No Knockouts Petition

[Vod-Vil]

This thread will be printed out and sent to all manufacturers of electrical equipment to facilitate the demise of pre-punched knockouts in ALL enclosures larger than a four square box.

ATTENTION MANUFACTURERS!!!

WE OWN TOOLS THAT ARE CAPABLE OF CREATING HOLES IN METAL OBJECTS!!!

Why are you catering to the 1% of electricians that can't afford a hole saw?
Why do I have to SPECIAL ORDER an enclosure with no knockouts?
Why are the holes you provide NEVER in the right place?
Why aren't the holes spaced to be compatible with Unistrut?

YOU ARE NOT HELPING US,YOU ARE HURTING US!!!



STOP THE INSANITY!!!

[480sparky]

I don't know. I stil prefer factory KOs in 4-11/16 boxes.


But I agree... anything larger you get the punch set out.

[Pierre C Belarge]

Is it Vod-vil?
or
Vaudville? :grin:


I can answer all of your questions in 1 word.

MONEY

[brian john]

Sure would boost the sales of GreenLee C punches, Do they still make C punches?

[480sparky]

Sure would boost the sales of GreenLee C punches, Do they still make C punches?

You bet they do. 1731 (http://www.mygreenlee.com/Products/main.shtml?p_search=1731&greenlee_category_id=100&Submit=Find&portalProcess_2=showGreenleeProductTemplate&upc_number=15911) and 1732 (http://www.mygreenlee.com/Products/main.shtml?p_search=1732&greenlee_category_id=100&Submit=Find&portalProcess_2=showGreenleeProductTemplate&upc_number=27361).

Is it Vod-vil?
or
Vaudville?

Neither. Vaudeville.

[Pierre C Belarge]

You bet they do. 1731 (http://www.mygreenlee.com/Products/main.shtml?p_search=1731&greenlee_category_id=100&Submit=Find&portalProcess_2=showGreenleeProductTemplate&upc_number=15911) and 1732 (http://www.mygreenlee.com/Products/main.shtml?p_search=1732&greenlee_category_id=100&Submit=Find&portalProcess_2=showGreenleeProductTemplate&upc_number=27361).



Neither. Vaudeville.



I usually check my spelling. I keep a dictionary on my desk, and I have an online dictionary handy. So much for being lazy.

[480sparky]

I usually check my spelling. I keep a dictionary on my desk, and I have an online dictionary handy. So much for being lazy.

I don't need spellcheck for Vaudeville. I was there. http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Emoticons/phiphi.gif

[Pierre C Belarge]

I don't need spellcheck for Vaudeville. I was there. http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Emoticons/phiphi.gif



You have really come up (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=114114)in the world since then.;)

[ultramegabob]

assorted knock outs suck, I wish all enclosures came with removeable panels for tops and bottoms, and you could order either all 1/2 or all 3/4 knock outs or just blank ends.

[brian john]

C punches are great tools, but I have not seen one in years.

[brantmacga]

Why aren't the holes spaced to be compatible with Unistrut?


I would much prefer they align the mounting holes on the rear of the cabinet for unistrut mounting before tackling the no-knockout issue.


I would rather have an option for KO's. They're great for resi work, but I agree it would be nice to get a QO setup w/o KO's for small commercial non-romex work.

[480sparky]

C punches are great tools, but I have not seen one in years.

I use mine about every week.

[Karl H]

I am a strong supporter of the "Anti-Knock-Out" Freedom movement.
I hate having to special order every box larger than a 4/11 or 2100 box
without K/O's.

[macmikeman]

About 4/5's of the time the prefab ko's in load centers are fine and dandy enough cause they make it quick to rope up the panel. Then you get the call to replace somebody's panel, and of course then they will all be wrong and you end up with funny looking ko's with "outies" (hey maybe I just started a new trade slang here) cut out of the box. Thats when I start cussing and wishing there was no such thing as a factory ko.

[480sparky]

......you end up with funny looking ko's with "outies" (hey maybe I just started a new trade slang here) ......

I call 'em Mickey Mouse Ears.

[quogueelectric]

Once you accept the cost of carbide cutters you will drill holes in steel stainless effortlessly and fast. Not an issue in my world. Cuts through stainless like butter. I have 3 different grade levels Klein cheap crap, Milwaulkee-Ok for the price, Greenlee- Worth evry bit of the 300+ for the kit. Just use common sense and not abuse or run the bit into concrete for any reason. Try to stay away from hardened (blue ) steel and welds.

[Rockyd]

Mna! I guess I hit the hornet's nest dead on last week about the stupidity of KO layouts (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=113837) on load centers and panelboards!!!

Put my name in the hat for NO KO's in anything larger than a 4 & 11/16" box :)

[PetrosA]

I can't justify the cost of an entire carbide set, but I got the 1/2" and 3/4" saws and I LOVE THEM. Anything bigger I just use the KO punch (either the manual, which I keep in my Jeep, or the hydraulic which we keep at the shop).

I've never seen the C punch - how does it work?

