Inspector's Rant, Unhappy Electrician

[ivsenroute]

I may get longwinded so have patience.

1) Get assigned an electrical inspection for a residential above ground pool. Permanent electric required due to depth of pool & gas heater.

2) Arrive to find a 1x6 pressure treated post with a switch and a GFCI receptacle.

3) I write up the installation for being less than 5' from the pool (was less than 3').

4) Not one bonding wire to the pool frame/post, nothing.

5) I write up the lack of bonding. No electrician around so I leave the paperwork with the homeowner.

6) Get called back for re-inspection the next week and find that the switch was not moved (still <3') and the receptacle was replaced with a GFCI device.

7) I write up the switch for being <5" from the pool. Electrician PO'd and calls me some names.

8) Bonding with #8 solid copper only goes to one vertial support post and nothing else. I ask to see manufacturer's install instructions or prove that there is continuity between all metal parts of the pool frame to the bond. Again electrician even more PO's and calls me more names.

9) Continuity verified so I approve the bonding.

10) I hand the electrician the paperwork and show him the code section specified for the switch being too close to the pool. He says he does not need to see it and he knows what he is doing. I said to him "Apparently not".

11) I get called back for inspection #3, no electrician to be found. He threw and old flatplate cover on the GFCI device and stripped out the bottom screw on the cover which left if hanging loosely.

12) I write it up for not being weatherproof and for it being incorrectly installed.

13) Homeowner shows me 3 outside receptacles that he also installed that I was not aware of since this work was not applied for on the permit. All three lack the "bubble covers".

14) I write that up too and hand the homeowner the paperwork letting them know the installation had once again failed.

15) Electrician calls me every name in the book and cannot believe that I kept failing his installation. He thought that I should have passed it and just gave him a phone call to let him know what to correct.

What part of his choice of a profession does he not understand? I suppose that I am to never document anything and remember everything that I inspected, right?

I kept my cool but should have reminded him of a few things:

* He needs to do the job the right way the first time.
* He needs to find another profession.

I suppose I am out of line on this one.

[quogueelectric]

I may get longwinded so have patience.

1) Get assigned an electrical inspection for a residential above ground pool. Permanent electric required due to depth of pool & gas heater.

2) Arrive to find a 1x6 pressure treated post with a switch and a GFCI receptacle.

3) I write up the installation for being less than 5' from the pool (was less than 3').

4) Not one bonding wire to the pool frame/post, nothing.

5) I write up the lack of bonding. No electrician around so I leave the paperwork with the homeowner.

6) Get called back for re-inspection the next week and find that the switch was not moved (still <3') and the receptacle was replaced with a GFCI device.

7) I write up the switch for being <5" from the pool. Electrician PO'd and calls me some names.

8) Bonding with #8 solid copper only goes to one vertial support post and nothing else. I ask to see manufacturer's install instructions or prove that there is continuity between all metal parts of the pool frame to the bond. Again electrician even more PO's and calls me more names.

9) Continuity verified so I approve the bonding.

10) I hand the electrician the paperwork and show him the code section specified for the switch being too close to the pool. He says he does not need to see it and he knows what he is doing. I said to him "Apparently not".

11) I get called back for inspection #3, no electrician to be found. He threw and old flatplate cover on the GFCI device and stripped out the bottom screw on the cover which left if hanging loosely.

12) I write it up for not being weatherproof and for it being incorrectly installed.

13) Homeowner shows me 3 outside receptacles that he also installed that I was not aware of since this work was not applied for on the permit. All three lack the "bubble covers".

14) I write that up too and hand the homeowner the paperwork letting them know the installation had once again failed.

15) Electrician calls me every name in the book and cannot believe that I kept failing his installation. He thought that I should have passed it and just gave him a phone call to let him know what to correct.

What part of his choice of a profession does he not understand? I suppose that I am to never document anything and remember everything that I inspected, right?

I kept my cool but should have reminded him of a few things:

* He needs to do the job the right way the first time.
* He needs to find another profession.

I suppose I am out of line on this one. You are doing your job correctly it is time for someone who calls themself an electrician to do the same. Thank the good lord that there are people who care about others safety out there. Dont change to accomodate local hacks.If your boss doesnt have the metal to stand up against these idiots let him sign off on it and save a mass card for the first electrocution from the bad install.

