woul you rewire this ??? or not ???

[rt66electric]

Went to a house and found ahot-tub wired like this--- from the main panel a 2p 50 breaker feeding with a 8-2 romex( through the attic and then to exterior wall then, sleeved in pvc down to a spa panel). The hot tub requires (1) 2p 20amp and (1) 2p 30amp circuit.. There is no neutral wire or additional ground rod!!!! Should I repull w/ 6-3 seperate the neutal/ground or do as my other journymal suggests and use the romex grd as a neutral and isolate the ground by driving a ground rod???? or put it back the way I found it??? GOTTA-GO play baseball w/youngen DENNIS

[electricmanscott]

Spa panel feed needs insulated grounded and grounding conductors in conduit. Romex will not satisfy this requrement.

Ground rod would not accomplish anything.

Probably more issues to be addressed with this install.

[ericsherman37]

I don't know where the idea comes from that driving a ground rod and running a wire to it from your equipment constitutes "equipment grounding."

That's not what ground rods are for, as far as I know.

If the hot tub specifies what circuits it needs, then those are what circuits it needs.

I'm an apprentice, and I've worked with journeymen of all different stripes and not one of them has ever told me to "use the grounding conductor as a neutral" or to "drive a ground rod to ground that equipment." The equipment grounding conductor(s) and neutral conductor(s) need to be run with the rest of the circuit(s). Driving a ground rod and bonding it to the hot tub is not going to facilitate the operation of an overcurrent device.

[mistabass]

What about art. 680.42-c

[LarryFine]

Should I repull w/ 6-3 seperate the neutal/ground or do as my other journymal suggests and use the romex grd as a neutral and isolate the ground by driving a ground rod????
Absolutely do the former, NOT the latter! The rod would be next to useless. And, remember, no NM cable (or its conductors) outdoors.

There must be separate neutral and grounding conductors if the tub has any neutral connection, which I'm sure the 20a circuit has.

[K8MHZ]

I suppose a GFCI would be out of the question.....

I am at about a 50/50 rate for getting or losing hot tub wiring jobs. For some reason people don't want things done right if it costs money. I won't fudge one bit on a wet location job and really don't fret about losing any so I pretty much give them a 'take it or leave it' scenario. If they take it then I want it to be safe enough for my own family to be in.

[LarryFine]

I suppose a GFCI would be out of the question.....Maybe, but it's a must. I missed that it was missing.

The worst thing I ever did for a hot-tub job was using UF cable outside.

[ceb58]

Went to a house and found ahot-tub wired like this--- from the main panel a 2p 50 breaker feeding with a 8-2 romex( through the attic and then to exterior wall then, sleeved in pvc down to a spa panel). The hot tub requires (1) 2p 20amp and (1) 2p 30amp circuit.. There is no neutral wire or additional ground rod!!!! Should I repull w/ 6-3 seperate the neutal/ground or do as my other journymal suggests and use the romex grd as a neutral and isolate the ground by driving a ground rod???? or put it back the way I found it??? GOTTA-GO play baseball w/youngen DENNIS

Ask he journymal why he thinks you can use a bare wire for the neutral:-?

[PCN]

With all due respect rt66, you should never take any electrical advice from your "other" journeyman again.

[TOOL_5150]

I'll rewire it, How much will you pay me? :D


~Matt

[RJohnsonMasterElectrician]

What about art. 680.42-c

I'm with you, I have used many a feet of 6-3 romex for hot tub wiring. I would re run a 6-3 from panel to spa box. Once it leaves the house change over to the conduit.
One of two ways.
1. Change over to conduit with FA and romex connector. Strip off outer covering of romex and go to spa box.
2. Run romex into J-Box and then change over to THHN in conduit and go to spa box.

I'm assuming the Hot tub box breaks down the circuits to what it is requiring.

[bradleyelectric]

I'm with you, I have used many a feet of 6-3 romex for hot tub wiring. I would re run a 6-3 from panel to spa box. Once it leaves the house change over to the conduit.
One of two ways.
1. Change over to conduit with FA and romex connector. Strip off outer covering of romex and go to spa box.
2. Run romex into J-Box and then change over to THHN in conduit and go to spa box.

I'm assuming the Hot tub box breaks down the circuits to what it is requiring.

Do you understand that you would have a violation if this installation was outdoors?

[rt66electric]

Thank you for your quick replies. I was leaning to complete rewire, similar to post #11, but I needed some reassurance. I going to print this thread out totry to sell to H.O. thanks again ---DENNIS

[TOOL_5150]

Thank you for your quick replies. I was leaning to complete rewire, similar to post #11, but I needed some reassurance. I going to print this thread out totry to sell to H.O. thanks again ---DENNIS

on post 11, dont do the first option - thats hack work. Outside conduits need wire rated for outdoor use - THWN


~Matt

[brantmacga]

There must be separate neutral and grounding conductors if the tub has any neutral connection, which I'm sure the 20a circuit has.

sounds like a hot springs setup; the 30A GFCI circuit gets the neutral.

[RJohnsonMasterElectrician]

on post 11, dont do the first option - thats hack work. Outside conduits need wire rated for outdoor use - thwn


~matt
huh thats funny never thought my self as a hack!

[RJohnsonMasterElectrician]

Do you understand that you would have a violation if this installation was outdoors?

Please inform me to make my self a better electrician than being called a names not needed (not by you bradley)

[ericsherman37]

Please inform me to make my self a better electrician than being called a names not needed (not by you bradley)

I'd think that running romex inside and then converting to conduit somewhere before you penetrate the wall would work out. Run the conduit straight out into a box or LB or whatever and go from there.

