check this Pic

[Rewire]

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj137/rewire_photo/delberthouse008-2.jpg

Here is a dock disconnect fed from a breaker at the condo

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj137/rewire_photo/delberthouse010-1.jpg

This is the J box were they spliced the neutral to feed the dock and then to disconnect the black spot is from the a poorly taped lug

[ibew441dc]

I'm pretty sure that would fall under the category of Objectionable Current flow.(assuming the box is properly bonded, shock hazard at the very least)

Very Dangerous......... good thing you found it.......bad thing it was there for who knows how long

[Pierre C Belarge]

"250.6(C) Temporary Currents Not Classified as Ojectionable Currents.
Temporary currents resulting from accidental conditions, such as ground faults, shall not be classified as objectionable current for the purposes specified in 250.6(A) and (B)."

[ibew441dc]

"250.6(C) Temporary Currents Not Classified as Ojectionable Currents.
Temporary currents resulting from accidental conditions, such as ground faults, shall not be classified as objectionable current for the purposes specified in 250.6(A) and (B)."

True, But.......

250.6 Objectionable Current. (A) Arrangement to Prevent Objectionable Current.
The grounding of electrical systems, circuit conductors, surge arresters, surge-protective devices, and conductive normally non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment shall be installed and arranged in a manner that will prevent objectionable current.

Common Pierre I know you didn't over look the basics did you:roll:

250 Definition-Ground Fault. An unintentional, electrically conducting connection between an ungrounded conductor of an electrical circuit and the normally non–current-carrying conductors, metallic enclosures, metallic raceways, metallic equipment, or earth.

since when was Grounded ....Ungrounded?

[Pierre C Belarge]

Daniel
I do not understand your point.

[ibew441dc]

"250.6(C) Temporary Currents Not Classified as Ojectionable Currents.
Temporary currents resulting from accidental conditions, such as ground faults, shall not be classified as objectionable current for the purposes specified in 250.6(A) and (B)."

Okay....maybe I misunderstood yours. You made this comment regarding my original comment. What did you mean?

A neutral connection to an equipment grounding conductor is not a Ground Fault, it is Objectional Current.

[Pierre C Belarge]

Okay....maybe I misunderstood yours. You made this comment regarding my original comment. What did you mean?

A neutral connection to an equipment grounding conductor is not a Ground Fault, it is Objectional Current.


From the arc on the cover as pictured, I saw a ground fault condition.


Neutral-ground connections are considered as Objectional Current, I agree.

[wireguru]

im confused. Why isnt there a neutral leaving the breaker enclosure?

[ibew441dc]

From the arc on the cover as pictured, I saw a ground fault condition.


Neutral-ground connections are considered as Objectional Current, I agree.


In Rewire's original post below the bottom picture, a referral was made to the spliced neutral......ect.

My interpretation of Rewire's statement was , that it was the neutral that was spliced and touching the enclosure. Thus being objectionable current, not a ground fault.

[480sparky]

im confused. Why isnt there a neutral leaving the breaker enclosure?

I saw that too..... only one pipe has a noodle.

[ibew441dc]

im confused. Why isnt there a neutral leaving the breaker enclosure?

"Short Answer"
If this is a picture of service equipment.........a grounded conductor is required to be brought in with the supply.
On the Load side it appears an equipment grounding conductor of the wire type is run with the ungrounded conductors to the load.(in this pic, hard to tell but looks like EGC is too small)

A neutral is not necessary if the load does not require one......Maybe its feeding a 240 volt 2 wire something?

[Rewire]

"Short Answer"
If this is a picture of service equipment.........a grounded conductor is required to be brought in with the supply.
On the Load side it appears an equipment grounding conductor of the wire type is run with the ungrounded conductors to the load.(in this pic, hard to tell but looks like EGC is too small)

A neutral is not necessary if the load does not require one......Maybe its feeding a 240 volt 2 wire something?

They brought a four wire system from the building service panel in the junction box they spliced the neutral and ran it out to the dock they then took the neutral uo to the disconnect with the line side. The neutral was poorly taped and arced on the cover

[Pierre C Belarge]

You are sure the neutral was arcing to the cover?

