of record.
I myself do not see much chance of damage occuring in that corner. I would like to see a couple of staples.

Oh I know, Im just talking shop. And I understand its under the sink and all and who cares , but for me it doesnt take that much longer to do it nice. And alot of people appreciate and notice when something is done better. Even if I had to surface mount it I would stub it through a pipe. God knows Ive failed for it not being in a sleeve.

Pierre C Belarge

03-07-2009, 07:54 PM

I am not saying that it would be bad to sleeve it or provide an alternative to the method installed, but code wise, it is not so bad, as we all know the code is the worst you one can install and still pass.

electricmanscott

03-07-2009, 08:18 PM

I guess your a code minimum guy? And forget about future add on's with one of your homes. Havent you ever had to add a insta hot or some other appliance and you find a 14/2 feeding a 10.5 amp dishwasher and an 8 amp. Plus last time I checked a roll of 14/3 cost more than a roll of 12/2. .........whhhhhhhyyyy do so many guys do just the min????????????????? How much more does the other 12/2 really cost you? Plus its not really a factor if you are charging for the 12/2's.

What does an insta hot have to do with anything. :confused: Wouldn't you run another circuit for it?

Maybe we should run a range receptacle in there. You just never know. :rolleyes:

For the job at hand two twenty amp circuits is a waste in my view. The customer paid for more than was necessary.

No need no get worked up about it.

electricmanscott

03-07-2009, 08:21 PM

Well I would never wire a disposal with a cord and plug anyway. I would straight wire that and unless the dw comes with a cord and plug it would get straight wired also. Both would have a switch as the disconnect.

.

In a case like this the cords have been installed on the appliances so there is no need to come back after they have been installed.

That's mostly the reason I cord and plug all the time. I do lots of kitchens and you never know who's coming when.

steelersman

03-07-2009, 08:25 PM

10 to 12 inches of wire in a cabinet under a sink used for storage I would say their is a high likelyhood of this wire being subjected to pysical damage and the code doesn't make allowances for probabilities so any chance of physical damage should be taken into account.
What about the 4 ott SE-U coming from the meter can into the house that isn't in a conduit or protected?

bradleyelectric

03-07-2009, 09:24 PM

What about the 4 ott SE-U coming from the meter can into the house that isn't in a conduit or protected?

It's not under the sink.

Volta

03-07-2009, 10:10 PM

I think 334.15(B) would be my only complaint. Seems that the NM is exposed, and passing through a floor. Cabinet bottom, perhaps, but the upper side of a horizontal surface likely to have objects stored or slid, it's a floor to me.

Sections 210.4(B) and 210.7(B) keep me from sharing neutrals and devices as much these days. No big deal here to have them both off if working on one, I suppose, but I just don't share like I used to.

I try to play well with others, though . . .:D

tonyou812

03-07-2009, 10:11 PM

What does an insta hot have to do with anything. :confused: Wouldn't you run another circuit for it?

Maybe we should run a range receptacle in there. You just never know. :rolleyes:

For the job at hand two twenty amp circuits is a waste in my view. The customer paid for more than was necessary.

No need no get worked up about it.
Who's getting worked up.....? were just talking shop dude. As far as running 14/2 to a kitchen appliance is sort of like running a 1/2" emt for a commercial or industrial application. Sure you can get your job done but what about future additions? Theres nothing wrong with that but ..... sort of on the "cheapo" side. Thats all im saying. How much more does the extra 12/2 cost in comparasin to your 14/3 ....?

480sparky

03-07-2009, 10:11 PM

It's not under the sink.

You don't run 4/0 under the sink for future loads? :grin:

LarryFine

03-07-2009, 10:34 PM

Havent you ever had to add a insta hot or some other appliance and you find a 14/2 feeding a 10.5 amp dishwasher and an 8 amp.That would be a stretch, but I wouldn't hesitate to place them both on a 12/2.

Plus last time I checked a roll of 14/3 cost more than a roll of 12/2.To be fair, you should compare a roll of 14/3 to two rolls of 12/2.

.........whhhhhhhyyyy do so many guys do just the min?????????????????On the other hand, how often does anyone foresee ever needing three 20a circuits under the sink?

How much more does the other 12/2 really cost you? Plus its not really a factor if you are charging for the 12/2's.If. We'd have to explain why two appliances require three circuits, unless you're selling them on the insta-hot now.

