Radient ceiling heat...... sigh.

[Fulthrotl]

ok. i had a stupid attack, and said i'd do it. that being said, what i said i'd do
was to put a couple dozen can lights in a 2 bedroom condo.

it was built during the great socal edison "gold medallion" all electric home
binge of the 1960's.

110v. radient ceiling heat in all the rooms. buttom board lid, radiant cable
attached to that, and covered with half an inch of plaster, with cottage cheese
on top of that. see attached photo.

after the lids are scraped, i've gotta locate the heating cables embedded
in the plaster, preferably not by cutting them with a 5" holesaw. :-(

first thought was to turn them on, and look for them with a stud finder that
picks up voltage. second thought was to turn them on and look for them with
a infrared camera, which i don't have.

how would you guys suggest finding them? they all work at this point.
i turned them on and amprobed the feeders... the room in the photo draws
17 amps when on.... 12' x 12' room.

thanks for any suggestions.....

and next time i agree, for any price, to remove the cottage cheese, just
shoot me, ok? i'm getting my hourly rate to do it, and work is work, right?

i keep saying that.... over and over..... i tested the stuff, and at least it
doesn't contain the "A" word.


randy

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr66/FulThrotl/LBceiling.jpg

[peter d]

SoCal Edison certainly has some odd voltages - 110 volts is a bit strange. :D

But seriously, do they even need this heat? Perhaps you can sell them some baseboard heaters in the process?

I can tell you from experience that it is totally worthless. I have nixed this heating twice - once I got a call from the neighbors who complained about a $600 electric bill and wondered why they kept the stat up and the room never got warm. The solution was to kill the radiant and replace it with a baseboard heater - problem solved. The other was at my parents house. I disconnected the heat and they had a plumber put in hydronic baseboard.

[celtic]

Use a spray bottle with some water...crank up the heat..the dry spots are the "no fly zone".

[electricmanscott]

MMMM asbestos....:cool:

[ericsherman37]

Radiant ceiling heat sucks! We did a service call a while back to put in a new light outside of someone's bedroom closet... the switch location was near the room's thermostat but we never thought "Gee I don't see a heater in here anywhere." So I went to cut a hole out of the ceiling for the can and wound up hacking into one of those confounded ceiling heat cables.

So we wound up putting in a new wall heater that day too :D

[Dennis Alwon]

Get an infrared camera and see what's up. I doubt you will be able to install cans in those ceiling. The spacing of the wires won't allow it. I would walk on this job.

[celtic]

MMMM asbestos....:cool:

What "A" word do you think he was talking about here?


..... i tested the stuff, and at least it doesn't contain the "A" word.

[qcroanoke]

Get an infrared camera and see what's up. I doubt you will be able to install cans in those ceiling. The spacing of the wires won't allow it. I would walk on this job.

Yep, Dennis hit it, the spacing will never allow it.

[Fulthrotl]

MMMM asbestos....:cool:

no asbestos. had it checked. have licensed industrial hygienist on tap.
$40.... 10 minutes, yes, or no.

for when i just want the answer without the formal survey.... ;-)
you can't tell without a microscope, and someone who knows what they are
doing.

the squirt bottle was suggested by a friend of mine who plasters and does
drywall finishing.... but the plaster's so porous that it probably won't work.
the whole ceiling makes the water disappear in about a minute. i was also
a bit concerned about soaking 40 year old cable down with water... i know
it should not make a difference, but i really don't want to find out.... :-(

that leaves IR, and stud finder with electrical detect. no access above ceiling.

ideally, an IR that does photo superimposed with IR would be best.. shoot the
ceiling, lay out the cable with thumbtacks and form string, shoot it again
to be sure, and then it's just dealing with the ceiling joists.....

i'm still open to suggestions.... who's got the magic bullet? :-)
thanks again...


randy

[Fulthrotl]

Yep, Dennis hit it, the spacing will never allow it.

you guys may be right. i've seen photos from the old days, and it looked
like 16" or so spacing between cables.... time will tell.....