[TOOL_5150]

If i was an inspector - I would have done the same thing. You keeping your cool showes the professionalism, just as his work showes the lack of it.

~Matt

[ultramegabob]

what was the home owners attitude during all of this?

[electricmanscott]

What code cycle was this done under?

I find these things as annoying as inspectors who don't know their job. ;) Actually more so. :smile:

[Mr. Bill]

You did just fine. And the more people get upset with me the more closely I look at the work. It's all by the book. No passing of the work with a verbal warning to fix items XYZ. There's no trust of his workmanship.

[norcal]

"I kept my cool but should have reminded him of a few things:

* He needs to do the job the right way the first time.
* He needs to find another profession.

I suppose I am out of line on this one."


Not out of line at all. Isn't insanity defined as doing the same thing over & over & expecting a different outcome?

[KevinVost]

You are doing your job correctly it is time for someone who calls themself an electrician to do the same. Thank the good lord that there are people who care about others safety out there. Dont change to accomodate local hacks.If your boss doesnt have the metal to stand up against these idiots let him sign off on it and save a mass card for the first electrocution from the bad install.

I agree. Just remember to keep your cool and dont sink to his level with suggestions. Let him fail the install as many times as it takes for him to get it right. If he can't pass it (I believe from the post that he is the licensee???), your AHJ should have policy in place to refer him to the contractors board. (If he isn't the licensee, the licence holder needs to come out to the job and supervise the install, or do it themselves, since they are responsible.)

[Karl H]

You absolutely did the right thing! If I failed an install over and over again,
and when I opened the good book to show him the errors of his ways,and
he were to tell me he didn't need to look at it,"He knows what he's doing."
I would simply hand him the correction notice, politely say,"I disagree,"
turn around and walk away, laughing hysterically.:smile:

It seems in cases like this, cities should start charging "Re-Inspection"
fees.

[cowboyjwc]

I've had a few like that and you just wonder what they are getting away with in other jurisdictions or maybe they're just not in it for the money.:smile:

It wasn't long after one of these jobs, where the guy kept going on and on about what a good electrician he was, that I read an article and it said that incompetent people usually don't know that they are incompetent and actually think higher of them selfs than competent people do of them selfs.

[cowboyjwc]

I would just like to say that on the other hand, there is nothing that makes my day more than walking on a clean job where you could almost stand in one place and inspect it, because it is so neat. The contractor is there and he really knows what he's talking about. Sure makes both of our lives easier.

[480sparky]

Remember the old adage: "Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience."

[Ohmy]

This is why inspectors are soo irritatable all the time.

[LarryFine]

This is why inspectors are soo irritatable all the time.Well, let's all do our part to help them keep what's left of their sanity. :smile:

"Let's get out there and give them one for the Gipper!"

[zappy]

You absolutely did the right thing! If I failed an install over and over again,
and when I opened the good book to show him the errors of his ways,and
he were to tell me he didn't need to look at it,"He knows what he's doing."
I would simply hand him the correction notice, politely say,"I disagree,"
turn around and walk away, laughing hysterically.:smile:

It seems in cases like this, cities should start charging "Re-Inspection"
fees.

That's what I was wondering, don't you charge each time you come out to inspect the job?

[satcom]

That's what I was wondering, don't you charge each time you come out to inspect the job?

I would go one more step and contact the state board to have this guy re tested, before he cooks a family in one of his pool jobs.

[izak]

WoooHOO

GO Inspector!!

sometimes you guys are the only thing keeping our trade halfway correct.

[220/221]

Bonding with #8 solid copper only goes to one vertial support post and nothing else. I ask to see manufacturer's install instructions or prove that there is continuity between all metal parts of the pool frame to the bond

Did he come up with the paperwork or just prove it was continuous?

[roger]

I would go one more step and contact the state board to have this guy re tested, before he cooks a family in one of his pool jobs.

Ivsenroute is from PA which has no state licensing, kinda scary isn't it.