I still think two 20a circuits is plenty for the three, with whichever appliance has the greatest load on one circuit, and the other two on the second.

Fulthrotl

03-07-2009, 10:53 PM

This situation can be judged fair and square. If the electrician absolutely, positively wanted to provide 2-20 amp dedicated under the sink, which is fine and his prerogative, the smarter way to achieve this is with one 12/3 cable and a single box with a split wired duplex receptacle. Less time, less material, less effort.

and it was friday, and he ran short of 12/3, and didn't want to spend an
hour fetching more.....
i've ran out of a flavor of #12 thhn, and pulled #10 instead. shoot me.

if the difference between 80' of 12/3 and 160' of 12/2 is the difference
between success and failure for me, i've got way more problems than
being inefficient.

LarryFine

03-07-2009, 11:40 PM

and it was friday, and he ran short of 12/3, and didn't want to spend an
hour fetching more.....
i've ran out of a flavor of #12 thhn, and pulled #10 instead. shoot me.
Did you pull a #10 EGC, too? 8-)
if the difference between 80' of 12/3 and 160' of 12/2 is the difference
between success and failure for me, i've got way more problems than
being inefficient.
Of course, our criticisms presume freedom of choice.

peter d

03-08-2009, 12:11 AM

and it was friday, and he ran short of 12/3, and didn't want to spend an hour fetching more.....

Perhaps, but I doubt it. I've worked with more than a few electricians who are afraid or refuse to use multiwire branch circuits to make me suspect otherwise.

peter d

03-08-2009, 12:18 AM

How much more does the extra 12/2 cost in comparasin to your 14/3 ....?

How much does the extra labor cost to run and terminate two cables versus one is what I care about.

Furthermore, two runs of 12 or 14 versus one 3-wire cable is always more expensive. Using
current HD prices on romex: (http://contractorservices.homedepot.com/StoreProducts/BrowseCategory.aspx?cid=851606)

14/2 - $23.75 x2 = 47.50
14/3 - $39.98

12/2 - $36.20 x2 = 72.40
12/3 - $66.00

steelersman

03-08-2009, 12:43 AM

It's not under the sink.
right. your brilliant. much more chance for damage to occur to wires under a sink than on the exterior of a house. absolutely brilliant. :)

oh that's right, you're from MD. You get a pass.

steelersman

03-08-2009, 12:45 AM

Oakey

03-08-2009, 01:02 AM

I failed inspection for running a 14/3 to one split duplex rec under the sink. The inspector said "No more than 15 amps on a yoke", had to install 2 singles or no go.

bradleyelectric

03-08-2009, 08:18 AM

You don't run 4/0 under the sink for future loads? :grin:

The last time I did the inspector make me put it in rigid metal for physical protection and the plumber got mad because the HO wanted to know why my work under the sink was heavier duty than his. I had to stop.

bradleyelectric

03-08-2009, 08:23 AM

doesn't matter if they pass through a floor. romex wires pass through the floor all the time. how else do you wire a house? In free air? besides, the bottom of a cabinet isn't a floor.

Under the cabinet is a floor. Oh wait, steelers fan. You probably didn't know that. I believe the poster was assuming the panel was in a floor below the kitchen which makes it easy to drill through the floor to access the area and run the wires between floor joists running the wires towards the service panel. Maybe you should stick with pointing out spelling errors.

Dennis Alwon

03-08-2009, 08:44 AM

I failed inspection for running a 14/3 to one split duplex rec under the sink. The inspector said "No more than 15 amps on a yoke", had to install 2 singles or no go.

I have read many things inspectors make people do without anything to back it up. Please next time ask the inspector what the difference is between a duplex that is split and 2 single receptacles.

steelersman

03-08-2009, 09:56 AM

Under the cabinet is a floor. Oh wait, steelers fan. You probably didn't know that. I believe the poster was assuming the panel was in a floor below the kitchen which makes it easy to drill through the floor to access the area and run the wires between floor joists running the wires towards the service panel. Maybe you should stick with pointing out spelling errors.
Hmm. So you don't run any wires through the floor? Interesting. So you don't think that the wires go directly to the switch for the disposal? Not that it matters. I'm still wondering how to wire a house or anything for that matter without running any wires through a floor. Besides, where does it say in the code that this isn't allowed? You should stick to tractor pulls. :)

I'm glad you're not an inspector. I'd feel sorry for anyone having you inspect their work and trying to enforce your OWN codes. :)

nakulak

03-08-2009, 10:12 AM

I have read many things inspectors make people do without anything to back it up. Please next time ask the inspector what the difference is between a duplex that is split and 2 single receptacles.

