Policing the industry

[powerslave]

This may be a touchy subject, but has anyone else had to step up the policing of their area in regards to handymen and sidejobbers doing installations without permits? I know times are tough and believe me, I wish I didn't have to spend money on contractors insurance, bonds, registration fees, or my customers having to pay for permits. But the fact is it's the law. In the past I've only had to turn in a handful of homeowners for not getting permits or having work done by unlicensed installers. But the last couple of months I've had to turn in over a dozen people. Has anyone else noticed a spike in the number of violations in their area?

Case in point: I recieved a call last night to look at a hot tub installation in the area. I made an appointment for this morning. When I got there a handyman service was already there and performing the installation. The homeowner apologized for not calling to cancel the appointment. I asked if he had a permit. All I got back was a blank stare. I asked the handyman if he was licensed and registered in the municipality to do electrical installations. He admitted he was not. I have no choice but to call on Monday and turn him in.

[Rewire]

This may be a touchy subject, but has anyone else had to step up the policing of their area in regards to handymen and sidejobbers doing installations without permits? I know times are tough and believe me, I wish I didn't have to spend money on contractors insurance, bonds, registration fees, or my customers having to pay for permits. But the fact is it's the law. In the past I've only had to turn in a handful of homeowners for not getting permits or having work done by unlicensed installers. But the last couple of months I've had to turn in over a dozen people. Has anyone else noticed a spike in the number of violations in their area?

Case in point: I recieved a call last night to look at a hot tub installation in the area. I made an appointment for this morning. When I got there a handyman service was already there and performing the installation. The homeowner apologized for not calling to cancel the appointment. I asked if he had a permit. All I got back was a blank stare. I asked the handyman if he was licensed and registered in the municipality to do electrical installations. He admitted he was not. I have no choice but to call on Monday and turn him in.

First I hope you billed the customer second don't loose one minutes sleep for turning this guy in .
Remember he is the one breaking the law not you.

[Goroon]

Not just for you, but also with those working around, with or after you.
Evaluate the seriousness of hazards.
Decide if you need to take action.
Don’t ignore signs of trouble.


Enough said:mad:

[480sparky]

Gee. I can't image why you would feel bad about turning someone in for breaking the law. I mean, what would the alternative be?































































http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Housefire.jpg

Oh.......... right. That! I forgot.

[jumper]

the fact is it's the law. I have no choice but to call on Monday and turn him in.
I agree.

First I hope you billed the customer second don't loose one minutes sleep for turning this guy in .
Remember he is the one breaking the law not you.
Ditto.

IMHO you are actually doing the HO a favor, trying to save him from stupid.

[powerslave]

Gee. I can't image why you would feel bad about turning someone in for breaking the law. I mean, what would the alternative be?

I don't feel bad I feel frustrated. The building depts. just don't have the manpower to police the building trades so as licensed contractors we have to do it ourselves. It's up to us. I don't have the least bit problem with that.

I guess in the good times when there's a lot of work it may be easier not to notice or care. The truth is we need to be more vigilant at all times. Before someone get's hurt.

[powerslave]

IMHO you are actually doing the HO a favor, trying to save him from stupid.

We have it posted on our website about the importance of hiring a licensed contractor. We warn people to "beware of those who know just enough to be dangerous".:wink:

[chris1971]

I turn in "handyman" who do electrical work in the twin cities (MN). I also get a fair amount of calls from people who want my company to come in and fix what the handyman did incorrectly.

[powerslave]

I turn in "handyman" who do electrical work in the twin cities (MN). I also get a fair amount of calls from people who want my company to come in and fix what the handyman did incorrectly.

That's another point we make on our website. The countless times we have to repair what handymen and unlicensed individuals install.

[Minuteman]

Bring up another questions. What about licensed guys that don't pull permits?

[Pierre C Belarge]

This is a touchy topic, especially when it comes to licensees who do not pull permits.
Where does one draw the line? I believe it is up to the individual to make that choice.

Whenever times get tough, this topic becomes the number 1 topic at meetings I attend. When times are booming, it almost disappears.

I think that consistency of enforcement and dealing with this topic is the only way to slow it down, it will never be eliminated.


P.S.
Our licensing board handed out 2- $25,000 fines for unpermitted/unlicensed work this past Tuesday. That will get attention fast. They also stopped the job until a licensed electrician files the work. The builder may have learned his lesson.

[powerslave]

Bring up another questions. What about licensed guys that don't pull permits?

No difference. The law is the law.


The thing is, if one has spent the time and money to get licensed and insured and paid all the municipal fees and bonds to work in the different towns, cities, and villages in ones area why take a chance and not get a permit?

[Pierre C Belarge]

no difference. The law is the law.


