"No splices shall be used in power, control, and/or signal wiring"

[bullheimer]

This is used over and over, three times at least in these Elec. Specs for a small small remodel job in a waste facility. New circuits have to be run for receptacles into a new room, as well as for lights.

Has anyone seen this in a spec sheet before? and how did you wire it? This is an all conduit job in a framed in room so all the emt would have to drop down from above the ceiling. How is this even possible? And why do they call out to use only 3M or Ideal wire nuts, if there is NO SPLICING???

[walkerj]

I can understand the signal and control wiring, but with the power it is impossible.

Silly engineer

[quogueelectric]

With enough money and enough time anything is possible.

[brian john]

This is used over and over, three times at least in these Elec. Specs for a small small remodel job in a waste facility. New circuits have to be run for receptacles into a new room, as well as for lights.

?

Saw on a spec for a WWTP

Same thing all conductors will be insulation resistance test (megger) for a minimum of 5 minutes. ALL?
All circuit breakers will be high current tested to include meggering, contact resistance measurements and insulation resistance test (megger). ALL

[bullheimer]

hey, bra, waste water treatment plant??? so what did you end up doing?

and walkerj, what about those telephone style crimps you put three wires into them, they are filled with silicone-like stuff and you squeeze them and they make a stellar connection. still....more concerned about the power.

[ohm]

They had to mean no splices in the conduit or condulets.

[electricalperson]

Saw on a spec for a WWTP

Same thing all conductors will be insulation resistance test (megger) for a minimum of 5 minutes. ALL?
All circuit breakers will be high current tested to include meggering, contact resistance measurements and insulation resistance test (megger). ALL

do they actually enforce that? did they require test papers for every piece of wire and breaker?

[brian john]

do they actually enforce that? did they require test papers for every piece of wire and breaker?


We bid to all ECs and bid it two ways what was spec'd and what was practical.

[Besoeker]

This is used over and over, three times at least in these Elec. Specs for a small small remodel job in a waste facility. New circuits have to be run for receptacles into a new room, as well as for lights.

Has anyone seen this in a spec sheet before? and how did you wire it? This is an all conduit job in a framed in room so all the emt would have to drop down from above the ceiling. How is this even possible? And why do they call out to use only 3M or Ideal wire nuts, if there is NO SPLICING???
I see it often stated either explicitly in customer specifications or by reference to a particular standard. The intent is that there will be no joints that you can't get to for inspection and testing. It doesn't mean you always have to run a continuous length of cable but, with few exceptions, any joint has to be by means of a terminal box or similar arrangement.

[brian john]

I see it often stated either explicitly in customer specifications or by reference to a particular standard. The intent is that there will be no joints that you can't get to for inspection and testing. It doesn't mean you always have to run a continuous length of cable but, with few exceptions, any joint has to be by means of a terminal box or similar arrangement.

Yes but an on site inspector with little or no practical field experience or a hard nosed inspector can read this as he wants.

[iwire]

I see it often stated either explicitly in customer specifications or by reference to a particular standard. The intent is that there will be no joints that you can't get to for inspection and testing. It doesn't mean you always have to run a continuous length of cable but, with few exceptions, any joint has to be by means of a terminal box or similar arrangement.

The NEC already requires us to install that way.

It appears these specs would be above and beyond that.

[jrannis]

Looks like time for an RFI.
One word could make a difference and could have been cropped out or mistakenly deleted.

[Besoeker]

The NEC already requires us to install that way.
It appears these specs would be above and beyond that.
I'm not disputing what you say, but maybe you could expand on how the specs go above and beyond?

[Speedskater]

For 120V receptacles, you could use the Cooper HD receptacles with 4 back-stab set-screw wires and daisy-chain the outlets. Don't know how to deal with the EGC's though.

Cooper #5252W-SP

[ELA]

This is used over and over, three times at least in these Elec. Specs for a small small remodel job in a waste facility. New circuits have to be run for receptacles into a new room, as well as for lights.

