Residential prices [Archive] - Mike Holt's Forum

fisherelectric

10-08-2009, 11:26 AM

7000 sq foot house. Has 400 amp service, supply 45 recessed lights, ~100 recepts, 42 single poles, 26 3-ways, 6 4-ways. Oven, microwave, hood, sub-zero, standard appliances, washer and dryer, Heat pump w/10 kw back-up heat, gas furnace & AC unit, wet bar in basement w/ disp & ref, 9' ceilings in basement, 10' first floor, 8' 2nd floor. No under cab lights, no dimmers, no whirlpool, no cathedral ceilings, no phone, data, or TV. Gas Fireplace w/ blower, sump pump, recpts for security panel, low voltage panel, 2 humidifiers. GC has 5 like this here in town. Gave him a price of $16,000. He told me I'm "not even in the ballpark." I'm curious what you all's take on this is. Is that price way to high? Maybe I can't afford to wire houses any more.

Loffgren

10-08-2009, 12:00 PM

I came up with 14k just in labor......

laketime

10-08-2009, 12:10 PM

I am at about 22k and you didn't even talk about smoke detectors, and bathroom fans. Maybe by not even in the ballpark he meant you are way to low.:D

fisherelectric

10-08-2009, 12:14 PM

Yeah, I figure it could take up to 10 days from putting the first box up to screwing in the last bulb w/ 2 guys at min of $1000.00 per day (recession pricing). At 16K that doesn't leave much room for materials etc and profit. It makes me wonder just where I'd have to be to be "in the ball park". In the poor house? I used to get em all. Kind of depressing.

fisherelectric

10-08-2009, 12:32 PM

He'll supply the 8 smokes and the bath fans. I get the feeling he's had several bids already that are "in his ballpark". This guy is b----ing about his current electrictian showing up at 10:00....not centering lights...leaving out feeds...etc. What does he expect. We usually end up telling these builders everything they're screwing up ...."hey, your kitchen layout doesn't match your framing...Hey...your medicine cabinets aren't framed right...Hey...your door swing is wrong...Hey.... you can't put 10 lbs of...er...sweet feed...in a 5 lb bag." You get what you pay for. Hire us and it'll make your life easier. Whatever. Rant over. Moving on.

mikeames

10-08-2009, 12:48 PM

Maybe by not even in the ballpark he meant you are way to low.:D

Thats what it is. You are no where close on the low end. Just off the top of my head I would guess $40-50k on a 7000 sqft house.

LarryFine

10-08-2009, 01:11 PM

This guy is b----ing about his current electrictian showing up at 10:00....not centering lights...leaving out feeds...etc.Tell him you couldn't even perform as well as his current guy for any less.

growler

10-08-2009, 01:12 PM

This guy is b----ing about his current electrictian showing up at 10:00....not centering lights...leaving out feeds...etc. What does he expect.

When you have to drive around town all night stealing your materials it's hard to get enough sleep so you show up late and make mistakes. :D

fisherelectric

10-08-2009, 01:18 PM

I'm sorry...my bad. This place is not 7000sq ft. It's more like 4700 counting the garage. Being too low is not what he meant. This is a typical house around here. Nothing fancy. He'll sell it for ~1.2 mil. No bells and whistles. Half the top floor is the master suite...big bath..big closets. Big rooms. He'll find someone to wire this place for 10grand...I guess. I'll probably talk to him this evening about where exactly his "ballpark" is. I could of made (some) money at 16k and kept my guys busy this winter if I were to get the whole project (six) with all our other stuff. Plus then there are always owner extras.

laketime

10-08-2009, 02:01 PM

i am doing a 4500 sq ft house right now, cedar log home so a little extra labor and with 2 kitchens but I got it for 20k

dduffee260

10-08-2009, 06:15 PM

Man actually that sounds like a price that is in the ballpark. I know you are not supposed so sq ft one but lets say $3.50 which is actually a bargain. 4200 sq ft at $3.50 is $14,700. The say about $600 for a 500 sq ft garage would put you are $15,200. I think I would tell this builder that I don't like his ballpark. I like the ballpark that the successful ball players play in. He needs to go find a cheap team to play. Just my thoughts, Good Luck !!

VoltzElectric

10-08-2009, 06:37 PM

I think that in this economy that everyone is telling you that you are way out of the ballpark just to see how much you will come down. Your bid sounds like its in the ballpark for licenced electricians!:grin: If this other guy is that bad, it will only cost him more in the long run.

wireguru

10-08-2009, 06:48 PM

When you have to drive around town all night stealing your materials it's hard to get enough sleep so you show up late and make mistakes. :D

you mean they dont pre cut that romex at the shop?

hurk27

10-08-2009, 07:11 PM

I would say "Sorry, I'm not a car sales man, I don't deal";)

peter d

10-08-2009, 07:25 PM

Moving on.