[ibew441dc]

You are sure the neutral was arcing to the cover?

Pierre,

Rewire said the neutral was poorly taped and arced against the cover.


As you well know.......current does not take the path of least resistance, it takes all available paths.

Although unintentional, This conductor was making a poor connection, with probably some significant impedance, causing a good enough voltage drop to start heating up.......resulting in Objectionable Current flow.

[nakulak]

I have often worried about the sharp ends of split bolts poking thru scotch pad and tape over time, just like it appears in the picture.

[RUWired]

I have often worried about the sharp ends of split bolts poking thru scotch pad and tape over time, just like it appears in the picture.
What happend to the days when you could jam all those splices in there and use a furring strip to keep them away from the cover.

[wireguru]

I have often worried about the sharp ends of split bolts poking thru scotch pad and tape over time, just like it appears in the picture.


this exact thing happened with a 480v disco tapped on the line side, 5ft from service panel which was maybe 30ft from the transformer. blew up in my face, luckily the blast went out the side of the can and not the front.

[electricalperson]

we done a job on a dock that had 480 volt welding receptacles protected by fuses in a fused disco right on the dock. somehow the fuse blew and one of the workers replaced a fuse and didnt stick it in all the way or something but it ended up touching the cover and blew a hole in it

[lat1]

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj137/rewire_photo/delberthouse008-2.jpg

Here is a dock disconnect fed from a breaker at the condo

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj137/rewire_photo/delberthouse010-1.jpg

This is the J box were they spliced the neutral to feed the dock and then to disconnect the black spot is from the a poorly taped lug

that dock looks a lot like the one at my moms condo. is that near the new bridge?

[JohnJ0906]

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj137/rewire_photo/delberthouse010-1.jpg

This is the J box were they spliced the neutral to feed the dock and then to disconnect the black spot is from the a poorly taped lug

Looks like a nice layer of dirt/sand in the bottom of that Jbox.

[iwire]

Pierre,

Rewire said the neutral was poorly taped and arced against the cover.

If indeed it was the neutral making that much of a mark I would be very concerned that the neutral on the supply side is open or has some high impedance connections.

A neutral will generally not leave a mark when shorted to grounded metal.

[don_resqcapt19]

They brought a four wire system from the building service panel in the junction box they spliced the neutral and ran it out to the dock they then took the neutral uo to the disconnect with the line side. The neutral was poorly taped and arced on the cover
Why did the neutral arc? In the absence of an open or very poor connection on the neutral, I would not expect an arc. The only voltage available to drive an arc to a grounded enclosure would be the voltage drop on the neutral. Yes, there would be a parallel path, but I would not expect to find visible arc damage.

[ibew441dc]

Originally Posted by ibew441dc View Post
Pierre,
Rewire said the neutral was poorly taped and arced against the cover......

If indeed it was the neutral making that much of a mark I would be very concerned that the neutral on the supply side is open or has some high impedance connections.

A neutral will generally not leave a mark when shorted to grounded metal.

......Although unintentional, This conductor was making a poor connection, with probably some significant impedance, causing a good enough voltage drop to start heating up.......resulting in Objectionable Current flow.


There are a few plausible scenarios that could easily result in arcing of this magnitude from the (what looks like to me Aluminum Utility Grounded Conductor, that is spliced).

1)As you stated an open neutral would be very likely.....
2)As we both implied the neutral has too much impedance....
3)Another definite culprit would be induced lightning and/or high voltage transient, that would definitely do it .

[RUWired]

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj137/rewire_photo/delberthouse010-1.jpg

This is the J box were they spliced the neutral to feed the dock and then to disconnect the black spot is from the a poorly taped lug
Thats a good example of a 314.28(A)2 violation.

[wawireguy]

I'm looking at this thing and I don't see the EGC brought in with the feeders to the disco on the doc. Looks like it comes in from a KO on the bottom. My guess would be that the neutral is bonded to the can and acted as the EGC in a fault condition and that the cover on the shore was a better path than the neutral. I might be way off on this though?