It does suck when an inspector misinterprets the code. (Of course, it should be noted that I'm sure electricians benefit just as much from this as they are penalized for it - you just never hear about the other half of the time when the inspector missed something that should have been fixed, only the whining about the things that they caught that weren't right) After thinking about it, though, It occurred to me that if electricians were more proactive towards the inspectors becoming better trained, it would impart a whole new positive dynamic towards contractor/inspector relations. For instance, suppose you hooked up with a local head inspector who just happened to be a member of one of these national organizations like IAEI. So an inspector comes to the job and tells you some ridiculous thing to fix, which you know is wrong, instead of jumping up and down, you just shake your head like he just flunked a test, pull out a card from one of these other cats, and say, "hey, joe, this organization does a great job training inspectors, you might be able to really get ahead - give them a call and see what they have to offer. So and so at (some other county) is a chief inspecto and belongs to this org and he's a great guy. Oh, by the way, just as a favor, when you talk to him, do me a favor and talk with him about this (bs red tag you just gave me) and let me know what he says ?"

-just an idea ?
(fwiw, the inspectors in my neck of the woods are usually pretty good. Thing is, I always hit them with a list of questions when the first hit the job of anything they (or I) could possibly disagree on, so I don't get caught with my hand in the grinder. That in and of itself goes a long way to establishing a working relationship and no red stickers.)

LarryFine

03-08-2009, 10:30 AM

I failed inspection for running a 14/3 to one split duplex rec under the sink. The inspector said "No more than 15 amps on a yoke", had to install 2 singles or no go.And, of course, he showed you the NEC article that required that before you did it, right?

Pierre C Belarge

03-08-2009, 11:41 AM

Flex

03-08-2009, 12:01 PM

iaov

03-08-2009, 01:23 PM

This has got to be one of the sillier threads I've ever read here. No one knows the history of this install. These circuits may have been installed at completely different times! And who knows what the instructions may have been. A dozen electricians have a dozen ideas on how to do something!Huh!! The only thing I can say for sure is it appears to be a neat,safe, (I don't think the Romex is in harms way)user friendly install.

tonyou812

03-08-2009, 01:25 PM

That would be a stretch, but I wouldn't hesitate to place them both on a 12/2.

To be fair, you should compare a roll of 14/3 to two rolls of 12/2.

On the other hand, how often does anyone foresee ever needing three 20a circuits under the sink?

If. We'd have to explain why two appliances require three circuits, unless you're selling them on the insta-hot now.

I still think two 20a circuits is plenty for the three, with whichever appliance has the greatest load on one circuit, and the other two on the second.

who said anything about three 20's. The OP stated "what a waste you could have run 14/3 for both. I personally dont run 14 for kitchen stuff. In my opinion that is doing code minumum. Sure you can probably get both appliances to work on 14 wire but that doesnt leave much room for any future stuff.

And like I said If your the kind of person that will go through the trouble of snaking in a wire (and for what its worth I am going under the assumption that it is a pita) why not leave some room for future stuff? ....Come on dude if 50 bucks is going to break your profit margin.............lol..and beileve me the customers are paying for the 12 wire, its not comming out of my pocket...ahhhh forget it who cares anyway. I know what works for me. I always work under the assumption that the customer will use me again at a later date.

I think it basically boils down to "are you a code minimum guy". and Im pretty sure there was a thread already for this a few weeks ago.

And you see this not only in electrical work but in all the trades.

tonyou812

03-08-2009, 01:27 PM

I failed inspection for running a 14/3 to one split duplex rec under the sink. The inspector said "No more than 15 amps on a yoke", had to install 2 singles or no go.

we must have had the same inspector. Ive failed for this too and passed in other municipalities. Got love it though.

George Stolz

03-08-2009, 01:41 PM

I can say without hesitation that was installed by an ignoramus.
I guess I am an ignoramus. I usually configure my circuitry under the sink the same way.

How much does the extra labor cost to run and terminate two cables versus one is what I care about.
If I own two stud reelers, then the extra labor cost is minimal.