The thing is, if one has spent the time and money to get licensed and insured and paid all the municipal fees and bonds to work in the different towns, cities, and villages in ones area why take a chance and not get a permit?



money!!! ;)

[augie47]

talk about touchy :D The great State of TN advises the inspectors that if they have no permit they can not go on the property. So, if we see some jack-leg stringing wire we wave and drive on. In essence the only inspection is on contractors who obey the rules and pull permits or on new construction where there is no power and POCO requires inspections before hooking those up.

[Minuteman]

No that way here Augie. They go about any where the want. But there is still a lot of unpermitted work that goes on. Fines get handed out, but I compete against it all the time.

[KevinVost]

Our AHJ has established an enforcement division. They investigate any complaints made about work with out permits. Our field inspectors have been instructed to stop at any site, any time, to check permits (an inspection request is not needed to have the inspector stop, since most inspectors have an area they inspect and are fimiliar with, most know the new jobs and will check up on the job once they see work going on). To that end, our administrative code was written with a section called "Right of Entry", which allows inspectors to enter any property, anytime, to perform thier job, or to investigate complaints or unsafe conditions (if they are visable from public view) which is the cause to enter.

[Minuteman]

Kevin, do y'all have an Army of inspectors?

[480sparky]

talk about touchy :D The great State of TN advises the inspectors that if they have no permit they can not go on the property. .........

So if I rob a bank in Tennessee with an unregistered gun, the cops can't enter the bank to arrest me?:grin:

[KevinVost]

Kevin, do y'all have an Army of inspectors?

Not an army, but we have a total of 120 +/- a few, but we cover several hundered (maybe thouseand) square miles. Our average ticket load right now is about 800 inspections per day, on the low side for us, on the high side we have had 4000 inspections in one day (back in 2004). Vegas is BIG!

[Pierre C Belarge]

Our AHJ has established an enforcement division. They investigate any complaints made about work with out permits. Our field inspectors have been instructed to stop at any site, any time, to check permits (an inspection request is not needed to have the inspector stop, since most inspectors have an area they inspect and are fimiliar with, most know the new jobs and will check up on the job once they see work going on). To that end, our administrative code was written with a section called "Right of Entry", which allows inspectors to enter any property, anytime, to perform thier job, or to investigate complaints or unsafe conditions (if they are visable from public view) which is the cause to enter.


I know each State has their own laws which pertain to this issue.

In NYS, the law deals with this in 2 ways.

1. Public property. If the work or violation is visible and is deemed a life or health threatening issue, a stop work order or violation can be issued. One had better be sure of what he/she is issuing, as the consequences could be pretty bad for the official if he is wrong.

2. Private property. Without permission from the property owner to enter the property, it would be considered trespassing for any inspector, including a building inspector to enter the property.
Without the property owner's permission, a warrant would have to be issued. A judge will not issue a warrant unless he is totally convinced that the BO is absolutely sure there is a bonafide threat to life or limb.
This falls under the protection of privacy in NYS.

[Minuteman]

120 EI's or 120 total inspectors?

[KevinVost]

120 EI's or 120 total inspectors?

Total inspectors.

[Pierre C Belarge]

Not an army, but we have a total of 120 +/- a few, but we cover several hundered (maybe thouseand) square miles. Our average ticket load right now is about 800 inspections per day, on the low side for us, on the high side we have had 4000 inspections in one day (back in 2004). Vegas is BIG!

WOW!!!
I would hate to see the paperwork for your year....:grin:

Does the statement " what gets installed in vegas, gets inspected soon" apply?


Your office does on average about 40,000 inspections per year...that is alot, considering the type of work performed, you guys must not have much time to breath.

[KevinVost]

I know each State has their own laws which pertain to this issue.

In NYS, the law deals with this in 2 ways.

1. Public property. If the work or violation is visible and is deemed a life or health threatening issue, a stop work order or violation can be issued. One had better be sure of what he/she is issuing, as the consequences could be pretty bad for the official if he is wrong.

2. Private property. Without permission from the property owner to enter the property, it would be considered trespassing for any inspector, including a building inspector to enter the property.
Without the property owner's permission, a warrant would have to be issued. A judge will not issue a warrant unless he is totally convinced that the BO is absolutely sure there is a bonafide threat to life or limb.
This falls under the protection of privacy in NYS.

Usually we issue a Notice of Violation for work without permit when we find it,(like your citation), a stop work order must come from the BO, after a phone call from the inspector, through our chain of command.

On the two issues you've listed, we have laws to the same effect, so our inspectors will usually walk up to the door and attempt to contact the HO or business owner (ring the bell) to get the story and permission to enter. If there is a life safety issue the department has legal recourse to gain entry much like you described, however most places I've stopped have allowed me entry and the matter usually gets resolved without any conflicts :D.

[KevinVost]

WOW!!!
I would hate to see the paperwork for your year....:grin:

Does the statement " what gets installed in vegas, gets inspected soon" apply?


Your office does on average about 40,000 inspections per year...that is alot, considering the type of work performed, you guys must not have much time to breath.

