Install copper pigtails to aluminum

[staticcontrol]

Hello Fellow Electricians,

I have an offer to install copper pigtails to existing aluminum wire on all switches,outlets and lights in 2 story home with basement. The lights are recess and some fans.

There is approx 45 switches,50 outlets,7 fans, 15 recess lights and other lights.
Give or take of course.

Can someone please tell me how to estimate this job. Is it by device plus material? Is it hourly. Home owner asked me to get back to him no later than Wednesday afternoon and I just seen him. It's Monday afternoon.
I'm a new business owner trying hard to learn the craft of estimating.

Sincerely,
Staticcontrol

[Dennis Alwon]

If you are just going to pigtail with the proper connectors then I would figure at least 2-3 days labor (16-24 man hours) and about $5 per device. If you are replacing the device then you would have to add more money for the device and new plates.

I guess it would depend on how fast you can work but 95 devices to take out pigtail and reinstall is going to take time.

[wireguru]

make sure your estimate/contract clearly explains (and make them initial next to this section) that there may be additional work required that is not part of the estimate.

As soon as you start pulling devices in an aluminum wired house, you are going to find all sorts of stuff you have to fix and HO isnt going to want to pay.

[Buck Parrish]

I agree with the other two post, with aluminum you should take extra time. Some of the wires may be corroaded, that is esspecially common with aluminum. I have had to go 18 inches above the box to find good non brittle insulation.
And I have done jobs that went very quickly. A lot depends on if they had used electric space heaters or not.
I done a 12 unit apartment building.

[JFletcher]

In addition to what has been written above, I'd do a site (home) survey as well. Make sure the HO moves all of the furniture and other belongings out of your way.

Long ago, I had a full-sized gun safe (~550lbs), bolted through the floor, in front of an outlet. Moving it would have (and did) take almost an entire day. Right now, I have two outlets and a switch that are blocked by heavy furniture (desks). My point is that there may be non-electrical related issues that can also affect your quote or bottom line.

[1793]

What method of connection are you planning on using for CU to AL? I'm puzzled by the fan, recess and other lights. :-? Why pigtail copper to aluminum and then back to copper?

Have you thought about changing the devices to AL instead of adding the pigtails?

[Dennis Alwon]

What method of connection are you planning on using for CU to AL? I'm puzzled by the fan, recess and other lights. :-? Why pigtail copper to aluminum and then back to copper?
I think the op wants to use copper pigtails and connect them to the existing aluminum wire.

[1793]

I think the op wants to use copper pigtails and connect them to the existing aluminum wire.

It is late and been a long day but I still don't see the need for the pigtails for the fans and lights.

[staticcontrol]

HELLO,

The house is EMPTY. Completely. I still would like to hear of a good estimate please. I appreciate the posts so far but not confident yet in the advice as far as price goes. The home owner wants the aluminum wire that connects the recess lights, fan etc, to be copper. This will involve me taking down lights and exposeing the junction box to make splices. I'll be using wire nuts special for this application. The other factors are understood. Thank you.

Very Best,

Staticcontrol

[1793]

HELLO,

The house is EMPTY. Completely. I still would like to hear of a good estimate please. I appreciate the posts so far but not confident yet in the advice as far as price goes. The other factors are understood. Thank you.

Very Best,

Staticcontrol

I would start at T & M. The type of connectors being used should make an impact on your price. You also need to think about box fill issues in pricing this project.

[1793]

HELLO,

... The home owner wants the aluminum wire that connects the recess lights, fan etc, to be copper. This will involve me taking down lights and exposeing the junction box to make splices. I'll be using wire nuts special for this application. The other factors are understood. Thank you.

Very Best,

Staticcontrol

Are the fans and recess wires not CU? I'm old and slow but this part of the job appears to be a waste. Will will concede that the wirenuts should be changed but no need for pigtail.

[220/221]

I'm a new business owner trying hard to learn the craft of estimating.


I'm not going to estimate it for you :roll:

Start with the basics, 1) labor and 2) materials.

1. Take an educated guess at how many hours it will take you times how much you want to charge per hour

2. Add up the material cost and at least quadruple it on things like devices.

3. 1 + 2 = your estimate

After understanding the basics you need to learn to calculate and factor in your overhead. Insurance is a big one when AL wiring is involved. You touch it, you own it.