Furthermore, two runs of 12 or 14 versus one 3-wire cable is always more expensive. Using
current HD prices on romex: (http://contractorservices.homedepot.com/StoreProducts/BrowseCategory.aspx?cid=851606)

14/2 - $23.75 x2 = 47.50
14/3 - $39.98

12/2 - $36.20 x2 = 72.40
12/3 - $66.00
Goodness gracious! The cost to run two 12/2 cables instead of a 12/3 is $6.40 a roll?!? How will I be able to overcome such a drastic oversight? :D

Much ado over nothing. Aside from the protection issues, there isn't a problem in the picture, IMO.

tonyou812

03-08-2009, 01:51 PM

Don't get me wrong fellas, I dont make it a habit of oversizing everything in a home but in this particular situation I dont see it as a waste. Maybe its the chef in me or all the past experiences in resi, but to me it makes perfect sense.

you know I had a buddy once that wired two side by side baths, in this very large home (that was to be for two "teenage" girls) on one 20 amp circuit. And I remember telling him (at the time I was an apprentice) do you think that is a good idea? (The panel was on the opposite side of the home so snaking one in later was going to be a real pain in the butt.)

Two high school girls getting ready can easily be using two blow dryers at the same time or curling irons or what ever else girls. And needless to say a few weeks after the project was done my boss got a call from the HO that the breaker for the GFCI's kept tripping. My boss explained to him the code and why its happening and that the breaker was doing its job and yadda yadda yadda, but the HO really didnt give a crap as to why he just wanted his daughters to stop complaining about it. And the HO had a lot and I mean a lot of money so the price for the extra circuit really wouldn't have been an issue.

So a few years went by and I happened to drive by the home and saw another EC van in the driveway installing what seemed to be miles of landscape lighting. And I kind of chuckled that my old boss wasn't the guy doing it.

You know guys sometimes it doesn't take much for people to get turned off to you or your company.
It probably wasn't just the bathrooms that turned him off to my boss but I'm sure it didnt help. I mean what would you think if you just spent about 100,000 grand for electrical work and your breaker keeps tripping....?

Sometimes you cant just look at a job like a cookie cutter. Some jobs take a little foresight. And this in my opinion is what separates the decent companies from the great ones.

Oh and for what its worth this isn't a made up story like some people in here like to do to suit the topic or so they can make their point.

steelersman

03-08-2009, 01:57 PM

Oh and for what its worth this isnt a made up story like some people in here like to do to suit the topic or so they can make their point.

Hahaha. That's funny. I've often thought the same thing. :)

tonyou812

03-08-2009, 01:59 PM

Hahaha. That's funny. I've often thought the same thing. :)
Im sure some of you can guess as to who I mean.....

steelersman

03-08-2009, 02:00 PM

"334.15
(B)Protection from Physical Damage.
...Where passing through a floor, the cable shall be enclosed in rigid metal conducit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC rigid nonmetallic conduit, or other approved means extending at least (6 in.) above the floor."

When one drills through plates and installs cables "within" the walls, that is not coming up through a floor.
If one is to install the cable through the floor, such as an area where the dishwasher may be located or under a sink, then following 334.15(B) will be required.
I would take that to mean through a floor in the middle of a room or where it's exposed. Around here the inspectors don't make us sleeve the romex coming up through the floor directly under the dishwasher. And how would you sleeve it in rigid above 6 inches through the floor if it's directly under the dishwasher? You wouldn't be able to.

now for island plugs then yes we sleeve them inside the cabinet.

tonyou812

03-08-2009, 02:06 PM

Has anyone mentioned that there are no staples or straps on the romex?

peter d

03-08-2009, 02:31 PM

I guess I am an ignoramus. I usually configure my circuitry under the sink the same way.