Yeah, that sounds like what you should do from this guy. ;)

peter d

10-08-2009, 07:28 PM

At least they're still building $1.2 mil, 4,700 sq foot houses even in this economy. Any idea how about average time on the market before they sell?

hurk27

10-08-2009, 07:30 PM

At least they're still building $1.2 mil, 4,700 sq foot houses even in this economy. Any idea how about average time on the market before they sell?

It's not the rich being hurt by the economy, it's US:mad:

fisherelectric

10-08-2009, 07:39 PM

He's building 6 that I know of and the first two are sold. I don't know about the rest. I used to wire a lot of houses around here, so far this year I've only done 2 spec houses for one of my steady GCs. This is the first new house action I've had since last year. Things are starting to move around here finally. I'm really tired of chasing down every lead trying to keep the guys working with all these small jobs. I've never been so busy trying to stay busy.

Teaspoon

10-08-2009, 07:58 PM

480sparky

10-08-2009, 08:25 PM

He's building 6 that I know of and the first two are sold. .............

Lemme guess......... "You give me a low price, and you get to wire the rest of 'em!" I got a dollar that's what he said to everyone. And someone took him up on his supposed promise of future work.

LarryFine

10-08-2009, 08:30 PM

Lemme guess......... "You give me a low price, and you get to wire the rest of 'em!" I got a dollar that's what he said to everyone. And someone took him up on his supposed promise of future work.That guy probably made a dollar, too. 8-)

480sparky

10-08-2009, 08:37 PM

That guy probably made a dollar, too. 8-)

Unless he lost 22 wire nuts. :D

RH1

10-08-2009, 08:47 PM

Lemme guess......... "You give me a low price, and you get to wire the rest of 'em!"

General contractors always say that, it's gotten so old and so cliché that I laugh out loud every time a GC delivers that tired old line. My response is "Sure, let's sign a contract for all the houses right now and I'll give you a killer price!"

People love to gush about "all their other work", they think we will suddenly bow and scrape and humble ourselves at their feet. In reality, what they are offering us is the amazing, once in a lifetime opportunity to work long and hard at below market rates.

Yippee! I can't wait!

Power Tech

10-08-2009, 09:01 PM

I think you are too cheep.

I bid a against Mennonite electrical company that bid a house for a ridicules price.

I had to stop by. I could not believe it. Little girls in (Little House on The Prairie dresses) running wire in the attic. I was kinda thinking that maybe little girls can do this job. Aren't there laws against that?

Guys with scruffy beards, hats and suspenders.

I stepped back in time into the Twilight Zone.

That was weird.

fisherelectric

10-08-2009, 09:18 PM

I think you are too cheep.

I thought it was too cheap (cheep) myself.

macmikeman

10-08-2009, 10:51 PM

Thats what it is. You are no where close on the low end. Just off the top of my head I would guess $40-50k on a 7000 sqft house.

Bingo- correct answer.

TOOL_5150

10-09-2009, 12:56 AM

Unless he lost 22 wire nuts. :D

you must use cheap wire nuts, mine cost double that.

Either that, or my supply house is sticking it to me.... Wouldnt be the first time.:mad:

~Matt

scottam99

10-09-2009, 07:45 AM

One of my old bosses had a saying for this. 2 bums are sitting on a park bench. One says to the other, " Ya know what? I never lost a bid."
There's much easier ways to end up in the poor house than having to work for it!!!! LOL

shermansfather

10-09-2009, 08:36 AM

Last summer a neighbor is GCing his own McMansion a couple blocks away, he already has some numbers from new build ECs. Anyway I've got 2 boys 16 & 17 both thinking about the trade, too young to take on my kind of job sites. I figure this would be perfect intro course for my sons (lots a time on the rough, I can work odd hours, close to home, friendly with GC). I come up with the kind of numbers I would charge my mother. Customer loves the idea.
OUTCOME - I was about 4 grand high

RCRosson

10-09-2009, 09:44 AM

peter d

10-09-2009, 10:47 AM

Sierrasparky

10-09-2009, 11:44 AM

LarryFine

10-09-2009, 01:09 PM

2 bums are sitting on a park bench. One says to the other, " Ya know what? I never lost a bid."
To which the other replied "That's funny; I've never won one." 8-)

iMuse97

10-09-2009, 03:19 PM

To which the other replied "That's funny; I've never won one." 8-)

Could be funny if it weren't so likely true. :roll:

sparky 134

10-09-2009, 04:31 PM

Chatting with two carpenters that are employees of the GC about the jobs they're working on. I asked who's doing the electric ?