Yeah, we do alot of paperwork. Our inspection system allows you to call or request on line, for inspection up to 3:00am the same moring you want it and get the inspection that day.

As far as right now, we have some breathing room, in 2004 the department issued over 50000 permits, last year we issued just under 30000, and this year looks like it will be way less than last year. (If we stay at 700 inspections per day for the year, we would have about 700x240 (avaerage days in a work year)=168000 single inspections per year).

[Pierre C Belarge]

Kevin
Is your department on computers for inspections, with field tablets to enter the info?

[KevinVost]

Kevin
Is your department on computers for inspections, with field tablets to enter the info?

Yeah, you request an inspection, input the permit #, choose the inspection wanted (rough, final, framing etc...) hit enter and your done. Real easy and convienant for the contractors.

No field tablets yet, we hear they are working on a PDA type device for the system, but with the economy the way it is, who knows.

[peter d]

As far as right now, we have some breathing room, in 2004 the department issued over 50000 permits, last year we issued just under 30000, and this year looks like it will be way less than last year. (If we stay at 700 inspections per day for the year, we would have about 700x240 (avaerage days in a work year)=168000 single inspections per year).

I'm guessing the majority of those permits and inspections were for single family dwelling units?

[MrMilbank]

some ibew guy is buying homes in my town and remodeling them for use as rentals. doing all phases of const without permits, even electrical panel upgrades. i believe hes a lifelong resident, ect. small town stuff.. who would i notify to actually handle this?

[infinity]

some ibew guy is buying homes in my town and remodeling them for use as rentals. doing all phases of const without permits, even electrical panel upgrades. i believe hes a lifelong resident, ect. small town stuff.. who would i notify to actually handle this?

Well, if permits are required for his work then I would contact the building department. What does the fact that he's ibew have to do with it?

[ibew441dc]

Well, if permits are required for his work then I would contact the building department. What does the fact that he's ibew have to do with it?

I think hes pointing out the fact that the IBEW guy will probably do an exceptionable job:wink::smile:

On a serious note we all live under the same sun..........and NOBODY that throws on tools and is required to abide by the law is exempt.

[MrMilbank]

he doesnt have a license, hes a union electrician working outside of the union. its just wrong.

[don_resqcapt19]

To that end, our administrative code was written with a section called "Right of Entry", which allows inspectors to enter any property, anytime, to perform thier job, or to investigate complaints or unsafe conditions (if they are visable from public view) which is the cause to enter.
That would never pass constitutional muster if someone took it to court based on the 4th Amendment. There are Supreme Court cases that have ruled on the issue of administrative codes...the government agencies lost in the case law that currently covers this area. If the property owner tells you no, you can't enter than you will need a warrant and you need some type of probable cause to get one. There would be an exception for cases that could be immediately dangerous to life and health and is visible from public areas.

[K8MHZ]

That would never pass constitutional muster if someone took it to court based on the 4th Amendment. There are Supreme Court cases that have ruled on the issue of administrative codes...the government agencies lost in the case law that currently covers this area. If the property owner tells you no, you can't enter than you will need a warrant and you need some type of probable cause to get one. There would be an exception for cases that could be immediately dangerous to life and health and is visible from public areas.

Or not.

You be the judge. I watched as city ordered demolition crews tore down this house belonging to an 89 year old man.

http://blog.mlive.com/chronicle/2008/06/filling_a_void.html#more

[KevinVost]

I'm guessing the majority of those permits and inspections were for single family dwelling units?

Mostly, but the big casino's make a lot of inspections too.

That would never pass constitutional muster if someone took it to court based on the 4th Amendment. There are Supreme Court cases that have ruled on the issue of administrative codes...the government agencies lost in the case law that currently covers this area. If the property owner tells you no, you can't enter than you will need a warrant and you need some type of probable cause to get one. There would be an exception for cases that could be immediately dangerous to life and health and is visible from public areas.


Read my post #24, we try to not upset the public if possible, however not everyone is diplomatic about what we do, and that is on all sides, inspectors and HO and contractors.

[Rockyd]

he doesnt have a license, hes a union electrician working outside of the union. its just wrong.


How do you figure? Just because he is union, doesn't mean they own him! Lots of towns allow homeowners to GC on their places. If he owns a house, and does the paperwork, and passes inspections - more power to him!

I think you have a warped perception of the relationship that the union has to the member.

[Mr.Sparkle]

I recently went and looked at a job where a handyman ran the wires around a pool for a few post lights while he was there doing the new concrete patio around the pool. He used 14/2 NM and buried it about 6" under the ground where he needed to and poured the patio right over it where he didn't.

Due to the location of the lights and size of the patio I told the H.O. there is no easy fix, (there isn't) I disconnected the feed and will be going back to cut all the existing wiring I can get to out of the ground so there is no chance of ever using it again. This patio was done about 1.5 yrs ago and handyman is nowhere to be found apparently, he even took money for new iron railings and never came back.