Roger

[ceb58]

I read an article and it said that incompetent people usually don't know that they are incompetent and actually think higher of them selfs than competent people do

Translated: If you cant dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS:grin:

[SiddMartin]

Ivsenroute is from PA which has no state licensing, kinda scary isn't it.

Roger

very... see some crazy people out ther that qualify

[SEO]

Ivsenroute you made the correct call. All inspectors will run into people like that on inspections sometime or another. I have several times. I have a form that I use that is called a field correction notice. I state the violation and list the code section, the contractor or owner gets one copy the office gets one copy and I keep one copy. Nobody wants to get cited for a violation but if you leave a clear legible notice most people will pay the re-inspection fee and correct the problem without to much cussing. A good consistent,code knowledgeable inspector is a contractors and owners best friend. They will keep the playing field level and code complient. One thing that bothers me is when you find so many visible violations how many hidden ones are you missing? Also what kind of technique is he using for his installation?

[cowboyjwc]

I know that even contractors have these kind of days, but a few weeks ago I show up on my fourth job of the morning and it's a guy that I've known for a long time, I just looked at him and said "so what's your sad story?". He just started laughing, "been one of those days, huh?"

Like the saying goes, "have a nice day, before some contractor/inspector louses it up.":smile::grin:

[hillbilly1]

Ivsenroute is from PA which has no state licensing, kinda scary isn't it.

Roger

Even licensing is not a guarantee that somebody knows what they are doing, I know of too many that are good test takers, but don't have a clue how to install it.

[roger]

Even licensing is not a guarantee that somebody knows what they are doing, I know of too many that are good test takers, but don't have a clue how to install it.

I agree wholeheartedly but, to think that a screw driver, a pair of wire cutters a beat up station wagon, and having hooked up a set of stereo speakers qualifies someone to enter into electrical contracting business is still more scary. :grin:

Roger

[LarryFine]

I agree wholeheartedly but, to think that a screw driver, a pair of wire cutters a beat up station wagon, and having hooked up a set of stereo speakers qualifies someone to enter into electrical contracting business is still more scary. :grin:Uh-oh! ;)

[roger]

Uh-oh! ;)

Exactly. ;)

Roger

[PCN]

This raises another question. So lets say the hack electrician refuses to correct the violations, and the homeowner continues using the pool and does not pressure the electrician to fix it.

Can the AHJ stop them from using the pool? It's not like a building that would need an occupancy permit. How would they be forced to correct it?

By the way I use the term "electrician" with great hesitation in this post.:grin:

For what it's worth I think you're 100% doing the right thing Ivensroute.

[PetrosA]

Ivsenroute is from PA which has no state licensing, kinda scary isn't it.

Roger

Even licensing is not a guarantee that somebody knows what they are doing, I know of too many that are good test takers, but don't have a clue how to install it.

I agree wholeheartedly but, to think that a screw driver, a pair of wire cutters a beat up station wagon, and having hooked up a set of stereo speakers qualifies someone to enter into electrical contracting business is still more scary. :grin:

Roger

In spite of PA not having a statewide license (not that I'm defending the system) there are good electricians here. The really weak link as I see it is in code enforcement. Each township/borough/city has it's own quirks and listed inspectors some of whom aren't even specialized as electrical inspectors. Electrical isn't the only area we have this problem with, either. Some counties have health departments, others don't. On top of that, there are still areas where the only thing you really need an inspection for is a service so the POCO will hook you up. Beyond that point, you're livin' in Pakistan ;)

This guy is a prime example of an utter lack of professionalism, regardless of what he drives or what tools he uses. He completely missed the opportunity to learn from his inspector, and will end up looking like a complete idiot in front of the customer who, hopefully, won't pay him.

A good inspector is worth his/her weight in gold. I'm pretty smart, have a high IQ and can "read" the code, but there will be times I'll need to consult so I can understand it. Why would anyone but an idiot pass that opportunity by?

[ultramegabob]

This raises another question. So lets say the hack electrician refuses to correct the violations, and the homeowner continues using the pool and does not pressure the electrician to fix it.

Can the AHJ stop them from using the pool? It's not like a building that would need an occupancy permit. How would they be forced to correct it?

By the way I use the term "electrician" with great hesitation in this post.:grin:

For what it's worth I think you're 100% doing the right thing Ivensroute.