I think you missed my point. This would have been a perfect place to use a MWBC. Or perhaps you didn't miss my point. Are you saying you don't take advantage of using MWBC's? :-? At any rate, perhaps "ignoramus" was too strong, but I can't for the life of me understand the logic behind the setup in Scott's picture. And I agree with Scott that 2-20 amp circuits is a waste. Just my opinion though. ;)

Goodness gracious! The cost to run two 12/2 cables instead of a 12/3 is $6.40 a roll?!? How will I be able to overcome such a drastic oversight? :D

You say you're about to go into business, no? $6.40 here, $5 there...it all starts adding up, especially when you're the one now paying the bill for the material. ;)

tonyou812

03-08-2009, 02:46 PM

I think you missed my point. This would have been a perfect place to use a MWBC. Or perhaps you didn't miss my point. Are you saying you don't take advantage of using MWBC's? :-? At any rate, perhaps "ignoramus" was too strong, but I can't for the life of me understand the logic behind the setup in Scott's picture. And I agree with Scott that 2-20 amp circuits is a waste. Just my opinion though. ;)

customer. you would be very surprised as to what many people will find to expensive. And when it comes to kitchen equipment, using 14/2 is a JV (junior varsity) move even if it saves you a few bucks.
Besides all that, we all going on the "gumption that we are using the same price for two different installs. And who ever assumed that....You know what the real funny thing is here? we have no info on what is getting connected to these outlets but we are all so sure that its over kill.
Peter I dont know about you but I like to make it a habit to have the customer pay for what is being installed. If i install 2 12/2's, guess what? thats what the HO is paying for.That being said I also dont always work with the thought of how can I do this as cheaply as possible for the ?

tonyou812

03-08-2009, 02:47 PM

im not really sure what happend to my post (above) it got all chopped up. ...weird

peter d

03-08-2009, 02:59 PM

Peter I dont know about you but I like to make it a habit to have the customer pay for what is being installed.

It makes no difference to me how many 20 amp circuits you want to run under the sink. Heck, if you're getting paid to run 5 circuits to under the sink, great! Do I think it's a waste? Yes, I agree with Scott on that. But if running 2-20 amp circuits to under the sink makes you all warm and fuzzy, who am I to argue. 8-)

My main point, which I will emphasize again, is that if the electrician wanted to run 2 circuits, running a MWBC (12/3) is a more efficient way to accomplish that what we see in the picture. That's all I'm trying to point out.

tonyou812

03-08-2009, 03:02 PM

I just reread my post and i really didnt mean to sound like a smarty pants.
But If a customer asked me to wire two major appliances i would run a 12/3 and charge accordingly.
Look at another scenario: if you had to wire a laundry room would you just run a 12/2 and be done...? What do you think is going to happen when the HO is using the washer,gas dryer and a iron at the same time? are you going to tell me that this isnt possible? or that you meet your code requirement and you did your job?
How many office renos have you done that many times on the print they have 2,3,4, or maybe even just five outlets on a circut? do you say what a waste....? what are they going to plug in a computer, a light, maybe a clock ....? its all how you look at it I guess.

ohm

03-08-2009, 06:13 PM

It makes no difference to me how many 20 amp circuits you want to run under the sink. Heck, if you're getting paid to run 5 circuits to under the sink, great! Do I think it's a waste? Yes, I agree with Scott on that. But if running 2-20 amp circuits to under the sink makes you all warm and fuzzy, who am I to argue. 8-)

My main point, which I will emphasize again, is that if the electrician wanted to run 2 circuits, running a MWBC (12/3) is a more efficient way to accomplish that what we see in the picture. That's all I'm trying to point out.

I always run a MWBC, if permitted by Code. They save material, labor and operating costs. Sure, you've got to be careful not to lift the neutral under load but it's worth it. AFCI's have pretty well limited how many we can run but I never pass up a chance.

And, I never use #14. Especially with AFCI's.

steelersman

03-08-2009, 06:54 PM

I always run a MWBC, if permitted by Code.

what do mean if permitted? When are they not?

AFCI's have pretty well limited how many we can run but I never pass up a chance.

You can't put MWBC's on AFCI protection?

And, I never use #14. Especially with AFCI's

So AFCI's don't like #14? This is new to me. I wonder why they don't specify on the instructions : "not to be installed on 15 amp circuits" or "will not work on 15 amp circuits"

you renegade you. :)

Rockyd

03-08-2009, 07:01 PM

No MWBC in C1D1 (501.4) area either.

ohm

03-08-2009, 07:11 PM

what do mean if permitted? When are they not?

You can't put MWBC's on AFCI protection?

So AFCI's don't like #14? This is new to me. I wonder why they don't specify on the instructions : "not to be installed on 15 amp circuits" or "will not work on 15 amp circuits"

you renegade you. :)

AFCI breakers won't work on MWBC's...since there are only a few places left in resi work that we don't need an AFCI.