I have his name on a piece of paper in my binder, just in case......

[mivey]

How do you figure? Just because he is union, doesn't mean they own him! Lots of towns allow homeowners to GC on their places. If he owns a house, and does the paperwork, and passes inspections - more power to him!

I think you have a warped perception of the relationship that the union has to the member.Maybe not warped but just a limited amount of knowledge?

I would have thought, based on my very limited union experience, they might have some guidelines as to who should work on what and under what conditions, in order to protect the member's interests.

I don't want the thread closed because of bad union topic issues, but is there a link you can provide that would clarify the relationship? I would appreciate the info.

As for links: What are the issues with union topics that causes some threads to get closed? I haven't paid a whole lot of attention to it, but can someone help me find a link showing the forum policy violations concerning unions that should be avoided?

[ericsherman37]

he doesnt have a license, hes a union electrician working outside of the union. its just wrong.

I'm an IBEW member but I'm not going to call the hall for some help when I rewire something at my own house. My wife's pretty good at helping me fish wires down the wall.

[nhfire77]

That would never pass constitutional muster if someone took it to court based on the 4th Amendment. There are Supreme Court cases that have ruled on the issue of administrative codes...the government agencies lost in the case law that currently covers this area. If the property owner tells you no, you can't enter than you will need a warrant and you need some type of probable cause to get one. There would be an exception for cases that could be immediately dangerous to life and health and is visible from public areas.

Exactly, and in certain states you can shoot the guy for trespassing, no questions asked, just a lot of paperwork.

The only exception would be if you saw something that was immediately dangerous to life and health. And if that was at my home, I would fight that tooth and nail.

I am not a gun nut, but, you have the right to defend yourself and your properly, that includes against the unlawful administrative search and seizure.

[480sparky]

............As for links: What are the issues with union topics that causes some threads to get closed? I haven't paid a whole lot of attention to it, but can someone help me find a link showing the forum policy violations concerning unions that should be avoided?


Does this (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=652352&postcount=33) trip your trigger?

[ericsherman37]

I am not a gun nut, but, you have the right to defend yourself and your properly, that includes against the unlawful administrative search and seizure.

Same here. But you still have to be prepared to fight off those Homeland Security zombies sooner or later. :D

[nhfire77]

I'm an IBEW member but I'm not going to call the hall for some help when I rewire something at my own house. My wife's pretty good at helping me fish wires down the wall.

I agree, I am union man myself (not electrical related) Union employees should be doing union work. You are not supposed to get a side job and take work away from others, in your trade or others.

However, that does not apply to your home. If, you are buying houses, renovating and renting them, you still own them in your name, that's technically not a side job and I have no problem with that.

Doing so without permits is another issue, I am not addressing here.

[nhfire77]

Same here. But you still have to be prepared to fight off those Homeland Security zombies sooner or later. :D


You are correct sir!

[nhfire77]

Our AHJ has established an enforcement division. They investigate any complaints made about work with out permits. Our field inspectors have been instructed to stop at any site, any time, to check permits (an inspection request is not needed to have the inspector stop, since most inspectors have an area they inspect and are fimiliar with, most know the new jobs and will check up on the job once they see work going on). To that end, our administrative code was written with a section called "Right of Entry", which allows inspectors to enter any property, anytime, to perform thier job, or to investigate complaints or unsafe conditions (if they are visable from public view) which is the cause to enter.

I would like to follow up on this, after rereading it, it makes me SICK to think that someone thought this would be reasonable and constitutional.

(Kevin, unless you wrote this code, I am not directing my opinion at you)

The city/town/county lawyers either never read this or are stupid.

Most cities around here have a full legal department and they run this stuff by them first. Unless it was a town warrant/citizen petition, it which case the citizens are stupid, and I leave it at that.

[Rockyd]

I'm IBEW, and would hate to see someone raising issues with me for bettering the community, because I can work on my own stuff, providing I'm with in the law.

If the person is that upset, perhaps he can PM me, and I will be happy to let him know where the bear goes in the woods.

I would hate to see the thread closed for a topic that should be out in the open.

[wawireguy]

I'd stop short at educating the homeowner about at least pulling a permit themselves and having it inspected. If there's ever a fire and no inspection was done it could go poorly for the homeowner. My next question would be do you police your fellow EC's? I have to be honest I'm more concerned with the state of the lack of quality in contractors work than I am with some handyman wiring something up. I think the homeowner is doing themselves a disservice by hiring a non-professional to do a electrical install but it's their castle..

[Rockyd]

Agree with that! Contractors should fire hacks! When you hire as a journeyman, you are already making the claim that you know how to do the work, otherwise your just hiring on as a helper. There is a reason one should "let the ink dry on their ticket", for a couple of years before they move into foreman, and supervision jobs. One-day journeyman, turning out to run work the next day normally only works where they do mass reptition (install).

