Low volatage undercabinet lighting

[mtnelectrical]

Is there any listed wire we could use for undercabinet lights, inside the walls (12 volts)

[crazyboy]

Romex NM :D

[mtnelectrical]

that's it. There is no other wire we could use?

[480sparky]

that's it. There is no other wire we could use?

MC. EMT/IMC/PVC/GRC & THHN.

If you're asking about the 'zip', or lamp-style cord usually packaged with UC pucks lights, no.

See 400.8.

[mtnelectrical]

no,
I remember couples years ago an inspector mention there was a wire that was listed for inside walls, and I am not talking about puck lights that are sold on HD stores

[crazyboy]

no,
I remember couples years ago an inspector mention there was a wire that was listed for inside walls, and I am not talking about puck lights that are sold on HD stores

There's a lot of wire listed for walls ;) Care to be a little more specific?

[mtnelectrical]

I'm sorry, you are right , I meant cable with 2 wires in there for low voltage wiring that it could be concealed in walls

[LarryFine]

There are certainly CL2 and CL3 low-voltage cables, such as in-wall speaker wire. Is there a readon they couldn't be used?

[PetrosA]

There are certainly CL2 and CL3 low-voltage cables, such as in-wall speaker wire. Is there a readon they couldn't be used?

I've only ever used NM, but before using speaker wire I'd want to make sure that it's rated for the continuous load being put on it with lo/vo lighting.

BTW, is anyone else noticing that the insulation on Ambiance wire is pretty junky lately? I've been having problems with it peeling off when separating the two wires.

[Sierrasparky]

Low voltage wire CL2 - CL-3

They work fine size the wire for Voltage drop it's very critical especially with solid state power supplies and Halogen lights.

Low - vo cable is the only way to go.
Make sure you put a divider in the box if you share a junction box.

[LarryFine]

I can easily find CL2/3 and plenum-rated speaker wire in as large as 12ga easily, both 2- and 4-conductor, and probably 10ga with a bit of effort.

[mthead]

---Why is it that the words speaker wire keep coming up -oh yeah!because it's listed for use as 'speaker' wire.
much the same as that "malibu" u/g wiring that the supply houses will sell along with a puck lite package is listed for use "underground"-not in the walls.
Got to tell you - 'I've allways used this wire",and "the salesman said it was ok" don't carry much weight.
Sort of like the time I said to the Trooper-"Well yeah it says 25mph,but everybody else was going 55mph too"--all that got me was a look that said "You sayin' I'm not doin' my job boy? That was long before I became an inspector but I learned that the "Used to,never before,the other guy said," type of argument just doesn't really work in life.
The answer is usually in the instructions or the listing or the white book.
Unfortunately-especially with pucks-it probably won't be the answer you want.

I'll also say that most inspectors that I know wish there was an easy solution to this situation-I don't like pucks-12volts or not they burn VERY hot but the h/owners are still sold on them and it wears on us going thru this everytime.

[Sierrasparky]

not all Cl-2 and three is rated as Speaker wire.

[220/221]

We use listed wire. I don't know the designation. It's sheathed, stranded pairs..... kind of like fire alarm wire. I will check tomorrow.

[ike5547]

For under cabinet lighting supplied from a class 2 power supply, speaker wire can be installed concealed if it is listed and marked CL2 or better as permitted by 725.61(E)(1) and marked in accordance with 725.82(L).

IMO.

[ike5547]

Seems like there me be an issue with 310.10, though.

[iMuse97]

We use listed wire. I don't know the designation. It's sheathed, stranded pairs..... kind of like fire alarm wire. I will check tomorrow.

We used heavy black wire, that otherwise looked like "speaker wire." This was quite a few years back, and it was "approved" by the AHJ in the toughest locality around here. I'll see if I can find some of it.

[Sierrasparky]

I am curious as to 310.10 . What part does this have to do with our application ?

We have 70 C Cl-3 and Cl-2 wire. It is rated for low voltage applications. It's not twisted like speaker Cl rated.
Are we doing something wrong.

[infinity]

Wouldn't the CL2 or CL3 cable need to be listed for use as part of a low voltage lighting system?