I agree that anything bigger than a 4 11/16" box needs to come without KOs except resi panels, which need KOs that you can actually use with romex connectors so they don't hit each other, or that need to be put in in a certain order to get them to fit. KOs in the bigger boxes are like the pre-punched "holes" in those silent floor joists... most of the time they don't work.

One more thought on the carbides - It would be great if they came up with a set optimized for PVC boxes. Digging it out of the bit sucks.

[wireguru]

what is it you are encountering with knockouts that are such a problem?

SQD NQ panelboards......I order the can with no knockouts
Wire Guard brand pullboxes......I order the boxes with no knockouts

:D

[ibew441dc]

This thread will be printed out and sent to all manufacturers of electrical equipment to facilitate the demise of pre-punched knockouts in ALL enclosures larger than a four square box.

ATTENTION MANUFACTURERS!!!

WE OWN TOOLS THAT ARE CAPABLE OF CREATING HOLES IN METAL OBJECTS!!!

Why are you catering to the 1% of electricians that can't afford a hole saw?
Why do I have to SPECIAL ORDER an enclosure with no knockouts?
Why are the holes you provide NEVER in the right place?
Why aren't the holes spaced to be compatible with Unistrut?

YOU ARE NOT HELPING US,YOU ARE HURTING US!!!



STOP THE INSANITY!!!

Well, while we're at it! Get rid of EMT segments for 1'' and less.

But on topic...I'm all for the eradication of pre-punched knockouts in: cabinets,cutout boxes,meter socket enclosures, wireways,and pull and/or junction boxes exceeding 5'' in any dimension

[chris kennedy]

I support this movement.

[TOOL_5150]

Get rid of EMT segments for 1'' and less.



what does this mean?

~Matt

[iwire]

what does this mean?

~Matt

It took me a while but I think he means 'factory' bends for 1/2", 3/4" and 1" when an electrician should have those size benders at a minimum.

[TOOL_5150]

It took me a while but I think he means 'factory' bends for 1/2", 3/4" and 1" when an electrician should have those size benders at a minimum.

ahhh but then what would the hacks do!?? :grin:

~Matt

[480sparky]

.......I've never seen the C punch - .............


http://www.mygreenlee.com/products/upc/images/15911.JPG


how does it work?

Click here (http://65.36.183.19/greenlee/im/IM705rev15.pdf) for the instruction manual. Basically, you don't need to drill a hole or have a hole to start with. The punch and die are not drawn together with a bolt, but pushed together from opposite sides. 100x faster than a typical KO set. This is the absolute best thing for punching out gutters, tubs, panels, troughs, etc. that do not have factory KOs (and the ONLY way to fly, IMPO).

Not pictured is the hydraulic pump needed to run it.
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Emoticons/whisperingsmiley.gifI won't mention I got mine on fleabay for $211.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Emoticons/editsmiley.gifEdit to add: The two pins in the photo (between the punches and dies) are for centering the KO. You don't need to make crosshairs to get the hole right where you want it, you only need to mark the center. Place the pin on the center, and boom, you're done.

[Chenley]

I'm in support for the "No Knockouts Movement", except resi panels.

[iwire]

I will stick with my uni bits in 1/2", 3/4" & 1" pipe sizes. The shop has C punches but to me they are more of a pain to hall around then they are worth.

[don_resqcapt19]

I will stick with my uni bits in 1/2", 3/4" & 1" pipe sizes. The shop has C punches but to me they are more of a pain to hall around then they are worth.
I agree, except we use Blair holcutters (http://www.blairequipment.com/holcutters/holcutters.html) for those size holes.

[weressl]

This thread will be printed out and sent to all manufacturers of electrical equipment to facilitate the demise of pre-punched knockouts in ALL enclosures larger than a four square box.

ATTENTION MANUFACTURERS!!!

WE OWN TOOLS THAT ARE CAPABLE OF CREATING HOLES IN METAL OBJECTS!!!

Why are you catering to the 1% of electricians that can't afford a hole saw?
Why do I have to SPECIAL ORDER an enclosure with no knockouts?
Why are the holes you provide NEVER in the right place?
Why aren't the holes spaced to be compatible with Unistrut?

YOU ARE NOT HELPING US,YOU ARE HURTING US!!!

STOP THE INSANITY!!!

Since the manufacturer 'talked' to your employer who pays for the device they evaluated what would be more cost effective. In addition the homeowner does not have the need to buy a tool for a one-shot deal.

Personally I think that the punch outs are way too weak, making them highly susceptible to leave unintended opening.

[ibew441dc]

what does this mean?

~Matt

It took me a while but I think he means 'factory' bends for 1/2", 3/4" and 1" when an electrician should have those size benders at a minimum.

Yes..... segments = factory bends

ahhh but then what would the hacks do!?? :grin:

~Matt

The hacks will have to apply somewhere else.:grin:

[active1]

Put me down for no knockouts.

[480sparky]

ahhh but then what would the hacks do!?? :grin:

~Matt

Who cares?

[TOOL_5150]

Who cares?

peter d

The founder and owner of hack electric of course!

:D:D:D

~Matt