[JWCELECTRIC]

Scrape the recess and suggest wall sconce lights to your client and save yourself a day of finding the heating equipment buries in plaster

[thetacon]

as other people have stated you will not have good luck trying to cut in between the wires of ceiling heat. here in oregon there is lot of old homes with ceiling heat. what I have found works best is to elimenate the ceiling heat altogether but reuse the ckt and tstat to feed a new heater. if Access is an issue in the room the easiest and simplest soulution is to install a cadet C series heater or for a little more money a pick a watt heater. the pick a watts are a quieter than the c series but either works just fine. Install it in the same stud bay as the tstat,as long as there is a full stud bay there this one of the easiest remodel projects going when you drop out of the stat with your feed you will be fishing it into a 8"x10" hole and the heater can screws right on to the stud. As far as power is concerned the 750 watt will be fine for a room that size in California and it only draws 3.1 amps (240 volt) but if needed a 1500 watt will fit in the same size rough in can.

[Short.Circuit]

i work maintenance on a friend's apts. built c 1960. the ceiling radiant is going out in all the units. I've been installing cadet wall heater below the thermostats & deleting the wires going up to the old heat crap... a bad idea in the 1st place...bleh

[Fulthrotl]

as other people have stated you will not have good luck trying to cut in between the wires of ceiling heat. here in oregon there is lot of old homes with ceiling heat. what I have found works best is to elimenate the ceiling heat altogether but reuse the ckt and tstat to feed a new heater. if Access is an issue in the room the easiest and simplest soulution is to install a cadet C series heater or for a little more money a pick a watt heater. the pick a watts are a quieter than the c series but either works just fine. Install it in the same stud bay as the tstat,as long as there is a full stud bay there this one of the easiest remodel projects going when you drop out of the stat with your feed you will be fishing it into a 8"x10" hole and the heater can screws right on to the stud. As far as power is concerned the 750 watt will be fine for a room that size in California and it only draws 3.1 amps (240 volt) but if needed a 1500 watt will fit in the same size rough in can.

thank you for this... i'll suggest it to the homeowner........

[ohm]

Just for grins..you might try mapping the heat tapes with a cheap hand held IR sensor. Otherwise, a heater below the T-stat sounds like a great solution.

You could also drop down in that cavity and feed some baseboard heaters, like others have suggested.

[muckusmc]

Back in the 60's, we installed alot of ceiling cable heat - If I remember right, the spacing between the runs of cable worked out to be between 1 and 2 inches, with 6" around any lighting outlets. No way would I try to put cans into a ceiling with this type of heat.

[Karl H]

I helped a buddy of mine replace a cracked plaster ceiling in his condo here
in San Diego with drywall. The ceiling had radient heat that had long since
been abandoned. The wires were about 3 inches apart, Impossible to
cut-in a can.

[wireguru]

Well, if you are doing it hourly crank up the A/C and take your time doing a good job :D

Seriously though, just tell the HO if they really want the recessed lights the ceiling heat needs to go. Or if they really want both you can tear out the entire ceiling and redo it. Cash up front.

[GeorgeB]

Back in the 60's, we installed a lot of ceiling cable heat - If I remember right, the spacing between the runs of cable worked out to be between 1 and 2 inches, with 6" around any lighting outlets. No way would I try to put cans into a ceiling with this type of heat.That matches my memory of daddy's house built in 1961/1962. They had a heat pump (OH the ductwork in a 2 story, slab-on-grade house) added and killed the resistance. I'd not only forget the cans, I'd forget adding any box either.

Borrow an IR scanner and take a look just for support.

[blueheels2]

If you ever stay in the guest houses at the Von Trapp Lodge in Stowe VT (these are below the main lodge) they all have this ceiling heat crap. We had a job there replacing old t12 flour. in the bathroom with t8's. My buddy was pulling one down that was mounted with toggle bolts. We could see it arcing the whole time. I guess when they installed the light they hit a cable.