[mivey]

Does this (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=652352&postcount=33) trip your trigger?Doesn't look so complicated. I guess I was reading too much into some of the comments I see from time to time.

I guess the question is: As a union member, is there a code of conduct you have agreed to follow that would preclude the kind of work in post #29?

In particular, this question:What does the fact that he's ibew have to do with it?should have an answer. Most organizations have a code of conduct or something that its members agree to abide by. If the union is trying to hold its members to a higher standard, then an IBEW member working without permits, etc, would be worse than a non-union guy, because he has also adding breaking his IBEW oath to his list of bad behavior.

[480sparky]

.........I guess the question is: As a union member, is there a code of conduct you have agreed to follow that would preclude the kind of work in post #29?...........

No. I'm neither union or a union electrician.

[mivey]

No. I'm neither union or a union electrician.I meant the "you" to be directed to union members. I forgot I had just finished quoting you (meaning 480sparky) on the forum policy thing.

[ibew441dc]

he doesnt have a license, hes a union electrician working outside of the union. its just wrong.

You, or anyone who is not in the IBEW, has no say in what is right or wrong for our members to do. You can voice your opinion, but it means nothing.:smile:

I'll stick to my original statement

"NOBODY that throws on tools and is required to abide by the law is exempt."

[don_resqcapt19]

Or not.

You be the judge. I watched as city ordered demolition crews tore down this house belonging to an 89 year old man.

http://blog.mlive.com/chronicle/2008/06/filling_a_void.html#more
If there was a court order that is different.
My point was that in the absence of a permit (the permit gives the inspector the right of entry without an warrant) an inspector cannot come onto the property if the owner/occupant says he can't...unless the inspector has a warrant.

[ibew441dc]

I'm IBEW, and would hate to see someone raising issues with me for bettering the community, because I can work on my own stuff, providing I'm with in the law.

I can't agree with you more!:smile:


I would hate to see the thread closed for a topic that should be out in the open.

I'm with ya on that one too!:smile:

[zbang]

I think y'all are missing the point. Just someone owning a house doesn't make him the homeowner unless he actually lives there (or is planning to). If he's rehab-ing it to rent, it's not his home, especially if he's obviously living elsewhere.

Either way, ya still need the permits, and probably the license.

[480sparky]

I think y'all are missing the point. Just someone owning a house doesn't make him the homeowner unless he actually lives there (or is planning to). If he's rehab-ing it to rent, it's not his home, especially if he's obviously living elsewhere.

Either way, ya still need the permits, and probably the license.

Exactly. In Iowa, you must have filed for a Homestead exemption in order to consider it your home. And you can only have one exemption. And you must live there a year to get it.

[K8MHZ]

In rural / small town Michigan, if your pipe run looks like jewelry, the inspector seldom, if ever, looks at anything else. They are just happy to have a good job done so they don't have to get into a confrontation with a hack which many times turns ugly.

In Michigan cities, however, the rules are much more strict.

State laws have become stricter too. No more 'helpers' allowed. All electrical workers must either be apprenti, journey folk or masters with a state issued card to prove it. Apprenti must be enrolled in a state approved school. J-men to apprenti ratios are now being enforced. No more jobs with 15 apprenti and 1 journeyman.

Home Depot has upped it's standards as well, requiring the manager of the electrical dept. to be a master electrician. Our local HD has a great one, Larry, a former inspector who still teaches code class. Because of Larry I spend a lot of money at HD. Very seldom do I go there and my usual chat with Larry fails to teach me something. I have tried my best to get his goat and so far, no go(at). :grin:

[jrannis]

So if I rob a bank in Tennessee with an unregistered gun, the cops can't enter the bank to arrest me?:grin:

No, because we do not have "gun Registration" in this Country.

[jrannis]

This is a guy that took the time to address the unlicensed people advertising on CL.
I hope everyone reads it, then contacts the poster to see if its OK to post in your local CL.

http://miami.craigslist.org/brw/sks/1172914768.html

[Dolfan]

This is a guy that took the time to address the unlicensed people advertising on CL.
I hope everyone reads it, then contacts the poster to see if its OK to post in your local CL.

http://miami.craigslist.org/brw/sks/1172914768.html

Thats good, the only problem I have is the comparison of an ER with a EC.

[jrannis]

Thats good, the only problem I have is the comparison of an ER with a EC.

Im not quite sure what you are getting at?
Maybe when he used the term "better yet"?

Could be that you don't hassled as much as an EC. I do consider myself better off with an EC, than when I had my ER, for the type of work I do.

[Dolfan]

Im not quite sure what you are getting at?
Maybe when he used the term "better yet"?

Could be that you don't hassled as much as an EC. I do consider myself better off with an EC, than when I had my ER, for the type of work I do.