Because our county limits us to: (12) outlets on a 20A ckt and (10) on a 15A ckt the following cost of AFCI's per ckt. are:

If I spend $40 for a 20A ckt it works out to 40/12= $3.33/outlet

If I spend $40 for a 15A ckt it works out to 40/10= $4.00/outlet

So, between labor and material and available space in a typ. 42 space panel #14 just ain't worth it.

Go Steelers!!

steelersman

03-08-2009, 07:19 PM

AFCI breakers won't work on MWBC's...since there are only a few places left in resi work that we don't need an AFCI.

Because our county limits us to: (12) outlets on a 20A ckt and (10) on a 15A ckt the following cost of AFCI's per ckt. are:

If I spend $40 for a 20A ckt it works out to 40/12= $3.33/outlet

If I spend $40 for a 15A ckt it works out to 40/10= $4.00/outlet

So, between labor and material and available space in a typ. 42 space panel #14 just ain't worth it.

Go Steelers!!
I can't believe a county would limit the amount of recepts on a circuit. Crazy I say!!

GO STEELERS!!

:)

ohm

03-08-2009, 07:26 PM

I can't believe a county would limit the amount of recepts on a circuit. Crazy I say!!

GO STEELERS!!

:)

Yea that's what everyone says but even w/o the 12/10 number the ratio still holds true and it still seems like #14 is a waste.

Pierre C Belarge

03-08-2009, 07:45 PM

I would take that to mean through a floor in the middle of a room or where it's exposed. Around here the inspectors don't make us sleeve the romex coming up through the floor directly under the dishwasher. And how would you sleeve it in rigid above 6 inches through the floor if it's directly under the dishwasher? You wouldn't be able to.

now for island plugs then yes we sleeve them inside the cabinet.

If one cannot or does not want to comply with the protection from physical damage when installing a cable through the floor, than a relocation of the location of the cable is in order. I do not see any relief from this section in regards as to when and where one installs through the floor. I am usually surprised to see the cable through the floor under dishwashers. I would think that the logical location for the cable would be under the sink.

Has anyone mentioned that there are no staples or straps on the romex?

Yes, earlier ;)

steelersman

03-08-2009, 07:51 PM

I am usually surprised to see the cable through the floor under dishwashers. I would think that the logical location for the cable would be under the sink.

well something has to be under the dishwasher. Whether it's the romex (hardwired, which is the only way I've done and seen it done) or a cord it's going to be under the DW as the factory j-box is in the front right side of the DW.

Fulthrotl

03-08-2009, 08:24 PM

No MWBC in C1D1 (501.4) area either.

it's only a CL1 DIV 1 kitchen if you are making really, really hot chili......

rt66electric

03-08-2009, 08:25 PM

This looks like a aftermarket sevice call installation. The customer may have spent over $600 on labor. The cost of materials on the second circuit may run only $25. I as a serviceman always try to give the customer more than the asked for. I basically refuse to do the absolute-by-the-code-bare-minimum, because I know that a year later they won't be satisfied and proceed to tell other other people that I was a idiot for doing what they asked. On the other hand if I run another circut, or preplan for thier next project, or add another oulet in a convient location. They are very happy and give out glowing recommedations.

In my jurisdiction 14-2 is basically banned anywhere in a dwelling.

In the OP picture the only violation I see is that the romex needs to be sleeved in greenfield or such. The customer may realized that he has enough power available for undercabinet lighting or more ampacity for countertop recepts, and may call you back for additional projects.

On the other hand- the cheapo slumlord will never be

happy.

Fulthrotl

03-08-2009, 08:34 PM

If one cannot or does not want to comply with the protection from physical damage when installing a cable through the floor, than a relocation of the location of the cable is in order.

ok, i saw the picture way back at the beginning of this thread, and i'm
just puzzled why the boxes were not mounted on the back of the cabinet,
side by side, with the romex exiting the bottom into that nasty ugly hole
that was cut. the boxes would have hidden that butchered hole, and made
half of the posts here unnecessary. i wonder if the person who installed this
knew how much of our valuable time would be lost on a sunday evaluating
both is work, and his family heritage....:D

electricmanscott

03-08-2009, 08:43 PM

In my jurisdiction 14-2 is basically banned anywhere in a dwelling.

.