"Some fat kid that charges $40.00 per opening. Switch, 3way, GFCI, recessed light, furnace, etc."

This is using conduit and wire.....

And he probably thinks he's making money and this particular GC will string him out for 60-90 days on payouts.

He doesn't use supports on the 1900 boxes when they're mounted to metal studs so the receptacle ends up pushing back into the wall when someone tries to plug something in.

Same GC had me bid a bathroom remodel. Old house, cloth wire, black pipe. We found a 1.25" PVC chase from the attic to the basement so I planned on running a piece of 1/2" greenfield thru it, land a junction box in the attic and basement, run pipe back to the panel and thru the attic (big attic with a floor), install one shower can, one exhaust fan, one light opening, one GFCI and supply a circuit for the floor heat.

My price was $1,275.00 and I never heard back from him....

Mr. Wizard

10-09-2009, 06:41 PM

Mr. Wizard

10-09-2009, 06:57 PM

I'm in So. Calif. and did a 3400 sq ft house (rough)/ T&M, 2 years ago for $20,000. This included 95 recessed cans, LV wiring, Service upgrade with remoted load center. I ended up in court cause the guy thought it "should have cost $10,000". Times are EXTREMELY tough right now; but be careful you don't pay him to keep your guys working.

How does that happen? This is not the first I've heard of someone being hauled into court because they "charged me too much." If a contract is signed, certainly the contract was read by the customer. An if it was signed, then certainly the dollar amount was read and agreed to by the customer. How on earth can you be taken to court after the fact? The customer agreed to the price. If he didn't like it, he could have went elewhere. That is absolute lunacy. What was the outcome of the court proceedings? I hope you won on the grounds the customer was a lawsuit-happy moron. :mad:

480sparky

10-09-2009, 07:12 PM

How does that happen? This is not the first I've heard of someone being hauled into court because they "charged me too much." If a contract is signed, certainly the contract was read by the customer. An if it was signed, then certainly the dollar amount was read and agreed to by the customer. How on earth can you be taken to court after the fact? ..........

Trust me........ it happens. More than you know. Bin dere, dun dat.

Bill Ruffner

10-10-2009, 09:34 PM

Here's what I came up with based on your info. It includes 159.9 hours which is right on per your comment of 2 guys for 10 days. The material pricing is based on a national average.

jmsbrush

10-10-2009, 10:11 PM

We just did a house that size with more can lights for $20,000 and had $3000 in change orders, It wasn't near enough.

celtic

10-10-2009, 11:57 PM

Here's what I came up with based on your info. It includes 159.9 hours which is right on per your comment of 2 guys for 10 days. The material pricing is based on a national average.

Nice work Bill http://forums.mikeholt.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

Power Tech

10-11-2009, 09:22 AM

To which the other replied "That's funny; I've never won one." 8-)

Whenever I see a homeless man pushing a cart down the street I say, "another retired electrician."

Bill Ruffner

10-11-2009, 11:11 AM

Here's what I came up with based on your info. It includes 159.9 hours which is right on per your comment of 2 guys for 10 days. The material pricing is based on a national average.

Just to clarify, every contractor's bid price will be different. There are two basic areas involved in coming up with a price - First you come up with an estimate and then you decide on the bid price.

The estimate is simply calculating your break even cost. Costs will vary based on the following:

Construction Factors: How the residence is constructed will make a big difference on labor.

It will take more labor if you have to drill through the joists in the basement rather than running on the bottom of the joists.

On the 1st floor of a 2 story building, it will take more labor if the ceiling is constructed of dimensional lumber, (2x12) rather than open web joists.

If the 2nd floor's ceiling is constructed of roof trusses then the labor on the 2nd floor will be less because it's faster to install wire running on top of the joists.

Material costs will vary for each contractor. The material costs that I used are simply a national average that a contractor can buy material for at their supply house.

Labor costs are not only different for each contractor but they can also be different for each project the contractor does. It depends on the manpower that will be manning the job. My example included the following:

1 Foreman with a vehicle - $33.48 per hour plus $19.80 per hour in burden

* Burden is the addition cost that you incur for a employee - FICA, FUTA, SUTA, workmans comp, general liability, health insurance, cell phones, etc. It also makes a difference on how many hours the employee will actually work during the year. This will allow you to calculated each employee's billable rate per hour. This will ensure that you get back enough money to pay for the employee's burden for the year.