I'm just saying that, I know of EC who are out of business and ER who are going strong. The customer doesn't care about that screwed up classification. Depending on the circumstances of the kind of work you want, having a EC license in not the end all. Comparing the quality of one shop to another with the type of licence is stupid. You know that Dade County is the size of some states in population and all that is needed to do electrical work is a ER licence.

[Teaspoon]

talk about touchy :D The great State of TN advises the inspectors that if they have no permit they can not go on the property. So, if we see some jack-leg stringing wire we wave and drive on. In essence the only inspection is on contractors who obey the rules and pull permits or on new construction where there is no power and POCO requires inspections before hooking those up.

I agree this Is not in the best interest of home owners in the State of Tennessee. Tennessee is home to me and I make my living doing Electrical work .But we are making progress with electrical safety. I will admit that much needs to be done to improve safety in the homes in our state.
A much needed crack down on unlicensed work would be a great help.
We need stiffer fines and penalties on those doing this unlawful work.
There should also be some way of making home owners aware of the dangers
of this boot leg work. And them assumeing responsiability for their own well being.

[Rockyd]

Exactly. In Iowa, you must have filed for a Homestead exemption in order to consider it your home. And you can only have one exemption. And you must live there a year to get it.


See?

This is where local government is far better than "big brother" ( the government that governs least, governs best). Evidently the state had a problem with "flippers", and they moved to fix it. As long as a small time, non corporate person, is stable to that community, is helping, rather than hindering the town, city, or county.

If you think, for one moment, that through the power of law, your going to foist your business upon me, take a hike. If your that good, everyone will know who you are, and will be calling you. It's called an established reputation, and we all know that "word of mouth" is priceless advertising.



" If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands that which feed you. May your chain be set lightly upon you and posterity forget ye were our countrymen."


Sam Adams

[nhfire77]

I think y'all are missing the point. Just someone owning a house doesn't make him the homeowner unless he actually lives there (or is planning to). If he's rehab-ing it to rent, it's not his home, especially if he's obviously living elsewhere.

Either way, ya still need the permits, and probably the license.

Excuse me, I own rental property, before its rented and no tenants are in it, its mine. I am the homeowner. I don't have to live there to make it mine. I have never rented it and the deed is in my name.

Even if I am planning on renting it, I haven't yet and you cannot assume what I am planning on doing with it. I may as well be fixing it up and moving my wife in(without me)!!!!!

I can tell the all the different inspectors I am moving in when its done, and that could be true. Then I change my mind. It my right, its mine. Once the EI has passed and signed the card, and then I change my mind, that does not invalidate the passing inspection. Unless there is some crazy local law requiring all the HO work be ripped out and redone by an EC. In which case, I would not own property there. I would take my money somewhere else.

Once its rented and tenants have moved in, then, by law its different. I cannot perform electrical work in my tenants unit, or if I am preparing to rent it for a second time, but, initially, its mine. If, the homeowner is allowed to get a permit, then you can do all the work.

Once its been rented, and you plan on having new tenants in, then it changes.

[PetrosA]

As someone who works in a region where lots of homes have been worked on by the homeowners, I have to say I don't think ANYONE should be allowed to do electrical, carpentry or other building work unless they can prove they have the qualifications to do so and meet all the local laws. We're on a job right now where the homeowner added a second floor addition himself 10 years ago, and there are whole sections of roof without support, wiring done lord-knows-how, etc. Now, after a divorce, the second floor is finally getting done, and thankfully the weekend warrior didn't get drywall up so we can fix things pretty easily.

[nhfire77]

As someone who works in a region where lots of homes have been worked on by the homeowners, I have to say I don't think ANYONE should be allowed to do electrical, carpentry or other building work unless they can prove they have the qualifications to do so and meet all the local laws. We're on a job right now where the homeowner added a second floor addition himself 10 years ago, and there are whole sections of roof without support, wiring done lord-knows-how, etc. Now, after a divorce, the second floor is finally getting done, and thankfully the weekend warrior didn't get drywall up so we can fix things pretty easily.

That's a slightly different issue. I think you should be able to any work you want, but it has to pass an inspection for safety. So, if, it was done unsafe, IMO, then that's not cool.

My previous post addresses a previous post that an IBEW guy was buying houses fixing them and renting them out.

[hillbilly]

See?

" If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands that which feed you. May your chain be set lightly upon you and posterity forget ye were our countrymen."

Sam Adams

Amen

steve

[zbang]

Excuse me, I own rental property, before its rented and no tenants are in it, its mine. I am the homeowner. I don't have to live there to make it mine. I have never rented it and the deed is in my name.

I don't know where you're coming from here, since I never said that it wasn't owned by/titled to you, I don't know about New Hampshire, but in many places "homeowner" means owner and occupant (as principal residence) of that property. In taxation, you can only claim one property at a time for a homeowner's exemption. (Rental condos may be treated differently.)

Even if I am planning on renting it, I haven't yet and you cannot assume what I am planning on doing with it. I may as well be fixing it up and moving my wife in(without me)!!!!!

