90 degree wiring upgrade

[MrMilbank]

Changed a fixture requiring 90 degree wiring supplied with fried 60 degree wiring (used 100W bulbs when fixture rates max at 60W) to a fixture requiring 90 degree wiring fed with 90 degree wiring. I have my actuals on time and bid price from the past years for this type of job. What is your bid?

Here are Photos from this job:
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt255/lrkuhlthau/DSC00655.jpg
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt255/lrkuhlthau/DSC00654.jpg
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt255/lrkuhlthau/DSC00646.jpg
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt255/lrkuhlthau/DSC00648.jpg
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt255/lrkuhlthau/DSC00649.jpg
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt255/lrkuhlthau/DSC00650.jpg
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt255/lrkuhlthau/DSC00652.jpg
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt255/lrkuhlthau/DSC00657.jpg

[infinity]

How long did it take start to finish about 2 man hours? That's what I would bid. Nice job, except you're missing a ground screw in the pancake box. :rolleyes:

[frankft2000]

How long did it take start to finish about 2 man hours? That's what I would bid. Nice job, except you're missing a ground screw in the pancake box. :rolleyes:

It might be under the neutral conductor.

[aline]

Nice job, except you're missing a ground screw in the pancake box. :rolleyes:
Maybe it was installed while installing the light fixture after the photo was taken.

[Rewire]

It might be under the neutral conductor.

nope,you can see the hole were the screw goes

[MrMilbank]

it was installed while installing the light fixture after the photo was taken.

Bid this job.

[LarryFine]

Bid this job.
$225, including the fan-rated box.

[MrMilbank]

nice bid, lets get some more.

[LarryFine]

nice bid, lets get some more.How'd I do? :confused:

[MrMilbank]

1.25-4 hours = an average of 2 hours 45 minutes @ $89hr plus the tax and materials.
extra for fabrications made to attic floor or ceiling with no attic access
$250-$375
that one was 2.5hrs from parking the truck to switching on the light. and came to $265
easy to remove box, ceiling joist right above box, attic floor open, but through a doggy sized door in a crawlspace across attic.

[PetrosA]

Hehe, my boss might have charged about $150 total, which is why we're almost out of business...

I'm going to ask everybody for opinions on that ground screw while we're at it - The new 14-2 is tied in to an old romex w/out ground. What is your common practice for using ground screws in this situation? If you do use one in the pancake, another electrician may assume it's grounded when in fact it's not. If you cut the ground wire off (I've done that when replacing two wire to a T-slot receptacle so that no one installs a three-prong outlet without rewiring) then if the light does get rewired and your splice is pretty far away, the next guy will have to rewire it anyway instead of just splicing into your wire. Secondly, using a ground screw in the attic could confuse someone as to which is the feed (assuming the wire runs off to who knows where) and they could try tapping into that line, hooking up a ground and carrying the problem further.

In my humble opinion, it's safer to cut the ground wire back so you don't mislead anyone into thinking they've got a ground when they don't. Your opinion?

[MrMilbank]

In this case the old wire was BX. If it were romex without a ground I would have ran a new circuit stating the obvious reason why. Eliminating a ground to prevent a problem is actually adding to a violation with your name on it last. Possibly the other reason business is going bad.

[MrMilbank]

I think I've changed some outlets after you, wondering why my grounds are tucked behind the metal box, or cut to a 1/2inch in the box.

[benaround]

MrMilbank,

Do those pancake boxes need some sort of a connector for the romex ?

[MrMilbank]

they come with one of those snap on in the hole plastic push through connectors. its black so you cant see it in the pic.

[aline]

nice bid, lets get some more.
Side Jobber's Price: $39.00
Electrician's Price: $139.00
My Price: $399.00
My Doctor's Price: $3,999.00

[MrMilbank]

the same house had a portion of the attic covered in 3/4" solid board. and the wiring was cooked all the way through the joist to the next open bay. thanks to my wonder bar and a claw hammer i was able to yank the whole 4'10' section up. flush mounted my j-box and fabricated a hole in the wood with my drill and kliens because i left the f*#$ing recip at home. that was one of those 4 hr deals i broke a good sweat over.

[LarryFine]

1.25-4 hours = an average of 2 hours 45 minutes @ $89hr plus the tax and materials. 1.5 hrs, $200 + mats, no tax.

extra for fabrications made to attic floor or ceiling with no attic access . . . Absolutely!

that one was 2.5hrs from parking the truck to switching on the light. . . Seems a little slow to me, but it's always easy to say that. :smile:

easy to remove box, ceiling joist right above box, attic floor open, . . . My estimate presumed those conditions.

[izak]

so, where does the equiment grounding conductor originate?
does it really matter if the bare copper wire is bonded to either box when supplied from a 2 wire circuit?

that WAS a two wire cable was it not?

[crazyboy]

so, where does the equiment grounding conductor originate?
does it really matter if the bare copper wire is bonded to either box when supplied from a 2 wire circuit?

that WAS a two wire cable was it not?

It was BX, so the sheath is acting as the ground.