1 Journeyman - $20.00 per hour plus $10.98 per hour in burden.

Additional labor can be different for each project. My example included the following:

1 hour for deliveries

1/2 hour per day for setting up the job in the morning and packing up at the end of the day

2 hours for meetings

1 hour for sweeping

1 hour per week for paperwork

Every job is unique. Maybe you need to add additional labor for driving time, temporary power, as-built plans, shop time, etc.

Misc. labor adjustments might need to be applied to a specific job for conditions such as weather (production can be affected when it is brutally cold as well brutally hot), job conditions, PITA factors, scaffolding, construction schedule, etc.

To account for overhead, my example used a calculation of 10% of the estimated prime cost.

Overhead will be different for each contractor. The cost to run a business includes rent, utilities, vehicles, advertising, legal, insurance, office personnel, supervision, etc. A contractor's volume makes a difference as to how much needs to be added to each job in order to make enough money back to cover their overhead.

All of the above determines what the break even cost is. Without knowing your breakeven cost, it's hard to determine the bid price.

My example included profit of 18% of the breakeven cost.

Profit percentage can differ based on numerous factors: How aggressive is the competition bidding? Who is the customer? Will they require you to be the lowest bid? (Often times contractors will go in with a low profit percentage in order to get in with a new customer. Once they have proven their value, they no longer need to be the lowest bid.) How bad does the contractor need cash flow?, etc.

I only spent 10 minutes putting together the estimate example so I am sure that there are details that were left out. The labor units that I used reflect manpower that knows what they are doing and are working at a fast and efficient manner every hour of every day.

I have attached another example of how the construction factors make a difference in labor costs.

RH1

10-11-2009, 02:25 PM

Here's what I came up with based on your info. It includes 159.9 hours which is right on per your comment of 2 guys for 10 days. The material pricing is based on a national average.

Ugh. Somebody needs a spell checker. That detail sheet is an abomination. Also, every electrician should know how to spell Fluorescent.

JES2727

10-11-2009, 04:24 PM

Ugh. Somebody needs a spell checker. That detail sheet is an abomination. Also, every electrician should know how to spell Fluorescent.

Seriously? Somebody puts a fair amount of effort into putting a whole bunch of helpful information up on the web, for free, and you slam him because of his spelling?? Wow.

Power Tech

10-11-2009, 04:44 PM

Ugh. Somebody needs a spell checker. That detail sheet is an abomination. Also, every electrician should know how to spell Fluorescent.

Your from LA, it is spelled: Electricin.:D

Power Tech

10-11-2009, 04:45 PM

Seriously? Somebody puts a fair amount of effort into putting a whole bunch of helpful information up on the web, for free, and you slam him because of his spelling?? Wow.

Spelling police are everywhere. Some call them pigs.:D

RH1

10-11-2009, 04:46 PM

Seriously? Somebody puts a fair amount of effort into putting a whole bunch of helpful information up on the web, for free, and you slam him because of his spelling?? Wow.

Down boy. First off, I am certain I know much more about this product than you do. Being as familiar with TurboBid as I am, I feel I am qualified to say that it is truly a masterpiece. Bill Ruffner is the only creator of estimating software that is an actual contractor and it shows. TurboBid is the best residential estimating program there is.

OK, let's now tackle the subject of spelling. I don't expect construction workers to appreciate the importance of correct spelling but I will adress this issue nonetheless.

Your claim that by pointing out the deplorable spelling in these reports that I am somehow "slamming" this product is nonsense. The fact that either you are incapable of recognizing misspelled words or do not care when you see misspelled words is really an issue to take up with your third grade teacher, not me. Nothing in my criticism "slammed" this product.

As an intelligent, well educated person, I am offended when I see poor grammar or misspelled words. When I see such things I immediately form a bad impression of the person or product I'm reading about. I deal with mouth breathing, knuckle dragging goons every day, I have very low expectations for them and expect a very low level of literacy from them. I have higher expectations for professional, commercial products.

Personally, I would be ashamed to post my work product on the internet and have it riddled with spelling errors.

The difference between you and I, JES2727, is that I am a proponent for high standards and proper spelling and grammar, and you are not. Congratulations.

RH1

10-11-2009, 04:47 PM

Your from LA, it is spelled: Electricin.:D

As you know, we spell it "Electri-Can". :grin:

satcom

10-11-2009, 04:55 PM

Seriously? Somebody puts a fair amount of effort into putting a whole bunch of helpful information up on the web, for free, and you slam him because of his spelling?? Wow.