Consider using CO/ALR devices instead of pigtails.

[480sparky]

......... I appreciate the posts so far but not confident yet in the advice as far as price goes. ............l


Price, in terms of dollars, is something we cannot address. Your cost of doing business is not the same as mine, or anyone else's. And 'prices' vary from region to region, state to state.

This is the same reason you don't pay the same for a gallon of gas as I do.

[quogueelectric]

I wouldnt do it for less than 25 per device twice for the fans because of height issues. Book gives you .2 on a new install which is 12 minutes the proper connectors would be almost 3$ each times 2 a little cheaper in volume and a new device and plate is a given for me. I am seriously discounting this to get the job banking that I can do more than 4 per hr but you have to count the UNinstall o the existing outlet making this price MORE than fair. BTW how do you plan on grounding these?

[Oakey]

I did an apartment recently at $22 per switch and receptacle. Homeowner showed me 2 other bids that were cheaper but I have a charming personality :grin:

[quogueelectric]

I wouldnt do it for less than 25 per device twice for the fans because of height issues. Book gives you .2 on a new install which is 12 minutes the proper connectors would be almost 3$ each times 2 a little cheaper in volume and a new device and plate is a given for me. I am seriously discounting this to get the job banking that I can do more than 4 per hr but you have to count the UNinstall o the existing outlet making this price MORE than fair. BTW how do you plan on grounding these?

Extra 10 per recess light .............104@25 15@35 ===========>>>>3125 pluss any addnl at t+m a penny less and I walk away. Edit to say I am NOT a charmer!!

[aline]

I use the Alumiconn connectors in the link below and tighten them with an inch pound torqueing screwdriver. For GFCI receptacles I usually have to replace the box with a larger box.
For duplex receptacles or single pole switches its $38 to $43 per device and includes installing a new device and cover plate. 3-ways and 4-ways are more. GFCI's are more. Light fixtures range from $69 to $120 depending on type of fixture. Ceiling fans range from $125 to $220 depending on type and difficulty of taking the fan down and putting it back up.

You should charge plenty for taking on the risks of working with aluminum wiring. Some contractors don't even want to mess with it.

http://www.alcopstore.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=4

http://www.alcopstore.com/reducing-fire-hazard-aluminum-homes.pdf

[staticcontrol]

Hello Everyone,

Thank you all for the input. It got better and better. All the advice is priceless and easily understood. I do agree with the risk of touching aluminum.

Have an excellent 4th of July weekend.

Sincerely,
Staticcontrol

[izak]

i do not understand why anyone would consider making an inferior splice, (copper to aluminum) when devices made FOR aluminum are readily available everywhere.

seems to me that with that in mind, pigtailing shouldnt be considered an option at all, no matter what the customer wants/thinks.

[aline]

i do not understand why anyone would consider making an inferior splice, (copper to aluminum) when devices made FOR aluminum are readily available everywhere.

seems to me that with that in mind, pigtailing shouldnt be considered an option at all, no matter what the customer wants/thinks.
I don't know of any GFCI receptacles rated for aluminum wiring. I don't know of any light fixtures either. What about dimmers? Are there decora devices rated for aluminum wiring?

The drawback to using receptacles and switches rated for aluminum wiring is that sooner or later someone that doesn't know any better is going to change out the device with the wrong type.

Of course the best option is to rip out all the aluminum wire and replace it with copper but I'm not the one paying the bill, the customer is, so I give them options and let them make the choice.

Also I don't consider my aluminum to copper splices to be inferior. :)

[480sparky]

..... I don't know of any light fixtures either....

I'd say around half the luminaires I've installed are wired with nothing but aluminum.

[Electron_Sam78]

... Book gives you .2 on a new install which is 12 minutes ...

What book? Is there a book that tells you how fast a job should take you?

[satcom]

What book? Is there a book that tells you how fast a job should take you?

Go by the times in a time and motion estimate, and your on your way to learniing how to not estimate work.

[jeremysterling]

What book? Is there a book that tells you how fast a job should take you?

I have a "book" that has numbers like:

100' of 3/4" EMT mounted on threaded rod from concrete takes one man 6.787 hours

also:

12/2 MC copper w/ steel armor takes one man .012hour/foot

I am not an estimator, so do not ask me how to apply these numbers to a bid.