Has anyone seen this in a spec sheet before? and how did you wire it? This is an all conduit job in a framed in room so all the emt would have to drop down from above the ceiling. How is this even possible? And why do they call out to use only 3M or Ideal wire nuts, if there is NO SPLICING???

As always it is nice to read the entire specification to help interpret what is meant.
Just as it reads I would take it to mean what Besoeker has said.

I have seen it in many specifications only more specifically with respect to butt splices. I would not normally think of a wire nut in a junction box as a splice. I think of it as a connection point.
Although I do understand that many others might consider that a splice. It is one of those words that is often used in a more general sense.

[bullheimer]

i put it in just as the spec sheet states it. three times. does not elaborate. however, yes, no doubt some dummy architect wrote it that doesnt know whatta splice is. RFIs the general doesnt want to rock the boat that much. he came back and said "no splices" but when i asked to see the rfi i got nothing back, so have to wonder if he even asked.

in the spec sheet it says to electrical submittals have to include the elec. specs. with writing on them. is that supposed to come from me to them via the general? or do i just give them to the general and he does what he wants with them. they, as i am now, am almost afraid to give them back for fear that they will spell it out even further "no splices". but i got the impression for their foreman to just do it the way i normally would do it and forget them. still, they have a guy on site all the time. i guess if i am made to by this guy after i pull the wires into a jbox i will have to repull them. they also have a rule that no conduit run will contain more than 270 degrees of bends and no longer than 100ft btwn pull boxes. archetects!!!! :(

speedskater, if stuck to the spec looping is the only way out. ...whats an ecg

[iwire]

i put it in just as the spec sheet states it. three times. does not elaborate. however, yes, no doubt some dummy architect wrote it that doesn't know whatta splice is.

Instead of calling this unknown person names pick up the phone and ask them what they mean or submit an RFI.


RFIs the general doesnt want to rock the boat that much.


Well no one here can tell you what the person writing the spec actually means.

Me I would take it to mean no unnecessary terminations.


they also have a rule that no conduit run will contain more than 270 degrees of bends and no longer than 100ft btwn pull boxes. archetects!!!! :(

That is a pretty common spec, people hire engineers to make sure they get quality work. If the company you work for bid on these specs and won the bid it is your job to follow them no mater how odd you find them.

[480sparky]

........they also have a rule that no conduit run will contain more than 270 degrees of bends and no longer than 100ft btwn pull boxes. archetects!!!! :(

speedskater, if stuck to the spec looping is the only way out. ...whats an ecg

Specs can always be whatever the EE, architect, owner and/or designer want them to be, as long as they conform to the Codes. Their job is not to make your job easier.

egc=equipment grounding conductor.






Although, I must say, the strangest spec I ever saw was a requirement for keyless pullchains.

[iwire]

Although, I must say, the strangest spec I ever saw was a requirement for keyless pullchains.

I think that would be just a pull chain. :D

[480sparky]

I think that would be just a pull chain. :D

I did too, considering there was no wall switch, but a keyless one? :confused:

[bullheimer]

2.03 Connectors.
A.All wiring shall be continuous from point to point - no splices of any kind are allowed. All control and signal wire shall land on numbered terminals.
B. Ideal Industries "Wing Nut" or 3M Company " SCOTCHLOCK" pre-insulated connectors may be used for general purpose lighting and recep circuits for splices and taps in conductors No. 10 AWG and smaller. For No. 8 AWG and larger conductors, utilize T&B compression connectors. Compress using recommended die and tools.

So how do you reconcile BOTH of these in the same paragraph? That's what is so insane about this thing. ( As far as i am concerned, B above gives me the right to do it the way its spozed to be done) and their definition for flex...dig this:

2.01.3 Conduit:
C:Flexible Conduit (LFS)
1. Flexible conduit shall be interlocking single strip, galvanized and shall have a polyvinyl chloride jacket extruded over the outside to form a flexible watertight raceway. Non-metallic flexible conduit shall have non-metallic threaded fittings. (nowhere in the specs is there a proper definition of flexible metallic conduit, nor permission to use it).