I give him an A for writing up the report, he had no idea, that there would be someone on the site, that never made a mistake.

RH1

10-11-2009, 05:01 PM

I give him an A for writing up the report, he had no idea, that there would someone on the site, that never made a mistake.

Ahhhh, construction workers, they conduct themselves as if illiteracy were a virtue....

Bill Ruffner

10-11-2009, 07:55 PM

RH1,

Thank you for pointing out the misspelled words. I should have taken more time to check my spelling. Even though the program does not include a spell check feature, I should have taken the extra steps to ensure that my spelling and grammar were correct.

I agree that professional commercial products have a higher level of expectations. I will revisit the report in question and make the required corrections. I am always trying to improve TurboBid so if you have any other suggestions, please let me know.

Regards,

LarryFine

10-11-2009, 08:34 PM

The difference between you and I, JES2727, is that I am a proponent for high standards and proper spelling and grammar, and you are not. Congratulations.
To you, too. 8-) It should be "... between you and me, ..." and not "... between you and I, ..."

For the object of a preposition, you should use the objective "me", and not the subjective "I".

RH1

10-11-2009, 09:34 PM

To you, too. 8-) It should be "... between you and me, ..." and not "... between you and I, ..."

For the object of a preposition, you should use the objective "me", and not the subjective "I".

I suggest you check the Chicago Style Guide.

mikeames

10-11-2009, 09:44 PM

I suggest you check the Chicago Style Guide.
I agree with Larry.

The Chicago Style Guide, is just that style, not grammar. Same goes for MLA and all the other style guides.

The web is not always fact but here is a link that supports Larrys point.

http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/dictionaries/english/data/d0081645.html

RH1

10-11-2009, 10:10 PM

I agree with Larry.

The Chicago Style Guide, is just that style, not grammar. Same goes for MLA and all the other style guides.

The web is not always fact but here is a link that supports Larrys point.

http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/dictionaries/english/data/d0081645.html

You guys. :grin: Let's see what we have learned here today: To criticize a commercial product that costs over $1000 because it contains countless misspelled words will incite the ire of every construction worker on this forum. So much so that they will spend the rest of the day attacking the guy that pointed out this fact.

I'm wondering if they make a pill for whatever is wrong with you guys????

LOL

macmikeman

10-11-2009, 10:11 PM

Get with the times. Spelling and grammer have been replaced. What we have going on now is tweet language, which is a teenage bastardization of Hawaiian pidgin. In twenty years no one under 50 will know anything at all about how to spell and speak in proper English. Residential prices will still be at the same place as they are right now, due to undercutting and bid shopping by general contractors,

LarryFine

10-11-2009, 10:33 PM

I'm wondering if they make a pill for whatever is wrong with you guys????If only. :roll:

LarryFine

10-11-2009, 10:35 PM

In twenty years no one under 50 will know anything at all about how to spell and speak in proper English.And, with all the tattoos and pirecings they get these days, that's going to be one strange-looking generation of old folks. 8-)

RH1

10-11-2009, 10:50 PM

And, with all the tattoos and pirecings they get these days, that's going to be one strange-looking generation of old folks. 8-)

I'm waiting to see all the elderly women with their marvelous breast implants. Not! ;)

macmikeman

10-11-2009, 10:56 PM

Notice how I added one sentence at the end of my last post to keep it on track with the thread. It is more important to do that here than the other places where I mess things up. Residential prices and spelling are very important subjects, they go hand in hand.

RH1

10-11-2009, 11:42 PM

I'm gonna open up a bottle of Silver Oak Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon and enjoy a glass. After I read this thread about residential prices.

RonPecinaJr

10-11-2009, 11:56 PM

RH1

10-12-2009, 01:25 AM

I had a GC come up to me and ask me to give a "ballpark" price on a 2500 Sq footer the other day. Nothing special, really, 12-18 hi hats, a few ceiling fans, 200 amp service with copper and conduit.

Says his EC quoted it at $5700.

I told him I probably wouldn't be able to beat that price and that he'd be hard pressed to find a better price than that.

That's $2.28 per foot, that's pretty freak'n low. I love how GC's are always shopping bids around. They have no loyalty whatsoever. You could bend over backwards, do little things for free, really go the extra mile trying to improve customer retention, and they'll take your next bid and shop it all over town and if they can save $100, they'll forget they ever knew you.

Power Tech

10-12-2009, 10:06 AM

And, with all the tattoos and pirecings they get these days, that's going to be one strange-looking generation of old folks. 8-)

I do not understand why the next generation wants to look like a gang member or a convict.