[electricmanscott]

What "A" word do you think he was talking about here?


Asparagus? :confused:
In my defense the original post is very difficult to read. Hint: SHIFT KEY ;) :D

[electricmanscott]

as other people have stated you will not have good luck trying to cut in between the wires of ceiling heat. here in oregon there is lot of old homes with ceiling heat. what I have found works best is to elimenate the ceiling heat altogether but reuse the ckt and tstat to feed a new heater. if Access is an issue in the room the easiest and simplest soulution is to install a cadet C series heater or for a little more money a pick a watt heater. the pick a watts are a quieter than the c series but either works just fine. Install it in the same stud bay as the tstat,as long as there is a full stud bay there this one of the easiest remodel projects going when you drop out of the stat with your feed you will be fishing it into a 8"x10" hole and the heater can screws right on to the stud. As far as power is concerned the 750 watt will be fine for a room that size in California and it only draws 3.1 amps (240 volt) but if needed a 1500 watt will fit in the same size rough in can.


I would not want to have a fan forced heater in a living space other than maybe a bathroom or kitchen. The noise would be very annoying.

[thetacon]

I would not want to have a fan forced heater in a living space other than maybe a bathroom or kitchen. The noise would be very annoying.

if the home does not have a furnace it is by far the most common type of heating you run into out here. the noise is not that bad on the standartd c series, but if you pay for the more expensive style they have a squirrel cage motor in them and you can not hear them at all while they are running.... at least i can't after years of working with power tools

[electricmanscott]

if the home does not have a furnace it is by far the most common type of heating you run into out here. the noise is not that bad on the standartd c series, but if you pay for the more expensive style they have a squirrel cage motor in them and you can not hear them at all while they are running.... at least i can't after years of working with power tools

How often does the heat get used in your area?

[Karl H]

How often does the heat get used in your area?

It gets in the 40's here in the winter at night. Remember, it is in the 70's during the day so a 30 degree shift in climate at night is quite chilly
to us.

[peter d]

It gets in the 40's here in the winter at night. Remember, it is in the 70's during the day so a 30 degree shift in climate at night is quite chilly
to us.


Sissies. :roll: :D

[ericsherman37]

Here's a question.. if, hypothetically, the cans managed to go in just fine, would you have to take in to consideration the increased ambient temperature that would likely be encountered in the ceiling space for whatever wire ampacity you fed the cans with?

[Fulthrotl]

How often does the heat get used in your area?

when it gets cold.... say about 67 degrees.... :-p

wire spacing on this unit in the ceilings is very neat.... about 4" on center.
y'all were right.....

:-(

customer is not thrilled. we will be discussing options today.

[Fulthrotl]

Here's a question.. if, hypothetically, the cans managed to go in just fine, would you have to take in to consideration the increased ambient temperature that would likely be encountered in the ceiling space for whatever wire ampacity you fed the cans with?

thhn should be sufficient.... all the wiring in this condo is emt. ;-)

[wireguru]

could you use PAR20 cans, carefully chip out enough plaster to be able to push the cables apart enough to make a gap for the can, fix the plaster, then get the entire ceiling skimmed when youre done?

[muckusmc]

could you use PAR20 cans, carefully chip out enough plaster to be able to push the cables apart enough to make a gap for the can, fix the plaster, then get the entire ceiling skimmed when youre done?

That would be a violation - manufacturers spec 6" around any cans or boxes.
I seriously doubt there would be enough wire to push out that far.

[Karl H]

Sissies. :roll: :D

When it's 80 degrees and your standing in a pool of sweat
I'm going to reverse your comment. :D:D

[wireguru]

That would be a violation - manufacturers spec 6" around any cans or boxes.
I seriously doubt there would be enough wire to push out that far.

yeah that wouldnt work. I figured if he needed an inch or two to cram a can in it might be possible, but with 6in clearance -no way