I have never heard of an inspector having to go after a home owner in a situation like that, but I know they will have the meter pulled on a commercial building in my area if they refuse to comply.

[kbsparky]

Without the recourse of appealing to an electrical licensing board, you are basically stuck in an endless circle of failed inspections, etc.

The homeowner in such cases would have to resort to withholding payment until the job passes final inspection.

The homeowner's insurance company could also become involved in the event that the HO started using the pool without the proper final inpection certificate. Basically, they could deny coverage on anything related to the pool if a problem manifested itself. Especially if there was proper documentation to show that the job was improperly installed.

[bradleyelectric]

Why would anyone but an idiot pass that opportunity by?

Because you can't teach someone that knows everything anything.

[PCN]

Because you can't teach someone that knows everything anything.

That about sums it up right there in one sentence.

[ivsenroute]

A response to some of the replies:

1) The homeowners thanked me multiple times and said that they learned a lesson about hiring people. I was actually complimented for being professional while he was acting like an idiot. That is what is most important next to the #1 fact that the installation is not code compliant and safe.

2) I always give one free return call when a job fails. I never want to come across as an inspector who is trying to fail guys just to generate revenue. I will never see the money from him so the 3 additional trips I made will be on me.

3) I cover 4 municipalities so I will have to deal with him again. It won't be pretty and I will cover the book with a fine toothed comb on all of his future installations.

4) NEC 2005

Thanks for all of your responses. I have failed inspections every day and most of the time the electrician is there to address the issues before the end of the inspection. Most are really good about it and I am more than understanding because I myself have failed inspections as an electrician.

[1793]

I may get longwinded so have patience.

1) Get ... 15) Electrician calls me every name in the book and cannot believe that I kept failing his installation. ...

I do my best to get along with the inspectors in my area after all they are holding all of the cards/tags.

I have never understood why an Electrician or EC would ever "antagonize the man with the gun".

[mthead]

Reading your post,I get the feeling you've dealt with versions of this before.
In the course of any inspectors day ,you run into jobs that are things of beauty and then you see the job that really should have been a piece of cake but it really looks and is crummy.
That's life-it sounds like you rolled with it and did not let it take you down-it's that BP reading that inspectors have to watch sometimes-at least my doctor says I do.
Addressing one other statement brought up here --
Regarding the idea of an inspector sighting defects and this being related to additional charges-=
I aggree with the person who brought that up-
It would seem that the idea of a for profit inspection agency,one where defects generated income ,would inherently create a conflict of interest.
Inspections should be performed with the intention ideally, of safety--
once profit enters the picture ,the public safety while it can be maintained becomes secondary-.
To anyone who would point out that I am an employee of a non-profit-I would say you're right-I am-I get paid a lot lees too-maybe I'm naive .
I work for something I believe in- I've passed on the offers to double what I make by moving to a for profit--so yeah,I guess I am naive-thats just the way I am .

[quogueelectric]

They should tie in the inspection with a fail having to contact the insurance carrier and notify the fail. This would fix thier little red wagon.

[iMuse97]

I may get longwinded so have patience.

What part of his choice of a profession does he not understand? I suppose that I am to never document anything and remember everything that I inspected, right?

I kept my cool but should have reminded him of a few things:

* He needs to do the job the right way the first time.
* He needs to find another profession.

I suppose I am out of line on this one.

Keep up the Good Work!!!!

Poor work, masquerading as electrical construction, is no reason for you not to require the MINIMUM--the National Electric Code--or other minimums approved by the AHJ, ie. You. Thanks!!

[iMuse97]

Uh-oh! ;)

Watch it!! Larry's worried he might need to get a better stationwagon; or at least a nicer set of screwdrivers? Or are you just going to practice more on hooking up the stereo speakers? :)

[LarryFine]

Watch it!! Larry's worried he might need to get a better stationwagon; or at least a nicer set of screwdrivers? Or are you just going to practice more on hooking up the stereo speakers? :)Hey! I'm progressing to surround sound, baby! :grin:

[daleuger]

All I can say is.....wow

[SPARKS40]

I wonder if the "installer" broke anything when he slammed the trunk lid.........