[PetrosA]

I think I've changed some outlets after you, wondering why my grounds are tucked behind the metal box, or cut to a 1/2inch in the box.

Now that's uncalled for and rude. I asked a legitimate question that anyone who does enough old work will come up against. You will have the option to either charge such a high rate for the work that the customer will choose to live with the danger, or you can weigh options and find a safe, "next best" solution.

Let me ask you this, if that had been a two wire romex, would you have walked away from the job, or charged possibly $1000 or more to rewire the light from the panel (let's assume worst case scenario top landing in a 2 or 3 story victorian, not balloon framed, wallpaper and with three way switching)? Did you check the BX for ground? Are you sure it wasn't tapped with a porcelain grommet into knob and tube somewhere? (Judging by the age of the insulation, it could have been).

[MrMilbank]

I turn the circuit off before I work. So I see the panel and wire types. I open the ceiling so I see the concealed wiring.
If it were a 2 wire romex.. an electrician from the past 4 decades or whatever would have installed it. if it was a knob and tube installation and i wanted to add something to it, that it would be a whole different estimate and job altogethor. I always test my work to prove it to my customers it is safe. if grounds dont exist in the circuit i make them exist at whatever price. that is why I am there. to make something function and function safely, for peoples safety and equipment safety. if making something slightly better at a lower price is desired, I dont wanna be involved. I will clean up what ive already opened up and bill for my estimate and go home and wait for a call.

anyway, the home owner stated to me the home was built in the 50's. a time when the BX used did not have the steel wire to wrap around the outer casing. but through bonding of boxes and ect. a ground is present.

I'm sorry, my comment about the cut off grounds was rude. Just contribute what your "next best" solutions are. so we can all know what options we have besides rewiring.

[aline]

In my humble opinion, it's safer to cut the ground wire back so you don't mislead anyone into thinking they've got a ground when they don't. Your opinion?
I run across these where the ground wire is cut back so nothing can be attached to it.
I hate this.
Often times I'm running a new cable with ground to the first outlet in the circuit so I can ground all the outlets on the circuit.

If the grounds in all the outlets weren't cut back I could easily ground all the outlets by just running the grounded cable to the first outlet. Since the ground is cut back I now have to get a new ground wire to every outlet and not just the first one.

It would be better to label the ground wire as not being grounded.

[ohm]

Now that's uncalled for and rude. I asked a legitimate question that anyone who does enough old work will come up against. You will have the option to either charge such a high rate for the work that the customer will choose to live with the danger, or you can weigh options and find a safe, "next best" solution.

Let me ask you this, if that had been a two wire romex, would you have walked away from the job, or charged possibly $1000 or more to rewire the light from the panel (let's assume worst case scenario top landing in a 2 or 3 story victorian, not balloon framed, wallpaper and with three way switching)? Did you check the BX for ground? Are you sure it wasn't tapped with a porcelain grommet into knob and tube somewhere? (Judging by the age of the insulation, it could have been).

This thread has turned very interesting with the ground issue.

We've all been there and short of running an EGC to the outlet the Code seems to be staying clear of the issue.

It does state all EGC's (green or bare wires) in an outlet shall be tied together and if the outlet is metal the EGC should be tied to it.

Now if the outlet is a non-grounded receptacle, that circuit may be repaired or extended in a variety of ways using "ungrounded circuit" labels.

[MrMilbank]

self grounding outlets with the metal tab and clip under the screw register with my tester as a ground when attached to a metal box fed with metal clad cable. Does anyone know if thats sufficient?

[mivey]

This thread has turned very interesting with the ground issue.

We've all been there and short of running an EGC to the outlet the Code seems to be staying clear of the issue.

It does state all EGC's (green or bare wires) in an outlet shall be tied together and if the outlet is metal the EGC should be tied to it.

Now if the outlet is a non-grounded receptacle, that circuit may be repaired or extended in a variety of ways using "ungrounded circuit" labels.But is it an ECG if it is not used as an ECG? To me, it is just an extra, uninsulated wire. It does not do anything until the circuit is upgraded and I do not cut them off because I anticipate that one day the upgrade is probably going to happen.

I never investigated too much what the code says about it because it seemed like common sense. Of course, the code is not always about common sense.

OTOH, I guess common sense would say to label the wire, but I never thought to do that either.

[LarryFine]

Often times I'm running a new cable with ground to the first outlet in the circuit so I can ground all the outlets on the circuit.

If the grounds in all the outlets weren't cut back I could easily ground all the outlets by just running the grounded cable to the first outlet.If the cables between receptacles contained EGC's, wouldn't the homerun, also?


Plus, if you protect these 2-wire outlets with a GFCI, you mustn't interconnect them with EGC's at all.

[ohm]

self grounding outlets with the metal tab and clip under the screw register with my tester as a ground when attached to a metal box fed with metal clad cable. Does anyone know if thats sufficient?

Art.250.8 (A) list 7 methods any of which is sufficient.