True, and some codes seem to make exceptions for that, but if you live in one property, then buy another using a not-my-home loan, it's going to be pretty hard to convince anyone that it's not going to be rented. As I did say, you probably still need the permits, and might need to use a licensed contractor to do the work.

Either way, I'm not a lawyer and nhfire probably isn't either. This isn't legal advice. Obtain advice from a licensed professional if you really need it :D.

[MrMilbank]

I decided I'm not gonna get involved with ratting people out doing work without permits, i figure its gonna catch up with them or not and im not involved in any way. I just know why its important to get a permit even working on my own home. and when when i do work requiring a permit on someone elses home i am required to get a permit.

[petersonra]

I have no choice but to call on Monday and turn him in.
Actually, you made a choice to make the call. You have no general obligation to report these kind of things, short of some kind of local rule that requires you to rat people out in these circumstances.

I am not suggesting you made the wrong choice. just that you did indeed make a choice. Pretending otherwise is not being honest.

[charlietuna]

Years ago the local fire department began yearly inspections on commercial buildings and i was suprised that it created quite a bit of work in our area. And i believe local building inspections should have some type inspection to correct the big picture items especially obvious life safety items like landscape lighting and damaged parking lot equipment,etc.

[G0049]

Excuse me, I own rental property, before its rented and no tenants are in it, its mine. I am the homeowner. I don't have to live there to make it mine. I have never rented it and the deed is in my name.

Around here you could probably get away with that a time or two until they started to recognize you at the permit desk. Here's a couple of quotes from the permit request:

"Homeowners Affidavit
I hereby certify the electrical work described on this permit application shall be installed by myself in my own single family dwelling in which I am living or about to occupy. All work shall be installed in accordance with the State Electrical code and shall not be enclosed, covered up, or put into operation until it has been inspected and approved by the County Electrical Inspector. I will cooperate with the county electrical Inspector and assume the responsibility to arrange for necessary inspection."

And:

"APPLICANT SIGNATURE
Section 23A of the State Construction Code Act of 1972; 1972 PA 230, MCL 125.1523A, prohibits a person from conspiring to circumvent the licensing requirements of this state relating to persons who are to perform work on a residential building or a residential structure. Violators of Section 23A are subjected to civil fines."

The local EI also told me that, under a homeowners permit, the work has to be done by the homeowner. You can't hire someone else, even a licensed electrican or contractor, to work on it.

[brantmacga]

talk about touchy :D The great State of TN advises the inspectors that if they have no permit they can not go on the property. So, if we see some jack-leg stringing wire we wave and drive on. In essence the only inspection is on contractors who obey the rules and pull permits or on new construction where there is no power and POCO requires inspections before hooking those up.


Not here. We have the "Community Development Investigation Division".

The "Code Compliance Investigators" drive around looking for signs of construction work. They, along with all the inspectors, have laptops linked up to city hall so they can check to see if a permit has been pulled for the address. If not, they don't even knock; just walk right in and start writing citations. I would imagine that's completely illegal, but I guess no one has challenged them yet.

I'm told they catch most of the offenders on weekends, but I haven't verified that.

[cowboyjwc]

I would like to follow up on this, after rereading it, it makes me SICK to think that someone thought this would be reasonable and constitutional.

(Kevin, unless you wrote this code, I am not directing my opinion at you)

The city/town/county lawyers either never read this or are stupid.

Most cities around here have a full legal department and they run this stuff by them first. Unless it was a town warrant/citizen petition, it which case the citizens are stupid, and I leave it at that.

It's actually in Article 89 of the California Electrical Code, though our city did not adopt that Article. It used to be in the Uniform Administrative Code which we did adopt in whole.

[fondini]

amen+1!!!!!

[brian john]

What about illegal search and seizure, police need search warrants why should an inspector be any different. Did we give up our rights when Tesla, Westinghouse and Edison strung a few wires here and there.

[don_resqcapt19]

What about illegal search and seizure, police need search warrants why should an inspector be any different. Did we give up our rights when Tesla, Westinghouse and Edison strung a few wires here and there.
No we didn't. In the absence of a permit or an obvious life safety issue, the inspector needs permission or a warrant to enter the property. I understand that there are many areas that have laws that state otherwise, but they are unconstitutional and would be tossed out if anyone challenged them in court. Often the challenge never happens because of the cost of litigation and the local authorities continue to violate people's rights.

[peter d]

No we didn't. In the absence of a permit or an obvious life safety issue, the inspector needs permission or a warrant to enter the property.

Just curious but how does a permit negate the need for a warrant? I would think that even with a permit, a warrant or permission would still be required.

[don_resqcapt19]

Just curious but how does a permit negate the need for a warrant? I would think that even with a permit, a warrant or permission would still be required.
The act of getting a permit is a permission for inspection in most cases.