What a sad statement. :rolleyes:

electricmanscott

03-08-2009, 08:44 PM

electricmanscott

03-08-2009, 08:50 PM

Goodness gracious! The cost to run two 12/2 cables instead of a 12/3 is $6.40 a roll?!? How will I be able to overcome such a drastic oversight? :D

Much ado over nothing. Aside from the protection issues, there isn't a problem in the picture, IMO.

As Pete pointed out these are things you better start thinking about. We don't want you to become a statistic. :wink:

The cost of the wire may be an addtional six bucks, but keep in mind it didn't install itself. The extra box, cover and receptacle weren't free either.

In this case it is not really a big deal. Multiply this lack of thinking over many jobs and it gets expensive.

It was the mentality of the install more so than the actuall installation. Which I still think stinks. :grin:

peter d

03-08-2009, 09:36 PM

I as a serviceman always try to give the customer more than the asked for.

When you do that, does it come out of the customers pocket, your pocket, or the bosses pocket?

peter d

03-08-2009, 09:37 PM

It was the mentality of the install more so than the actuall installation. Which I still think stinks. :grin:

That's what I was trying to point out all along.

tonyou812

03-08-2009, 10:59 PM

Aww come on just admit it already .....you guys are bare bone , code minimum, electricians and you love it. So be cheap and be proud, cause we all still love you guys. pphhhsss this bud is for you.

LarryFine

03-09-2009, 12:25 AM

. . . I know that a year later they won't be satisfied and proceed to tell other other people that I was a idiot for doing what they asked.
"He's a terrible electrician! He did what I wanted done!" Horrors! :rolleyes:

On the other hand if I run another circut, or preplan for thier next project, or add another oulet in a convient location. They are very happy and give out glowing recommedations.Either that, or the next guy they hire makes money on your foresight.

tonyou812

03-09-2009, 01:03 AM

Somebody stick a fork in this thread already........

quogueelectric

03-09-2009, 01:17 AM

I get a minimum of 3200-3500 for a kitchen and there is plenty of wiggle room for 8-20 amp cks. I buy a 1000 ft reel of 12-3 and have the rest of the reel usually 600ft to use for other jobs however long it lasts. I love doing kitchens. Never had a callback. Set it and forget it.

steelersman

03-09-2009, 06:38 PM

"He's a terrible electrician! He did what I wanted done!" Horrors! :rolleyes:

Either that, or the next guy they hire makes money on your foresight.
or they acuse you of trying to sell them extra work that they don't need.

cowboyjwc

03-09-2009, 07:01 PM

You would be surprise how many electricians and inspectors, for that matter, that think two 20 or even one 20 amp circuit is required for the DW and disposal.

Rewire

03-09-2009, 07:08 PM

You would be surprise how many electricians and inspectors, for that matter, that think two 20 or even one 20 amp circuit is required for the DW and disposal.

I have had an inspector ask me were the "circuit" for the garbage disposer was. I pointed out that their was no garbage disposer then he says well what if they put one in and I replied they will call me and pay for it.

steelersman

03-09-2009, 07:15 PM

I have had an inspector ask me were the "circuit" for the garbage disposer was. I pointed out that their was no garbage disposer then he says well what if they put one in and I replied they will call me and pay for it.
inspectors or people for that matter with that idea should be put out of their misery.

LarryFine

03-09-2009, 07:38 PM

I have had an inspector ask me were the "circuit" for the garbage disposer was. I pointed out that their was no garbage disposer then he says well what if they put one in and I replied they will call me and pay for it.Does he also insist on a microwave circuit, or a hot tub circuit, or a detached garage circuit, or . . .

LarryFine

03-09-2009, 07:41 PM

inspectors or people for that matter with that idea should be put out of their misery. . . . and ours. :roll:

steelersman

03-09-2009, 07:47 PM

. . . And ours. :roll:
:) :) :) :)

pbeasley

03-10-2009, 01:59 AM

FWIW, I had the opportunity to completely rewire my house and a new 2nd floor addition a while back. There's not a single run of 12/3 in the job. Wondering why? Answers simple. At the time it was about $48/250' spool of 12/2 and $78/250' from one supplier but 2nd supplier musta had something going on cause it was only $34/250' Spool of 12/2. Since the labor was "free" and the walls were wide open it seemed like a no brainer.

On the other hand, I did not have the same luck on 14/2, so there is a fair amount of 14/3 in there :grin: