Daughter got shocked today cleaning the horse auto-water tank..

[bbaumer]

My daughter claimed she was getting shocked today when she was cleaning out the horse's automatic waterer. I told her it was her imagination as I had disconnected the tank heater at least a month ago. She said she knew that and even checked the disconnect in the barn and it was "off".

Went to check it out. Put my hand in the water. Nothing. She put her hand in. Shocked!. Looked at her feet. She was wearing wet flip-flop sandals. Hmmm. Went around to the other side of the barn, at least 100' away and disconnected the fence charger. Came back to the tank. No shock.

Hmmmm. The fence near the waterer is made of wood. I can find no grounds on the high-tensil fence. Hmmm. Turned fence charger back on and took my shoe off and gave it a go. Yep. I could feel it zap me but not too bad. Got to thinking about a few days ago when we had the horses out and watered them out of the rubber tub. They were acting funny. Testing the water and splashing it numerous times before drinking. Didn't think much of it at the time but I know why now.

Anyhow, disconnected the neutral and ground wires (hot already disconnected at the switch but I also opened the breaker at the panel). Tried the waterer again. No more shock.

Arrrrgh. Not sure where the problem is yet. The water heater is powered through a GFI recep in the barn so I would think if the neutral was skinned it would have tripped when the heater was on but it did not. Gonna be kind of an ordeal to lift the waterer and check the terminations underneath.

Any ideas?

[tom baker]

The electric shock threshold is slightly over 1 mA for men, less for women. The GFCI, if working, trips from 4-6 mA.

[Rockyd]

Lots of total accumulation potential available. This probably doesn't apply to your case, but offers some diversity in the brainstorming aspect. Click here for links (http://www.mikeholt.com/newslettersArchive.php?list=SV-HTML&back=articlecategories.php) that all electricians should consider when the problem becomes "funky".

[charlietuna]

Sounds like a POSSIBLE POLARITY BACKFEED problem. I bet the horses weren't drinking too much water.....

[bbaumer]

Just to be clear, the shock is most definitely from the fence charger. It pulses about once per second and you can feel the pulse. No shock. Shock. No shock. Shock. etc.

Just having a hard time figuring out how this is happening. I don't think it is the fence itself since the waterer is next to the wood fence in the corral and several feet away from any high tensile fence, on which there are no grounds.

Just for grins I "grounded" the water with a piece of #8 bare solid copper. Pushed it into the ground maybe 8" and dunked the other end into the tank. This GREATLY increased the intensity of the shock.

The fence charger is grounded to the service grounding electrode conductor 100' away from the water tank. The tank heater also has a ground wire going back to the same service.

[ericsherman37]

Just for grins I "grounded" the water with a piece of #8 bare solid copper. Pushed it into the ground maybe 8" and dunked the other end into the tank. This GREATLY increased the intensity of the shock.


Do the horses appreciate your "hands-on" method of testing shock intensity? :D

[benaround]

This exact problem has been on this Forum 2-3 times that I know of, I do not remember

if or how it got solved, it's not that uncommon for some reason. I'll see if I can find the posts.

[benaround]

So, is the fence circuit, 1 wire to fence and 1 wire to grounding electrode? If that is so,

I can see a problem.

[iaov]

Yeah. First, what the hell are you doing checking a possible shock hazzard by touching it!!:-?This should be checked by a proffesional with a meter!

[LarryFine]

It sounds like the fence charger's output is leaking to earth through all of the fence posts and any and all other leakage pathways, possibly including capacitance.

Remember, too, that the charger's output is a high voltage between terminals. Grounding one can cause the earth's voltage to rise around that grounding point.

[quogueelectric]

I think the fence is tracking to te better ground at the waterer. Do you have it on insulators at the wooden posts??

[whillis]

The fence charger is grounded to the service grounding electrode conductor 100' away from the water tank. The tank heater also has a ground wire going back to the same service.

What you've described is leakage from the fence flowing from the wet ground through the horse, into the water in the trough, then back to the charger through the heater ground or water supply piping. A quick and dirty fix is to scrape 6" of soil off of the area around the trough and lay down a section of concrete reinforcing mesh that's tied solidly to the building ground rod. Once the mesh is covered with dirt it creates an equipotential plane around the water trough and prevents the horses from getting zapped.

The NEC should have specific requirements around grounding and bonding in areas housing livestock, especially dairy barns. Might be worth looking there for some other ideas to mitigate the problem.

[bbaumer]

Yeah. First, what the hell are you doing checking a possible shock hazzard by touching it!!:-?This should be checked by a proffesional with a meter!

Never really considered the "danger" of a fence charger. Since I've lived around livestock and hot fences for my whole life (40 years), and been zapped more times than I can remember plus never heard of a fatality from a fence charger, including livestock, I don't think I am taking much of a risk.

Like I said, I made sure the actual feed to the water tank heater was disconnected prior to testing.

[bbaumer]

What you've described is leakage from the fence flowing from the wet ground through the horse, into the water in the trough, then back to the charger through the heater ground or water supply piping. A quick and dirty fix is to scrape 6" of soil off of the area around the trough and lay down a section of concrete reinforcing mesh that's tied solidly to the building ground rod. Once the mesh is covered with dirt it creates an equipotential plane around the water trough and prevents the horses from getting zapped.

The NEC should have specific requirements around grounding and bonding in areas housing livestock, especially dairy barns. Might be worth looking there for some other ideas to mitigate the problem.

The tank itself is on a 15x15 concrete slab with mesh in it. It is NOT however tied back to the barn grounding electrode. I can try that easily enough temporarily but it will be some work to do it permanently as they are roughly 100' apart. Trenching will be involved.

[hillbilly1]

Check the fence for faults to ground, weeds, cracked insulators and such. Eliminate this fault and your problem will go away, at least until something comes in contact with the fence again. Drive a full size ground rod at the charger, not one of those short ones they supply at the feed store. This will also make the fence more effective at the farthest points.

[JWCELECTRIC]

Are the horses drinking from it regularly?

[growler]

I bet the horses weren't drinking too much water.....


Just wait until the SPCA get wind of this. " Man has watering trough electrified to keep horses from drinking".... " More on this horrific incident at 11:00". :D

[charlietuna]

The water container's only electrical path is through the water heater's common conductor. Somewhere the shock "pulse" is leaking(since you've determined it's not full voltage) back to the common conductor. Possibly the fence unit is wired backwords or has an internal problem allowing the shock "pulse" voltage to backfeed on the common back to the water heater. by backfeed, i mean via the nuetral.

[Brian Oshman]

The fence charger is grounded to the service grounding electrode conductor 100' away from the water tank. The tank heater also has a ground wire going back to the same service.

This is your problem. You do not use the service grounding electrode for the secondary side of the shock controller. You must use separate grounding electrodes no more that 20 feet from the charger and you will need to install three electrodes at least six foot deep and not more that ten feet from one another.

When installing the grounding electrodes make sure that they are installed no less than fifty feet from any service electrode, water pipe, buried service line, telephone line, etc... If you drive the rods within this area then you create the potential for ground loops and shock hazard. The grounding electrodes are for the return of the high voltage secondary charge, not to ground the primary, that is done with the service electrode through the grounded plug.

The secondary ground side must be isolated from the service ground.

Also, as mentioned, while you are at it, go through and inspect all of the insulators and pass through where the hot wire exits the building to ensure integrity of the insulators but you will need to install three, six foot ground rods isolated from the service grounding electrode as I have explained above.

[George Stolz]

I'm on board with getting the charger on it's own ground rod, that makes sense to me.

I'd only install one, right next to the charger, IMO.

[Brian Oshman]

Three are recommended to ensure that alternate paths are not taken and ensure constant grounding due to variations in ground moisture content. Secondary voltage can be 30KV and is designed to energize fencing to 20 miles or longer.

Also, the charger gounding rods need to be at least 50 feet or more from any other service ground, water pipe, or other utility.

[Brian Oshman]

Here is an example.

http://www.afence.com/ElectricFenceJPG/warnin4.jpg

[cschmid]

there are several good points here and many variables we have not been told. fence charger does need its own ground and it needs to be a very low resistance ground. the other thing we are missing here is how is the water supplied and is the service to the waterer from an sub panel in the horse barn? or is the horse barn a seperate service and a seperate well? So are we going to make some assumptions here or are we coing to encouragebbaumer to continue with the research and finding of the cure. I vote for findind the cure. I raise cattle and animals are more sensitive to electricity then humans as they are more in contact with the earth. humans wear all these protective covering.

[hillbilly1]

I raise cattle and animals are more sensitive to electricity then humans as they are more in contact with the earth. humans wear all these protective covering.

Especially when you have four unisulated hooves stuck in the mud!:smile:

[muckusmc]

17 Mistakes To Avoid With
Electric Fencing

By Wayne Burleson email: rutbuster1@mcn.net

With 30 years of experience building hundreds of miles of smooth-wire electric fence, I've seen just about every fencing mistake possible. And I continue to see folks make many of the same common mistakes. I still make mistakes myself, because I'm constantly challenging myself to make fencing easier, faster, stronger, and safer.

High-tensile, smooth wire, electric fencing is the fastest and most affordable fence that I know about, and its technology has drastically improved over the past 10 years. But many folks are hesitant to use it because they remember old failures -- wires breaking, chargers starting fires, wet vegetation shorting out the fence and other troubles.

With a little commitment and a modest investment in time to learn how to use this new technology, you can save thousands of dollars and hours of maintenance time by making electric fencing work for you. So you won't have to learn the hard way, here are 17 common mistakes that you should avoid:

red ballPoor earth grounding. Lots of folks (including me) still think you can skimp when it comes to adequate earth grounding. What we must all learn to do, is install several ground rods -- at least three that are 6 to 8 feet long, galvanized, and attached with good ground clamps. The electricity must complete a full circle back to the charger through the ground. Poor grounding gives weak shocks.

red ballUsing different types of metals. Don't do it. When you hook up steel wire to copper something call electrolysis happens and the metal becomes corroded, making a poor contact and weakening shocking power.

red ballInadequate animal training. Each and every animal must learn that the fence hurts. So please build a handy training fence, preferably on heavy wet soil. Flag the fence for visibility, and force the animal to try and cross the fence.

red ballFenceposts too close together. Well-intended government agencies recommend lots of fenceposts in their fencing specifications. Fifty-foot spacing on flat land is just too close. You want the fence to act like a rubber band. When something runs into the wire, you don't want to break all the insulators or knock posts out of the ground. If the posts are spread apart far enough -- say 80 to 100 feet -- the wire will just bend to the ground and pop back up.

red ballToo many wire tie-offs. Again, fencing specifications may call for braces every quarter mile wire to tie the wire off. But I have found that even 5,000 feet is OK, and actually adds more elasticity in the fence wire. This reduces the chance of wires breaking.

red ballWires tied tight to each fencepost. To maintain elasticity (the rubber band effect), wires must float past each line fencepost.

red ballBuilding new fences near old existing fences. Old fence wires seem to be always moving somewhere and coming in contact with the new electrified wires. This almost always causes a complete short in the fence, and away the animals go.

red ballBottom wire in contact with heavy, wet vegetation. Wet grass will suck lots of juice out of any fence charger. Hook up the lower wires separate from the other wires, and install a switch for the lower wires that you can turn them off when the grass is tall.

red ballPoor-quality insulators. Be careful here. Sunlight deteriorates plastic. So buy good-quality, long-lasting insulators. Usually black ones are treated to resist degradation by ultraviolet light. I have found that poor quality insulators turn white or clear after a few years in direct sunlight.

red ballStaples driven in all the way. When using plastic tubing as an insulator, don't staple it too tight. I once spent several hours trying to find a short in a gate. Finally, I discovered a staple had damaged the tubing next to a ground wire, causing a hidden short.

red ballSolar panels not directly facing the sun. This seems almost too obvious to be a problem. But a solar panel won't function at its potential if not properly installed. Please read the instructions. Don't just guess if you have done it right.

red ballKinks in high-tensile wire. A small kink in stiff wire will always break. Also avoid hitting this kind of wire with a hammer, as this will easily damage the wire causing a break. Always cut out a damaged section of high tensile wire and splice it. Incidentally, I have found that a hand-tied square knot makes the strongest splice.

red ballInstalling in-line strainers close together. Wires will flip together once in awhile. If in-line strainers are installed one above the other, they will sometimes hook up. Separate in-line strainers by a fencepost and they will never catch on each other.

red ballWires too close to each other. Keep them at least 5 inch apart.

red ballNo voltmeter. Without a voltage meter to check how hot a fence is, you're just guessing.

red ballWire too small. The larger the wire, the more electricity it will carry. Don't skimp.

red ballInadequate charger. A wimpy fence charger gives you a wimpy fence. Don't skimp here because animals will think a smooth wire fence is a joke without a strong bite, and they'll walk right through it.

Your fence charger should be low-impedance, come from a dependable supplier, and have a warranty and replaceable components. Please buy one that puts out lots of power. During a rainy year, you may have lots of plant growth touching the wires. That's when you will need extra power to shock through the heavy, wet vegetation. It's also handy to find folks with an extra charger they can loan to you while yours is being repaired. Expect some breakdowns, especially from lightning. Certain fence suppliers offer lightning protection with their warranties.

Don't be afraid to try electric smooth wire fencing. Find a good fence suppler and learn some of the tricks of the trade. I know folks who hate electric fencing. But their pocketbook is not big enough to build a conventional fence, which may cost up to $1 per foot.

The next time your bulls get in a fight with the neighbors bulls and tear down all the fence, remember that most animals will learn not to touch a wire with 5,000 volts running thorough it.

Also check out - http://www.afence.com/Electric_Fence/how_to_elecfence/elecinstall.htm (http://www.afence.com/Electric_Fence/how_to_elecfence

/elecinstall.htm)

[bbaumer]

Thanks for all the replies. I've got a lot to look into. Thank goodness I have until about late November to get it figured out and fixed. Shouldn't have any water tank freezing issues before then.

[lbwireman]

17 Mistakes To Avoid With
Electric Fencing

By Wayne Burleson email: rutbuster1@mcn.net

With 30 years of experience building hundreds of miles of smooth-wire electric fence, I've seen just about every fencing mistake possible. And I continue to see folks make many of the same common mistakes. I still make mistakes myself, because I'm constantly challenging myself to make fencing easier, faster, stronger, and safer.

High-tensile, smooth wire, electric fencing is the fastest and most affordable fence that I know about, and its technology has drastically improved over the past 10 years. But many folks are hesitant to use it because they remember old failures -- wires breaking, chargers starting fires, wet vegetation shorting out the fence and other troubles.

With a little commitment and a modest investment in time to learn how to use this new technology, you can save thousands of dollars and hours of maintenance time by making electric fencing work for you. So you won't have to learn the hard way, here are 17 common mistakes that you should avoid:

red ballPoor earth grounding. Lots of folks (including me) still think you can skimp when it comes to adequate earth grounding. What we must all learn to do, is install several ground rods -- at least three that are 6 to 8 feet long, galvanized, and attached with good ground clamps. The electricity must complete a full circle back to the charger through the ground. Poor grounding gives weak shocks.

red ballUsing different types of metals. Don't do it. When you hook up steel wire to copper something call electrolysis happens and the metal becomes corroded, making a poor contact and weakening shocking power.

red ballInadequate animal training. Each and every animal must learn that the fence hurts. So please build a handy training fence, preferably on heavy wet soil. Flag the fence for visibility, and force the animal to try and cross the fence.

red ballFenceposts too close together. Well-intended government agencies recommend lots of fenceposts in their fencing specifications. Fifty-foot spacing on flat land is just too close. You want the fence to act like a rubber band. When something runs into the wire, you don't want to break all the insulators or knock posts out of the ground. If the posts are spread apart far enough -- say 80 to 100 feet -- the wire will just bend to the ground and pop back up.

red ballToo many wire tie-offs. Again, fencing specifications may call for braces every quarter mile wire to tie the wire off. But I have found that even 5,000 feet is OK, and actually adds more elasticity in the fence wire. This reduces the chance of wires breaking.

red ballWires tied tight to each fencepost. To maintain elasticity (the rubber band effect), wires must float past each line fencepost.

red ballBuilding new fences near old existing fences. Old fence wires seem to be always moving somewhere and coming in contact with the new electrified wires. This almost always causes a complete short in the fence, and away the animals go.

red ballBottom wire in contact with heavy, wet vegetation. Wet grass will suck lots of juice out of any fence charger. Hook up the lower wires separate from the other wires, and install a switch for the lower wires that you can turn them off when the grass is tall.