Bill Ruffner

10-12-2009, 10:07 AM

We just did a house that size with more can lights for $20,000 and had $3000 in change orders, It wasn't near enough.

Hi James,

What size house are you referring to? 4,700 SF or 7,000 SF? I only ask because the OP changed from 7,000 SF down to 4,700 SF.

Also, how many hours did the job take you and what was your material cost?

PS. Regarding this whole spelling issue: While there are a few spelling errors in the detail report, I must take exception to it being called an abomination. Let's try to stay within the lines of common decency in constructive criticism and not paint an exaggerated mental picture where others might be led to form a false impression.

Regards,

Power Tech

10-12-2009, 10:34 AM

That's $2.28 per foot, that's pretty freak'n low. I love how GC's are always shopping bids around. They have no loyalty whatsoever. You could bend over backwards, do little things for free, really go the extra mile trying to improve customer retention, and they'll take your next bid and shop it all over town and if they can save $100, they'll forget they ever knew you.

Friend of mine asked me what to charge for 5 houses. I told him he is safe with $5 per ft., with no light fixtures supplied and everything else he described.

He just called me. He is on his 3rd house and said I'm making money but it isn't service work money like I'm used to. Moan and groan, well at least I'm staying busy but that's not enough.

Just lost a house to another shop, job went for $17,200, I was over $400. Done countless favors for these clowns, no more. As I have heard on this forum. Everybody pays from now on. No churchy, senior, friend, referral, discounts.

I'm getting grumpy in my old age.

RH1

10-12-2009, 10:51 AM

PS. Regarding this whole spelling issue: While there are a few spelling errors in the detail report, I must take exception to it being called an abomination. Let's try to stay within the lines of common decency in constructive criticism and not paint an exaggerated mental picture where others might be led to form a false impression.

Regards,

Well OK, but I'm well known for my ability to overstate matters using colorful phrases. :)

Power Tech

10-12-2009, 10:52 AM

About the spelling issue:

I think the english language is flawed, that is why there spelling bees. There no set rules, which brings it into memory trick realm. It has no bearing on true intelligence, practical intelligence, creative intelligence, and most likely successful intelligence.

IMO it is the thought that counts, I have learned many O trick from our brothers from the south.

I used to do pages of algebra in high school and was a bonehead in english.

My teacher in 5th grade asked me (about my spelling) what are you going to do when you get older?

I said, "I will push a button".

She said, "I should be a science fiction writer".

Mmm the word "SCIENCE" (i before e except for science?) Can't remember the fake rule.

It is easy to find fault, I can bag on anybody's work.

Remember, thinking clearly is not thinking.:D

RH1

10-12-2009, 11:07 AM

IMO it is the thought that counts, I have learned many O trick from our brothers from the south.

Over the last 5 years I've made learning Spanish a priority and now I'm pretty fluent. Learning another language has revealed to me just how difficult and problematic the English language is and why many Spanish speakers struggle with it.

The English language uses many Homonyms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homonym) and this makes learning it very frustrating.

Also our vowels can be pronounced many ways, this is not the case in Spanish.

JES2727

10-12-2009, 03:44 PM

Down boy. First off, I am certain I know much more about this product than you do. Being as familiar with TurboBid as I am, I feel I am qualified to say that it is truly a masterpiece. Bill Ruffner is the only creator of estimating software that is an actual contractor and it shows. TurboBid is the best residential estimating program there is.

OK, let's now tackle the subject of spelling. I don't expect construction workers to appreciate the importance of correct spelling but I will adress this issue nonetheless.

Your claim that by pointing out the deplorable spelling in these reports that I am somehow "slamming" this product is nonsense. The fact that either you are incapable of recognizing misspelled words or do not care when you see misspelled words is really an issue to take up with your third grade teacher, not me. Nothing in my criticism "slammed" this product.

As an intelligent, well educated person, I am offended when I see poor grammar or misspelled words. When I see such things I immediately form a bad impression of the person or product I'm reading about. I deal with mouth breathing, knuckle dragging goons every day, I have very low expectations for them and expect a very low level of literacy from them. I have higher expectations for professional, commercial products.

Personally, I would be ashamed to post my work product on the internet and have it riddled with spelling errors.

OK Einstein, so you know more about TurboBid than I do. So what? I didn't say you slammed the product. I said you slammed Bill Ruffner and his Detail Report that he posted, because you did. I found your comments to be condescending and rude. Also, please don't presume to know that I am incapable of recognizing poor spelling, or that I don't care about it. You'd be hard-pressed to find misspelled words in anything I write. Poor spelling and poor grammar drive me nuts. But I'm not "offended" by it, as you are. I am more offended by people who disregard someone's effort and make a point only to expose the weaknesses. That's disrespectful. The least you could have done was said " Hey Bill, nice work. By the way, there's some misspellings in it."