[brantmacga]

please inform me to make my self a better electrician than being called a names not needed (not by you bradley)


334.12(b)(4)

[wawireguy]

What your other "journeyman" was suggesting isn't remotely safe or even close to meeting code. If I were you I'd tell him you are doing it right or you're not working on that job. If someone gets killed down the road they will sue the pants off him and anyone else part of this project.

[LarryFine]

sounds like a hot springs setup; the 30A GFCI circuit gets the neutral.I thought the 30a circuit was for the heater element, and the 20a for motors, controls, and lighting.

[brantmacga]

I thought the 30a circuit was for the heater element, and the 20a for motors, controls, and lighting.




all the hot springs tubs i've done took the neutral from the 30A.

the controls may be connected with the heat. next time i do one i'll take another look at the schematic.

[bradleyelectric]

Please inform me to make my self a better electrician than being called a names not needed (not by you bradley)

Outside conduits need wire rated for outdoor use - THWN

I'd think that running romex inside and then converting to conduit somewhere before you penetrate the wall would work out. Run the conduit straight out into a box or LB or whatever and go from there.

This is not neccessary. It wouldn't be a problem to run romex into the back of a box than change to pipe w/ THWN at that point.

[Pierre C Belarge]

Using 680.42(C) is not permissible if the NM cable is supplying a feeder. It is permissible if one is supplying equipment only. Read the section carefully.
680.25 is the section to read if one is supplying a feeder.

What constitutes a feeder? Read the definition of feeder in Article 100.
So, if there are overcurrent devices between the wiring from the panel inside the building to the Spa Assembly, then you cannot take advantage of 680.42(C).

[growler]

Went to a house and found ahot-tub wired like this--- from the main panel a 2p 50 breaker feeding with a 8-2 romex( through the attic and then to exterior wall then, sleeved in pvc down to a spa panel). The hot tub requires (1) 2p 20amp and (1) 2p 30amp circuit.. There is no neutral wire or additional ground rod!!!! Should I repull w/ 6-3 seperate the neutal/ground or do as my other journymal suggests and use the romex grd as a neutral and isolate the ground by driving a ground rod???? or put it back the way I found it??? GOTTA-GO play baseball w/youngen DENNIS


You do need to rewire it if the homeowner is willing to pay for a correct install, otherwise document what you have found as far as violations and give a copy to the homeowner and keep a copy for your records.

If the homeowner doesn't want to pay for the rewire see if they will at least give the name of whoever did the work in the first place and keep the name of the installer with the documentation.

This sounds like a typical handyman job to me and is the real reason I don't like to see handyman work, they tend to cut corners to keep the price down but never check to see what is required by code.

I have seen hot tubs installed by handymen cheaper than I can buy the materials to do the job correctly. There is no way to compete with that sort of work.

[George Stolz]

rt66, you need to take a look at this (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=95495) if you believe that a ground rod would replace an EGC at the hot tub.

[electricguy61]

Using 680.42(C) is not permissible if the NM cable is supplying a feeder. It is permissible if one is supplying equipment only. Read the section carefully.
680.25 is the section to read if one is supplying a feeder.

What constitutes a feeder? Read the definition of feeder in Article 100.
So, if there are overcurrent devices between the wiring from the panel inside the building to the Spa Assembly, then you cannot take advantage of 680.42(C).

Just a question Pierre: Do you believe this is a safety issue, or one of those quirks in the code?

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see what difference it makes if the wires are in a romex or a conduit, as long as they are sized and otherwise installed appropriately. I might add that I've never had a spa I wired this way fail an inspection (I realize that doesn't make it right)

[mistabass]

Thank you for setting it straight didn't read it properly

[jimport]

Pierre,

I too would like to hear you expand on the .25 vs .42 install. How would this be different functionally?

[Jerseydaze]

Heres one that comes up the ground in a 6-3 rx is #10 So home owner tells you he need a 50 amp line no prob 6-3 to spa panel 50 gfi break to pipe or liquid tight so you run the rx mount the panel go to run to the tub and you see a sticker that the hot tub manufacturer requires a #6 ground OK
A ignore it code says #10
B Run #6 ground from tub panel (still #10 In RX from main)
C Rip out rx and run pipe and a #6 from main
D scratch the sticker off

[mistabass]

.25-a they fed a spa panel which i belive is a feeder .42 sounds like if you bring it wright to the spa

[Pierre C Belarge]

Just a question Pierre: Do you believe this is a safety issue, or one of those quirks in the code?

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see what difference it makes if the wires are in a romex or a conduit, as long as they are sized and otherwise installed appropriately. I might add that I've never had a spa I wired this way fail an inspection (I realize that doesn't make it right)

Pierre,

I too would like to hear you expand on the .25 vs .42 install. How would this be different functionally?


Remember, I did not write this, I am just the reader.
From what I have been told, the main reason behind this is the protection of the EGC. The CMP wants as much protection of the EGC as is possible.




.25-a they fed a spa panel which i belive is a feeder .42 sounds like if you bring it wright to the spa

Yes, that is ths jist of it.

[jimport]

I wonder why the manufacturers specify a #6 ground for some tubs. Any ideas?

[electricguy61]

If the romex is exposed to physical damage, it would be an illegal installation.

Hmmm.

Thanks for your input, Pierre

[jimport]

Remember, I did not write this, I am just the reader.
From what I have been told, the main reason behind this is the protection of the EGC. The CMP wants as much protection of the EGC as is possible.



I don't see how OCP vs a pullout disco near the tub would make any difference in regards to the EGC or its level of protection. I must be missing something?