red ballPoor-quality insulators. Be careful here. Sunlight deteriorates plastic. So buy good-quality, long-lasting insulators. Usually black ones are treated to resist degradation by ultraviolet light. I have found that poor quality insulators turn white or clear after a few years in direct sunlight.

red ballStaples driven in all the way. When using plastic tubing as an insulator, don't staple it too tight. I once spent several hours trying to find a short in a gate. Finally, I discovered a staple had damaged the tubing next to a ground wire, causing a hidden short.

red ballSolar panels not directly facing the sun. This seems almost too obvious to be a problem. But a solar panel won't function at its potential if not properly installed. Please read the instructions. Don't just guess if you have done it right.

red ballKinks in high-tensile wire. A small kink in stiff wire will always break. Also avoid hitting this kind of wire with a hammer, as this will easily damage the wire causing a break. Always cut out a damaged section of high tensile wire and splice it. Incidentally, I have found that a hand-tied square knot makes the strongest splice.

red ballInstalling in-line strainers close together. Wires will flip together once in awhile. If in-line strainers are installed one above the other, they will sometimes hook up. Separate in-line strainers by a fencepost and they will never catch on each other.

red ballWires too close to each other. Keep them at least 5 inch apart.

red ballNo voltmeter. Without a voltage meter to check how hot a fence is, you're just guessing.

red ballWire too small. The larger the wire, the more electricity it will carry. Don't skimp.

red ballInadequate charger. A wimpy fence charger gives you a wimpy fence. Don't skimp here because animals will think a smooth wire fence is a joke without a strong bite, and they'll walk right through it.

Your fence charger should be low-impedance, come from a dependable supplier, and have a warranty and replaceable components. Please buy one that puts out lots of power. During a rainy year, you may have lots of plant growth touching the wires. That's when you will need extra power to shock through the heavy, wet vegetation. It's also handy to find folks with an extra charger they can loan to you while yours is being repaired. Expect some breakdowns, especially from lightning. Certain fence suppliers offer lightning protection with their warranties.

Don't be afraid to try electric smooth wire fencing. Find a good fence suppler and learn some of the tricks of the trade. I know folks who hate electric fencing. But their pocketbook is not big enough to build a conventional fence, which may cost up to $1 per foot.

The next time your bulls get in a fight with the neighbors bulls and tear down all the fence, remember that most animals will learn not to touch a wire with 5,000 volts running thorough it.

Also check out - http://www.afence.com/Electric_Fence/how_to_elecfence/elecinstall.htm (http://www.afence.com/Electric_Fence/how_to_elecfence

/elecinstall.htm)

Great suggestions. Thanks. Unfortunately, for some reason the link returns a "404" error. :-?

[Brian Oshman]

You do not use the service ground for the fence ground. The fence ground has its own ground system. This is on the secondary high voltage side. On the primary where it plugs in it is of course grounded to the service ground.

If you live in dry climates you can run your ground wire in the middle and the hot wires on the top and bottom of the fence and then you ground it every 1500 feet to ensure ground contact.

For normal installations you install three ground rods minimum 50 feet from any service ground, water pipe, aux. service cables, i.e. underground feeders, telephone, cable, etc... The ground rods are minimum 6 feet long to 8 feet long and no more than 10 feet apart from each other and no more than 20 feet from the first rod and the fence charger.

This guy is using the service ground and that is allowing stray voltages to travel along the ground and when you touch a service ground, electrical, water pipe, building structure, etc... it can allow the ground to act as a conductor for the hot wire and since the fence charger is grounded to the service ground you will get whacked.

This is an exception where you do not bond the secondary to the electrical service building ground. It needs to remain isolated.

Not sure if there is even a code for this as there are battery operated and solar charging battery operated that do not connect to A/C power at all and would not apply anyway.

The A/C type just get grounded through the 120 volt plug for primary grounding.

[muckusmc]

Great suggestions. Thanks. Unfortunately, for some reason the link returns a "404" error. :-?

Sorry - did the same thing to me but when I copy and pasted it to the address bar I got there - try that

[LarryFine]

Especially when you have four unisulated hooves stuck in the mud!:smile:
They may even be shod.

[cschmid]

what....we would never have water on the ground around the water tank..