The difference between you and I, JES2727, is that I am a proponent for high standards and proper spelling and grammar, and you are not. Congratulations.

No, the difference between you and I, RH1, is that you are presumptuous, ignorant, rude, disrespectful, and inconsiderate. And I'm not.

LarryFine

10-12-2009, 05:00 PM

... the difference between you and I, ...You and ME!!! :grin:

RH1

10-12-2009, 05:27 PM

No, the difference between you and I, RH1, is that you are presumptuous, ignorant, rude, disrespectful, and inconsiderate. And I'm not.

I most certainly am not inconsiderate!

LarryFine

10-12-2009, 06:57 PM

I most certainly am not inconsiderate!
"Who's scruffy-looking?!" ~ Han Solo

bradleyelectric

10-12-2009, 07:10 PM

"Who's scruffy-looking?!" ~ Han Solo

As it turns out Luke and Princess Leia were actually brother and sister. And get this, the dark knight, Darth Vader, was their father! There ended up being another kid come after that, but I think he went bad.

fisherelectric

10-12-2009, 10:11 PM

Bill Ruffner: Thanks for taking the time to work up and post that bid. I believe your bid was $16365 and mine was $16000 so I guess I was in someones' ballpark. By the way, just to clarify things a little, where I'm at we don't run any service drops...just mount a meter can and run 2 4/0 Als into two MB panels. The POCO ties in the meter. I guess that has a substantial impact on costs compared to other regions where you all have to do otherwise. Also where I'm from all the electricians have impeccable spelling and grammar.

LarryFine

10-12-2009, 11:40 PM

Also where I'm from all the electricians have impeccable spelling and grammar.
Thenk yue!

quogueelectric

10-13-2009, 01:17 AM

rodneee

10-13-2009, 11:38 AM

200 amp urd
single circuits:
gas heat
micro
dw
sump
washer
40 amp ac
30 amp dryer
4 110v bbu smokes
3 110v bbu cmd
2 50 cfm bath fans
door chime
3 cat 5e phones
2 rg6 quad tv
arc fault per code
gfi per code
27 light jb's
30 sw
51 rec
3 wp rec
$500 fixture allow
$65 insp allow

4 bed 2.5 bath 2200 sq ft single family

Bill Ruffner

10-13-2009, 12:39 PM

Bill Ruffner: Thanks for taking the time to work up and post that bid.

You're welcome Fisherelectric.

Actually, the entertainment value derived from the following posts was well worth the effort.

In all seriousness, the dialog provided a valuable lesson. As an electrical contractor, I know the importance of submitting professional looking bid packages to my customers. I have no doubt that they judge me by the documents that I present to them. This is especially true of new customers. If they don't know me, the only thing that they have to judge me by is my bid package. They will assume that the quality of my work will match the quality of my bid package.

I honesty believe that we need to use our bid package to sell confidence.

When we submit professional looking, highly detailed proposals that leave no gray areas as to what is included, and/or excluded, our customers start to develop confidence in us.

I know that this is a point of contention to some, but if the customer has provided a blueprint, I also provide value engineering in my bid package. I give my customers a price per plan as well as a price for value engineering.

Value Engineering means that the electrical layout will provide the most cost-effective, yet code specific, layout possible. Devices are added to meet the requirements of the National Electrical Code (NEC) and all applicable local amendments. Devices are also eliminated and/or relocated in order to lower the cost while still maintaining the industry standard for electrical design. I want my customers to count on my expertise in this area. The architect is not their electrical contractor, I am. If I can lower their cost thru value engineering, I will have an advantage over my competition.

When we provide quantity take-offs that detail exactly what is being installed, we continue to increase confidence. I take it a step further and provide a room by room quantity take-off. For example:

Bedroom #2

1 Single Pole Toggle Switch

5 15A Duplex Receptacles

1 Smoke Detector

We should also provide a listing of standard option pricing that shows the prices that we will charge for standard items like switches, dimmers, can lights, etc. For example, if the customer decides to add some paddle fan outlets to the project after we have already signed a contract, they will know what we will charge them for the change order. (This also goes a long way toward increasing your margins since these individual prices will include higher profit margins than the original bid)

If you can provide this level of professionalism, with no spelling errors, your potential customers will have more confidence in you than what they have in your competition. The best part is that not only do you stand a better chance of being awarded the job, you won't have to be the lowest price. It's a fact that customers will pay more money to someone that they have confidence in!