I wire you are such a whiner with this name calling thing. you make it feel like this site is in a nursery school for crying out loud. It's obvious to anybody reading this spec sheet whoever wrote it doesnt know SQUAT about wiring anything. On top of that, I AM PROHIBITED BY THE GENERAL TO SPEAK DIRECTLY TO ANY OF THE OWNERS. (snohomish county) Trust me, i would LOVE to set this guy straight.

[Cow]

2.03 Connectors.
A.All wiring shall be continuous from point to point - no splices of any kind are allowed. All control and signal wire shall land on numbered terminals.
B. Ideal Industries "Wing Nut" or 3M Company " SCOTCHLOCK" pre-insulated connectors may be used for general purpose lighting and recep circuits for splices and taps in conductors No. 10 AWG and smaller. For No. 8 AWG and larger conductors, utilize T&B compression connectors. Compress using recommended die and tools.

You said originally no splices, what you posted above said wiring is continuous point-point. I read that as splices are allowed at devices using the above mentioned wire nuts and crimps.


I wire you are such a whiner with this name calling thing. you make it feel like this site is in a nursery school for crying out loud.

Is this your way of asking for help?:roll:

[iwire]

I wire you are such a whiner with this name calling thing. you make it feel like this site is in a nursery school for crying out loud.

Thats funny, I am not the one saying my job is to difficult.

[Smart $]

2.03 Connectors.
A.All wiring shall be continuous from point to point - no splices of any kind are allowed. All control and signal wire shall land on numbered terminals.
B. Ideal Industries "Wing Nut" or 3M Company " SCOTCHLOCK" pre-insulated connectors may be used for general purpose lighting and recep circuits for splices and taps in conductors No. 10 AWG and smaller. For No. 8 AWG and larger conductors, utilize T&B compression connectors. Compress using recommended die and tools.

So how do you reconcile BOTH of these in the same paragraph? That's what is so insane about this thing. ( As far as i am concerned, B above gives me the right to do it the way its spozed to be done) and their definition for flex...dig this:
No unnecessary splices. It's really quite simple. If a circuit gets pulled from its source through several j-boxes en route its final destination, there will not be any splices in those j-boxes except for tapping-splices of shared multi-outlet conductors, i.e. three or more wires electrically connected out of necessity.

2.01.3 Conduit:
C:Flexible Conduit (LFS)
1. Flexible conduit shall be interlocking single strip, galvanized and shall have a polyvinyl chloride jacket extruded over the outside to form a flexible watertight raceway. Non-metallic flexible conduit shall have non-metallic threaded fittings. (nowhere in the specs is there a proper definition of flexible metallic conduit, nor permission to use it).
I agree. You cannot use FMC. You are permitted to use only LFMC and LFNMC, and no metallic fittings for the latter. There is really nothing about this spec' that is hard to understand.

[bullheimer]

OKAY so i run a pipe to a room. there are recepts on three walls. going by this spec means loop it. I UNDERSTAND PLAIN ENGLISH but practically, doing this means looping the power either up and down from a j box over head which would over-fill the conduit or run pipe all around the whole room inside the framing, RATHER than one j box over head with one feed in and three out. As any NORMAL person would install it.

And why would anyone require liquidtight inside the building? nothing else is raintight.

B: means to me splice it whereever i want (jbox) for the lights and recept ckts, which sounds normal, and then yes, if i can run a dedicated ckt all the way w/o cutting it then i should be fine with that as well. but only because this is a very small building. otherwise it would be almost impossible to run in one pull. (and why do i care? easy, i am doing this whole job by myself, just like i bid it)

this is just yet ANOTHER example why NO one should be allowed to become and electrical engineer or architect w/o spending at every summer "vacation" from school packin around a tool pouch. it's just unbelievable: you guys sitting here telling me how easy it is to follow these specs. please go back and read the first reply... THIS GUY knows what i'm talking about. anyway adios for now. got my input, thanks alot. have a nice day.