[LarryFine]

I'd say around half the luminaires I've installed are wired with nothing but aluminum.
If you're referring to the fixture wires, they're probably tinned or plated copper, and not aluminum.

[480sparky]

If you're referring to the fixture wires, they're probably tinned or plated copper, and not aluminum.

Then every strand is plated.

[LarryFine]

Then every strand is plated.Absolutely.

[480sparky]

Absolutely.


Next time, I'll snip a bit off and look for copper.

[iMuse97]

Next time, I'll snip a bit off and look for copper.

you'll find it, I don't doubt. and just for the OP: Hope you get the job, but don't go too low, the stuff takes a long time, and we all know the problems with opening up old work, much less, to deal with the AL factor. Just did three 36 unit APT buildings in the last year. Not a great job, but a job, nevertheless.

[Fulthrotl]

Hello Fellow Electricians,

I have an offer to install copper pigtails to existing aluminum wire on all switches,outlets and lights in 2 story home with basement. The lights are recess and some fans.

There is approx 45 switches,50 outlets,7 fans, 15 recess lights and other lights.
Give or take of course.

Can someone please tell me how to estimate this job. Is it by device plus material? Is it hourly. Home owner asked me to get back to him no later than Wednesday afternoon and I just seen him. It's Monday afternoon.
I'm a new business owner trying hard to learn the craft of estimating.

Sincerely,
Staticcontrol

depends on a number of things.

how are you going to make the connections? ul approval for copper
retrofits is limited.
and expensive.

your liability in the event of a fire isn't.
it's expensiver.

you've got copalum fittiings with the swaging tool as the repair of choice.

getting the cert for that retrofit is about $2k out of pocket, when i checked.
and the tool is $300 a month to lease, and the crimps are a buck each.

and new devices.

and a minimum of $2m liability, with errors and omissions, and latent
defects coverage.

i was looking at this as a viable business model, and would not do a 3 br
house for less than about $4,500.

i've got one now that wants me to do a retrofit, and truth be told,
even with work slow, i don't want the liability.

[hurk27]

We have one neighborhood here that almost all the houses (about 800) are in Au.
and over time they have been calling on failing circuits, we have priced several of these houses on pigging to copper, and others on rewires (both not cheep, but the only ones we got were ones forced by insurance and loan companies, the rest we just use as a cash cow and keep repairing circuits as they fail. we use the Ideal Twister wire nuts made for connection of AL to CU, but AL can be a pain, as if the conductor was nicked when originally installed it will break right off at the RC connector.

Some of our bids to pig tail out a whole house with the Ideal system, went as high as $5500, but interest does spark up after a fire in that neighborhood (no pun intended)

Also we use a disclaimer in out contract that when we do a repair then we are only liable for the repair the owner authorized us to do, and any other failures in the electrical system are beyond our responsibility.

Not sure how that would work in other states but here it's good to go.

[LarryFine]

We have one neighborhood here that almost all the houses (about 800) are in Au.Gold??? That's expensive cable!

Or did you mean Al? ;)

[quogueelectric]

What book? Is there a book that tells you how fast a job should take you?
Yes there is if you cant install a duplex recepticle in 12 minutes or less you had better find a new profession.

[bradleyelectric]

Yes there is if you cant install a duplex recepticle in 12 minutes or less you had better find a new profession.

does it say how long to allow to get the the outlet? carry it to the location? unpackage it?, or do you just do these things for free and only concern yourself with getting paid to actually turn screws?

[hurk27]

Gold??? That's expensive cable!

Or did you mean Al? ;)

LOL, missed that one.
If these houses were wired in gold, I would rewire them for free lol as long as I could keep the old (gold) wire8-)

[quogueelectric]

does it say how long to allow to get the the outlet? carry it to the location? unpackage it?, or do you just do these things for free and only concern yourself with getting paid to actually turn screws?

I added an extra 3 min for my estimate so you have 15 min per device. I could still make money on this if I got every device out of my truck bins unlocked locked install and bring the garbage back to the truck each time. I still dont like the liability involved with al however liability hinges upon someone proving that you made a mistake which caused the problem. As long as you are being code compliant you cannot be held liable for people having a poor wiring install in thier house. Based on past performance I will estimate that it will average 6 min per device. All day long.