I hope this gives some food for thought.

Regards,

RH1

10-13-2009, 12:53 PM

As it turns out Luke and Princess Leia were actually brother and sister. And get this, the dark knight, Darth Vader, was their father! There ended up being another kid come after that, but I think he went bad.

What about the Robinsons? Did they ever fix up the Jupiter II and get back to earth?
.
.
.

satcom

10-13-2009, 01:04 PM

You're welcome Fisherelectric.

Actually, the entertainment value derived from the following posts was well worth the effort.

In all seriousness, the dialog provided a valuable lesson. As an electrical contractor, I know the importance of submitting professional looking bid packages to my customers. I have no doubt that they judge me by the documents that I present to them. This is especially true of new customers. If they don't know me, the only thing that they have to judge me by is my bid package. They will assume that the quality of my work will match the quality of my bid package.

I honesty believe that we need to use our bid package to sell confidence.

If you can provide this level of professionalism, with no spelling errors, your potential customers will have more confidence in you than what they have in your competition. The best part is that not only do you stand a better chance of being awarded the job, you won't have to be the lowest price. It's a fact that customers will pay more money to someone that they have confidence in!

I hope this gives some food for thought.

Regards,

Good work, covering some of the issues in providing professional reports.

Thank you!

For many years we have built a customer base, built on the same methods.

bradleyelectric

10-13-2009, 09:43 PM

What about the Robinsons? Did they ever fix up the Jupiter II and get back to earth?
.
.
.

I don't know how it all worked out for them. Did we ever get that story or did they just go away in the end?

That was some interesting stuff Bill. Thanks for posting. I enjoyed seeing your breakout.

rwade0700

10-13-2009, 10:02 PM

Don't bid low because the GC says so and don't think that there will be more than one house to wire if you do . I have heard this one too many times and 99 percent of the time it is B.S.

flashlight

10-13-2009, 10:31 PM

Don't bid low because the GC says so and don't think that there will be more than one house to wire if you do . I have heard this one too many times and 99 percent of the time it is B.S.

Not a particularly religious guy, but AMEN !

macmikeman

10-14-2009, 03:01 AM

What about the Robinsons? Did they ever fix up the Jupiter II and get back to earth?
.
.
.

They all went back except for Doctor Smith who as usual missed the boat due to some of his zany larceny tactics

Sparky555

10-18-2009, 02:29 PM

Wow! Bill Ruffner!

One more reason to frequent Mike Holt's Forum. Very impressive work.

As for the spelling, fluorescent is a tough one. More important though is the fact that I'd never let a client see my bidding software. They see the contract with quantities listed, not the breakdown. For my in-house bid sheet I could care less about a spelling error.

RH1

10-18-2009, 05:41 PM

They all went back except for Doctor Smith who as usual missed the boat due to some of his zany larceny tactics

Yeah, Dr. Smith was almost as useless as the Robot. All the Robot could to was wave his arms and whine "Danger! Danger! Danger!". They would have been better served with a Pit Bull.

LarryFine

10-18-2009, 07:39 PM

Yeah, Dr. Smith was almost as useless as the Robot. All the Robot could to was wave his arms and whine "Danger! Danger! Danger!". They would have been better served with a Pit Bull.Did you know the movie's website is (or was) www.dangerwillrobinson.com ?

hurk27

10-18-2009, 08:32 PM

Did you know the movie's website is (or was) www.dangerwillrobinson.com ?

or you could buy one: http://www.lostinspacerobot.com/

dlhoule

11-06-2009, 08:21 AM

Also where I'm from all the electricians have impeccable spelling and grammar.

Gee, it is great to hear from someone who must already be in Heaven. Once upon a time, I could read a newspaper and find correct spelling and grammar.

dexterg

11-06-2009, 08:52 AM

here in this area (San Antonio, TX) it would be in the 18k-20 range generally speaking......good builder, not much travel time, good help

LarryFine

11-06-2009, 10:57 AM

Once upon a time, I could read a newspaper and find correct spelling and grammar.Did you know that the target of newspaper writing is a 6th grade reading level?

George Breuninger

11-06-2009, 04:13 PM

:confused:I worked up an estimate based on the information provided. Assuming the basement is finished my bid would of been a little higher than yours. It is tough out there now. For a year or more it seem's that 4 or 5 electricians are all close on a bid and then one electrician comes in 25 or 30% lower and he get's the job. Very frustrating! I spend alot of time creating an accurate estimate.

formula1

11-06-2009, 07:02 PM

this is deffinately more like it 16k for a 1.2 million house someone is making money here and not the subs.