411.2 Definition.
Lighting Systems Operating at 30 Volts or Less. A lighting system consisting of an isolating power supply, the low-voltage luminaires, and associated equipment that are all identified for the use. The output circuits of the power supply are rated for not more than 25 amperes and operate at 30 volts (42.4 volts peak) or less under all load conditions.
411.3 Listing Required.
Lighting systems operating at 30 volts or less shall comply with 411.3(A) or 411.3(B).
(A) Listed System. Lighting systems operating at 30 volts or less shall be listed as a complete system. The luminaires, power supply, and luminaire fittings (including the exposed bare conductors) of an exposed bare conductor lighting system shall be listed for the use as part of the same identified lighting system.
(B) Assembly of Listed Parts. A lighting system assembled from the following listed parts shall be permitted:
(1) Low-voltage luminaires
(2) Low-voltage luminaire power supply
(3) Class 2 power supply
(4) Low-voltage luminaire fittings
(5) Cord (secondary circuit) for which the luminaires and power supply are listed for use
(6) Cable, conductors in conduit, or other fixed wiring method for the secondary circuit

[PetrosA]

From the Seagull Lighting website:

"...In other words, if the 10/2 stranded, 105° cable is used, the jumper wire must be of the same gauge e.g., 10 gauge romex or equivalent."

To me, it's unclear what exactly they mean by equivalent. Would it be so hard to just list they wire they would like to see used in their "system?" Also, as I was trying to nail something down in the NEC last night, I came across a part in the low voltage sections that read (paraphrased) "number of terminals in device shall match the number of conductors in cable assembly" which seemed to imply that we'd need to use 12/2 or 10/2 without ground, since none of the systems I've seen have or are allowed to have a ground screw terminal. Hey, I'm all for technical accuracy in the code book, but when it comes to indoors low voltage lighting it reads more as technobabble than jargon IMHO. I also think it's poor practice on the planning end to design a system that uses the same yellow or orange NM for 12 volts as for 120/240V.

[Sierrasparky]

Wouldn't the CL2 or CL3 cable need to be listed for use as part of a low voltage lighting system?

The section you cited must be from the '08 NEC. since my '05 version does not read like that.
I would think if the wire is rated Class 2 as is the power supply that would be ok.???

[ike5547]

I am curious as to 310.10 . What part does this have to do with our application ?

We have 70 C Cl-3 and Cl-2 wire. It is rated for low voltage applications. It's not twisted like speaker Cl rated.
Are we doing something wrong.


A connection at a halogen lamp, for example, might require a higher rating.

[Sierrasparky]

A connection at a halogen lamp, for example, might require a higher rating.

Usually those are pigtailed with Factory High temp glass braid wire.

[ike5547]

Wouldn't the CL2 or CL3 cable need to be listed for use as part of a low voltage lighting system?

411.3 Listing Required.
Lighting systems operating at 30 volts or less shall comply with 411.3(A) or 411.3(B).

(B) Assembly of Listed Parts. A lighting system assembled from the following listed parts shall be permitted:

(6) Cable, conductors in conduit, or other fixed wiring method for the secondary circuit

What I am reading from this is that you need to use listed cable. It doesn't seem to alter the discussion.

[Sierrasparky]

What I am reading from this is that you need to use listed cable. It doesn't seem to alter the discussion.

segull has a CL-2 wire that is made for them. I don't see any other designation other than CL-2.

We are going to see more and more LED usage for undercabinet ,cabinet lights and such. these lights use hardly any power and a quite cool operating. I have used some ultra-bright LED for a project and the output is far better than FL or Halogen at a fraction of the watts.

I can't see having to use romex to connect to these devices. Ca is on the 05'. In the 05' code all you need is CL-2 from the secondary of a CL-2 trans.
I hope I am not mis interpeting something.

[ike5547]

411.3 of the 08' NEC seems to only specify that listed cable be used. CL2 is listed cable.

411.3 Listing Required.

(B) Assembly of Listed Parts. A lighting system assembled from the following listed parts shall be permitted:

(6) Cable, conductors in conduit, or other fixed wiring method for the secondary circuit

[macmikeman]

This is what I do. I run "listed" smurf tube inside the walls as a chase. I pull the "listed cl2 cables" sold as part of the listed assembly thru that, making sure the smurf is exposed on the ends after the sheetrock is installed. The smurf is not terminated in boxes, so we probably have a code ding right there ,(pretty darn sure smurf is not allowed to not be a complete system), but the inspectors here all love the way I do this. Homeowner has to really peek under to see the 1/4" exposed tube jutting out the wall 1/4" behind the fixture. The other end is hidden above the upper cabinets. 1/2" smurf bends ok in a 2x4 wall, 3/4" smurf will not make the 5 times the od bend rule.

[mkgrady]

This is what I do. I run "listed" smurf tube inside the walls as a chase. I pull the "listed cl2 cables" sold as part of the listed assembly thru that, making sure the smurf is exposed on the ends after the sheetrock is installed. The smurf is not terminated in boxes, so we probably have a code ding right there ,(pretty darn sure smurf is not allowed to not be a complete system), but the inspectors here all love the way I do this. Homeowner has to really peek under to see the 1/4" exposed tube jutting out the wall 1/4" behind the fixture. The other end is hidden above the upper cabinets. 1/2" smurf bends ok in a 2x4 wall, 3/4" smurf will not make the 5 times the od bend rule.

Let me see if I follow: You run a switched NM to above the cabinet. This pokes out the wall and connects to the primary of trans., each LV light gets a class2 cable run in smurf, the transformer sits on top of the cabinet. How would you do this if the cabinet tops were at the ceiling height?

[izak]

he wouldnt

[LarryFine]

I just looked at a box of Honeywell Genesis Series speaker wire. The work 'speaker' is not printed on the cable or the box's label.


What is printed, minus the obvious or non-relevant stuff, is:

16 AWG 2/C (ETL) 3038058 Type CM/CL2 Sunl. Res. (RoHS) W/O#39984-E2760008


And, printed on the box's label is:

Power Limited Circuit Cable


And, on an added stamp:

Okay to use in accordance with NEC Art. 725 CL2 or CL3 and okay for ETL, CM, CL3

[infinity]

According to Article 411 you cannot simply use any cable that is listed. The revision of 411.3(B) was to allow different lighting components made by different manufacturers to be used together to form a system. Previous editions of the code led people to believe that the lighting system needed to be listed as a complete system. The 2008 now gives the option to use listed lighting components from different systems together. I agree that the first sentence is 411.3(B) is poorly worded and does not clear state this intent.

[ike5547]

According to Article 411 you cannot simply use any cable that is listed.

I agree.

Using the 08' code now, according to 411.4(A)(2), if the listed cable meets the criteria 725.130(B) then it can used.

For secondary conductors of a class 2 power supply, Larry's listed type CL2 cable meets that minimum criteria as long as it's not installed in a plenum, through multiple floors, and other restrictions on CL2 cables that are spelled out in article 725.

[macmikeman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmikeman
This is what I do. I run "listed" smurf tube inside the walls as a chase. I pull the "listed cl2 cables" sold as part of the listed assembly thru that, making sure the smurf is exposed on the ends after the sheetrock is installed. The smurf is not terminated in boxes, so we probably have a code ding right there ,(pretty darn sure smurf is not allowed to not be a complete system), but the inspectors here all love the way I do this. Homeowner has to really peek under to see the 1/4" exposed tube jutting out the wall 1/4" behind the fixture. The other end is hidden above the upper cabinets. 1/2" smurf bends ok in a 2x4 wall, 3/4" smurf will not make the 5 times the od bend rule.

Let me see if I follow: You run a switched NM to above the cabinet. This pokes out the wall and connects to the primary of trans., each LV light gets a class2 cable run in smurf, the transformer sits on top of the cabinet. How would you do this if the cabinet tops were at the ceiling height?

In those cases I put switched nm and the transformer inside the top cabinet , and run the lv cables inside the cabinets in "nice duct", a hinged non metallic raceway sold at ADI.

[infinity]

I agree.

Using the 08' code now, according to 411.4(A)(2), if the listed cable meets the criteria 725.130(B) then it can used.

For secondary conductors of a class 2 power supply, Larry's listed type CL2 cable meets that minimum criteria as long as it's not installed in a plenum, through multiple floors, and other restrictions on CL2 cables that are spelled out in article 725.


According to the ROC that initiated this change to the 2008 NEC all of the parts used together must be listed as lighting system components. They do not need to be from one manufacturer but they do need to be listed as part of a low voltage lighting system.

Therefore a CL2 cable must be listed as part of a low voltage lighting system in order to use it. Any old listed CL2 or CL3 cable cannot be used.



18-106 Log #2712 NEC-P18
Final Action: Accept

(411.3)
__________________________________________________ _____________
TCC Action: The Technical Correlating Committee directs that the Panel
reconsider the proposal and add headings to (A) and (B). This action will
be considered by the panel as a public comment.
Submitter:



Steven D. Holmes, Underwriters Laboratories Inc.

Recommendation:


Revise as follows:

411.3 Listing Required. Lighting systems operating at 30 volts or less shall
comply with (a) or (b) : be Listed .
(a) Be a listed lighting system
(b) Be a lighting system assembled from the following listed parts:
(1) Low voltage luminaires
(2) Low voltage luminaire power supply
(3) Class 2 power supply
(4) Low voltage luminaire fittings
(5) Cord (secondary circuit) that the luminaires and power supply are listed
for use with
(6) Cable, conductors in conduit, or other fixed wiring method for the
secondary circuit.
The luminaires, power supply, and luminaire fittings (including the exposed
bare conductors) of an exposed bare conductor lighting system shall be listed
for use as part of the same identified lighting system.
Substantiation:



Problem/Substantiation - Field Assembled Systems - The

wording of Section 411.3 regularly leaves the reader concluding that all parts
of a lighting system operating must be part of one listed entire lighting system.
Lighting systems operating at 30 volts or less have long been field assembled
from individually listed low voltage luminaires, listed luminaire power units,
listed cord, any any involved listed luminaire fittings.
70-453
Report on Proposals A2007



— Copyright, NFPA NFPA 70

Installers verify that individually listed lighting system parts (regularly from
multiple manufacturers) are intended for the use and have the needed ratings,
as indicated in items (a) through (d) below, to create and assemble a low
voltage lighting system. This practice has been successful for many years and
411.3 should make clear that this practice is permitted.
a) The voltage rating of the luminaires and luminaire fittings is confirmed to
match the output circuit voltage marked on the power unit.
b) The total load connected to each power unit output circuit, determined by
adding the wattages of the individual luminaires, is confirmed to not exceed the
maximum permitted total wattage marked on the power unit.
c) For landscape lighting systems, the low voltage circuit flexible cord is
confirmed to be the type and size specified in the power supply installation
instructions for the total connected luminaire load.
d) For other than landscape lighting systems, the low voltage circuit
conductors are confirmed to have an ampacity suitable for the total connected
load.
Proposed 411.3 provides for both (a) the situation where an entire listing
system is packaged and listed as a complete lighting system and (b) the
situation where individually listed lighting systems parts are field assembled
into a lighting system.
The ability of assembled exposed bare conductor lighting system parts to
comply with the performance and other requirements in the Standard for Low
Voltage Lighting Systems, UL 2108, always depends on only parts of the same
identified lighting system being used together. The last sentence of proposed
411.3 addresses this.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Panel Statement:



The panel accepts the submitter’s concerns and urges the

standards and certification agencies to consider it important that the power
supply installation instructions specify the type of conductor, size, and length.
Number Eligible to Vote: 13
Ballot Results:



Affirmative: 13
______________________________________________

[ike5547]

Therefore a CL2 cable must be listed as part of a low voltage lighting system in order to use it. Any old listed CL2 or CL3 cable cannot be used.

I think you are reading more in to that than was intended.

[infinity]

I think you are reading more in to that than was intended.

Actually I think that it's really the opposite. The intent was that all components be listed (togehter or individiually) as part of a low voltage lighting system. The wording of that code sections fails to properly convey the requirement.

[ike5547]

The way I see it, the cable described in post #30, if installed for low voltage lighting, becomes a 'listed part of a low voltage lighting system" by default.

I believe what prompted the code change in 411 had more to do with mixing and matching different transformers, fixtures, etc., and that the new wording did not add additional restrictions on cables that were not already there in the first place.

The new wording in the 08' code bares this interpretation out.

411.3 Listing Required.

(b) Be a lighting system assembled from the following listed parts:

(6) Cable, conductors in conduit, or other fixed wiring method for the
secondary circuit.

Note the bolding in (6). The cable is to be listed for the "secondary circuit" not the low voltage lighting per se.

[mtnelectrical]

Finally he red tagged my low voltage installation. Inspector came yesterday to inspect, I wasn't there I had a fire emergency in another town but sent my mechanic to pass the inspetion. We used this wire E1052S
http://www.generalcable.com/NR/rdonlyres/A439A157-965B-4D67-82D1-AFF88D2FDC2A/0/Pg110_MultiCondUnShieldRiser.pdf
of course the 72'' wires that come with the under cabinet lights don't rech the tranx so we have to extend the wires, and because of the kitchen layout we had to run it inside the wall for 24'', now inspector want us to remove all this wire and install MC cable from every light to the tranx. he said this low voltage cable needs protection from physical damage,(maybe the can of salt would corrode the wires)
My question is, Is low voltage system considered power limited controlled circuit? If it is, we could use any listed wire for such circuit, I am just talking about the secondary circuit wiring.
and this wiring does not need protection from physical damge, even the splices are allowed outside a box.

[BMacky]

I've heard about, and used Tray Cable (TC) and it seems to be popular around here (San Fran Bay Area) for low voltage applications. Supply houses seem to be selling enough of it to people asking the same question.

[infinity]

MC cable, this guy sounds a little nuts. But the subject physical damage application is discretionary since not everyone sees it the same way. My under cabinet lighting, wired with NM cable has never even been touched in the 10 years that it's been installed so IMO it will never be damaged if installed properly.

[Dennis Alwon]

I've heard about, and used Tray Cable (TC) and it seems to be popular around here (San Fran Bay Area) for low voltage applications. Supply houses seem to be selling enough of it to people asking the same question.

I don't believe TC is allowed outside a cable tray or a raceway.

336.12 Uses Not Permitted.
Type TC tray cable shall not be installed or used as follows:
(1) Installed where it will be exposed to physical damage
(2) Installed outside a raceway or cable tray system, except as permitted in 336.10(7)
(3) Used where exposed to direct rays of the sun, unless identified as sunlight resistant
(4) Direct buried, unless identified for such useArt. 336.10(7) is for industrial establishments

[ike5547]

My question is, Is low voltage system considered power limited controlled circuit?

If it is, that information should be found on the transformer(s) you used. Not all low voltage lighting is power limited.

[danickstr]

why not just use speaker wire? An audio house would have speaker wire rated for for in -wall use. I use "malibu lighting wire" since it is thick and tough and cheap. The only reason I could see it not being a good choice is if it outgasses something in a fire, but somehow I think the outgassing of a 12 ga wire in the wall will not be what kills the HO if there is a kitchen fire.

[Dennis Alwon]

why not just use speaker wire? An audio house would have speaker wire rated for for in -wall use. I use "malibu lighting wire" since it is thick and tough and cheap. The only reason I could see it not being a good choice is if it outgasses something in a fire, but somehow I think the outgassing of a 12 ga wire in the wall will not be what kills the HO if there is a kitchen fire.

Outdoor low voltage cable does not have the vertical flame rating that is required for indoor cable. This means it has not undergone the vertical flame testing by UL.

[pgordon]

We just installed the new wac led strip lights for under cabinet.
Their 2 conductor is class 2 rated ..... alot like speaker wire...zip cord, 18 awg. 12v. We had to jump in to the wall around the cook top.

[e57]

This thread came up in another - and I think much has been missed here:

So I will post the same info for this thread.


This is one of the listing guides (http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=QOVJ.GuideInfo&ccnshorttitle=Portable+Cabinet+Luminaires&objid=1074030417&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1073992303&sequence=1)typically available for these types of "puck lights" This is another.... (http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=IFDR.GuideInfo&ccnshorttitle=Low-voltage+Lighting+Systems,+Power+Units,+Luminaires+ and+Fittings&objid=1074096773&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1073988159&sequence=1) It is important to distinguish the various type, and their respective listings in regards to application. Not many allow the "Listed cord assembly" to be removed and re-spliced, and likewise those systems are not allowed in the wall unless in a chapter 3 method. As well as others - without a "Listed cord assembly" feeding the lamps, also require a chapter 3 method to be in the walls.

Bottom line is - when you get the fixture spec - you look it up in the White Book. (http://www.ul.com/global/eng/documents/offerings/perspectives/regulators/2008_WhiteBook.pdf) (The link is an 800 page PDF - careful... ;)) And or the appropriate guide for the product, the manufacturers are PURPOSEFULLY vague IMO, and do what they can to lead to the impression that their product can be used like the 'other' product similar to it. Not all are the same, and do not share the same listing for nearly identical products.

Sure there are SOME that can use field spliced class-2 wire, but there are FEW of them....

[Sierrasparky]

This thread came up in another - and I think much has been missed here:

So I will post the same info for this thread.
I am still confused as where you are going with. The one article covers portable plug connected units.
I personally do not use the DIY type puck lights. They are not plug in and thus not subject to UL QOVJ as they are not considered portable. I use Direct wire type units and Class 2 transformers that do not have a plug attachment.

[e57]

I am still confused as where you are going with. The one article covers portable plug connected units.
I personally do not use the DIY type puck lights. They are not plug in and thus not subject to UL QOVJ as they are not considered portable. I use Direct wire type units and Class 2 transformers that do not have a plug attachment.My point is to check the listing - most can not use class 2 wire concealed in the wall, (Behind the rock) and have to use a chapter 3 method instead.

Generalizing and saying "oh - puck lights - do it this way" without knowing what brand or listing of said general term like 'puck light'. One is a Chevy the other is a Daihatsu (http://www.daihatsu.com/) ;) Both of those listings - and a few others cover products all called "puck-lights" - yet differ wildly in quality and allowable installation practice.