Your method is #5

[ohm]

But is it an ECG if it is not used as an ECG? To me, it is just an extra, uninsulated wire. It does not do anything until the circuit is upgraded and I do not cut them off because I anticipate that one day the upgrade is probably going to happen.

I never investigated too much what the code says about it because it seemed like common sense. Of course, the code is not always about common sense.

OTOH, I guess common sense would say to label the wire, but I never thought to do that either.

I do the same thing when wiring to a porceilan light socket (no ground connection) in a plastic box. I just leave 6" of bare copper in the box for the next time.

[K8MHZ]

(used 100W bulbs when fixture rates max at 60W)

I am telling you, people need to be either licensed or UL listed in order to buy any electrical equipment, including light bulbs.

Either that or go sharply in the other direction and remove all safety labels and let Darwinism prevail.

[PetrosA]

I hadn't thought of labeling the ground, but I will start to do that. My primary concern was that in this area (at least) people do a lot of their own "small jobs" like replacing receptacles. Unfortunately it's not unheard of to see grounded outlets that someone installed into a two wire circuit, especially since when they see a metal wallcase they somehow assume it must be grounded. For those that are more careful, I figured that cutting the ground wire back would at least deter them from putting a 3-prong outlet into the box.

I asked about the BX ground because a lot of the old Vics in this area have BX tied into K+T or in newer homes into a 2-wire romex (ex. to feed a heater), but if you're tester is showing a ground, you're probably ok. The one shock that I got in my career that almost killed me was from a BX sheath that was hot (ungrounded and shorted to the black) when I grabbed it to move it behind a newly framed wall with copper plumbing installed (which I had to reach through to get at the BX). Since that time I NEVER assume a BX is grounded.

As far as frustrating the next guy because my romex needs to be replaced, I guess I'd rather that someone who knows what they're doing take care of that when the time comes than have it on my conscious that I mislead someone into creating a greater danger. A couple of feet of wasted romex during a whole-house rewire isn't going to break the bank ;)

[aline]

If the cables between receptacles contained EGC's, wouldn't the homerun, also?
Not when someone extends the circuit and adds outlets from the existing ungrounded ciruit which I find quite often.


Plus, if you protect these 2-wire outlets with a GFCI, you mustn't interconnect them with EGC's at all.
It's nice to have grounded outlets for your electronics and surge protectors.
It's also safer to have grounded outlets in my opinion.
I see no reason to cut off ground wires making them unusable in the future.
Mark them as ungrounded but don't cut them off.

[aline]

As far as frustrating the next guy because my romex needs to be replaced, I guess I'd rather that someone who knows what they're doing take care of that when the time comes than have it on my conscious that I mislead someone into creating a greater danger. A couple of feet of wasted romex during a whole-house rewire isn't going to break the bank ;)
Replacing romex in a finished house can break the bank.
Fishing new wire in sheetrocked walls or tearing out the sheetrock isn't cheap.

Sometimes someone adds onto the home and the addition is fed from the existing ungrounded circuits. When the existing part of the home is upgraded in the future new circuits with a ground can be ran to the addition and the receptacles in the new addition will be grounded. If the grounds weren't cut off the romex in the new addition wouldn't need to be replaced.

Most homeowners will put in 3-prong receptacles regardless of whether or not there's a ground present.

I don't know about other electricians but I check my receptacles after installing them to verify proper wiring and grounding. If they're not grounded I'll either ground them or I'll put a GFCI receptacle or breaker in and label them ungrounded.

A friend of mine wired his garage. He fed the receptacles from an existing ungrouned circuit. He figured since the ground wires weren't connected to anything he would just cut them off. I later came out and installed a new sub panel in his garage. If he hadn't cut off the grounds I could have easily grounded all of his receptacles at this time. Instead I had to rewire the garage. Not a big deal since it wasn't sheetrocked but still an unecessary expense.

[ohm]

Art 406.3 (D) (3) (c) allows grounding-type receptacle(s) to be installed in 2 wire non-grounded circuits if: supplied through a GFCI and labeled "GFCI Protected" and "No Equipment Ground". A supply of these labels are supplied w/ every GFCI.

So, if a two wire un-grounded circuit runs all over a house and it would be a major chore to try to install an EGC or GFCI receptacles why not just install a GFCI breaker and label the covers?

BTW "An equipment grounding conductor shall not be CONNECTED between the grounding-type receptacles".

However, I would NOT cut any bare wires off short, in case an EGC ever gets run to the circuit.

[PetrosA]

I would draw a line between fixing and extending a two wire circuit. I definitely won't tap into a two wire romex for new stuff, whether it's a receptacle, light, smoke detector etc. At that point let the owner fork over the cash for the new work. I limit those "gray" repairs to where it would be cost prohibitive to run a new line back to the panel, like in the example I gave with the light on the third floor landing or to repair one line to an existing receptacle that's hard/costly to re-feed.

If I have two wire romex feeding, I won't feed three prong outlets, even with a GFI at the beginning. I've seen too many problems with UPS units, computers etc. when the ground is missing. Two wire gets two prong outlets on my jobs.