[Pierre C Belarge]

In NYS, the only time an inspector can enter property without a warrant or permission is during a fire that is being battled by the fire department.
If the FD calls the inspector and requests them on the site, as long as the FD has not left the property, the inspector can enter the property without the warrent or permission.
Otherwise permission or a warrant are necessary.
There is one other way. If the rentor is there and provides uncoerced access, then the inspector can enter also, it would not be necessary to gain permission from the property owner. but the inspector can only inspect where the renter rents, no other portion of a building. I believe that falls under Title 318, bla bla bla of the State law. I will look that up later.

[charlietuna]

South Florida
Commercial businesses require an occupational license. Under this license is where the fire marshalls inspect mainly for life safety issues--lighting,exit fixture,building access,functioning fire alarm system and logs. Little by little the fire inspection exposed many electrical problems.

Then they created a "THIRTY YEAR" building inspection. As commercial buildings reached thirty years of age the owner was notified to get this inspection. And it required all the normal construction inspections-electrical-plumbing-mechanical-etc.. At this point these buildings were required to be brought up to the present building codes. And of course this meant major investments by the building's owner. The first time i got involved in one of these jobs, i was discussing it's purpose with as building official. He told me it was a tool to get older buildings knocked down!!!

[cowboyjwc]

In NYS, the only time an inspector can enter property without a warrant or permission is during a fire that is being battled by the fire department.
If the FD calls the inspector and requests them on the site, as long as the FD has not left the property, the inspector can enter the property without the warrent or permission.
Otherwise permission or a warrant are necessary.
There is one other way. If the rentor is there and provides uncoerced access, then the inspector can enter also, it would not be necessary to gain permission from the property owner. but the inspector can only inspect where the renter rents, no other portion of a building. I believe that falls under Title 318, bla bla bla of the State law. I will look that up later.

In CA if "anyone" lets you in (other than a minor) you may perform the inspection. I forget the actual leagal name, but it has to do with who ever let you in is believed to have control of the property.

[nhfire77]

Around here you could probably get away with that a time or two until they started to recognize you at the permit desk. Here's a couple of quotes from the permit request:

"Homeowners Affidavit
I hereby certify the electrical work described on this permit application shall be installed by myself in my own single family dwelling in which I am living or about to occupy. All work shall be installed in accordance with the State Electrical code and shall not be enclosed, covered up, or put into operation until it has been inspected and approved by the County Electrical Inspector. I will cooperate with the county electrical Inspector and assume the responsibility to arrange for necessary inspection."

And:

"APPLICANT SIGNATURE
Section 23A of the State Construction Code Act of 1972; 1972 PA 230, MCL 125.1523A, prohibits a person from conspiring to circumvent the licensing requirements of this state relating to persons who are to perform work on a residential building or a residential structure. Violators of Section 23A are subjected to civil fines."

The local EI also told me that, under a homeowners permit, the work has to be done by the homeowner. You can't hire someone else, even a licensed electrican or contractor, to work on it.


I don't see a conflict, I was "about to occupy' the home, then I changed my mind. I change my mind all the time, there was not malicious or subversive intent.

[nhfire77]

It's actually in Article 89 of the California Electrical Code, though our city did not adopt that Article. It used to be in the Uniform Administrative Code which we did adopt in whole.

That is code is awful. I never had a reason to dislike California, now I do, you can have it! I will keep my Property Rights TYVM.

[powerslave]

Actually, you made a choice to make the call. You have no general obligation to report these kind of things, short of some kind of local rule that requires you to rat people out in these circumstances.

I am not suggesting you made the wrong choice. just that you did indeed make a choice. Pretending otherwise is not being honest.

I didn't mean to touch a nerve by "ratting out" someone who is breaking the law. Please accept my apology.

But you're right, I guess I made the choice like I make the choice to follow the rest of the laws and city ordinances where I live. You may not make that choice. It is up to you.:smile:

[cowboyjwc]

That is code is awful. I never had a reason to dislike California, now I do, you can have it! I will keep my Property Rights TYVM.

I didn't say they couldn't still shoot you, I just said that we had right of entry. :D

[mivey]

I didn't say they couldn't still shoot you, I just said that we had right of entry. :DI guess the key is being let in.

If there are some soldier-of-fortune-wannabee inspectors that think a permit is like a no-knock 24/7 warrant, they must not plan to be around very long, because someone is eventually going to explain the Constitution to them in layman's terms.

I don't see a conflict, I was "about to occupy' the home, then I changed my mind. I change my mind all the time, there was not malicious or subversive intent.IMO, as long as the local authority doesn't really care too much (true in a lot of places), they will let people get away with playing games. When they train the scope on this type of activity, the games will stop.

[resistance]

Gee. I can't image why you would feel bad about turning someone in for breaking the law. I mean, what would the alternative be?































































http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Housefire.jpg

Oh.......... right. That! I forgot.



So true!! :rolleyes::rolleyes: